Health and Social Care (Re-committed) Bill

Baroness Keeley Excerpts

Tuesday 6th September 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Dorrell]

My understanding is that the Government have clarified that foundation trust board meetings should be held in public and that, in future, it will be a requirement of licensing by Monitor. On the much broader point, I absolutely agree—the hon. Lady, who is another member of the Select Committee, knows that I agree—that providers of care to NHS patients, whether public or private, ought to have an obligation to provide information on the outcomes that they achieve and certainly on any complaints and other processes initiated by patients about the care they receive. That was one of the strong recommendations that the Select Committee made following its work on complaints. I think that that obligation ought to rest on all providers of care to NHS patients, whether they are foundation trusts or any other form of provider.

[Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab)]

Will the right hon. Gentleman provide some clarification? I think that he said “should” and not “must”. For other functions, particularly relating to local government, the Government seem to be into dropping standards and codes of conduct—that is certainly the case in local councils—but surely trusts “must” have meetings in public, not “should”.

[Mr Dorrell]

Ministers can correct me, but my understanding is that, under the obligation being introduced, they “must” meet in public. I have no authority to speak for the Government, but I believe that that is what the Government intend. For myself, as a patient of a trust or other NHS provider, whether in the public or private sector, my interest lies in ensuring that the information about my—

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[Frank Dobson]

If the hon. Gentleman—and, for that matter, the Secretary of State and the Chair of the Health Select Committee—had ever listened to what I say, they would know that I think that we need change. We need organic change, however, rather than structural change, because structural change generally costs more than it provides. If the hon. Gentleman thinks that introducing a system in which virtually every transaction will be a legally binding document, with herds of lawyers grasping their share of proceedings, will reduce the amount spent on administration, he obviously believes in Father Christmas and various other mythical figures.

[Barbara Keeley]

Before we get into any more claims of more being spent, I want to touch on two examples of cuts, caused by the cuts and efficiency savings, which I raised with the Minister of State, Department of Health, the hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Burstow). The most deprived ward in my constituency is losing its NHS walk-in centre and all the people with long-term conditions are losing active case management. I raised those two cuts made by Salford PCT with the Minister in an Adjournment debate, to which I have received no answer. There is no answer. People in the most deprived wards with the greatest health inequalities are suffering from these cuts. I will not hear any more about more investment being made, because all I see as a constituency MP is less investment.

[Frank Dobson]

I agree entirely with my hon. Friend. A further point is that I doubt whether there is a single constituency anywhere in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland that has seen more change in health provision than mine. There are not many places where a virtually trouble-free amalgamation of two major and famous teaching hospitals into one has taken place successfully. There are not very many places that have seen more small GP practices getting together in one location and improving their performance. Those things have always been done with my strong support, even when on some occasions, at least at the outset, the ideas were not popular with some local people. Therefore, I do not accept that I do not believe in change. I believe in sensible change, not stupid change, but stupid change is what we seem to be getting.

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[Frank Dobson]

I entirely agree with my hon. Friend. I think that nowadays those who call themselves members of the Conservative party only purport to be Conservatives. The basic Conservative approach in this world is, broadly speaking, not to make great changes without being absolutely certain that substantial benefits will result from them. A proper Conservative recognises the problems that arise during the process of change, and the unpredictability of things in human life. What we have now, certainly in relation in health and possibly in other spheres, is a Government who are going ahead with something which—good God!—cannot be regarded as well thought out, given that they have tabled 1,000 amendments on Report.

[Barbara Keeley]

I winder whether my right hon. Friend heard the Leader of the House say to the Hansard Society that

“it has simply become too easy for the Government to sideline Parliament; to push Bills through without adequate scrutiny; and to see the House more as a rubber-stamp than a proper check on executive authority.”

He also said that, in the Government’s view,

“a strong Parliament leads to a better Government.”

Does my right hon. Friend believe that the Bill, and the very shortened debate on its recommittal, constitute a good illustration of that?

[Frank Dobson]

In fairness, I think that given the accuracy of the present Government’s aim, if they tried to rubber-stamp something they would probably miss.

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[Grahame M. Morris]

We had this exchange many times in the Committee on a variety of clauses. We need to give some credit to the previous Government. I am old enough to remember when people routinely waited a year, 18 months or longer for life-changing operations such as knee and hip replacements. It is a real quality-of-life issue if someone has cataracts and has to wait a long time for an operation. I accept that Labour used the private sector. I am a socialist and make no apology for that, and I want the provision to be public sector. I was not a Member of Parliament and did not vote for the commissioning of private providers, but I acknowledge that the private sector played a role in bringing extra capacity and some innovation to the service.

[Barbara Keeley]

My hon. Friend is making a wonderful speech. I wanted to make this point when my right hon. Friend the Member for Holborn and St Pancras (Frank Dobson) was speaking about the number of operations and the improvements during Labour’s term of office.

In the 1997 general election when I was campaigning in Wythenshawe and Sale, East constituency, I met someone who had been told that he had to wait two years for vital surgery and was desperately worried that he would die while he was waiting. I met someone in my constituency in last year’s general election campaign who received a diagnostic test on Monday, found he had cancer on Tuesday, went into hospital on Wednesday and was operated on on Thursday and his life was saved. From two years to four days—I thought that was the best testament to the improvement that Labour had brought about in the NHS.

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[Mark Simmonds]

I give way first to the hon. Member for Worsley and Eccles South (Barbara Keeley).

[Barbara Keeley]

The speech of my right hon. Friend the Member for Holborn and St Pancras (Frank Dobson) is one of the best I have heard in the Chamber, as I think Opposition Members would agree. People outside the Chamber are saying that too.

On repetitiveness in the points that are being made, Report stage allows Members who did not serve on the Committee to say the things that they want to say. It is our chance right across the House to comment on the Bill, so that is not a valid criticism of what is going on in the debate.

[Mark Simmonds]

I hope the hon. Member for Easington has a better intervention to make.

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[Barbara Keeley]

I think that a few Labour Members are quite surprised by what the hon. Gentleman has said, and the Hansard writers might ask him where it came from. He cannot get away with making a statement like that and not saying where it came from—he should be quoting it. He is saying that the majority of people working in the NHS surveyed in 2009 did not put patient care at the top of the list, and he should quote where that information comes from.

[Dr Poulter]

The point is—I speak as a front-line doctor who still practises in the NHS—that far too often we see form-filling that gets in the way of our doing our job as doctors in hospitals, and that is not for the benefit of patients.

[Barbara Keeley]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Dr Poulter]

No, sit down. The hon. Lady should listen to this, because it is important. The point is that doctors and nurses need to be allowed to get on and do their jobs.

A key focus is not just about putting more money into front-line patient care but making sure that we have clinical leadership of services. Form-filling for the sake of it does not benefit patients; what benefits patients is allowing doctors to treat those in front of them. Under the perverse incentives that were created previously, the four-hour wait in A and E means that a patient with a broken toe is just as much of a priority as someone with potentially life-threatening chest pain. That is the problem with the service that we have, and that is why the clinical leadership and focus that this Bill is bringing will be so important.