Mental Health Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Keeley and Lord Young of Cookham

Committee stage
Wednesday 22nd January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Keeley (Lab)]

My Lords, I rise to explain the significance of Amendment 64 in my name, which aims to cover the situation of both young carers and young children in a family where a care and treatment plan is being prepared for their parent. I thank the Carers Trust for suggesting this amendment and providing a briefing on this issue. I also thank the noble Lord, Lord Young of Cookham, for his support for the amendment and, of course, the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, who has just spoken of her support for it.

Briefly, the amendment adds the requirement that a practitioner preparing or reviewing a care and treatment plan must ask whether there are children in the family and take actions to respond if the children need help or protection from harm. This amendment would, as I said, cover young carers, but it would also cover young children where there may be safeguarding concerns—a topic which the Child Safeguarding Practice Review Panel highlighted as a theme in its latest annual report.

As the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, just touched on, young carers are so often hidden, and often their needs are identified only when there is a crisis. Even then, the extent of their caring role and the impact it has on the child’s development may not be recognised quickly or fully assessed. This amendment would help to ensure earlier identification of children who might be in need of information, support or protection from potential harm. It would mean staff asking the right questions early on to ensure that the right information is recorded and actions taken. It would help with adequate signposting of information and a chance to offer appropriate support to avoid a crisis or manage it appropriately.

The amendment also mirrors the new wording in the Working Together to Safeguard Children statutory guidance, which covers adult social practitioners:

“When staff are providing services to adults, they should ask whether there are children in the family and take actions to respond if the children need help or protection from harm. Additional parenting support could be particularly needed where the adults have mental health problems”.


There is evidence that having a parent with a mental health problem is one of the biggest risk factors for a first episode of major depressive disorder in children and adolescents.

This is not inevitable. Research suggests that intervention can enhance parenting skills in households affected by parental depression, and it can change the way that children cope. In turn, this can reduce the risk of children internalising problems that may threaten their life chances. The amendment is designed to enhance the ability of agencies working individually and together to identify and respond to the safeguarding needs of families. It is about supporting the challenging work of finding out what is happening to children and anticipating risks and harm, of knowing when action is needed. In most cases, children receive the support, help and protection they need, but sometimes children are seriously harmed or, worse, they can die because of neglect.

Policy initiatives in recent years have called for a wider family focus on safeguarding children so that all staff recognise that meeting the needs of family members who may put children at risk benefits the child, the adult and the family as a whole. This amendment would support those efforts. The amendment is in keeping with guidance from the Social Care Institute for Excellence to “Think child, think parent, think family”, to ensure that the child is heard and their needs are met.

The Carers Trust believes that the amendment would unlock additional support from mental health professionals to work with parents and children to enable the child to have age-appropriate understanding of what is happening to their parent and information about what services are available for them in their situation and how they can access them.

To illustrate the need for the amendment, I have two short case studies. Aidan was four when his mother was first sectioned under the Mental Health Act. Throughout his childhood, Aidan’s mother was regularly sectioned and would sometimes be in hospital for a number of months. There were many occasions when the police were involved because his mother had disappeared, which was particularly scary for Aidan. In his words:

“To me, you only ever saw the police if you’d done something wrong, so I remember when they turned up at our house, I thought mum was in trouble”.


Seeing his mother being taken into hospital on a regular basis meant that Aidan had lots of questions and worries. In his words again:

“There were so many times where I wondered whether mum would ever come home. I knew she’d been sectioned but I had no idea what that actually meant or if she would ever get better”.


Staff at the hospital who were treating Aidan’s mother would regularly see him visiting. Despite this, none of the staff there told Aidan or his father about support that might be available or asked whether Aidan might need any help. It was only when Aidan was 12 and his attendance dropped at school that he was identified as a young carer.

The second case is Vamp’s story. This is a pseudonym chosen by her family. The case study is taken from a recently published child safeguarding practice review which found that a 13 year-old girl died as a result of taking drugs sold to her in a park. It was identified that her mother had had a period of serious mental illness, and that illness was identified as the catalyst for things deteriorating for the young person. Tragically, two years on, the young person had died. This is taken from the relevant extract from the child safeguarding practice review:

“Vamp’s mother did not feel that her daughter had been a young carer … as the mental illness was short term. However, Vamp’s sister described the situation as being so difficult for both. When their mother was discharged home from hospital, it was only Vamp and her mother at home. Vamp’s sister was only a young adult, and with her own baby to care for. She … said she felt that no one checked in on their mother. Vamp’s sister … said that professionals expected her mother to manage to parent Vamp, which she was not able to do alone, she needed professional help”.


This is a simple but important amendment to protect young carers. I urge my noble friend the Minister to consider it, and I commend the amendment to the House.

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

My Lords, I have added my name to Amendment 64, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Keeley, and shall speak briefly in support. I have not contributed to this Bill before, but I have sat through many of the debates. Without sounding pompous, it struck me that this was our House at its best, dealing with a complicated Bill in a sensitive and non-partisan way and drawing on the unique expertise we have in our House.

As I listened to the earlier debates on detention and community treatment orders, I asked myself how the children in the families concerned would be informed and what the impact on them would be. We have just heard from the noble Baroness, Lady Keeley, the impact on Aidan when his mother was sectioned. By definition, the people covered by the Bill are vulnerable people; many of them will have carers, and many of those carers will be young carers. As the noble Baroness has just said, this amendment simply helps improve the earlier identification of children of parents being detained under the Act and to ensure that they have access to support, if they need it, and are safeguarded where necessary.

The 2021 census showed that there are 50,000 young carers caring for over 50 hours a week. An astonishing number—3,000 of them—are aged between five and nine. The Carers Trust has shown that those young carers at school are at risk of a poorer attendance record, lower academic achievement and more liable to social isolation and, sadly, bullying, if they are not identified early. As the noble Baroness, Lady Keeley, just said, having a parent with a mental health problem is actually one of the biggest risk factors for depression in children and adolescents. But it is not inevitable: research suggests that intervention can reduce that risk and change the way that children cope.

As a vice-chairman of the APPG on Young Carers, I know that we took evidence last year from young carers, and we heard that on average it takes three years for a young carer to be identified, with some of them taking over 10 years before being identified. Improving early identification is one of the top priorities of the all-party group, so that they can access support and not be negatively affected by their caring situation.

This amendment will help to tackle the issue, which is reported by young carer services, that many potential young carers are not identified by adult mental health services. For example, one young carers service, the Young Carers Alliance, reported that 20% of the young carers it supports are supporting a parent with a mental illness, yet they did not receive a single referral from the adult mental health services in the space of an entire year.

In our inquiry, we also heard from the charity Our Time how, when it comes to identifying young carers by mental health professionals, we are way behind countries such as the Netherlands and Norway. Both those countries have introduced requirements for health professionals to consider whether adults with mental health problems have children. This referral may not be a one-way process; if the child is a carer, he or she may have an insight into the events that trigger an episode in the parent and may actually help the professionals to identify an appropriate treatment pathway.

A final benefit of this amendment is that it would help adult mental health in-patient units ensure that they are complying with the duty under Section 91 of the Health and Care Act 2022 to consult with any carers, including young carers, before discharging an adult from hospital. Again, last year, we heard of patients being discharged without the young carer being informed, often where they were the principal carer. For these reasons, I hope that the Government can support this amendment. I look forward to the Minister’s reply.

Business of the House

Debate between Baroness Keeley and Lord Young of Cookham

Thursday 7th July 2011 Commons Chamber

[Sir George Young]

I commend the hon. Gentleman for his initiative in generating the debate on this matter, and indeed for what he said yesterday. The inquiries will be independent and they will be in public. I note what he has said about the specific format of the inquiries, and that will form part of the consultation process in which we are now engaged.

[Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab)]

Last week, the Deputy Prime Minister made the following announcement at a conference in Birmingham:

“We will localise…business rates. No ifs, no buts, no maybes.”

The localisation of business rates is a key policy change that could make the difference to the city of Salford of a loss of £36 million, while the City of London could gain £550 million. May we therefore have an urgent debate on the Government’s intentions for local government finance, so that Members can ask the questions that they should have been able to ask last week?

[Sir George Young]

If the hon. Lady looks at the coalition agreement, she will see a clear statement of our intention to make local government finance more independent of central Government. We will be consulting in due course on the specific issue of business rates.

Business of the House

Debate between Baroness Keeley and Lord Young of Cookham

Thursday 9th June 2011 Commons Chamber

[Sir George Young]

I understand my right hon. Friend’s anxiety and that the gun has been jumped on the use of hand-held devices in the Chamber in advance of any decision, in that certain Members have already made use of that facility. Having implemented the Wright Committee’s recommendations and having allocated to the Backbench Business Committee time that would otherwise have been available to the Government, I am very reluctant to then find more time for Select Committee reports out of the finite time left to the Government, which we want to spend giving adequate time for Reports, Second Readings and other Government legislation.

[Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab)]

The Select Committee on Communities and Local Government has concluded that the Government’s localism plans are “incoherent” and that their most serious flaw is the accountability gaps. Sir Gus O’Donnell and Sir Bob Kerslake were supposed to be looking into that issue. Given the importance of this issue to local government, will the Leader of the House make time for a debate and may we have an update on those important accountability issues?

[Sir George Young]

I understand the Select Committee report and, of course, the Government will respond in due course. The Government are committed to what we call “double devolution”—enfranchising not only local government, but people beneath local government—and that is at the heart of the debate between us and those who take a different view. I cannot promise time to consider the report, but no doubt the Chair of the Backbench Business Committee will have heard the hon. Lady’s question.

Business of the House

Debate between Baroness Keeley and Lord Young of Cookham

Thursday 17th March 2011 Commons Chamber

[Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab)]

Last week, our national elite female swimming squad were asked to do a naked underwater photo-shoot, which was apparently linked to funding for the team’s Olympic dream as sponsored by the national lottery and British Gas. I understand that the national lottery requires our elite athletes to do such public relations and photo-shoots as a condition of their funding. Will the Leader of the House provide time for a debate on how we are funding the Olympic ambitions of our elite athletes? Does he agree that it would be inappropriate if conditions and requirements for that sort of PR, which seems exploitative, started to be attached to funding?

[Sir George Young]

I will certainly raise the hon. Lady’s concerns with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport. There is total investment of £264 million in Olympic sports for the London four-year cycle, and funding for swimming has increased significantly in the past two Olympic cycles. It now receives the third-highest amount of public investment of the Olympic sports. I understand the concern that she has expressed, and I will share it with my right hon. Friend.

Business of the House

Debate between Baroness Keeley and Lord Young of Cookham

Thursday 17th February 2011 Commons Chamber

[Sir George Young]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. We need tailored individual support to get people back into work. Under the Work programme, to be introduced later in the year, we will have payment by results. Providers, whether from the independent sector or the private sector, will be remunerated when people are in sustainable, long-term employment, rather than as with previous programmes, where payment was simply to get someone off the register for six months. Sadly, over half of those people were back on benefits by the seventh month. I hope that the structure of our Work programme will have the results that my hon. Friend wants.

[Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab)]

The Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government was asked on the BBC “Today” programme about having debates on senior pay in council chambers, which he is insisting on, but not on senior pay in Whitehall in this Chamber. He said:

“I don’t see any reason why we shouldn’t have this kind of debate in the House of Commons.”

We have heard that the Secretary of State gets confused about which sector he is talking about, so can the Leader of the House tell us whether he has any plans for a debate in Government time on senior pay, and will he extend it to low pay, which Opposition Members think is just as important?

[Sir George Young]

Of course low pay is important, but the hon. Lady’s question focused on what my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government said. As far as civil servants are concerned, Select Committees have adequate opportunity, particularly when they look at the accounts of individual Departments, to hold the Minister to account on the salaries that are paid in the Department, and it is always open to have debates on the Floor of the House about the structure of salaries in the civil service. Of course, there is a defined salary structure in the civil service, whereas there is slightly less clarity in relation to local government and the chief executives, so I do not think it is an exact parallel.

Business of the House

Debate between Baroness Keeley and Lord Young of Cookham

Thursday 9th December 2010 Commons Chamber

[Sir George Young]

The whole House will deplore any waste of funds. Of course, it is right that EU structural funds should be put to the use for which they are designed. I am happy to say that the UK has above average implementation of the structural and cohesion funds, and the UK programmes are on track to meet their targets. I cannot comment on the programmes of other member states, but I will draw the Foreign Secretary’s attention to my hon. Friend’s general point about the lack of accountability in part of the budget.

[Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab)]

On 16 June, in his speech to the Hansard Society, the Leader of the House said that

“it has simply become too easy for the Government to sideline Parliament; to push Bills through without adequate scrutiny; and to see the House more as a rubber-stamp than a proper check on executive authority”.

He also said that his Government believe that a strong Parliament leads to a better Government. How does he square his belief in a strong Parliament with the Government’s shameful truncating of the debate on their proposals on tuition fees?

[Sir George Young]

I have to say to the hon. Lady, who was Deputy Leader of the House, that we could have done what the previous Government did and allocated five hours for tuition fees, including the business motion. Any time spent on the business motion would have come out of that five hours. The previous Government did that, but we have more respect for Parliament than to do that on this issue.

Business of the House

Debate between Baroness Keeley and Lord Young of Cookham

Thursday 8th July 2010 Commons Chamber

[Sir George Young]

I am not getting ahead of myself at all. If the hon. Gentleman had listened to the statement made by the Deputy Prime Minister on Monday, he would have heard clearly outlined the legislation that would be introduced on constitutional issues. There will be a Bill on the alternative vote system and boundaries, and there will be a Bill on fixed-term Parliaments. That is likely to take some time for us to discuss and there will be opportunities for the hon. Gentleman and my hon. Friend the Member for Windsor to raise the issues that concern them on the Floor of the House.

[Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab)]

On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Baroness Keeley and Lord Young of Cookham

Monday 21st June 2010 Commons Chamber

[Sir George Young]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that question, and I know that a number of colleagues have had difficulties in accessing the system. The whole purpose of allowances is to facilitate and enable MPs to represent their constituents and hold the Government to account. I am considering whether we can have a proper channel of communication between the House and IPSA to get a sensible dialogue under way. I hope he welcomes the announcement a few days ago that there will be a review of the scheme later this year.

[Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab)]

Since the start of this Parliament, the coalition Government have repeatedly ignored the House of Commons when making major policy announcements, thus avoiding scrutiny in the Chamber. There have also been some major leaks. Today we have the BBC announcing that the Chancellor will freeze council tax in the Budget, and the Department of Health announced major changes to the NHS operating framework to the media hours before a written ministerial statement on those changes. The Government’s discourtesy also means that copies of statements are delivered late to the Opposition Front Bench, often with only minutes to spare. Will the right hon. Gentleman, who I think believes that good scrutiny leads to good government, assure us that statements will be made first to the House and not to the media, and that the Opposition Front-Bench team will receive a copy of the statement at least an hour before it is delivered?

[Sir George Young]

Of course, statements should be delivered to the Opposition on time, and during the last Parliament Opposition spokesmen did receive copies of statements later than they should have, but I wholeheartedly reject the hon. Lady’s allegation about statements. By the end of today, Ministers will have made no fewer than 10 statements since the Queen’s Speech, and I think that she will find that that is a higher strike rate than was achieved by the last Government. Of course, the House should be the first place to hear of any changes in Government policy.