Public Authorities (Fraud, Error and Recovery) Bill
Debate between Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent and Lord Vaux of Harrowden
Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Lab)
I reassure your Lordships’ Committee, particularly the noble Lord and the noble Baroness, that the PSFA and HMRC or the DWP can and will do dual investigations and work closely together. They have their own powers. I think the case of HMRC is probably more relevant than the DWP, but they will work collaboratively and do joint operations while having their own separate remits. It is not that they will not work together; however, we anticipate that especially where there is evidence—as I said earlier, it is about breadth of government—we would expect the majority of the PSFA’s work to be outside of those government agencies or public authorities.
Amendment 7 is unnecessary because it straight- forwardly duplicates matters already dealt with elsewhere in the Bill. Clause 1(1)(a) states that the Minister is given the function of investigating “suspected fraud” against public authorities. Clause 70, the interpretation clause, defines “suspected fraud” as
“conduct which the Minister has reasonable grounds to suspect may constitute fraud”.
I hope that the noble Baroness, Lady Finn, is content that the issues she raises in this amendment are appropriately dealt with.
Finally, Amendment 8 would restrict the fees that the PSFA could charge a public authority for investigation, enforcement or recovery action to no more than the amount that is recovered. Cash recovery is the hardest part of enforcement. Many initiated investigations will close without reaching the recovery stage—for example, because no fraud is found, an alternative approach is taken or because recovery is not possible even if the investigation is successful. The amendment would mean that no fee could be charged in those cases, despite the PSFA having necessarily invested resources into the investigation with the agreement of the public authority to have taken the case and undertaken the actions in the first place. That does not represent good value for money and runs contrary to the guidance in Managing Public Money on cost recovery.
In the most serious cases, cash recovery may not be the main or even a major factor; it will be the disruption of criminal gangs and prosecution of serious offenders. Such cases may be long, complex and multi-agency, and costs will probably exceed any potential recovery quite quickly. In cases of organised crime, assets may be irretrievable, laundered beyond reach or overseas. The public interest in investigation is to punish the criminals. The adoption of this clause would also fail to acknowledge or promote the deterrent effect of the investigations. The PSFA cannot be restricted in the cases that it selects by how much of its costs it can recover; that is counterproductive and counterintuitive.
I have two other points to raise.
Lord Vaux of Harrowden (CB)
I beg the noble Baroness’s pardon but, if the PSFA can charge more than it recovers, is that not a massive disincentive for the public authority to ask it to come in to begin with, given that it has to ask ?
Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Lab)
There is a balance here, because of the positives that go alongside this. There is a genuine issue that, if a criminal gang is actively targeting a public authority, the investigation and prosecution of those people in itself is something that the public authority would wish to see. There will always be costs involved in criminal activities, even if they cannot all be recovered. The police actively investigate criminal gangs, with the pragmatic understanding that not all costs can be recovered. There is also a deterrent effect in prosecuting people to ensure that everyone is aware that, if you defraud the state, you will be prosecuted. We will not always be able to get the money back, but we must be realistic about what is in front of us and what we can achieve.
Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Lab)
My Lords, I apologise in advance, because I think we are about to have a vote—or not, if the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, does not press her Motion.
Some significant points have been touched on in this very short debate. I will respond to each amendment in turn. Amendment 9 looks to introduce a test of reasonableness to determine whether an authorised officer has appropriately considered that information sought is both necessary and proportionate. Clause 3(1)(a) and (b) already set out the test for issuing an information notice: an authorised officer will have the power to compel information only when it is necessary and proportionate to do so, and only when the information being requested relates to a person whom an authorised officer has reasonable grounds to suspect has committed fraud.
Lord Vaux of Harrowden (CB)
What the Minister says is not quite true. It is where “the Minister considers” that it is necessary and proportionate to do so, not simply where it is necessary and proportionate to do so. That is an important difference—hence the reasonableness requirement.
Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Lab)
The noble Lord is going to inspire me to go into more detail. There must be reasonable grounds to suspect that fraud has taken place, which follows the basic rule that there must be an objective basis for that belief. It must be genuinely suspected that the fraud has been carried out by the individual, and the belief must be based on facts and/or information that are relevant to the likelihood of needing to obtain information for the purpose of investigating suspected fraud against public authorities. It must be objectively reasonable for them to suspect this, given the information available to them. The reasonable grounds test is a standard and widely accepted test used by various organisations, including the DWP, the Serious Fraud Office and the police. We are seeking to replicate that.
Lord Vaux of Harrowden (CB)
My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Finn, has said it all, so I will be very brief. I have to say that I am extremely uncomfortable with giving these sorts of police powers to civil servants and others. We have an example in the recent past of powers being used inappropriately by a non-police agency in the Post Office Horizon situation. I am very uncomfortable about it. I am interested to hear why we should not allow the police to deal with these things and why we should give them to civil servants, but I will take some convincing.
Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Lab)
My Lords, I think it is now my turn to say, “I’m back”. This is a very important part of the Bill, and it is right that we discuss it in some detail. It was also raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, in the previous group.
I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Finn, for flagging her concerns regarding the PSFA seeking powers under the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984. For ease, I will now refer to it as PACE. Clause 7 designates authorised investigators with the necessary authority to use limited provisions from PACE within the remit of public sector fraud investigations. Specifically, they are the power to apply to the courts for a warrant to enter and search premises and seize evidence and special provisions to apply to the courts to gain access to certain types of material which are regarded as excluded material or special procedure material. These powers will only be used in criminal investigations to enable all reasonable lines of inquiry to be followed and all relevant evidence to be collected.
To reassure noble Lords, when executing a search warrant, authorised investigators will be accompanied by an officer who has the powers of a constable. This could be either a police officer or an officer from another government department, such as HMRC or the NCA, with the powers of a constable. They will ensure the safety of the authorised investigators and will be able to use their own powers of arrest or reasonable force if necessary. We are not seeking for the Cabinet Office to have powers of arrest. They will always be accompanied by appropriate officials who have powers under PACE.
Authorised investigators will adhere to the relevant PACE codes of practice, which provide robust safeguards around the use of these investigative tools. Every application for a search warrant or a court order under PACE must be scrutinised and authorised by the court. Authorised investigators will also be subject to robust internal and external scrutiny. This will come from the PSFA’s independent person, as appointed under Clause 64, His Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary and Fire and Rescue Services and, as required, the Independent Office for Police Conduct.
To reassure the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, we are very aware of the Horizon scandal and the impact that that had on normal people’s lives. We want to put in every safeguard to make sure, and we hope we have, that these powers could not be used to replicate such a scandal. The PACE powers sought in Clause 7 are the minimum necessary to allow the PSFA to effectively undertake criminal investigations. We are not seeking the full use of PACE powers under this clause for the PSFA.
Turning to Schedule 1, this modifies the provisions of PACE adopted in Clause 7 so that they apply appropriately to authorised investigators within the PSFA. Schedule 1 provides a route for authorised investigators to apply to the court for access to excluded material. Access to special procedure material is provided under Clause 7 and Schedule 1 to PACE. It also establishes a legal framework that allows the PSFA to transfer evidence seized under PACE to other organisations, securing the chain of command—I mean the chain of evidence. It has been a long week; I was getting married a week ago.
Lord Vaux of Harrowden (CB)
My Lords, the Minister mentioned a number of safeguards, including the authorised officer being accompanied by a police constable. I cannot find any of that. Where can I find those safeguards?
Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Lab)
The noble Lord raises a very interesting point. It is in the guidance, but I will write to him so that he has a written record.