National Insurance Contributions (Secondary Class 1 Contributions) Bill

Baroness Barker Excerpts

Report stage
Tuesday 25th February 2025 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Barker]

1: Clause 1, page 1, line 1, at end insert—
“(A1) In section 9(1A) of the Social Security Contributions and Benefits Act 1992, after paragraph (aa) insert—“(ab) if the employer is a specified employer under subsection (1B), the specified employer secondary percentage;”.(A2) After section 9(1A) of that Act insert—“(1B) A “specified employer” means—(a) a person providing a care home service or a domiciliary support service who is regulated under—(i) Part 1 of the Health and Social Care Act 2008,(ii) Part 1 of the Regulation and Inspection of Social Care (Wales) Act 2016, or(iii) Part 5 of the Public Services Reform (Scotland) Act 2010,(b) a person contracted to provide primary care under the provisions of—(i) Part 4 of the National Health Service Act 2006,(ii) Part 4 of the National Health Service (Wales) Act 2006, or(iii) sections 17J to 17O of the National Health Service (Scotland) Act 1978,(c) a person contracted to provide general dental services under the provisions of Part 2 of the National Health Service (General Dental Services) Regulations 1992, (d) a person contracted to provide pharmacy services under the provisions of—(i) Part 7 of the National Health Service Act 2006, or(ii) Part 8 of the NHS (Pharmaceutical and Local Pharmaceutical Services) Regulations 2013, or(e) a charitable provider of health and care,(f) a person providing hospice care whether in a hospice or elsewhere, or(g) a carer to whom section 2(3A) of the National Insurance Contributions Act 2014 applies.(1C) For the purposes of this Act, the specified employer secondary percentage is 13.8%.””Member's explanatory statement
This amendment, together with Baroness Barker’s amendments to Clause 2, page 1, line 12, Clause 2, page 1, line 14, and Clause 2, page 1, line 15 provides that care providers, NHS GP practices, NHS commissioned dentists, NHS commissioned pharmacists, charitable providers of health and care, and those providing hospice care would continue to pay contributions at current rates.

[Baroness Barker (LD)]

My Lords, it may be a surprise that I stand up to take part in proceedings at this point, having not taken part in the Bill so far. I do so because my noble friend Lord Scriven is unable to be here. Indeed, my only involvement in the Bill so far was to be the chair when it was in the early stages of its consideration in Grand Committee. I was therefore forced to remain sedentary and say nothing throughout the proceeding. It was very good, actually: I sat and listened to everybody else’s contributions, and that turned out to be excellent preparation for today’s debate, in which I seek to move Amendment 1 and to speak to the consequential amendments in this area.

As noble Lords who have taken part in and listened in great detail to previous stages of the Bill will know, the central issue that the amendments are having to address is the sudden imposition of a rather blunt fiscal instrument, in the form of an increase not only to national insurance contributions but to the rate at which they are paid, and the effects that that will have across the whole economy. These amendments address just one part of that wider problem.

I should at the outset declare an interest: in my family, we are reliant upon carers. We pay for those carers ourselves, and do so through a private agency. This issue is therefore not academic for me but very personal at the moment.

I should also say that before your Lordships today there is a manuscript amendment, for which we thank the clerks for their consideration. This is a tax matter which is UK-wide, but it has effects, which the amendments tabled so far seek to mitigate, in England and Northern Ireland. Noble Lords may well have been contacted by care providers in Scotland who will need similar provisions to enable them to cope with the problems.

The problem we are dealing with is that, in the health and social care sector, the sudden imposition of these changes to national insurance, along with the increases in the minimum wage, are going to threaten the existence of large numbers of providers and have a profound impact on budgets.

We have a real problem in that the health and social care sector is not solely a statutory one. We have a number of different providers, many of which are small but are related to large statutory providers. Unfortunately, because of the swift nature of the imposition of this rather dramatic change, we are having to come up with ways in which we can mitigate the damaging impact, which means we have had to resort to measures that perhaps we would not otherwise have wanted to take, in seeking to create different classes of employers.

The Government have come forward with some of their public sector exemptions because they realise the effect that this is likely to have. But those exemptions will not apply across the board. In particular, they will not apply to the organisations set out in these amendments, such as dentists, pharmacists, providers of care services and hospices, all of which are central to the Government’s other stated policy objective of improving health and of improving the health service and making it a community-based and more preventive service, thereby driving down demand on our health service, which is the greatest problem our NHS is facing at the moment. Because the Bill does not do that—indeed, it cuts across those other policy objectives—we have been forced to take these measures.

It would perhaps help noble Lords if I were to explain that 87% of a typical local authority’s budget spend is now on social care. That expenditure is not capital heavy; it is labour heavy and labour intensive. These are not organisations, unlike some of their private sector counterparts, that can suddenly adjust and vary their income streams to a dramatic extent that will enable them to mitigate rapidly or absorb the effects of the imposition of this policy.

I listened very carefully in Committee to all the arguments put to my noble friend Lord Scriven, and he and I, and others, went away and redrafted our amendments in order to take on board as many of those criticisms as we could. We have extended the remit of these amendments as far as we possibly can to include private sector providers of NHS services. I agree that there is not the exact equivalence between the private and public sectors that many people would want, but it is, within the scope of this measure, a significant step forward. We did that not least because one of the consequences, perhaps unintended, of the government proposals as they stand is that they will disproportionately affect local authorities that have for prudent reasons sought to outsource much of their provision. If their provision is outsourced, they will be hit and will have no mitigation against this change in national insurance.

I sat and thought about this the other night. You could have a realistic situation in which you have two local authorities that have broadly the same demographic profile and challenges, and that probably work to the same acute hospital, yet they could be in a completely different position in terms of their budget, solely because of the imposition of this measure.

We on these Benches have been quite clear. We have said that we understand that there is a need to increase funding, not least for health and social care. We believe there are other ways in which that could have been done—by closing capital gains loopholes and doing things such as taxing online gambling and taxing share buybacks.

There are a number of ways in which that could be done, and none of them would have the direct counter-effect on policy of changing and moving our National Health Service away from being a very inefficient organisation which does not at the moment have a system which works towards greater productivity, promoting health and driving down demand. For all those reasons, we are proposing these amendments today, and I hope that noble Lords will see the case to support them. I beg to move.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Haskel) (Lab)]

My Lords, I must inform the House that if Amendment 1 is agreed, I am unable to call Amendments 6, 7 or 9 by reason of pre-emption.

--- Later in debate ---

The noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, raised the question of impact assessments. As we discussed at length in Grand Committee, HMRC has published a tax information and impact note, and the OBR has set out the macroeconomic impacts of the Bill. Ultimately, though—I say this, in part, in response to the point by the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh of Pickering, about adding additional sectors—the Bill is necessary to fund public services, and the proposals contained in these amendments would, as my noble friend Lord Eatwell said, put much of that funding at risk. They would require either higher borrowing, lower spending or alternative revenue-raising measures. In light of this, I respectfully ask the noble Baroness to withdraw her amendment.

[Baroness Barker (LD)]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this debate, including the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell; I disagree with him, but he raised an important point. It is entirely wrong to characterise the amendments as “blunderbuss” and “scattergun”. We are dealing with a very crude fiscal measure that will impact all sorts of sectors in different ways. The amendments, on the contrary, are not; they are very targeted and precise, and they are different attempts to mitigate the overall problem.

My amendments are confined solely to health and social care. One of the issues I am driving at in them is that, for all the announcements of increases in funding, particularly those for the NHS that the Minister just laid out for us, the question of productivity and sustainability of public services is very important. A key aspect of this is driving down demand on the NHS. The work done by many of these organisations, if it is correctly funded and targeted, will lead in future to a lower demand for elective surgery in the NHS. We are not a “blunderbuss” at all; we are trying to be very precise about what we are doing.

Secondly, perhaps it is not particularly obvious but a number of noble Lords might understand this: thousands of people in this country continue to be able to work because their family members are looked after by these organisations. This is a question not just about the cost of public services; it is about the indirect costs to the economy of taking people out of other productive jobs in order to sustain their family members.

Finally, many of the services that I and other people are trying to maintain are comparatively inexpensive. A lot of them rely on volunteers, and they are much less expensive than acute public services. For all those reasons, this is important. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Ahmad: I do not think we have had an adequate impact assessment of the Bill. If we had, perhaps we would have been able to take on more of what the Minister was indicating. I think he does not get that these are not wrecking amendments. They are about trying to improve the nation’s health, well-being and finances as a whole. In view of all that, I wish to test the opinion of the House.

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Baroness Barker]

9A: Clause 1, page 1, line 3, at end insert—
“(1A) The Social Security Contributions and Benefits (Northern Ireland) Act 1992 is amended as follows.(1B) In section 9(1A) after paragraph (aa) insert—“(ab) if the employer is a specified employer under subsection (1B), the specified employer secondary percentage;”.(1C) After section 9(1A) insert—“(1B) A “specified employer” means—(a) a person providing a care home service or domiciliary support service regulated under the Health and Personal Social Services (Quality, Improvement and Regulation) (Northern Ireland) Order 2003,(b) a person providing primary medical services through contractual arrangements with a Health and Social Services Board,(c) a person providing general dental services under Part 2 of the General Dental Services (Northern Ireland) Regulations 1993,(d) a person providing pharmaceutical services under Part 2 of the Pharmaceutical Services Regulations (Northern Ireland) 1997,(e) a provider of health and care registered as a charity by the Charity Commission for Northern Ireland, or(f) a person providing hospice care whether in a hospice or elsewhere.(1C) For the purposes of this Act, the specified employer secondary percentage is 13.8%.””

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Baroness Barker]

10: Clause 2, page 1, line 12, after “£96” insert “or,
(b) for a specified employer under section 9(1B) of the Social Security Contributions and Benefits Act 1992, £175.”Member's explanatory statement
This amendment, together with Baroness Barker’s amendments to Clause 1, page 1, line 2, Clause 2, page 1, line 14, and Clause 2, page 1, line 15 exempts care providers, NHS GP practices, NHS commissioned dentists, NHS commissioned pharmacists, charitable providers of health and care, and those providing hospice care from the changes to the threshold.

National Insurance Contributions (Secondary Class 1 Contributions) Bill

Baroness Barker Excerpts

Report stage
Tuesday 25th February 2025 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Barker]

16: Clause 2, page 1, line 14, after “substitute” insert—
“(i) for a specified employer under section 9(1B) of the Social Security Contributions and Benefits Act 1992, £758, and(ii) in all other cases,”Member's explanatory statement
This amendment is linked to Baroness Barker’s amendments to Clause 1, page 1, line 2, Clause 2, page 1, line 12, and Clause 2, page 1, line 15.

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Baroness Barker]

23: Clause 2, page 1, line 15, after “substitute” insert—
“(i) for a specified employer under section 9(1B) of the Social Security Contributions and Benefits Act 1992 or section 9(1B) of the Social Security Contributions and Benefits (Northern Ireland) Act 1992, £9,100, and(ii) in all other cases,”Member's explanatory statement
This amendment is linked to Baroness Barker’s amendments to Clause 1, page 1, line 2, Clause 2, page 1, line 12, and Clause 2, page 1, line 14.

Complications from Abortions (Annual Report) Bill [HL]

Baroness Barker Excerpts

2nd reading
Friday 13th December 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Barker (LD)]

My Lords, I am going to take the opportunity to explain the context of the Bill and say what it is really about. In doing so, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, for yet again giving me the opportunity to draw your Lordships’ attention to the right-wing, nationalist, countergender campaign which this Bill and his previous foetal sentience Bill are a part of. We have known for some time that there is an international campaign which has an overriding strategic objective of getting rid of human rights legislation and the organisations responsible for upholding it.

On a tactical level, it has a number of objectives: anti-LGBT campaigning—with a particular emphasis in this country on anti-trans work; anti-sex and relationships education, because the state should have no part in teaching people’s children about sex and relationships; anti-surrogacy, and particularly anti-abortion. People may have read or seen, most notably, the campaigns in places such as Hungary and Poland. It is all about a campaign to restore the natural order—a selective reading and interpretation of biblical order.

When I have said that in this Chamber before, Members of your Lordships’ House have thrown the jibe, “Well, that sounds like a conspiracy theory”. Well, it is not actually, and we have some growing evidence to that effect. I encourage all noble Lords to read Project 2025—it is a very easy and clear read. It says what the organisations behind it, such as the Heritage Foundation, the Alliance Defending Freedom and big supporters of the Conservative Party in this country have as their agenda for the Trump Administration. It is all backed up by billions of dollars going to Africa and billions of dollars coming to Europe including to the UK. It is a campaign which has evolved, just as the anti-abortion campaign has evolved from rather crude demonstrations outside abortion clinics; it has now gone into a slightly different phase. It is now setting up independent universities and colleges; it is producing research evidence; it talks using the language of rights, but all the conclusions go back to that same overall objective. It is very clever, very well organised and brilliantly messaged, but it is what it is: it is a very cynical anti-gender campaign about destroying human rights.

This Bill is an insidious part of that campaign. It is about challenging the medical evidence that does not suit its campaign objectives. I, like other people on my side of the argument, am all in favour of collection and improvement of data. What I am not in favour of is the corruption of medical science by the production of data for a purpose. That, I suggest, is the ultimate aim of the Bill in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Moylan. Therefore, I hope that noble Lords will not be taken in by this, will see it for what it is and work with people such as those at the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists who want to improve the data and to make sure that our services are safe for women.

Conversion Therapy Prohibition (Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity) Bill [HL]

Baroness Barker Excerpts

Friday 9th February 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Barker (LD)]

My Lords, this Bill addresses an abuse that has long been acknowledged. The noble Baroness, Lady Buscombe, asked us to think about the history surrounding this issue, but I would like to suggest that we should consider the context in which this debate is happening. It is against the backdrop of an international campaign to roll back women’s rights and LGBT equality. The ultimate purpose of this campaign is to eradicate human rights. It is a campaign that we see every day in our media as trans people are daily depicted as being somehow unacceptable.

Today we are debating a specific measure about outlawing a particular practice: conversion therapy. There is a need for this measure. It is needed, first, because, despite many noble Lords saying that existing legislation covers different practices, we know from individuals that these abuses go on. Not only do these abuses go on, but they continue in two places of specific importance—within religious settings and within psychotherapeutic and counselling settings. These are two places in which people are particularly vulnerable. It is for that reason that I think my noble friend’s Bill is an important contribution.

The noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, derided the testimony of people who have been through this and said that it was not proper evidence. She said that we must wait for there to be random controlled trials. There will be no random controlled trial in which those who have been subject to abuse are compared with those who have not been. No ethics committee would ever agree to such a thing. We have to rely on the testimony of individuals and I think that we should believe them.

Secondly, there is a need because the profession of counsellors and psychotherapists is one in which it is difficult to have regulation. My noble friend Lord Alderdice has been trying for over a decade to bring about an agreement on regulation in that field and he has not succeeded. Therefore, anybody can set themselves up as a therapist. That being the case, it is necessary for us to make sure that these practices are not there to be used abusively towards individuals.

Thirdly, on religious organisations, it is important that we recognise that religious organisations can believe what they like and say what they like. To a large extent, they can do what they like in a furtherance of those beliefs, provided that they do not cause harm. That is where my noble friend Lady Burt’s Bill is trying to draw the line. Many people will benefit from that, not least the majority of members of religious organisations and faiths who wish to be free of allegations of abuse. The profession of their faith does not depend on causing harm to other people; they would never countenance it. Many of them wish to be dissociated from this and not be tarnished with these practises.

Finally, on freedom of speech, individuals remain free to think what they like. They can say what they like. Individuals are free to hate LGBT people. Individuals are quite able to say that we do not deserve to have equality in society. That will continue to be the case. They can even pray for us not to have equality. But noble Lords have to understand—as we have done in other circumstances, particularly when we have argued the case for safe access to abortion—that there are times and occasions when prayer has been weaponised as a political tool. Therefore, we need to question some of the assumptions about the actors in these religious organisations always being benign.

All this Bill seeks to do is to make sure, particularly in situations where individuals are vulnerable, that they are not subject to abuse. We know from history that the psychiatric profession can be open to abuse and political manipulation. All we are trying to do in this Bill is to prevent those excesses and to make sure that everybody, no matter who they are, is safe.

Minister for Equalities

Baroness Barker Excerpts

Thursday 20th October 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Barker (LD)]

Can the Minister tell the House whether the Government base their equalities policy on evidence or, as the Prime Minister does, on campaigns run by certain groups following a distinct ideology against women?

[Baroness Stedman-Scott (Con)]

As far as I am concerned, evidence is the only thing on which to base a decision. My understanding is that that is the position of the Government.

Elections Bill

Baroness Barker Excerpts

Lords Hansard - Part 1 & Committee stage
Thursday 17th March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Barker (LD)]

My Lords, yet again I support the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts. I share his view that it is good for charitable and voluntary organisations and campaign groups to be involved in civic activities. There should be full transparency around their involvement.

I do not disagree in any way with his suggestion. I would make it a condition of registration with the Charity Commission that an organisation should have a website. Certain things would have to be on that website, such as accounts and a copy of the organisation’s governing documents, precisely so that people could find out basic information about who was behind the entity. But why confine this to a website? Why not have it on a Facebook page or a Twitter handle, for example? I think the noble Lord is coming at an issue that is of growing importance and much bigger than this Bill.

I have started to talk to a number of the regulators, including the Fundraising Regulator, about what is an organisation. It is now quite common for campaign entities to be described as an organisation when they are nothing more than a Facebook page. They may be crowdfunded, but they do not have to produce accounts or show who or what their membership is. They do not have to show their governing documents. They are simply a presence. They can exert quite considerable influence in political campaigning—not necessarily as yet in election campaigning, perhaps, though I bow to others who have greater knowledge about this.

It is certainly a growing phenomenon in campaigning on political issue—one that I think regulators will have to start discussing. Indeed, I know that these discussions are beginning. I was talking to a regulator the other day about how they deal with a very prominent campaign, Insulate Britain, its fundraising activities on a platform and whether they were or were not compliant. This issue is starting to emerge. All sorts of people are having to work through it for the first time.

In this spirt, I ask what might seem a bit of an “anoraky” question of the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbots. He and I are entitled to be the anoraks on this subject in this House. Small and technical though the question may be, I think it is potentially of growing importance in the time to come.

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbots, for his introduction. As I am sure Members of this House are aware, new digital tools and channels have significantly changed the campaigning landscape in the UK during the last decade. This includes the use of organisational websites.

Unfortunately, concerns about the transparency of some websites that have been set up for political campaigning are starting to have an impact on public trust and confidence in campaigns. The amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, seeks to address this further. We support his aim in doing so.

Following the 2019 general election, the Electoral Commission said that it had been contacted by people who had been concerned about misleading campaign techniques from across the political spectrum, including on websites. It received a large number of complaints, raising concerns about presentation, tone and content.

Transparency is incredibly important. We are pleased that this is addressed later in the Bill. In the Electoral Commission’s research after the 2019 election, nearly three-quarters of people surveyed agreed that it was important for them to know who produced political information that they saw online. Fewer than one-third agreed that they could find out who produced it. Again, it is important that the amendment talks about having the information on the website in a prominent position, not tucked away and hidden.

The Electoral Commission’s research also confirmed that transparency about who was behind political campaigns was important. Nearly three-quarters of those questioned—72%—agreed that they needed to know who produced the information they were looking at online, including on a website. Unfortunately, fewer than one-third—29%—agreed that they could find out who had produced that information.

As the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, has said, this is a simple amendment, but we also agree this is an important small change. The more transparency we can provide when people are looking online during general or local elections, the better. The noble Baroness, Lady Barker, said it was a good thing that civic organisations are involved in electoral campaigning. Of course it is. I am sure we all agree with that. But that does bring issues around transparency as part of how campaigning on websites is managed. I do not imagine everyone is going to be deliberately hiding information, but perhaps they do not even think about the importance of providing it.

Elections Bill

Baroness Barker Excerpts

Lords Hansard - Part 2 & Committee stage
Tuesday 15th March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Khan of Burnley (Lab)]

My Lords, I shall speak to Amendments 31B, 32 and 32A in this group in the names of my noble friends Lady Hayman of Ullock and Lord Collins of Highbury. Amendments 31B and 32 relate to Clause 22, which prohibits an entity registering as both a political party and a third party, which would allow them to access multiple spending limits. I cannot see any reason to oppose this, which would remove a loophole from the level playing field—those words which have been so often mentioned—and maintain the integrity of the existing system.

In the debate on this clause in the other House, a Minister explained that this change was necessary after an entity registered as both during the 2019 general election, therefore abusing the system. Can the Minister confirm which party this was?

Specifically, Amendment 31B intends to probe the application of this clause to minor parties. While we can assume that major political parties, which tend to have governance units, will be aware of these new changes and will be very unlikely to register in both classifications, we should consider whether the same can be said for minor parties. This brings me to Amendment 32, which is intended to probe how the Government will inform third parties of the impact of this section. On the first day in Committee my noble friend Lady Hayman of Ullock touched on the importance of consultation, and I ask the Minister what consultation there has been on informing third parties of the impact of this section. In particular, I ask about impact assessments on this section. Consultation is particularly important for this Bill. Many of the groups which fall within the definition of third parties can be considered minor organisations which also may not have the necessary structures.

Amendment 32A touches on a similar subject of informing involved parties but relates instead to Clause 23. This clause deals with transitional provision for groups which appear on both registers and would permit them to spend only in one capacity.

I understand that the Minister has been very kind and has had discussions on these matters with my noble friends, but I really hope he can confirm what plans the Government have to involve, engage and inform the relevant parties, and we would really welcome further discussion on this matter. I beg to move.

[Baroness Barker (LD)]

My Lords, I will follow up on the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Khan. It is quite puzzling to see how extensive a problem it could be to have entities registered as both political parties and third parties. Indeed, when the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, did his review of the legislation governing third-party campaigning, he said specifically that he did not see this as a significant problem.

I would like to ask the Minister when he comes to reply whether that situation has changed because of the increase in digital campaigning and therefore ask how this would be monitored and enforced. Whose responsibility would it be? Presumably it would be the Electoral Commission’s, but would it require a new set of digital enforcement measures that it has not had previously?

The other issue that I would like to probe is what engagement there will be with entities that might fall into this category. It is not at all clear to me from the Bill where this proposal has come from and how it is envisaged it will work. I think there is considerable concern among non-party campaigners out there which are small entities that they might fall foul of this when not doing anything intentionally wrong. It would be very helpful if the Minister could tell us the extent of the problem that has led to this having to be put into primary legislation.

[The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Lord True) (Con)]

I thank noble Lords who have contributed to this short debate. Our view is that no group or individual should have access to multiple spending limits at an election. Spending limits exist to ensure that there is a level playing field, a concept that I think we have agreed on already in this Committee, and any opportunities to unfairly expand spending limits should be removed.

The noble Lord opposite asked about specific examples. What is propelling the legislation is principle but, obviously, there is the case from the 2019 UK parliamentary general election when a group claimed that it could do that—that is, expand spending limits by registering both as a political party and as a third-party campaigner. The organisation that we have in mind is Advance Together, which was used to sidestep election spending rules. It registered both as a political party and as a third-party campaigner, effectively to double its spending limits. I do not want to go too deeply into the motivations there, but that organisation ran negative attack campaigns against incumbent MPs who were supporters of Brexit in five target constituencies. It was mainly staffed by former Liberal Democrats seeking to stop Brexit. Indeed, they admitted on Twitter:

“Our candidates are there to be tactical. Not to win.”


Whatever the politics, this was a clear abuse of third-party local spending limits, which are limited to £700 per constituency under the RPA. That dual registration leap-frogged the £700 third-party spending limit in the constituency, allowing the third party to spend the higher candidate limit locally, and obviously to benefit from the national third-party spending thresholds. It is hard to believe that many groups would wish to circumvent the rules in this way, but I think noble Lords would agree that it is probably best to be prudent in this regard.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Barker (LD)]

My Lords, at this late stage, I want to thank the noble Baroness for her introduction. I do not intend to repeat many of the points that she put forward, which were entirely valid.

The history of legislation in this area over the past 20 years is of fundamentally confused aims which are compounded over time and, particularly these days, are exaggerated by new forms of digital campaigning. It becomes increasingly difficult to achieve the stated aims of the legislation, which is to understand who exactly is undertaking campaigning, how they are doing it and where their funding is coming from. Until such time as we sort out some of the points that the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, directed us towards, about what legitimate advocacy is and what party-political campaigning is, we will never sort this out entirely.

At every stage of this legislation, we have to ask what problem it is supposed to be answering. Do you know what? It is never very clear. That is a fundamental problem. My understanding of Clauses 24 and 25 is that they try to limit third-party campaigning to specific UK-based bodies and therefore to stop foreign interference. I am not entirely sure about that. As somebody who spent an awful lot of time in the charity world, I look very carefully at the description of entities. The Explanatory Note for Clause 24 states that it

“inserts new section 89A(1) of PPERA, which will prevent any third party from incurring controlled expenditure (including notional expenditure) during a regulated period, unless it is either eligible to register under section 88(2) of PPERA or an unincorporated association with the requisite UK connection”.

Does “unincorporated association” mean a charitable entity? What does “requisite UK connection” mean? Does it mean registered as a charity in the United Kingdom or not? As the noble Baroness said, under Clause 25, the Electoral Commission has something that we might welcome; that is, an ability to stop whole classes of organisations or entities registering, but, at the moment, we do not know what they are or what they might be. If we did, we might agree, but there is something about the way in which this is all written that is unclear.

That leads us on to the key problem that that creates, which is how the Electoral Commission or the police will enforce this, particularly if it is entities of an uncertain nature outside the United Kingdom. It sets up yet another problem. I would therefore welcome it if the Minister could unpick all that and explain to us precisely what is going on here and what it is that we are trying to sort out.

[Lord Stunell (LD)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman of Ullock, very generously attributed to us two items of business on this string that were actually submitted primarily by her colleague, the noble Lord, Lord, Collins—that is Amendment 45A—and herself in respect of opposing the Question on Clause 24. I refer to page 8 and 9 of the second Marshalled List of amendments to support the validity of the counterclaim I am making.

The intention to oppose the question of Clause 24 was tabled in the name of the noble Baronesses, Lady Hayman of Ullock and Lady Meacher, who is in her place and may well want to speak to that proposition. All I wanted to say at this stage is that the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, has opened up the big questions that lurk in relation to Clause 25. We will very certainly and definitely want to return to that, and we have stated our intention to oppose the Question that Clause 25 stand part of the Bill. But that is clearly not part of this string, and I think we will be resuming discussion on that at another time.

My noble friend Lady Barker has quite rightly pointed at the fog that surrounds the intended purpose of Clauses 24 and 25, and the lack of what I would describe as a credible justification for the alterations proposed in these two clauses, particularly in relation to Clause 24, seeing as that is the one that is in front of us at the moment. My noble friend Lady Barker pointed out some of the questions that arise from that. My understanding—maybe the Minister in replying could confirm it—is that an unincorporated association would, for instance, include an organisation which I believe is called the West Midlands Industrialists, which channels funds directly to the Conservative Party—entirely legitimately; I am not suggesting anything different. An unincorporated association could be a trade association, formal or informal; it could be some kind of NGO; it could just be an informal grouping that has got its constitution together. It is an entirely separate issue whether they are legitimate bodies to be funding elections—but the law as it stands says that that is legitimate. Except insofar as deleting Clause 24 might form part of the agenda for the rest of this evening, there is no proposal before us to change that. But I think we should perhaps ask the Minister if he or she can rehearse the unincorporated associations question, so we can understand, perhaps a bit more fully, what we will in essence eventually finish up this evening by nodding through. With that, I defer to the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, who I am sure will want to speak on Clause 24.

Elections Bill

Baroness Barker Excerpts

Lords Hansard - Part 2 & Committee stage
Thursday 10th March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Barker (LD)]

My Lords, I have the great privilege of being a member of the Select Committee chaired by the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, which considered citizenship and civic engagement in 2018 and has recently reconvened to look at the matter again. Largely with that in mind, I support Amendment 7, in particular. Bad as this Bill is in many ways, we have to treat it from the standpoint that, somehow, it could be a mechanism to improve representation, participation and the understanding of the electoral process by wider society.

The reason why it is important that civil society organisations be evidently included is that they do something unique. They represent people who are not in Parliament—all sorts of diverse and minority communities: precisely the people who are not engaged, and consequently not represented. We have already begun to see the beneficial effects of the Government talking to civic society organisations in the preparation of the Bill. I would make a case similar to that which the noble Lord, Lord Collins, made for trade unions, and say that we should be unafraid of including those groups in the development of the statement for the Electoral Commission.

One group of civil society organisations that we might think about are those concerned with citizenship, such as Young Citizens or the Association for Citizenship Teaching, organisations which exist with the primary purpose of improving the knowledge of future generations and their engagement and involvement in the electoral process. That is a thoroughly commendable thing and by including it in this Bill, we would not be doing anything that would in any way inhibit the Secretary of State or damage the process. This would be a small but valuable addition to the Bill.

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I always have some empathy with the noble Lord opposite, who I greatly respect, when he speaks of Labour tradition, the tradition of working people and social traditions. My mother’s grandfather and his family were brought up in Salford and teeming parts of Manchester, and the education they had that led them to improve their lives and secure some degree of prosperity came through the mechanics’ institutes and institutions created by civil society with a good social instinct. So I understand what the noble Lord says and how he feels. I also understand how the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, feels when she speaks about civil society.

These amendments propose extending statutory consultation to specific groups, however defined. As the Bill stands, the consultation process provided in Clause 14 will already ensure that the statement will be subject, where applicable, to some statutory consultation with key stakeholders, including the Electoral Commission, the Speaker’s Committee on the Electoral Commission and the Levelling Up, Housing and Communities Committee. If the amendments your Lordships agreed earlier and are about to agree are agreed by the House of Commons, those institutions and bodies would be involved before the draft statement is submitted for the approval of Parliament.

The Secretary of State and officials will hear what has been said, but of course, the Secretary of State is not limited to consulting with only those bodies in considering legislation. I am grateful for what the noble Baroness said about reaching out to civil society. Government Ministers regularly engage with relevant stakeholders across civil society—I am sure that will continue—and a wide range of views can be considered by the Secretary of State when preparing a draft statement. I remind the Committee that the Secretary of State concerned is the one who bears responsibility for local government. Obviously, there is a particular, constant and important engagement between their department and local government. I understand the meaning and sense of the amendment asking for local government to be consulted, but that is, if you like, a standing counterparty of that department.

In addition, both Houses of Parliament play an important role in allowing for the views of wider society; your Lordships’ House is admirable in that. This already ensures that groups such as those noted in these amendments, including trade unions—which never lack a powerful voice in this House, notably from the noble Lord opposite—will be adequately represented through Parliament in scrutinising any draft statement. Additionally, the Speaker’s Committee on the Electoral Commission, which is a statutory consultee, is a cross-party group of MPs and that will further allow for representation of the views of different parts of the electorate.

So, while understanding the spirit in which these amendments are advanced and certainly giving the assurance that the Government are not limited to consulting only those bodies listed in the Bill, I urge that the amendments be withdrawn or not moved.

Elections Bill

Baroness Barker Excerpts

2nd reading
Wednesday 23rd February 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Barker (LD)]

My Lords, electoral law is perhaps a somewhat arcane topic, but it often defines a society because it tells us who are regarded as being citizens with power in a particular society. Electoral law can also define a Government. The Government of Earl Grey in 1830 was known as a reforming Government. It brought in the Great Reform Act 1832, which extended the franchise. I wonder what, in years to come, people will make of this legislation brought in by this Government, contrary to much of the evidence and research quoted extensively tonight.

I will confine myself to two points in this short speech. Much of what the noble Lord, Lord True, said could be described as, “This is the Government making great efforts to extend our democracy.” I have spent quite a bit of time, with the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson of Ashley Abbotts, looking at citizenship and civic engagement. Back in 2017 and 2018, we looked extensively at the work done by government to extend citizenship education in schools. We have recently looked at it again, and, in truth, we do very little to ensure that children leave school with the most basic knowledge of how to participate as active citizens in this country. We have a low basis of teacher training, and we have no cross-governmental responsibility for ensuring that we have professional teachers qualified to teach this.

While we are quite happy to pay lip-service in legislation such as this, we are unwilling to look at what we need to do to equip our citizens to participate fully, not just in terms of their personal social development but to acknowledge how they play an active part in the decision-making of society.

My second point is about voter ID and voter registration. There is a correlation between those of us who are members of minority groups and who have often had problems and been questioned about our identity and the equanimity, or lack of it, with which we approach the Bill. It is not until you are a member of a visible minority that you really get to understand just how easy it is to fall outside the norms of society. I want to take this opportunity to talk on behalf particularly of non-binary and trans people. They have no other representation in our Parliament. They are a group of people who are quite often—daily—vilified and misrepresented in our country, but they are citizens. They have expressed great reservations about ID. I think that trans and non-binary citizens should be required along with everybody else to prove their identity, but it is up to the Government to make sure that the systems of proof of identity are not based on prejudice or narrow, conventional ideas about what proper voters look like.

Therefore, I want to ask the Minister the following question. This piece of legislation had very little discussion and scrutiny before it came to this House. Will his Government undertake to talk to representatives of all sorts of minority communities about how the legislation will be implemented and what sort of training there will be for the officials who have to implement it, to make sure that it is not discriminatory in the way that is feared?

In this day and age, when commercial companies that truly understand the importance of being able to diversify access to their goods and services can do so in ways that maintain integrity of systems of ID, it is not beyond the wit of a Government to do that. As it stands, this legislation is nowhere near anything that could be considered inclusive. This Government really could do much better.

Covid-19: National Memorial

Baroness Barker Excerpts

Wednesday 8th December 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, we all need to find ways to remember. My aunt died in the Spanish flu pandemic, which was a lifelong sadness to my mother, 70 years after her death. Memories of this pandemic will last equally long and bite equally deep, as the noble Baroness said, in many personal ways. We are aware of the call for the memorial wall to become a permanent national memorial and we welcome the discussions being led by Lambeth Council on this.

[Baroness Barker (LD)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that it is perhaps a bit premature to decide on one national memorial at the moment, as we are far from near the end of this pandemic? Does he know about the memorial forests initiative, whereby people can plant a tree in memory of somebody they know? That campaign has the additional benefit that people can access it online—they do not have to go to London to pay remembrance. Does he think that is worth promoting more generally to the public?

[Lord True (Con)]

The noble Baroness of course makes a very good point; I would always commend the planting of trees. We have received a very large number of views and suggestions from parliamentarians, as we have heard today, and the public on how this period should be remembered and commemorated, which we will pass on to the commission as it is established. I assure noble Lords that it will give full consideration to all initiatives and ideas and provide recommendations to the Prime Minister.