Built Environment Committee
Tuesday 10th November 2026
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10:47
Lord Gascoigne
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Lord Gascoigne
And welcome to the House of Lords in the Built Environment Select Committee. Last week we started our latest short inquiry into public realm and the enforcement and maintenance of public realm across the country. And this is our second session today where we have not only a star, a star cast before us, but we are going to be focusing on how do you get a high standard and maintain that high standard in the public realm across the country? And joining us today we have first is Councillor Cashman, who is chair of the LGA Inclusive Growth Committee, as well as being a councillor on Liverpool City Council.
We have Alexander Jan, who is chair of Central District Alliance and Hatton Garden Bids and has got a background in the built environment as well as working for Arup. And then finally, on this side, we have John Dunn, who is chairman of the Wise Services Group, which from my understanding, is a enforcement partner to many local authorities across the country. Thank you very much for joining us today. I think you're aware we've got a series of questions, which we'll all ask a few things from me. First, I think it would be great to hear as much evidence of of good examples and not that you may have.
I think it would be good to hear a lot about some of the work that happens, not just in some of the big cities, but if you've got some examples in in smaller local authorities, I think it would be good to hear. But also , crucially, examples of where local authorities and business and civil society, as well as other corporations and individuals can pull together and help improve public realm. If you have answers to any of the questions, we'd love to hear from you, obviously. I think if you could keep your answers as tight as is possible, and we will keep our questions short as well.
If you feel that the questions have been answered, please don't feel obliged to to fill the time. I'm conscious of your time as as much as ours. And with that, I'm going to just kick off first, if I may, which is a sort of general question about what do you perceive to be the the impacts of high quality, well-maintained public spaces versus those that perhaps are less so? I'll start with the council, if I may. Councillor Cashman.
Welcome. May may start, please.
We have Alexander Jan, who is chair of Central District Alliance and Hatton Garden Bids and has got a background in the built environment as well as working for Arup. And then finally, on this side, we have John Dunn, who is chairman of the Wise Services Group, which from my understanding, is a enforcement partner to many local authorities across the country. Thank you very much for joining us today. I think you're aware we've got a series of questions, which we'll all ask a few things from me. First, I think it would be great to hear as much evidence of of good examples and not that you may have.
I think it would be good to hear a lot about some of the work that happens, not just in some of the big cities, but if you've got some examples in in smaller local authorities, I think it would be good to hear. But also , crucially, examples of where local authorities and business and civil society, as well as other corporations and individuals can pull together and help improve public realm. If you have answers to any of the questions, we'd love to hear from you, obviously. I think if you could keep your answers as tight as is possible, and we will keep our questions short as well.
If you feel that the questions have been answered, please don't feel obliged to to fill the time. I'm conscious of your time as as much as ours. And with that, I'm going to just kick off first, if I may, which is a sort of general question about what do you perceive to be the the impacts of high quality, well-maintained public spaces versus those that perhaps are less so? I'll start with the council, if I may. Councillor Cashman.
Welcome. May may start, please.
10:49
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Thank you for that, chair. I think high quality public spaces is something I care very passionately about. And I think it's very important, not only in places like Liverpool but everywhere around the country. If you're looking for someone to invest in your place, if you're looking for someone to come and visit your place, and if you're looking for people to take pride in their place, then it's very important for public spaces to represent that. I know, for example, in Liverpool we've had Liverpool one, which was a brilliant private public sector partnership, and the interaction with the council that they have means that we have a well-maintained space that people want to come and invest in, open shops in, and also people want to visit and spend their money.
And just as a side note, I think there's a little bit of a Liverpool conspiracy in the room today. Obviously I'm currently a councillor on Liverpool. Alexander apparently is originally from Wavertree. We've got wise services that are contracted by Liverpool City Council and also John's from over the water. We don't.
And just as a side note, I think there's a little bit of a Liverpool conspiracy in the room today. Obviously I'm currently a councillor on Liverpool. Alexander apparently is originally from Wavertree. We've got wise services that are contracted by Liverpool City Council and also John's from over the water. We don't.
10:50
10:50
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
I was coming, I was coming to Baroness Griffin as well. So there definitely is a Liverpool conspiracy in the room. And last but not least is the fact that we've got Grosvenor here as well. Of course. Who who built Liverpool one. Now I would say the best example of a well-maintained public space in which the private sector and the public sector work very well together, is Liverpool one. And if you see how that thrives in comparison to other parts of my city and other parts of the northwest, you see what a high quality public space actually does for that investment and for that place.
10:51
Lord Gascoigne
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Lord Gascoigne
Great. Thank you. And Simon, welcome. We've only just started, so but thank you Alexander. I wonder if I could I could switch over to you bringing it back down to to the south perhaps. Yes of course. Thank you, Lord Glasgow. So just to sort of reflect on what's been said. I mean, I think the, the, the issue of, of the impact of poor quality public spaces is really the sort of signal it sends out to the people who use that space. They live, they work, they visit it. And, you know, in our sort of private lives and indeed in private space, inside buildings, inside shopping centres and so forth, people have become accustomed their cars when they travel by most modes of transport, they're sort of accustomed to quite a high level of comfort, safety and wellbeing.
And the public realm, as it's called, when it's not looked after, kind of risks sending a signal to those people that this area isn't really cared for. There's no one sort of with oversight of it trying to look after it and manage it. And that then in turn has an effect on how they feel and behave. It potentially allows people to behave less well than they should in terms of anti-social behaviour. And in a very real sense, it can affect the sentiment of employers and workers and potential investors in an area who might otherwise be looking to locate businesses there or expand them.
So, for example, I know of a real case where a building in one of the business improvement areas I helped to look after has recently been refurbished, and potential tenants have come to that building. And it's a marvellous building. Sustainability credentials are high and all the rest of it, and they've got as far as the street involved and they've turned tail and say there's no point taking us inside because of the feel of the area. Now, partly that will be to do with anti-social behaviour and other factors, but in terms of the ambience of the street.
So this is abandoned phone boxes, you know, roadworks signs, bags of litter of commercial waste, these sorts of things. They can all have that sort of corrosive effect on how an area looks, feels and then performs in economic terms. Thank you John.
And the public realm, as it's called, when it's not looked after, kind of risks sending a signal to those people that this area isn't really cared for. There's no one sort of with oversight of it trying to look after it and manage it. And that then in turn has an effect on how they feel and behave. It potentially allows people to behave less well than they should in terms of anti-social behaviour. And in a very real sense, it can affect the sentiment of employers and workers and potential investors in an area who might otherwise be looking to locate businesses there or expand them.
So, for example, I know of a real case where a building in one of the business improvement areas I helped to look after has recently been refurbished, and potential tenants have come to that building. And it's a marvellous building. Sustainability credentials are high and all the rest of it, and they've got as far as the street involved and they've turned tail and say there's no point taking us inside because of the feel of the area. Now, partly that will be to do with anti-social behaviour and other factors, but in terms of the ambience of the street.
So this is abandoned phone boxes, you know, roadworks signs, bags of litter of commercial waste, these sorts of things. They can all have that sort of corrosive effect on how an area looks, feels and then performs in economic terms. Thank you John.
10:53
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Thank you chair. Today I want to answer a lot of the questions as well from all different levels, because I started off as an enforcement officer. So I know what it's like to, to issue penalties and, and be out on the street and know what it's like to run those teams. And now I know what it's like to be a business owner as an environmental enforcement company. But to me, when places look neglected, people don't know who's in charge. And then that behaviour follows. So if they see litter, they tend to drop more litter on the floor there.
And what I want to do is try and share some experiences and experience that I've got myself. When I was working with Windsor and Maidenhead Council. They had a responsibility on a day to day basis to keep the guard room clear, and local businesses cottoned on to that very fast and what they would do is, on a daily basis, they would just put their black bags out on the street. So if you went through Windsor town centre, you would just see black bags everywhere and it was a bit of an eyesore. But then also the residents and and the shops above the businesses also cottoned on to that as well.
So they thought, well, you know what, why wait for our our waste to be collected? Why not just put our bags out on a daily basis and we can just clear them out day by day? And it got to a stage where when I was on patrol one morning, I watched a car pull up and someone got out the car and got a load of bin bags out, and they put the bags there as well. And when I spoke to this person, I said, you know, why have you pulled up and put your bags there?
He said, well, everyone knows that if you just bring your bags here, the council will just clean it up because they have to. It's a clear policy where the castle is down the bottom of the the lane there, there's a statue. And what I noticed one day is that the statue was full of bin bags. Cardboard had all just been dumped there because this was this was all common knowledge. When we investigated it, it led us to a business on the opposite side of the road. And when we spoke to that business, the business genuinely believed that when he paid business rates, that meant that he could put his waste out on the street and the council would just collect it.
So he didn't realise that that he was actually doing anything wrong. Now, it took us two weeks to clear this up, and the behaviour does change quite remarkably when education does engagement and then also enforcement action. So over that two week period, we took enforcement action. We did waste inspections. We ensured that all the businesses were signed up with licensed waste carriers. And then we took firm action on the few that carried on. But the point of my experience is, is that it's not it's not often that it's the penalty that changes the behaviour. It's actually the visible presence on the street and people being out there and people engaging and talking to, to businesses and letting them know that they shouldn't do that.
And in this respect, but also that if this can happen next to Windsor Castle, then it can happen anywhere in the whole of the UK. So I thought that would be a good example to share with you today.
And what I want to do is try and share some experiences and experience that I've got myself. When I was working with Windsor and Maidenhead Council. They had a responsibility on a day to day basis to keep the guard room clear, and local businesses cottoned on to that very fast and what they would do is, on a daily basis, they would just put their black bags out on the street. So if you went through Windsor town centre, you would just see black bags everywhere and it was a bit of an eyesore. But then also the residents and and the shops above the businesses also cottoned on to that as well.
So they thought, well, you know what, why wait for our our waste to be collected? Why not just put our bags out on a daily basis and we can just clear them out day by day? And it got to a stage where when I was on patrol one morning, I watched a car pull up and someone got out the car and got a load of bin bags out, and they put the bags there as well. And when I spoke to this person, I said, you know, why have you pulled up and put your bags there?
He said, well, everyone knows that if you just bring your bags here, the council will just clean it up because they have to. It's a clear policy where the castle is down the bottom of the the lane there, there's a statue. And what I noticed one day is that the statue was full of bin bags. Cardboard had all just been dumped there because this was this was all common knowledge. When we investigated it, it led us to a business on the opposite side of the road. And when we spoke to that business, the business genuinely believed that when he paid business rates, that meant that he could put his waste out on the street and the council would just collect it.
So he didn't realise that that he was actually doing anything wrong. Now, it took us two weeks to clear this up, and the behaviour does change quite remarkably when education does engagement and then also enforcement action. So over that two week period, we took enforcement action. We did waste inspections. We ensured that all the businesses were signed up with licensed waste carriers. And then we took firm action on the few that carried on. But the point of my experience is, is that it's not it's not often that it's the penalty that changes the behaviour. It's actually the visible presence on the street and people being out there and people engaging and talking to, to businesses and letting them know that they shouldn't do that.
And in this respect, but also that if this can happen next to Windsor Castle, then it can happen anywhere in the whole of the UK. So I thought that would be a good example to share with you today.
10:56
Lord Gascoigne
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Lord Gascoigne
No very much. Thank you very much for that. John Simon, you missed missed the very beginning of my sort of first exam. Question is to what extent is there evidence that there is an impact on on poor quality public spaces versus high quality? I wonder from your I mean, obviously you've got many sites across across the country internationally, I think, as well. But looking at this country across, across, across the UK, outside of London. What's your perception? And also is a sort of an economic element actually from, from your perspective, that actually, if it is well maintained that there is a benefit.
10:57
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Yeah. So I think fundamentally we are long term stewards. So what's really important is listening and engagement with the local community, the local occupiers and stakeholders to really engage with them with regards to the public space and really helping them be part of how that evolves and how we use that space. So really listening and understanding, gathering evidence. So as a landowner, as property owners, we may think that spaces should be used in such a way, but without that engagement, we don't really understand. Then also it's acting and working with communities and our partners, whether that be Westminster, our business partners within the areas, other stakeholders, to really working and engaging with them , and then really understanding the measures of the impact we're we're going to create.
So as steward, there is a steward of buildings and spaces. There is huge economic benefit to our retailers, our occupiers, and also visitors to the area by well thought out, well planned public space that I agree with the gentleman mentioned earlier. That's well maintained sort of behavior breeds behavior. If you go to a clean and tidy environment, you're more likely to keep it that way. Whereas if stuff is messy with bin bags and litter, then you're more likely to follow suit and dispose your waste alongside the other rubbish that's on the streets.
So as steward, there is a steward of buildings and spaces. There is huge economic benefit to our retailers, our occupiers, and also visitors to the area by well thought out, well planned public space that I agree with the gentleman mentioned earlier. That's well maintained sort of behavior breeds behavior. If you go to a clean and tidy environment, you're more likely to keep it that way. Whereas if stuff is messy with bin bags and litter, then you're more likely to follow suit and dispose your waste alongside the other rubbish that's on the streets.
10:58
Lord Gascoigne
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Lord Gascoigne
No. It's interesting. Thank you very much. I wonder if I can ask you very, very briefly, slightly picking up on what Councillor Cashman was talking about. But is there a sort of north south urban rural divide in this where perhaps the local authorities are larger versus the smaller? Is there something in there from from your perspective very quickly? Grant. Councillor. Yes. Go on. Alexander. Yeah. Well I think, I think so I think there's probably a city centre issue. So many of the issues I'm conscious the committee wants to talk about and think about areas outside of London.
And forgive me for having been down here 38 years now, even though I'm from the same neck of the woods as these gentlemen. But I definitely think there's a city centre issue. So Birmingham and Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds, other big cities will experience, I think, many of the same challenges as central London and London's other town centres. And if we get a chance to talk about central London and some of the specific challenges around boundaries, that I think that would be of value to the committee. So there's that aspect. I think there's also actually an element around less well-off areas versus more prosperous areas.
And and even though as an economist, I'm very interested in how these, you know, cleaner streets and all the rest of it create value. There is a social equity issue here as well. And I think that the evidence probably shows that areas which are more well off, even if they have the same funding allocation by their local authorities, are probably more effective at keeping their streets clean because the residents and in some cases, the businesses know how to navigate what is a very complicated system to get things done. And the risk is that in less well-off areas, in areas with populations that might be newer to the country, understand where English isn't the first language necessarily, you know, understanding how to navigate, how to get a particular problem, a phone box, a set of roadworks, a road sign, a bag of commercial waste from one company versus another.
You've got to kind of have a hand in how all these things work in order to apply pressure to get an outcome. So I would I would reflect on a city centres across the country having common issues and problems, and secondly, differentiating between less well-off areas and better off areas, which is also a national phenomenon. Okay, councillor.
And forgive me for having been down here 38 years now, even though I'm from the same neck of the woods as these gentlemen. But I definitely think there's a city centre issue. So Birmingham and Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds, other big cities will experience, I think, many of the same challenges as central London and London's other town centres. And if we get a chance to talk about central London and some of the specific challenges around boundaries, that I think that would be of value to the committee. So there's that aspect. I think there's also actually an element around less well-off areas versus more prosperous areas.
And and even though as an economist, I'm very interested in how these, you know, cleaner streets and all the rest of it create value. There is a social equity issue here as well. And I think that the evidence probably shows that areas which are more well off, even if they have the same funding allocation by their local authorities, are probably more effective at keeping their streets clean because the residents and in some cases, the businesses know how to navigate what is a very complicated system to get things done. And the risk is that in less well-off areas, in areas with populations that might be newer to the country, understand where English isn't the first language necessarily, you know, understanding how to navigate, how to get a particular problem, a phone box, a set of roadworks, a road sign, a bag of commercial waste from one company versus another.
You've got to kind of have a hand in how all these things work in order to apply pressure to get an outcome. So I would I would reflect on a city centres across the country having common issues and problems, and secondly, differentiating between less well-off areas and better off areas, which is also a national phenomenon. Okay, councillor.
11:01
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Thanks, chair. I completely agree with with those comments. And I think I think you're right to to ask that question. I think it's an important question. It's probably very easy for me to sit here and say, yeah, absolutely. You know, places like Liverpool, it's much more difficult. And that's for a wide variety of reasons. You know, one being deprivation, one being that it's a more built up area and that will be reflected in the likes of, you know, Manchester, Leeds, other cities as as Alexander mentioned. But it is a problem across local government as a whole, to be perfectly honest as well.
And that's for a number of reasons, not least because local governments had its funding stripped over the course of the last 1015 years. But as part of that funding, what has also happened is an increase in, you know, problems with C and D and adult social care. And so councils at the moment, I know Liverpool, for example, are spending up to 70% of its budget on adult social care. So why I think, you know, councils need to do that and should prioritize those types of services. It's not that councils won't want to actually protect the public realm or make sure that the public realm is enhanced.
It's actually an issue of funding and the fact that they've not got the funding to be able to do that. Now, I think that that bids I think that, you know, companies like wise, I think that companies like Grosvenor are very important partners in working together to protect and enhance the public realm, because councils don't necessarily have the funding themselves. But I know from a Liverpool perspective that the CEO of my bid gets very frustrated when the bids picking up the slack in many ways. But what I suppose what I want to say to the committee here is a lot of the times it's not the council's fault.
A lot of the times the council would want to sit down with the bid and other partners and say, absolutely, we want to put the public realm first, but it is an issue. Funding . And I think fundamentally, fundamentally, we need to come back to that piece of, okay, how do we resolve long term social adult social care? How do we resolve long term issues with C and D? But then as a side note to that, you know, ring fence that funding, but we need more funding to deal with the public realm as well.
And that's for a number of reasons, not least because local governments had its funding stripped over the course of the last 1015 years. But as part of that funding, what has also happened is an increase in, you know, problems with C and D and adult social care. And so councils at the moment, I know Liverpool, for example, are spending up to 70% of its budget on adult social care. So why I think, you know, councils need to do that and should prioritize those types of services. It's not that councils won't want to actually protect the public realm or make sure that the public realm is enhanced.
It's actually an issue of funding and the fact that they've not got the funding to be able to do that. Now, I think that that bids I think that, you know, companies like wise, I think that companies like Grosvenor are very important partners in working together to protect and enhance the public realm, because councils don't necessarily have the funding themselves. But I know from a Liverpool perspective that the CEO of my bid gets very frustrated when the bids picking up the slack in many ways. But what I suppose what I want to say to the committee here is a lot of the times it's not the council's fault.
A lot of the times the council would want to sit down with the bid and other partners and say, absolutely, we want to put the public realm first, but it is an issue. Funding . And I think fundamentally, fundamentally, we need to come back to that piece of, okay, how do we resolve long term social adult social care? How do we resolve long term issues with C and D? But then as a side note to that, you know, ring fence that funding, but we need more funding to deal with the public realm as well.
11:03
11:03
Lord Cameron of Dillington
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Lord Cameron of Dillington
Yeah, thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you very much for the evidence so far. My question is, how do we encourage different organizations, both public and private, who might have an interest in this agenda or might be persuaded to have an interest in this agenda to work together? What what are the barriers to to collaboration and how do we overcome those barriers? And if you've got any good examples which you can either let us have orally or in writing, as to when private and public bodies have worked together effectively, I would be really good to hear from them.
So should we start on the right hand side this time? John, do you want to go first?
So should we start on the right hand side this time? John, do you want to go first?
11:03
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Yes. No, no. No problem at all. I mean, that's kind of our bread and butter, I guess is because we work with councils and we don't start working with councils to replace their current internal service. What we're doing is we're enhancing their internal capacity. And what I'll do is I'll give you an example of how that's worked in a small rural council, which would be Rushcliffe Council, who we've been working with since 2021. And they had a a major flytipping issue because it was so rural, is that from nearby councils, criminals were coming over the border and they were dumping their their waste around Rushcliffe borough.
But what was happening is, is because of capacity issues. The council were just sending the cleansing team out and they were simply just clearing the waste on the same day. So it was solving the problem, but all it was doing was putting a plaster on it. Because what would happen is, is these offenders would just keep offending within the borough. Now we're working with ourselves, come in and we're working together. Worked really well was that we got in between the complaint and the cleansing. So the complaints were then coming to ourselves. We would go out, we would investigate the waste that was being dumped, and then we would inform the council, and the cleansing team would then come out and and still remove that waste.
But then we would have evidence of what we would do is, is then it would lead us to a doorstep or lead us to a business, and then we would investigate and we would take enforcement action against that. What it did in the first 12 months was, was reduced complaints by 60%. The downside to that is, is that , and I know, and we've got evidence to the fact is, is all we did was push them over the border to the next council. And because we work with neighbouring councils, we actually, once we started working with some of the neighbouring councils, we would come across exactly the same offenders doing exactly the same issues.
So from a working together side of things, I think working together works extremely well with that type of scenario . And it is a genuine partnership. But then also when you're working with a private company such as ours, it needs to be transparent to the council, need to be able to see everything that's happening. So should we take any enforcement action immediately? The council can see the body worn camera footage of the officer. They can see the penalty or the enforcement action that was taken, the witness statement and also the notebook entry of the officer. So it allows the council to perform and manage that private company the same way that the performance manage their own company.
But where I believe the barrier is, is that it's the data side of things. And as a private company, what we need access to is, is we need access to these offenders and these past offenders. We need access to waste contracts. We need access to the council tax register, the electoral roll, so we can confirm the identity of offenders. And also the same police supported the councils get as well. And then that true partnership can then can then come together from there. Because the problem is across council borders as well, and not just within that particular council.
But what was happening is, is because of capacity issues. The council were just sending the cleansing team out and they were simply just clearing the waste on the same day. So it was solving the problem, but all it was doing was putting a plaster on it. Because what would happen is, is these offenders would just keep offending within the borough. Now we're working with ourselves, come in and we're working together. Worked really well was that we got in between the complaint and the cleansing. So the complaints were then coming to ourselves. We would go out, we would investigate the waste that was being dumped, and then we would inform the council, and the cleansing team would then come out and and still remove that waste.
But then we would have evidence of what we would do is, is then it would lead us to a doorstep or lead us to a business, and then we would investigate and we would take enforcement action against that. What it did in the first 12 months was, was reduced complaints by 60%. The downside to that is, is that , and I know, and we've got evidence to the fact is, is all we did was push them over the border to the next council. And because we work with neighbouring councils, we actually, once we started working with some of the neighbouring councils, we would come across exactly the same offenders doing exactly the same issues.
So from a working together side of things, I think working together works extremely well with that type of scenario . And it is a genuine partnership. But then also when you're working with a private company such as ours, it needs to be transparent to the council, need to be able to see everything that's happening. So should we take any enforcement action immediately? The council can see the body worn camera footage of the officer. They can see the penalty or the enforcement action that was taken, the witness statement and also the notebook entry of the officer. So it allows the council to perform and manage that private company the same way that the performance manage their own company.
But where I believe the barrier is, is that it's the data side of things. And as a private company, what we need access to is, is we need access to these offenders and these past offenders. We need access to waste contracts. We need access to the council tax register, the electoral roll, so we can confirm the identity of offenders. And also the same police supported the councils get as well. And then that true partnership can then can then come together from there. Because the problem is across council borders as well, and not just within that particular council.
11:07
Lord Gascoigne
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Lord Gascoigne
Yes. Why not? So I think it's a mixed picture. I think that in terms of, you know, ways of working that are collaborative and productive, I think that the greatest state, which, you know, not just in London, Liverpool, one we've heard about, but the greatest state, the Business improvement district. Major employers working with their local authorities can be very productive and effective at addressing some of these challenges head on. If you look at areas like Covent Garden and. Further up on the west side of Oxford Street, I've mentioned it. You'll see that people like Shaftesbury Capital, for example, who own lots of that estate and indeed the Crown and others are very kind of pretty good.
Cadogan, a quite good at taking a degree of ownership of these areas, but that does involve them putting a lot of their own money into them in order to effectively top up the services that are being provided by local authorities. So I think that's an example of good working. And, you know, the the slight frustration is that I think most bids would much rather be spending their levy payers resources on things to promote the area, to make them a bit more fun, to activate the space, to advocate for investment and so on, rather than be cleaning the streets.
But the reality is that because of the nature of the way local government is funded and financed and the resource pressures in other areas, statutory service provision we've heard about, you know, these local authorities are have really do have one hand tied behind their backs. So there's a resourcing issue there, but there's good examples of collaboration. I think areas where we could perhaps improve things using different mechanisms. I think the phone box companies have a lot to answer for. I mean I think it's a total disgrace the way they are allowed to leave these things in the street, which are used for a whole host of behaviours which I won't take the committee through.
And yet for a local authority to get rid of, one can take months, if not years, and cost up to £30,000. So I think actually there's a need for legislative change there, or some sort of punitive charging arrangement so that for every phone box, the provider has to pay £100,000 over and above, you know, what's required from a statutory provision in terms of phone boxes for so many hundred metres and so on, particularly important in rural areas. So I think we need sort of sharper teeth to deal with them on road works, which kind of thing contributes to the some of the problems we're talking about.
I think the move to introduce what's called lane rental. So when the utilities are in the road and they're digging them up, they pay for the privilege of doing that. That's started to happen in the some boroughs in London. TfL has had those powers for a while. That's a good thing. And that money could be used to help pay for cleaning the streets. As long as Mhclg doesn't equalize it all away.
But there's something there.
Cadogan, a quite good at taking a degree of ownership of these areas, but that does involve them putting a lot of their own money into them in order to effectively top up the services that are being provided by local authorities. So I think that's an example of good working. And, you know, the the slight frustration is that I think most bids would much rather be spending their levy payers resources on things to promote the area, to make them a bit more fun, to activate the space, to advocate for investment and so on, rather than be cleaning the streets.
But the reality is that because of the nature of the way local government is funded and financed and the resource pressures in other areas, statutory service provision we've heard about, you know, these local authorities are have really do have one hand tied behind their backs. So there's a resourcing issue there, but there's good examples of collaboration. I think areas where we could perhaps improve things using different mechanisms. I think the phone box companies have a lot to answer for. I mean I think it's a total disgrace the way they are allowed to leave these things in the street, which are used for a whole host of behaviours which I won't take the committee through.
And yet for a local authority to get rid of, one can take months, if not years, and cost up to £30,000. So I think actually there's a need for legislative change there, or some sort of punitive charging arrangement so that for every phone box, the provider has to pay £100,000 over and above, you know, what's required from a statutory provision in terms of phone boxes for so many hundred metres and so on, particularly important in rural areas. So I think we need sort of sharper teeth to deal with them on road works, which kind of thing contributes to the some of the problems we're talking about.
I think the move to introduce what's called lane rental. So when the utilities are in the road and they're digging them up, they pay for the privilege of doing that. That's started to happen in the some boroughs in London. TfL has had those powers for a while. That's a good thing. And that money could be used to help pay for cleaning the streets. As long as Mhclg doesn't equalize it all away.
But there's something there.
11:10
11:10
Lord Gascoigne
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Lord Gascoigne
Along with fines, much heavier fines for overrunning works and not doing proper reinstatement. I think you've heard from Create Streets giving evidence and we're big fans of theirs. And then on commercial waste, very briefly, I do think it's an absurdity that basically any company can register and then provide a way service. So we end up with dozens of companies all chasing around to sort of pick up their rubbish, and anything which is half opened or dumped on someone else's bags gets left, and the poor old councils have to literally sweep up behind. Now, interestingly, New York City has just introduced a system of franchising their commercial waste providers, so they now limit the number to each of the five boroughs.
And they've also invested heavily in containerizing waste on street. And I know New York City has a different urban form to many parts of many of our cities, but I do think we could have a bit more imagination, both from a legislative point of view and a sort of fines and and regulatory perspective to tackle some of these things. And, and crucially, it doesn't involve the government having to provide any more money. These are relatively low cost interventions for the government, which we know is, is, you know, is hasn't got much money for and it's got much, you know, other bigger priorities, which we all understand.
So through a combination of regulation and fines and making sure those resources and powers are at the right level of the system, I think we could make some quite big strides on some of these things.
And they've also invested heavily in containerizing waste on street. And I know New York City has a different urban form to many parts of many of our cities, but I do think we could have a bit more imagination, both from a legislative point of view and a sort of fines and and regulatory perspective to tackle some of these things. And, and crucially, it doesn't involve the government having to provide any more money. These are relatively low cost interventions for the government, which we know is, is, you know, is hasn't got much money for and it's got much, you know, other bigger priorities, which we all understand.
So through a combination of regulation and fines and making sure those resources and powers are at the right level of the system, I think we could make some quite big strides on some of these things.
11:11
Lord Cameron of Dillington
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Lord Cameron of Dillington
Thank you. Thank you very much. You indicated that it was comparatively easy when you've got a large estate in one area. Cadogan you mentioned, for instance, and working with the council, but maybe, Carl, you'd like to sort of talk about where you've got individual domestic house owners or businesses in an area and how that can how how collaboration can work in that environment, which is slightly different.
11:12
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Oh, most definitely. I think it's a really important question that I've got a lot to say about. So I think I think first of all, the important point to make is that when you talk about that collaborative approach, the councils are the the best place organisations to do this because they know the local areas better than anyone else. They can be the people that bring all the partners around the table and make sure that the partners listen. Obviously, we need to be able to have the time and capacity to do that as well. I think in terms of particular partnerships, I don't want to keep going back to it to Liverpool one, but I think Liverpool one is an excellent example of how you don't just pump money into an area in terms of throwing capital at an area, and then just leave it and hope that you'll make some money from it.
I think Liverpool one's a really good example of what I would call stewardship. And so they've come to an area, they've developed it, and then they've had continual stewardship of that area. And I think any, you know, any organisation or business that does that with a local authority, you can see the success of it. And you can see probably predominantly more in the last ten years when capital funding has been pumped into certain projects. And that's all that's been allocated to either a council or a local organisation. Actually, it's not had the stewardship that it's it's needed.
And so I think when it comes to, to building those partnerships, we can't just focus on that initial piece of funding. We need to focus on what will be the knock on effect of building that new shiny building or building Liverpool One or building a business in that area. In terms of companies to work with. One of the one of the things I'd like to focus on in your question is the utilities companies in particular, because I think there's there's there's some ways that we can work very, very closely with utilities companies. And I've seen it happen.
A good instance in Liverpool is cadence are usually quite good, but there's other utilities companies that aren't so good. And I've definitely got examples of that as well. But I think I think part of the issue with that is so, you know, Alexander said before, you know, lane rental powers, that's absolutely fantastic. And it's a way that councils can start to hold those utilities companies to account. However, councils can't do that if they haven't got the funding to do it. So, you know, we welcome new powers such as lane rental, but we actually need to be able to enforce those powers.
It's no point kind of pointing our finger at the utilities companies and saying, that's naughty, don't do that if we can't actually act on it. So I think that's a very, very important point to make. And just to kind of round, round this off, I think a particularly important point that I've seen is that in Liverpool and in other cities where I've gone and spoken to businesses. Businesses want to see those those public areas and the public realm well maintained. One, because it means, you know, better footfall for them and it means more business for them.
But two, because, you know, we, we, we tend to take sometimes, don't we, this, this view of business that they're just coming into areas and they just want to make money. And that's the only thing that they want to do. Actually, a lot of the business people that I speak to care a lot about the area they're doing business in and want to do more. You know, I know you call McDonald's a multinational company, but I know there's some instances in some McDonald's in my city and other cities where they will actually go out litter picking.
Now, why isn't that something that is happening across the board? Why isn't it something that potentially we can help bid to, to make that happen? And just in terms of finishing off, I don't want to kind of put another pressure onto bids with that. I think, again, that comes back to that point about councils are the best people to bring those organisations around the table, the bids, the business owners and say, look, how can we form a strategy to make sure our public realm is much better than what it is now?
I think Liverpool one's a really good example of what I would call stewardship. And so they've come to an area, they've developed it, and then they've had continual stewardship of that area. And I think any, you know, any organisation or business that does that with a local authority, you can see the success of it. And you can see probably predominantly more in the last ten years when capital funding has been pumped into certain projects. And that's all that's been allocated to either a council or a local organisation. Actually, it's not had the stewardship that it's it's needed.
And so I think when it comes to, to building those partnerships, we can't just focus on that initial piece of funding. We need to focus on what will be the knock on effect of building that new shiny building or building Liverpool One or building a business in that area. In terms of companies to work with. One of the one of the things I'd like to focus on in your question is the utilities companies in particular, because I think there's there's there's some ways that we can work very, very closely with utilities companies. And I've seen it happen.
A good instance in Liverpool is cadence are usually quite good, but there's other utilities companies that aren't so good. And I've definitely got examples of that as well. But I think I think part of the issue with that is so, you know, Alexander said before, you know, lane rental powers, that's absolutely fantastic. And it's a way that councils can start to hold those utilities companies to account. However, councils can't do that if they haven't got the funding to do it. So, you know, we welcome new powers such as lane rental, but we actually need to be able to enforce those powers.
It's no point kind of pointing our finger at the utilities companies and saying, that's naughty, don't do that if we can't actually act on it. So I think that's a very, very important point to make. And just to kind of round, round this off, I think a particularly important point that I've seen is that in Liverpool and in other cities where I've gone and spoken to businesses. Businesses want to see those those public areas and the public realm well maintained. One, because it means, you know, better footfall for them and it means more business for them.
But two, because, you know, we, we, we tend to take sometimes, don't we, this, this view of business that they're just coming into areas and they just want to make money. And that's the only thing that they want to do. Actually, a lot of the business people that I speak to care a lot about the area they're doing business in and want to do more. You know, I know you call McDonald's a multinational company, but I know there's some instances in some McDonald's in my city and other cities where they will actually go out litter picking.
Now, why isn't that something that is happening across the board? Why isn't it something that potentially we can help bid to, to make that happen? And just in terms of finishing off, I don't want to kind of put another pressure onto bids with that. I think, again, that comes back to that point about councils are the best people to bring those organisations around the table, the bids, the business owners and say, look, how can we form a strategy to make sure our public realm is much better than what it is now?
11:16
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Yeah. So I think we are we are long term stewards, and we have a long term stake in the areas and places that where we are positioned. Maybe three sort of small examples. I think the gentleman picked up on waste. So I think one of the things we found was there were lots of different operators coming to collect waste from lots of different organisations. That's vehicles, that's traffic that's actually polluting the space. So what we try to do is identify a provider, zero to landfill, where we can look to collate our occupiers to that common goal and try and use that same provider.
So having that consistency of time collection, ensuring that all the waste is collecting at the same time, plus working and dovetailing with Westminster Council and their provider. So I think one point is as as stewards, we are proactively looking at how we can engage with our tenants and occupiers and provide a solution whilst working with them , where we do an annual or biannual community wellbeing survey, and one of the areas where we've all seen a significant increases around homelessness, which actually causes anti-social behaviour and makes some of the public spaces feel in some parts unsafe to use.
So we've created a people Positive fund where we've looked at our occupiers, our residents, our service partners who work with us to actually go out and support the passage of Saint Mungo's on a dedicated patrol, of which we allow our customers and our residents to be able to log issues with homelessness and anti-social behaviour, knowing that actually in the background, we had some the passage in Saint Mungo's, who are going to go out and try and build a relationship with these individuals to then hopefully get to a point where there's trust built and we can help them off the street.
But not only that, what more can we do once we've removed them to give them opportunities of work experience, employment opportunities, just to see. So it's not just the removal of the problem, it's actually seeing how can we see this through and what more can we do at the other side? I think technology plays a huge part of managing and dealing with public spaces. So I want to refer to a sort of a joint collaborative approach to some sound and noise vehicle cameras down in Kensington, which was part of the Belgravia and Knightsbridge Police Forum, where the local community had identified an area where the supercars noise, speedy cars and actually working with the police and the council, who were excellent.
They put a mobile sound monitoring CCTV camera right at the heart of where the problem is, and actually, quite quickly, within 11 days, 130 fines, vehicles now actually being confiscated. So it's working in collaboration. We know that the police don't have enough resource to permanent police permanently police that area. So technology, we have to be able to utilize and utilize data to help solve some of these problems.
So having that consistency of time collection, ensuring that all the waste is collecting at the same time, plus working and dovetailing with Westminster Council and their provider. So I think one point is as as stewards, we are proactively looking at how we can engage with our tenants and occupiers and provide a solution whilst working with them , where we do an annual or biannual community wellbeing survey, and one of the areas where we've all seen a significant increases around homelessness, which actually causes anti-social behaviour and makes some of the public spaces feel in some parts unsafe to use.
So we've created a people Positive fund where we've looked at our occupiers, our residents, our service partners who work with us to actually go out and support the passage of Saint Mungo's on a dedicated patrol, of which we allow our customers and our residents to be able to log issues with homelessness and anti-social behaviour, knowing that actually in the background, we had some the passage in Saint Mungo's, who are going to go out and try and build a relationship with these individuals to then hopefully get to a point where there's trust built and we can help them off the street.
But not only that, what more can we do once we've removed them to give them opportunities of work experience, employment opportunities, just to see. So it's not just the removal of the problem, it's actually seeing how can we see this through and what more can we do at the other side? I think technology plays a huge part of managing and dealing with public spaces. So I want to refer to a sort of a joint collaborative approach to some sound and noise vehicle cameras down in Kensington, which was part of the Belgravia and Knightsbridge Police Forum, where the local community had identified an area where the supercars noise, speedy cars and actually working with the police and the council, who were excellent.
They put a mobile sound monitoring CCTV camera right at the heart of where the problem is, and actually, quite quickly, within 11 days, 130 fines, vehicles now actually being confiscated. So it's working in collaboration. We know that the police don't have enough resource to permanent police permanently police that area. So technology, we have to be able to utilize and utilize data to help solve some of these problems.
11:19
11:19
Lord Bassam of Brighton
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Lord Bassam of Brighton
Oh, right. Yes. And some question gets to the sort of heart of some of this for me. And I, I'm wondering, how do we get that ownership and collaboration that tackles the problem? In my mind, I, I have Brighton station, right? You come out of Brighton station and it's a mess. It's a mess because nobody takes any ownership for that space. It's an interchange between the trains and the buses that pass through it. It's an area where a lot of homeless people, you know, gather because, you know, there's an opportunity there to, to, to, to pick up a bit of money, I guess, and food.
There's a whole load of fast food outlets and not so fast food outlets, and there are litter bins and there are pavements which are not very well looked after, although they're actually in terms of quality. Very good. So you've got British Transport Police, you've got bus company, you've got the rail company, you've got the council and you've got private operators picking up trade waste. And I don't know how many private operators pick up trade waste from, you know, probably what are maybe 20 different outlets there? It's a problem I used to tangle with when I was city leader, and I found it incredibly hard to get to grips with.
So who should own that problem is the question for me, because if you just leave it to the council, fair enough. They've got some statutory responsibilities. But for me, the other players in that the other agencies in there should also be taking their responsibility seriously. But someone's got to make it happen. And who should that someone be who should instil that ethos and that ownership? Because if we don't, it seems to me that that area is going to carry on being like it is.
There's a whole load of fast food outlets and not so fast food outlets, and there are litter bins and there are pavements which are not very well looked after, although they're actually in terms of quality. Very good. So you've got British Transport Police, you've got bus company, you've got the rail company, you've got the council and you've got private operators picking up trade waste. And I don't know how many private operators pick up trade waste from, you know, probably what are maybe 20 different outlets there? It's a problem I used to tangle with when I was city leader, and I found it incredibly hard to get to grips with.
So who should own that problem is the question for me, because if you just leave it to the council, fair enough. They've got some statutory responsibilities. But for me, the other players in that the other agencies in there should also be taking their responsibility seriously. But someone's got to make it happen. And who should that someone be who should instil that ethos and that ownership? Because if we don't, it seems to me that that area is going to carry on being like it is.
11:21
11:21
11:21
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Go with it again, give you a give you a real life example. So there was the same issue with Birmingham City Council and Birmingham New Street Station. Yeah. It was it was in a in a terrible state. There was a lot of islands, there was sexual assaults happening. There was a lot of anti-social behaviour, a lot of litter being dropped, a lot of waste. And the council come together with British Transport Police and also Network Rail. And the council put the responsibility onto Network Rail. Or maybe they didn't put the responsibility on to Network Rail, maybe Network Rail come to the council and said the council, we're going to take responsibility.
And there was a certain amount of funding put in place, which allowed us as a as a private company to work on behalf of the council and use the council's powers around the railway station and also within the railway station. So we provided proactive littering enforcement teams, and also we provided 16 officers to deal with anti-social behaviour and carry out enforcement using powers under using public spaces protection orders and also community protection notices as well. And that collaboration worked really well and within the matter of months. And you could go and speak to Network Rail about this.
It really cleaned up the area and the station and made the station a far better place to, to visit and go into. But we were coming across and this is where we needed the police support. We were coming across searching people and they had machetes down their trousers and we were , we lost count of of the amount of homeless that had had an overdose. And we've, you know, our officers have saved their lives by giving them an injection and bringing them back and so on. And but there was a lot of stuff that happened during that operation.
Which, which really just just cleaned the plate, but it wouldn't have happened without the funding because a lot of the contracts that that we are enforcing at the moment are self-funded. Whereas in disrespect, this is a this is a particular service that that requires funding in order to put the boots on the ground and the visible presence.
And there was a certain amount of funding put in place, which allowed us as a as a private company to work on behalf of the council and use the council's powers around the railway station and also within the railway station. So we provided proactive littering enforcement teams, and also we provided 16 officers to deal with anti-social behaviour and carry out enforcement using powers under using public spaces protection orders and also community protection notices as well. And that collaboration worked really well and within the matter of months. And you could go and speak to Network Rail about this.
It really cleaned up the area and the station and made the station a far better place to, to visit and go into. But we were coming across and this is where we needed the police support. We were coming across searching people and they had machetes down their trousers and we were , we lost count of of the amount of homeless that had had an overdose. And we've, you know, our officers have saved their lives by giving them an injection and bringing them back and so on. And but there was a lot of stuff that happened during that operation.
Which, which really just just cleaned the plate, but it wouldn't have happened without the funding because a lot of the contracts that that we are enforcing at the moment are self-funded. Whereas in disrespect, this is a this is a particular service that that requires funding in order to put the boots on the ground and the visible presence.
11:23
Lord Gascoigne
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Lord Gascoigne
Thank you. Alexandra, you want to say something? Yeah, sure. So I think I agree with everything that's been said. I think I think perhaps a bit more structurally, there's sort of 2 or 3 things that we could sort of do to help address the problem. And the problem is, is, was, if I may say so, was very elegantly articulated. And it's one that many people will recognise, particularly in our in our major cities. I mean, one of the issues is, I mean, I know everybody's talking about devolution, right? And after 30 years of asking for it, our sort of ship has come in and we'll see what happens.
But there is a genuine issue around the devolution agenda here. I mean, if you look at the legislative powers of, say, New York City, compared to any major local authority, Birmingham, Liverpool, wherever London, local authorities, it's orders of magnitude greater. I mean, you could argue it's too great, but their ability is an authority to. And with the mayor and the five councils, the boroughs, to legislate on issues that we've been talking about is a real thing. So they can decide to reduce the number of commercial waste providers in their city to franchise it, to put it, you know, containerize waste to bear down on the roadworks problems here.
That doesn't happen because those powers are held centrally. And of course, because different areas have different priorities and different needs, different stresses and strains, trying to get the attention of senior civil servants and indeed ministers to think about problems which might be quite, quite chronic in one area when they're not really affecting other parts of the country in great numbers is a real challenge. I mean, if you take the pedicab example and I realize pedicabs are not street clutter as such, but they're moving street clutter, it took ten years for that legislation to get passed.
I just think there's something we could do there around whatever form local government's going to end up with, with the reorganisation that is or isn't happening, you know, strengthening powers for local authorities on those sorts of issues within a framework with safeguards would be a very powerful thing. I mean, if I may just very quickly give you one example. We saw in the last ten years this explosion in the provision of fibre networks . That meant the same streets were dug up 4 or 5 times by different fibre networks, by the way, a number of them which have now gone bust and are now being bought out by the others.
Now, I'm sure Ofcom economists, good people probably thought this is fine, this is the market, this is creative destruction, whatever you want to call it. The externalities of that process on everybody who lives, works, visits those streets was very, very high. And in a more rational world, New Zealand, parts of the United States, believe it or not, they have a dig one policy which says, all right, you want to put your fibre networks in so you'll dig one trench, everybody piles in and then it's done. So it's a good example of how central government needs to respond more to the local needs of the people and the areas that we're talking about.
And the other thing is we we cannot get away from the issue of resourcing. And I know every time people appear in front of committees, they'll say, you know, government needs to give everybody more money to solve problems. But it is a real thing here. And if you take Islington, I left my piece of paper, my crib sheet this morning, which probably means I'll be shorter than I would have otherwise have been. But if you look at Islington, Islington has a budget of 500 million a year, and it spends £7 million a year on cleaning its streets, okay.
And it's competing. That resource is competing with with very important services send packages, adult social care and all the rest of it that businesses who are paying business rates will never see. Okay. So if I've got a business paying £1 million in business rates, 700,000 of that goes to national government, and that 30,000 that's left may be £1,500 is being spent on cleaning the streets, which is why the bids are important, because we probably spend as much as the council does on that basis. And the trick here is to give local authorities a stake in these areas through genuine exposure to an increase in the tax base, which would then produce the resources to allow them to provide better services.
Because even with the reforms as proposed, Mhclg is going to keep a very heavy hand on the tiller through the process of equalisation and top ups and tariffs, to not really allow that sort of signal to come to to come through strongly. And the final point I'd make, chair, is just in relation to the example that was given around noise and cars and all the rest of it. The other challenge in many urban areas is displacement. So we get a very effective policy for dealing with noisy cars over to the west of the city. And indeed Westminster, I think, collaborated with K and C on that programme and credit to them for doing it.
But I know as a resident of Fitzrovia in Camden, we now have people racing cars around the streets at night, and I have a nasty feeling they haven't come very far in order to do that. So the question of administrative boundaries, which are very, very complicated and a real challenge in central London, where we've effectively got 11 planning authorities, all with a sort of dairylea slice of what is actually the centre of a major world city creates, I think, major challenges, even where everybody's trying to do the right thing. Thank you very much. That's been very good.
If you want to ask a very quick question.
But there is a genuine issue around the devolution agenda here. I mean, if you look at the legislative powers of, say, New York City, compared to any major local authority, Birmingham, Liverpool, wherever London, local authorities, it's orders of magnitude greater. I mean, you could argue it's too great, but their ability is an authority to. And with the mayor and the five councils, the boroughs, to legislate on issues that we've been talking about is a real thing. So they can decide to reduce the number of commercial waste providers in their city to franchise it, to put it, you know, containerize waste to bear down on the roadworks problems here.
That doesn't happen because those powers are held centrally. And of course, because different areas have different priorities and different needs, different stresses and strains, trying to get the attention of senior civil servants and indeed ministers to think about problems which might be quite, quite chronic in one area when they're not really affecting other parts of the country in great numbers is a real challenge. I mean, if you take the pedicab example and I realize pedicabs are not street clutter as such, but they're moving street clutter, it took ten years for that legislation to get passed.
I just think there's something we could do there around whatever form local government's going to end up with, with the reorganisation that is or isn't happening, you know, strengthening powers for local authorities on those sorts of issues within a framework with safeguards would be a very powerful thing. I mean, if I may just very quickly give you one example. We saw in the last ten years this explosion in the provision of fibre networks . That meant the same streets were dug up 4 or 5 times by different fibre networks, by the way, a number of them which have now gone bust and are now being bought out by the others.
Now, I'm sure Ofcom economists, good people probably thought this is fine, this is the market, this is creative destruction, whatever you want to call it. The externalities of that process on everybody who lives, works, visits those streets was very, very high. And in a more rational world, New Zealand, parts of the United States, believe it or not, they have a dig one policy which says, all right, you want to put your fibre networks in so you'll dig one trench, everybody piles in and then it's done. So it's a good example of how central government needs to respond more to the local needs of the people and the areas that we're talking about.
And the other thing is we we cannot get away from the issue of resourcing. And I know every time people appear in front of committees, they'll say, you know, government needs to give everybody more money to solve problems. But it is a real thing here. And if you take Islington, I left my piece of paper, my crib sheet this morning, which probably means I'll be shorter than I would have otherwise have been. But if you look at Islington, Islington has a budget of 500 million a year, and it spends £7 million a year on cleaning its streets, okay.
And it's competing. That resource is competing with with very important services send packages, adult social care and all the rest of it that businesses who are paying business rates will never see. Okay. So if I've got a business paying £1 million in business rates, 700,000 of that goes to national government, and that 30,000 that's left may be £1,500 is being spent on cleaning the streets, which is why the bids are important, because we probably spend as much as the council does on that basis. And the trick here is to give local authorities a stake in these areas through genuine exposure to an increase in the tax base, which would then produce the resources to allow them to provide better services.
Because even with the reforms as proposed, Mhclg is going to keep a very heavy hand on the tiller through the process of equalisation and top ups and tariffs, to not really allow that sort of signal to come to to come through strongly. And the final point I'd make, chair, is just in relation to the example that was given around noise and cars and all the rest of it. The other challenge in many urban areas is displacement. So we get a very effective policy for dealing with noisy cars over to the west of the city. And indeed Westminster, I think, collaborated with K and C on that programme and credit to them for doing it.
But I know as a resident of Fitzrovia in Camden, we now have people racing cars around the streets at night, and I have a nasty feeling they haven't come very far in order to do that. So the question of administrative boundaries, which are very, very complicated and a real challenge in central London, where we've effectively got 11 planning authorities, all with a sort of dairylea slice of what is actually the centre of a major world city creates, I think, major challenges, even where everybody's trying to do the right thing. Thank you very much. That's been very good.
If you want to ask a very quick question.
11:29
Baroness Griffin of Princethorpe
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Baroness Griffin of Princethorpe
Very quick. Thank you all for being here. Just Alexander, just to say, I agree with absolutely everything that you have just said. We did call, but many decades ago have a dig one policy in Liverpool, which wasn't just fibre, it was actually about all the utilities, as you say, if you're digging up the road pile in. But it was only ever a kind of way of working. It was never legally enforceable. So my question is, can you give us maybe not now, maybe in written evidence, examples of good practice. And Alexander, you've already started to do that whereby we can actually have legislative enforcement of, for instance, dig one.
And the second part again, maybe in writing. Thank you, chair, for your indulgence is I think there's a difference between where we have unitary governance and where we have, for instance, town councils, district councils and county councils. So what would your. And Carl. Absolutely, all of you, what would your recommendations be in terms of what we need to do in terms of the devolution to actually get this stuff right?
And the second part again, maybe in writing. Thank you, chair, for your indulgence is I think there's a difference between where we have unitary governance and where we have, for instance, town councils, district councils and county councils. So what would your. And Carl. Absolutely, all of you, what would your recommendations be in terms of what we need to do in terms of the devolution to actually get this stuff right?
11:30
Lord Gascoigne
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Lord Gascoigne
What I'm going to do is to agree with Theresa is actually. And I say the question to all of you, really the examples that works. But if you could put that in writing , or I suspect it may come up in due course, but it's a good point, particularly some of the stuff that John was talking about, passing it on to another borough, I'm going to move on, but but please do. I mean, on that and anything. Please do get get back to us. I'm going to pass on to Baroness Lawrence, if I may just move the question area along.
11:30
11:30
Baroness Lawrence of Clarendon
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Baroness Lawrence of Clarendon
Thank you, chair, and thank you all for being here. My question I know that John talks about a lot of around enforcement. So my question. My question is our enforcement powers for maintaining high quality public space effective? And are those responsible for maintaining the public space suitable, equipped and capable to make use of their of their enforcement powers?
11:31
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
You want me to start with that one? Yeah. I would say that the powers that we use are broadly there. Where there is a gap is, is that with a litter and a fence, refusing to give your name and address to an authorised officer is a criminal offence, but with public spaces protection orders, it's not. There's a gap in the legislation there. And I believe that that gap could could be closed because at the moment if someone commits an anti-social behaviour offence, they can they can just walk away from you and refuse to give you details.
And there's no consequence to that. So that would definitely be where I feel that there is a gap. And then on whether, in my respect, is whether councils are equipped to to enforce the legislation again, where the struggle is, is technology. For me, when a penalty is being being issued, that's probably the easy part. The difficult part is the actual follow up after the penalty has been issued, because if you haven't got the technology to first and foremost confirm the identity of an offender, then issued a penalty on the spot. A lot of councils can't issue fixed penalty notices on the spot.
It has to be done through the post or has to be written out on a book, which means then they have to input that data back to a case management system when they get back to the office, which again, takes a lot of time to do that. But then the follow up is that reminder letters are sent out as a first, second, third reminder that there's enough payment options for offenders to make the payment so they can pay by cash, automated telephone, web payments, and then also that there's someone on the end of the line that can actually speak to someone that's struggling with that and take the payment off off that person as well.
Given the opportunity for offenders to make representations and those representations being immediately acknowledged, reviewed, investigated and closed down, and then if a penalty has been issued to someone who just simply can't afford to pay the penalty, but they can prove that they've got hardship issues for that, is that we we extend the period to make that penalty, to pay that penalty, because some of these penalties are really expensive. Some of the councils that I'm working with are penalty for dropping a cigarette butt on the floor is £500. And there's some, you know, it could be a person out there who simply just can't put food on the table, and they're expected to pay that £500.
So it would be good to to ensure that there that the systems are in place. So a council can give an extended period for that person to pay. And then what's also really important is, is that if a penalty has been issued, that it only closed down by either being paid, written off, a cancelled audit referred to prosecution. So for every penalty that's issued, if the offender doesn't pay, then a a prosecution file needs to be put together for that particular offence and that person would would be prosecuted for that. But again, councils need the systems to be able to go through with that type of process .
And some of the systems that they're having to use are just legacy based systems, whereby they're being asked to adapt an enforcement service to whatever system that council has in place at that time. And I guess that's where sometimes they're leaning on a private company like ourselves, because we come along with the systems as well, and the complete process for a, for a council to copy and replicate, I guess.
And there's no consequence to that. So that would definitely be where I feel that there is a gap. And then on whether, in my respect, is whether councils are equipped to to enforce the legislation again, where the struggle is, is technology. For me, when a penalty is being being issued, that's probably the easy part. The difficult part is the actual follow up after the penalty has been issued, because if you haven't got the technology to first and foremost confirm the identity of an offender, then issued a penalty on the spot. A lot of councils can't issue fixed penalty notices on the spot.
It has to be done through the post or has to be written out on a book, which means then they have to input that data back to a case management system when they get back to the office, which again, takes a lot of time to do that. But then the follow up is that reminder letters are sent out as a first, second, third reminder that there's enough payment options for offenders to make the payment so they can pay by cash, automated telephone, web payments, and then also that there's someone on the end of the line that can actually speak to someone that's struggling with that and take the payment off off that person as well.
Given the opportunity for offenders to make representations and those representations being immediately acknowledged, reviewed, investigated and closed down, and then if a penalty has been issued to someone who just simply can't afford to pay the penalty, but they can prove that they've got hardship issues for that, is that we we extend the period to make that penalty, to pay that penalty, because some of these penalties are really expensive. Some of the councils that I'm working with are penalty for dropping a cigarette butt on the floor is £500. And there's some, you know, it could be a person out there who simply just can't put food on the table, and they're expected to pay that £500.
So it would be good to to ensure that there that the systems are in place. So a council can give an extended period for that person to pay. And then what's also really important is, is that if a penalty has been issued, that it only closed down by either being paid, written off, a cancelled audit referred to prosecution. So for every penalty that's issued, if the offender doesn't pay, then a a prosecution file needs to be put together for that particular offence and that person would would be prosecuted for that. But again, councils need the systems to be able to go through with that type of process .
And some of the systems that they're having to use are just legacy based systems, whereby they're being asked to adapt an enforcement service to whatever system that council has in place at that time. And I guess that's where sometimes they're leaning on a private company like ourselves, because we come along with the systems as well, and the complete process for a, for a council to copy and replicate, I guess.
11:34
Baroness Lawrence of Clarendon
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Baroness Lawrence of Clarendon
I assume as if the powers it's not really working in respect of when you issue a fine and to collect the fine, the power's not working. So it sounds to me what you're saying, which is, I think all of you are saying is to collaborate together in order to make things happen. And the data collection, which is what you all need in order to, to move forward. I think there are times on the news they talk about somebody, whatever it is, dump something and they use the address to trace that person and for the fine to be issued, because otherwise if the address is not there, you're not able to do that.
So it's really difficult. I mean, you know, listening to all four of you talking about to, to enforce the power.
So it's really difficult. I mean, you know, listening to all four of you talking about to, to enforce the power.
11:35
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
And that's the thing as well, is that so if if I stop someone in the street and I'm going to issue them with a fixed penalty notice, my powers are that I can, if it's under littering, that I can ask them for name and address. We ask for data. If the power doesn't stipulate that that they have to give data. But more often than not, people will give you date of birth. Now, if they refuse to give me that information, then I can make a decision on not actually issuing the fixed penalty notice of that person.
I can put that person straight to prosecution, which is a maximum fine of 2500 pounds. But then also because they've refused to give me their name and address, or they've given me the incorrect name and address, they can also be prosecuted for a further £1,000. Now, when you explain that to to a member of the public, more often than not, they will give you their details because they know they've done wrong. They know they've dropped litter on the floor, and they're just going to take the consequence and give you their details. But with public spaces protection orders, we don't have that power.
And if we try and use the littering powers or our verbal persuasion based on the littering powers, then it's, it's, it's, it's against the law. So you can't do it. So that's why I'm, I'm stipulating that's where I believe there's a gap in the powers. Now there is CSAs, which is the Community Safety accreditation scheme. God, I was hoping I didn't forget that there. And what that does is, is that gives an authorised officer that those powers under the anti-social behaviour, but not all, all officers have those powers. Then also in order to get those powers, you have to have a clear criminal record.
You can't have any debts or any of that type of stuff. And if you imagine the amount of officers that there are out there, there will be officers out there who do have a little bit of debt, or they have a skeleton in the closet and they can't have CSAs or they won't be accredited. Whereas if the legislation just had that one small line copying what the littering legislation has got in it, then that would be a huge help to to the frontline enforcement teams.
I can put that person straight to prosecution, which is a maximum fine of 2500 pounds. But then also because they've refused to give me their name and address, or they've given me the incorrect name and address, they can also be prosecuted for a further £1,000. Now, when you explain that to to a member of the public, more often than not, they will give you their details because they know they've done wrong. They know they've dropped litter on the floor, and they're just going to take the consequence and give you their details. But with public spaces protection orders, we don't have that power.
And if we try and use the littering powers or our verbal persuasion based on the littering powers, then it's, it's, it's, it's against the law. So you can't do it. So that's why I'm, I'm stipulating that's where I believe there's a gap in the powers. Now there is CSAs, which is the Community Safety accreditation scheme. God, I was hoping I didn't forget that there. And what that does is, is that gives an authorised officer that those powers under the anti-social behaviour, but not all, all officers have those powers. Then also in order to get those powers, you have to have a clear criminal record.
You can't have any debts or any of that type of stuff. And if you imagine the amount of officers that there are out there, there will be officers out there who do have a little bit of debt, or they have a skeleton in the closet and they can't have CSAs or they won't be accredited. Whereas if the legislation just had that one small line copying what the littering legislation has got in it, then that would be a huge help to to the frontline enforcement teams.
11:37
Lord Gascoigne
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Lord Gascoigne
Yes, if I if I may. I mean, I think, you know, we've ended up in a world where we have with different organisations, including bids, including my, my bids patrolling the streets and, but, but I have to say there is I think there is quite a pretty clear hierarchy of what, in the case of businesses and others can talk for residents of what their aspiration would be, I mean, they are first and foremost, they want to see police uniform presence in their streets. They just, you know, that's what they want time and time and time again.
That's what they ask for. And, you know, I know operational policing is not part of the scope of this. And we mustn't get into it because it's an independent issue. But the reality is that if you look at the way the Palace of Westminster is policed, or indeed New Scotland Yard is policed, it's policed using high profile presence of uniformed officers on a continuous basis. And I think sometimes our levy payers think, well, if it works over there, why are we always told it doesn't work over here? So their aspiration would be for uniform presence.
I think in terms of that hierarchy. And I know the police can't do everything right because of the way we do it. But having said that, go to New York. New York is a city of about 9 million people, has about 30,000 police officers. You always see the police in New York, it's about 30,000 police officers and 9 million people in London, bigger city spatially, but even so. So that's one thing. I think the second thing is the local authority level in terms of their enforcement, I think is also recognised and seen as, you know, part of of the system, the state, the government system.
And they're sort of seen as a very important and legitimate part of the equation. My slight. And then you've got the bid patrols, right. And in our case, we have a sort of deliberate, conscious policy of not getting involved physically. So we have what's called a hands off policy in other areas, particularly where you've got chronic shoplifting, I think you probably have to go further. You have to use some of the powers that that John's mentioned to sort of actually help prevent some of these things going on. But there's a sort of, you know, there's a sort of a bit of a dance that goes on between these three agencies.
And then, of course, you have rightly you have those who are looking after areas which are either shopping centres or indeed areas of the great estate, universities and so forth. So you've got 4 or 5 of these sort of entities all trying to do the same thing. You then add into that the fact that, as been mentioned, if it's an area around a station, which is typically where stations attract lots of interesting forms of behaviour, you've then got a jurisdiction with the British Transport Police, which is a, you know, a left over from from the Nationalisation Act in the 1940s, who they're not technically allowed to go so far and so on and so on.
So and then you've got boundaries, you've got borough boundaries, as I've mentioned before, and indeed policing boundaries. So Westminster is in a different borough command unit from Camden, even though Camden in the west, Westminster are part of the West End. So but what I would say is if you look at how local authorities. And. Forgive me for saying this, Carl, if you look at how local authorities enforce parking, okay, they're pretty good at it. They're pretty ruthless at it. If you leave your car, you know, in the wrong place for so long. Rightly so. May I say they will be on you, you know, as soon as possible.
And I do just wonder whether that tells us something about incentives and structures, because if we could police and enforce against litter and to a certain extent, it's already happening. I actually worry some of those fines are too high. And I also worry that the people who get fined are people who are not soft targets, but people who aren't likely to swing for you. So there's another issue there as to who do we choose to fined for dropping litter. But I do wonder that if we could channel the same level of enthusiasm and sense of urgency that we use for parking using technology, they all know everybody's number plates.
They're not residents. They are residents. They've gone too fast. They've gone through this sign that channel, that energy into some of the other ills we're talking about. Wow, wouldn't that change the world?
That's what they ask for. And, you know, I know operational policing is not part of the scope of this. And we mustn't get into it because it's an independent issue. But the reality is that if you look at the way the Palace of Westminster is policed, or indeed New Scotland Yard is policed, it's policed using high profile presence of uniformed officers on a continuous basis. And I think sometimes our levy payers think, well, if it works over there, why are we always told it doesn't work over here? So their aspiration would be for uniform presence.
I think in terms of that hierarchy. And I know the police can't do everything right because of the way we do it. But having said that, go to New York. New York is a city of about 9 million people, has about 30,000 police officers. You always see the police in New York, it's about 30,000 police officers and 9 million people in London, bigger city spatially, but even so. So that's one thing. I think the second thing is the local authority level in terms of their enforcement, I think is also recognised and seen as, you know, part of of the system, the state, the government system.
And they're sort of seen as a very important and legitimate part of the equation. My slight. And then you've got the bid patrols, right. And in our case, we have a sort of deliberate, conscious policy of not getting involved physically. So we have what's called a hands off policy in other areas, particularly where you've got chronic shoplifting, I think you probably have to go further. You have to use some of the powers that that John's mentioned to sort of actually help prevent some of these things going on. But there's a sort of, you know, there's a sort of a bit of a dance that goes on between these three agencies.
And then, of course, you have rightly you have those who are looking after areas which are either shopping centres or indeed areas of the great estate, universities and so forth. So you've got 4 or 5 of these sort of entities all trying to do the same thing. You then add into that the fact that, as been mentioned, if it's an area around a station, which is typically where stations attract lots of interesting forms of behaviour, you've then got a jurisdiction with the British Transport Police, which is a, you know, a left over from from the Nationalisation Act in the 1940s, who they're not technically allowed to go so far and so on and so on.
So and then you've got boundaries, you've got borough boundaries, as I've mentioned before, and indeed policing boundaries. So Westminster is in a different borough command unit from Camden, even though Camden in the west, Westminster are part of the West End. So but what I would say is if you look at how local authorities. And. Forgive me for saying this, Carl, if you look at how local authorities enforce parking, okay, they're pretty good at it. They're pretty ruthless at it. If you leave your car, you know, in the wrong place for so long. Rightly so. May I say they will be on you, you know, as soon as possible.
And I do just wonder whether that tells us something about incentives and structures, because if we could police and enforce against litter and to a certain extent, it's already happening. I actually worry some of those fines are too high. And I also worry that the people who get fined are people who are not soft targets, but people who aren't likely to swing for you. So there's another issue there as to who do we choose to fined for dropping litter. But I do wonder that if we could channel the same level of enthusiasm and sense of urgency that we use for parking using technology, they all know everybody's number plates.
They're not residents. They are residents. They've gone too fast. They've gone through this sign that channel, that energy into some of the other ills we're talking about. Wow, wouldn't that change the world?
11:41
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Yeah. And if I could add to that as well, on park and parking as a statutory requirement, every council has to have a parking enforcement team. Whereas environmental enforcement, it's not a statutory requirement. The councils pick and choose, but that also goes with the technology. There's not a council that has a parking service that doesn't have the technology to back that service up, whereas in environmental enforcement, they're using legacy investigation systems that just aren't fit for purpose.
11:42
11:42
11:42
11:42
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Because I actually, I actually completely agree with what Alexander and John have just said there. And I think it's a fair point. You do see that in councils. I know in in my local authority at the moment, there's been a huge increase in enforcement. And I think that's also bringing a lot of money into the council. And the reason I don't push back on that is because there's a very there's a very reasonable reason for that. And I go back to the the fact that councils are struggling to find pockets of money here, there and everywhere.
And that's the reason that they do do that. You know, part of that money has got to go back into enforcement. But councils are looking for every single avenue possible in order to fund this, which is it's an important point for me to make on on your question, which is a very good one. You know that the priority shouldn't be simply adding offences for people. The priority should actually be making those powers strong enough , and given the councils enough capacity to enforce them so that people actually go, hang on a minute, I'm not going to let it any more.
Hang on a minute. I'm not going to park in a in a bad place anymore. That's what we need. You know, you can give us all the powers in the world if we haven't got the people patrolling the streets. There's nothing that we can do with those powers. I just wanted to make a few other points as well, if you'll indulge me, just very briefly, on some other points that Alexander made earlier. And just to say to Baroness Griffin, there is a really good example in Lincolnshire where they brought together, they had a charter for how organisations would work together.
And so they couldn't they couldn't enforce it, obviously, because it was something that was only in that local area. But that's a really good example if you want to take a look at that. And then just on what Alexander was saying about about devolution. So I view the government's current trajectory on devolution as not devolution. And you might say that's obvious for me to say that as a local councillor, I think that true devolution means power at the lowest possible level. It means power to every individual and that means town councils, parish councils, it means borough councils and cities.
Exactly. And some funding to go along with that. Please and thank you. But if we did, if we did have those real powers at the lowest possible level, we would be able to make laws that are appropriate for certain areas. As Alexander said before, you know, there's certain areas where tougher fines would actually make a change. There's certain areas where that certainly wouldn't be the issue. But if we give those areas that power, we'd be able to empower them to, to, to take action. And then it was just one last point on, and I think me and Alexander will be in agreement on this.
It's just to say on the the new visitor levy as well. And this is also part of devolution. It's kind of those those new powers and that new funding can be used in a really, really good way. However, I would say be careful what you wish for because there's going to be areas. If we take Merseyside, for example, Liverpool is going to be the massive generator of that funding and if that can be used all around the city region, then it's not going to be used to deal with the problems that those businesses face. And I would personally say a very good and successful way of dealing with those issues at the moment is the accommodation bid.
So in Liverpool, the bid raises money from hoteliers and then it goes back into the public realm. It goes back into making those spaces better spaces to live, work and play. And I think that's really, really important and something that I would really press this committee to say to government, you know, when it comes to that levy, it can be good, but please be careful what you wish for.
And that's the reason that they do do that. You know, part of that money has got to go back into enforcement. But councils are looking for every single avenue possible in order to fund this, which is it's an important point for me to make on on your question, which is a very good one. You know that the priority shouldn't be simply adding offences for people. The priority should actually be making those powers strong enough , and given the councils enough capacity to enforce them so that people actually go, hang on a minute, I'm not going to let it any more.
Hang on a minute. I'm not going to park in a in a bad place anymore. That's what we need. You know, you can give us all the powers in the world if we haven't got the people patrolling the streets. There's nothing that we can do with those powers. I just wanted to make a few other points as well, if you'll indulge me, just very briefly, on some other points that Alexander made earlier. And just to say to Baroness Griffin, there is a really good example in Lincolnshire where they brought together, they had a charter for how organisations would work together.
And so they couldn't they couldn't enforce it, obviously, because it was something that was only in that local area. But that's a really good example if you want to take a look at that. And then just on what Alexander was saying about about devolution. So I view the government's current trajectory on devolution as not devolution. And you might say that's obvious for me to say that as a local councillor, I think that true devolution means power at the lowest possible level. It means power to every individual and that means town councils, parish councils, it means borough councils and cities.
Exactly. And some funding to go along with that. Please and thank you. But if we did, if we did have those real powers at the lowest possible level, we would be able to make laws that are appropriate for certain areas. As Alexander said before, you know, there's certain areas where tougher fines would actually make a change. There's certain areas where that certainly wouldn't be the issue. But if we give those areas that power, we'd be able to empower them to, to, to take action. And then it was just one last point on, and I think me and Alexander will be in agreement on this.
It's just to say on the the new visitor levy as well. And this is also part of devolution. It's kind of those those new powers and that new funding can be used in a really, really good way. However, I would say be careful what you wish for because there's going to be areas. If we take Merseyside, for example, Liverpool is going to be the massive generator of that funding and if that can be used all around the city region, then it's not going to be used to deal with the problems that those businesses face. And I would personally say a very good and successful way of dealing with those issues at the moment is the accommodation bid.
So in Liverpool, the bid raises money from hoteliers and then it goes back into the public realm. It goes back into making those spaces better spaces to live, work and play. And I think that's really, really important and something that I would really press this committee to say to government, you know, when it comes to that levy, it can be good, but please be careful what you wish for.
11:46
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Yeah, I agree, I think there are the powers in place, but I think unfortunately, due to a lack of budget or resource, it's very difficult to implement and adhere to those. We're seeing how occupiers actually having to fill a void. So coming out, washing down the street front pavements before they open up for the day because that's critical for their ongoing success. I completely agree with the gentleman in relation to technology and how that's really helped with parking, enforcement, congestion, etc. I really believe that technology has to form part of the longer term solution. We don't have the ability to have a visible police presence on every street or a street warden.
So we need to utilize technology to really help combat some of the challenges we face and actually make people just feel like they're going to a space that is being watched and looked at, actually gives you a sense of security and actually makes you feel like you will behave in an appropriate way, that you are being watched and, and, and that that space is being appropriately watched and considered.
So we need to utilize technology to really help combat some of the challenges we face and actually make people just feel like they're going to a space that is being watched and looked at, actually gives you a sense of security and actually makes you feel like you will behave in an appropriate way, that you are being watched and, and, and that that space is being appropriately watched and considered.
11:47
Baroness Lawrence of Clarendon
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Baroness Lawrence of Clarendon
I think one of the things that you also mentioned about around the community, one thing that is not being said is about schools because schools are in. I've got a school at the top of my road and litter and stuff comes from young children. But what the school. They've had different visors of how the school. But one of the things this latest head, I think, within the schools been doing is that they have certain children that goes out litter picking up and down my road. You see them the first thing in the morning. They have their bags and their little things that you use to pick up litter and, and they, and they, they do that.
So I think that's something that probably within the council is how do you make sure that young people understand about the litter that they discard as they walk up to school or walk on the way home? And one more thing, I think there's so many things you talk about is not having the powers to do certain things. I think when it comes to what we can do, what would you suggest is the main thing that would help you? So if you put that in writing for us, what is it that you want us that we can within recommendation that you can just say, this is what I recommend would help us around space and cleaning up the space around us and the environment.
So I think that's something that probably within the council is how do you make sure that young people understand about the litter that they discard as they walk up to school or walk on the way home? And one more thing, I think there's so many things you talk about is not having the powers to do certain things. I think when it comes to what we can do, what would you suggest is the main thing that would help you? So if you put that in writing for us, what is it that you want us that we can within recommendation that you can just say, this is what I recommend would help us around space and cleaning up the space around us and the environment.
11:48
11:48
Baroness Janke
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Baroness Janke
Yes. So just thinking about positive incentives, where I live in Bristol, there have been lots of schemes, partly run by schools, but community associations as well, where they've used sort of unsightly bits of land to actually grow food and make it available. And there's been quite strong education programmes in schools, not just about picking up litter and how things look, but how this fits in with the ecology and and their sort of green agenda sustainability. So I just wondered whether you'd had any success on that. That was the first issue I wanted to raise, because I've also known I used to be a teacher myself, and I've known that schools to adopt certain areas where they've been able to look at the flora and fauna as well as grow their own plants and, and take pride in somewhere in their own area.
So I feel that that is something we need to pursue more as a positive incentive, not just.
So I feel that that is something we need to pursue more as a positive incentive, not just.
11:49
11:49
11:49
11:50
Lord Gascoigne
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Lord Gascoigne
You know, good learnt behaviour and looking after the public space and so forth. I mean, a lot of the bids, including. including Central District Lines and others, you know, we have we actually do quite a lot with. employees on this front. So we have these the the Russell Square. commissioners are incredibly effective of getting money out of us for bulb planting. Every time I turn around, there's more bulbs being planted. And we do that with, with, with, with employees of the local businesses. We also do quite a lot with schools. So we will have them in.
We have them in for events and various other things. I mean, central London school distribution and indeed population is going through change at the moment. But I think the bids can be very. effective at as acting as conveners in a, you know, in a sort of soft sense for those different parties. We have some we have something called Phoenix.
We have them in for events and various other things. I mean, central London school distribution and indeed population is going through change at the moment. But I think the bids can be very. effective at as acting as conveners in a, you know, in a sort of soft sense for those different parties. We have some we have something called Phoenix.
11:50
11:50
Lord Gascoigne
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Lord Gascoigne
Which is a my sister works there for full disclosure. And, you know, they are a community based. organisation where right in the heart of central London, where they can do lots of social good on this front. And, and I think bids are generally very supportive of those things. And in a way, you know, coming back to something I said earlier, I think we'd much rather be spending money on that than on the basics.
But the basics are under such. stress that we have to.
But the basics are under such. stress that we have to.
11:51
11:51
11:51
Lord Gascoigne
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Lord Gascoigne
Certainly in some areas. And we've talked about moving traffic and parking offences. But I am struck how just cleaning. streets is done in the same way, largely as it was done 100 years ago, 50 years ago. I mean, you get some of these YouTube videos if you can't sleep at night and there's pictures of in the Netherlands of these guys coming and they are men, but they, they come and they, they hoover up leaves using, you know, they've got all this technology and these forms of equipment to improve their productivity. And I do wonder if there's been a bit of a failure of imagination in terms of improving the.
productivity of the means by which we look after places. It all seems a bit sort of, you know. 1920s in many ways. And I know that's also a money issue. I don't know, it's an investment issue, but it would be good if we could, you know, adopt .
productivity of the means by which we look after places. It all seems a bit sort of, you know. 1920s in many ways. And I know that's also a money issue. I don't know, it's an investment issue, but it would be good if we could, you know, adopt .
11:52
Baroness Janke
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Baroness Janke
Some best practice in terms of how we do stuff as well as deciding what we do and, and remove some of the boundaries. I mean, one of the ridiculous boundaries that we have is that parks are separate from highways. So if a tree is growing on a highway, it can't be treated by the same people who treat them in the parks. And so those sorts of. administrative type boundaries that often get in the way of a more holistic approach. But I mean, you're right about the technology. If you're in a, say, a French square, when they have a.
market within sort of half an hour after the markets closed down, the whole thing is completely cleaned, scrubbed. All amounts of litter and waste or anything are completely removed. And yet we don't .
market within sort of half an hour after the markets closed down, the whole thing is completely cleaned, scrubbed. All amounts of litter and waste or anything are completely removed. And yet we don't .
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11:53
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
But John, very quickly, if I may. Yeah. Thank you chair. Yeah. So all of the contracts that that that we have have all been procured. And as part of that procurement process, there's a social value aspect to, to those contracts. And it usually scores about 10% of the marks. We have a social values and community team and we have a dedicated manager. So we get across all of the contracts or all of the councils that we're working with. And we do actually go into the schools and do. presentations on the effects of environmental crime and littering and so on.
We do organise litter picks with the school children. We also do it with with litter groups as well around the area. We sponsor events with the schools. We also do litter, litter. competitions and stuff where they'll draw posters and stuff and we'll give prizes over for that. So it's a and it's been really effective. I guess our barrier there though is actually getting into the schools. So a lot of the time we are relying on the councils to actually get us through the door of the school. And that's the difficulty. But I do know, and it's an actual figure that in.
2025 that we we delivered this to over. 10,000 school children. So imagine in.
We do organise litter picks with the school children. We also do it with with litter groups as well around the area. We sponsor events with the schools. We also do litter, litter. competitions and stuff where they'll draw posters and stuff and we'll give prizes over for that. So it's a and it's been really effective. I guess our barrier there though is actually getting into the schools. So a lot of the time we are relying on the councils to actually get us through the door of the school. And that's the difficulty. But I do know, and it's an actual figure that in.
2025 that we we delivered this to over. 10,000 school children. So imagine in.
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11:54
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Playing, making things really helps that educational piece. So when they go back to the school, they're all excited. Plus, also keen that the outsider school is well maintained. So we support with. planters and bulbs and things to give them the ability to grow and produce their own things, but also have that sense of pride and care of what they put together. I think that's really important, that early engagement with young children, our future, to really bring them along. So I also alongside that, in Grosvenor Square, we partnered with the London Wildlife Trust and the new Grosvenor Square, where they have an educational centre.
So it's actually we're bringing children in for specific lessons to really. understand about climate resilient.
So it's actually we're bringing children in for specific lessons to really. understand about climate resilient.
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Lord Gascoigne
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Lord Gascoigne
Garden and part of the areas of which they live or visit. Totally. I think it's brilliant. I always speak about a my local area, there's this little bit of green patch where kids and local shops, they're all planting bulbs. And, you know, I think it's a great way of bringing everyone together as well as improving an area. Anyway, I'm going to continue the.
11:56
Baroness Griffin of Princethorpe
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Baroness Griffin of Princethorpe
Liverpudlian loving. I'm going to bring in Baroness Griffin. Your question. Thank you chair. Full disclosure my daughter lives in Wavertree High Street in Liverpool. Please can you give us in writing examples of good practice? Because, Carl, you were talking about Lincolnshire. How do we actually develop that in terms of legislation? Simon, you were just talking about the interface with, for instance, forest schools.
So also not only kind of the statutory stuff, but if you could give us examples of.
So also not only kind of the statutory stuff, but if you could give us examples of.
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11:56
Baroness Griffin of Princethorpe
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Baroness Griffin of Princethorpe
The issue between statutory and non-statutory? And as a city councillor, city councillor, I. recognise that wholly in terms of where income has to go and I suppose as well, Carl, in terms of Liverpool one, how do we have the effect of Liverpool? One, doing well in terms of Picton, in terms of Everton, how do we actually pull that. positive social value and economic and cultural value across? But my actual question , which which is the same, is what's the most effective way of funding maintenance and.
enforcement in public spaces? Who should be. responsible for .
enforcement in public spaces? Who should be. responsible for .
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Paying how and why? Simon, I think, I think we need to look to be creative. I do wonder whether seal is is the seal fund is something that could be. explored more for for public spaces. I think as we as. stewards obviously have. invested in Grosvenor Square and continue to invest in public realm. So Eccleston Street is a street that's currently undergoing a refurbishment as we speak, but working with Westminster, working with the. council to ensure that briefs. Right. I think as we are long term stewards, there is a. You need people with the long term vision in order for investment.
I think one of the challenges in streets or spaces where you have short term owners, you're. unlikely to be able to get that same investment. But I think we just need to look more broadly. And I think seal funding as an example of. something that could be used to help better. maintain the public .
I think one of the challenges in streets or spaces where you have short term owners, you're. unlikely to be able to get that same investment. But I think we just need to look more broadly. And I think seal funding as an example of. something that could be used to help better. maintain the public .
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Thank you. Carl. Yeah, I think it was a I think that's a really, really good question, Baroness Griffin. And I've got a few I've got a few ideas that I've, I've talked to actually Liverpool bid about. I quite like the idea of local bids. So like a bid for Picton Road, a bid for County Road, a bid for all of these other areas that have got high streets. I think that would work very well. And a really good example on Merseyside, not in Liverpool, but Prescott town centre had a huge. rejuvenation project under Knowsley Council, which was.
It's fantastic to see, isn't it? Yeah, and a beautiful new theatre as well. But part of that I think, was the project was part funded by, I think heritage, British Heritage and all the shopfronts were changed to these uniform shopfronts. And I just think even though that feels like it's not something you should go. That's what we're looking for. Like the look of it matters and the look of it means something. And perspective, I think, really does matter. So the perspective of seeing clean streets is one thing, but the perspective of going to a place and going, wow, this feels like a place that really should be looked after.
I think that's really important. And the question that you asked was, who should be. responsible for paying for this enforcement? I think that's a really important question because I think a lot of the time it does fall onto councils. And a lot of the time, you know, the councils do need to take a. responsibility to do that. I think 111 point I'd like to make is that it's it's not. always the councils, but always councils always get the blame. So I'll give you an example. There was there was a recent United. Utilities piece of work in the mystery, which is in.
Wavertree for those not initiated in Liverpool law, which is a park, by the way. And they dug up the park. There was a whole backlash from from residents there which happened to be in my ward, and there wasn't a backlash against United Utilities, there was a backlash against myself and against the council. And I think that's an important point to make, because councils usually are at the sharp end of this, and I think councils wouldn't mind that as much if they had the backing from. government to fund this enforcement or to fund to fund holding these big corporations and.
businesses to account. So in answer to your question, the people that should be responsible in many areas should be.
It's fantastic to see, isn't it? Yeah, and a beautiful new theatre as well. But part of that I think, was the project was part funded by, I think heritage, British Heritage and all the shopfronts were changed to these uniform shopfronts. And I just think even though that feels like it's not something you should go. That's what we're looking for. Like the look of it matters and the look of it means something. And perspective, I think, really does matter. So the perspective of seeing clean streets is one thing, but the perspective of going to a place and going, wow, this feels like a place that really should be looked after.
I think that's really important. And the question that you asked was, who should be. responsible for paying for this enforcement? I think that's a really important question because I think a lot of the time it does fall onto councils. And a lot of the time, you know, the councils do need to take a. responsibility to do that. I think 111 point I'd like to make is that it's it's not. always the councils, but always councils always get the blame. So I'll give you an example. There was there was a recent United. Utilities piece of work in the mystery, which is in.
Wavertree for those not initiated in Liverpool law, which is a park, by the way. And they dug up the park. There was a whole backlash from from residents there which happened to be in my ward, and there wasn't a backlash against United Utilities, there was a backlash against myself and against the council. And I think that's an important point to make, because councils usually are at the sharp end of this, and I think councils wouldn't mind that as much if they had the backing from. government to fund this enforcement or to fund to fund holding these big corporations and.
businesses to account. So in answer to your question, the people that should be responsible in many areas should be.
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12:01
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
But actually people who contribute to any waste, people who contribute to any disruption. So the utilities companies also should be held to account and should be responsible as well. Now, there's probably a number of ways that we can think to do that. I can think of a few in terms of the utilities companies and and be quite imaginative with that. But even the likes of businesses that produce commercial waste and don't get rid of it in the right way, I think that they need to be held to account and to take real responsibility. And we can we can enforce in city centres because we've got the likes of of wise and we've got the bids.
Very important point that you make, Baroness, is, you know, in those areas that aren't necessarily city centres, like it's not as easy to enforce because there's not as much footfall and. concentration of. organisations such as wise. So we need to essentially you're going to get bored of hearing me say this, but essentially we need to fund councils to be able to carry out that.
Very important point that you make, Baroness, is, you know, in those areas that aren't necessarily city centres, like it's not as easy to enforce because there's not as much footfall and. concentration of. organisations such as wise. So we need to essentially you're going to get bored of hearing me say this, but essentially we need to fund councils to be able to carry out that.
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Lord Gascoigne
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Lord Gascoigne
Okay, so unfortunately, I'm going to give you sort of two and a half answers to this, but very quickly, I mean, I think first and foremost, local property taxes should be used for looking after the public realm. And I just I don't know how we've ended up in a world in which adult social care and special educational needs are funded by property tax. I just think that's a very odd way of doing things. And that's not to say those are not really.
important services that should be funded, but it's very, very.
important services that should be funded, but it's very, very.
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12:03
Lord Gascoigne
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Lord Gascoigne
If you will, from, you know, using a property tax, I think, to fund them compared to the things that people see and experience on a day to day basis. And we are talking, as I mentioned before, in the case of England, about minuscule amounts, less than. 1 or 2% in many cases out of the total business rates that businesses are paying, certainly in central London. So I think I do think business rates should be should be used for that. And I do think that stronger incentives for business rate, at least growth retention, which is genuinely retained and not equalised away by the centre, would give local authorities a business case to invest more in these areas.
I mean, we haven't really talked about the numbers on this, but, you know, the work by. Cabe since, you know, since. departed looking, it's called paved with gold looks at the. quantifiable impact of better public realm on the economy. And these numbers are big enough, I think, to capture value locally, which could then be used to help provide for things. So I think that's one thing. The other thing I think is charges is charges. I think, you know, if local authorities had the power to charge British Telecom, I've said it now, you know. £10,000 for every ghastly phone box that's left in.
I mean, we haven't really talked about the numbers on this, but, you know, the work by. Cabe since, you know, since. departed looking, it's called paved with gold looks at the. quantifiable impact of better public realm on the economy. And these numbers are big enough, I think, to capture value locally, which could then be used to help provide for things. So I think that's one thing. The other thing I think is charges is charges. I think, you know, if local authorities had the power to charge British Telecom, I've said it now, you know. £10,000 for every ghastly phone box that's left in.
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Lord Gascoigne
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Lord Gascoigne
That would soon add up to some money, and they might then get rid of them, in which case the problem and the costs. associated with the problem would go away. So I do think. charges do work, and they have the great. advantage of dealing with the cost, you know, reflecting the costs of the problem on whoever's digging up the road or whatever, but also then creating resources to deal with those things. And to a certain extent, fines. I accept that fines have got a. legitimate role to play here overnight. Levy. Yes, maybe. I mean, I know there's going to be a tug of war, certainly in London between the boroughs and the mayor, as to how that money is allocated.
But I think it would be very odd if at least a proportion of the overnight levy wasn't spent in the areas where visitors and tourists go and to look after them, but to be to, you know, to, to address the the.
But I think it would be very odd if at least a proportion of the overnight levy wasn't spent in the areas where visitors and tourists go and to look after them, but to be to, you know, to, to address the the.
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12:05
Lord Gascoigne
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Lord Gascoigne
I do think there is a sort of how do we make these things more efficient? So yes, we need to think about how to raise money. But the. interface issue, you know, the boundary issue is, is a real challenge in areas from an efficiency point of view. So, you know, you might in central London have. Veolia providing waste services. And they're very good. By the way, I tend to, you know, Veolia up and down on this side, dealing with waste services in this part of central London and Veolia up and down the streets on this side of the of of a boundary in central London.
Well, can we really not think about central London's waste needs on a more sort of collective basis, whilst maintaining the sort of the. sovereignty of the local authorities involved? So I think, you know. efficiency would be another way of, of tackling the problem of cost and creating .
Well, can we really not think about central London's waste needs on a more sort of collective basis, whilst maintaining the sort of the. sovereignty of the local authorities involved? So I think, you know. efficiency would be another way of, of tackling the problem of cost and creating .
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12:06
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
How the service is going to be paid for or how we are paid for delivering the service. And we don't really have a choice in what that is. And what we found with the 31 councils that we're working with, we have a handful that charge us by the hour, and they use an internal budget, and then the remaining.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
The service is paid by the offenders. And and it's done. It's done based on on that basis. Now, with regards to ourselves, it doesn't really matter whether we're paid by the hour or whether we're paid by. retaining an element of the revenue from from the offenders who were actually. committing the crimes. It doesn't matter how we deliver that service whatsoever. But what I can say is, is with the current system and the way it currently is, is that every council that we're working with at the.
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12:07
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
It is the offenders that defund the entire service. There's no budget that comes from the council whatsoever. On the. enforcement side of how we're delivering the service that that seems to that seems to work at the moment. But the March guidance that come out stated that it's never about raising revenue enforcement. And I can't agree any more with that. And that's how it how it should be. It's all about quality, never about the numbers. Every interaction is recorded with offenders. So it's not a case of, you know, going for kind of easy pickings and things like that to try and raise revenue or generate revenue.
And also the price of fixed penalty. notices is determined by, by government and the council. So, so not the private company. So with some.
And also the price of fixed penalty. notices is determined by, by government and the council. So, so not the private company. So with some.
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12:08
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
One particular council for dropping a cigarette butt on the floor is, is £500. And if discounted to. £75 if they pay early. We work with other councils where it's £500 and there's actually no discount at all. And then there's another council where it's £100 and it discounted to £80. So it's kind of way narrow. But again, it doesn't change with the way we deliver the service. It's exactly the same. The officer on the ground has no idea how, how the company is being paid to to deliver that service. What I would say is, is with regards to, you know, packaging.
And then I think the producers who are producing the packaging and such have some sort of charge put on them for that. And then also landowners, private.
And then I think the producers who are producing the packaging and such have some sort of charge put on them for that. And then also landowners, private.
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12:08
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Because because in a lot of the councils we're working with, there's a lot of private land, a lot of retail parks, the likes of McDonald's and so on do send out their own litter pickers, and they do seem to be taking that seriously. But there are a lot of companies on, on those retail parks that that don't bother at all .
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12:09
Lord Bassam of Brighton
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Lord Bassam of Brighton
I'm just going to ask you some recommendations. What do you want to. Yeah. I mean, we've heard a lot this morning, some good. ideas and some really thoughtful observations and presentations. But you know, from each of you what, what do you think are the most impactful. recommendations we as a committee can make to change? You know, the what, what many see as being the sort of.
deterioration in the public realm. So, I mean, I think .
deterioration in the public realm. So, I mean, I think .
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
I'm without doubt it can happen. And there are some councils that do. We work with five councils where we actually do environmental enforcement and also parking enforcement as well. And the same officers and actually the environmental enforcement officers prefer to do parking because the car doesn't talk back. Whereas with the person, you have to get their name and address. So, so they do find the job a little bit better to, to, to do and deliver, but also just making it one service standard, whether it be in-house or.
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12:11
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
And we're only at the moment working with 31 councils, but every council does everything differently. And when we go and see them, they've been enforcing environmental crime completely different as well. But wouldn't it be nice to if you spoke, spoke to an offender was to check their ID, you know, introduce yourself, check their ID, have a body worn camera on, issued a penalty on the spot. Followed the same procedure with regards to reminder letters to go out. Everyone give the exactly the same payment systems and also exactly the same payments parking that you know it's the same payment, higher level, lower level, right across the whole of the country, rather than having Luton Council for.
£500 penalty and Knowsley Council. £450 penalty, that that that would be good. And also with parking, you've got like the British Parking Association and other associations there as well. I think that that would be would be a great way forward for environmental enforcement. The second one is, is joining up the data, having a central database, especially for waste crime when it comes to litter and dog foul. And, you know, that's that's low level proactive enforcement.
But the reactive.
£500 penalty and Knowsley Council. £450 penalty, that that that would be good. And also with parking, you've got like the British Parking Association and other associations there as well. I think that that would be would be a great way forward for environmental enforcement. The second one is, is joining up the data, having a central database, especially for waste crime when it comes to litter and dog foul. And, you know, that's that's low level proactive enforcement.
But the reactive.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
If there was a database that was central to every council could tap into, then you'll be able to track, track these criminals down and track them down as they're going across borders. Now, if we work with at the moment we're working with four councils in Nottinghamshire. Well, we we as a company, when we're investigating, we can see that on our systems, but we can't go and share information with Broxtowe that we did in Rushcliffe and things like that. We have to ask them to go and get that information themselves. But wouldn't it be nice to just have that one central database?
And again, it brings up that that. technology question. And then thirdly goes back to the powers . You wouldn't believe how incredibly difficult it is to enforce pspos because people can just walk away from you. And with social media, it's common knowledge. I mean, we're forever on a daily basis having people following us around with cameras, you know, seeing what we're doing, hoping that we trip up, you know, so they can get a few more views on, on online and so on. But those people as well are informing the public, oh, that's for a pspo offence.
Just walk away. And wouldn't it be nice to just have that one little bit in the legislation that just aligns it with littering and every other offence that we enforce? Because most of the offences that we're. enforcing is under the Environmental Protection Act of 1990. So turning this one particular offence where where it falls down, and I think everyone in this room may have the power to to do that. And .
And again, it brings up that that. technology question. And then thirdly goes back to the powers . You wouldn't believe how incredibly difficult it is to enforce pspos because people can just walk away from you. And with social media, it's common knowledge. I mean, we're forever on a daily basis having people following us around with cameras, you know, seeing what we're doing, hoping that we trip up, you know, so they can get a few more views on, on online and so on. But those people as well are informing the public, oh, that's for a pspo offence.
Just walk away. And wouldn't it be nice to just have that one little bit in the legislation that just aligns it with littering and every other offence that we enforce? Because most of the offences that we're. enforcing is under the Environmental Protection Act of 1990. So turning this one particular offence where where it falls down, and I think everyone in this room may have the power to to do that. And .
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Lord Gascoigne
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Lord Gascoigne
We've talked about dig once, which would probably require that, you know, highway authorities can basically organise that and say when it needs to happen. We've talked a little bit about fines and tariffs and charges again, which doesn't burden the public purse. So, you know, higher, more widespread lane rental.
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12:14
Lord Gascoigne
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Lord Gascoigne
You know, dealing with the problems around phone boxes and other bits of street clutter. If they were, they attracted more charges on an annual basis that might help help them out. And I do think some legislative change around commercial waste arrangements. I think I think we need to look at that market and and allow the law to give local authorities the power to rationalise the numbers in there. A bit like bus franchising, which is all the rage. Now, you know, if you had a franchise arrangement for that, I think that would. produce relatively cost free and very positive outcomes.
I do think that, you know, I've talked about this retention of some of the benefits of growth, genuine retention, which isn't swept away every three years by by. Mhclg and the Treasury. And there are positive signs we're moving in that direction. And that gives local authorities a basis to invest in their areas on a sustainable. basis because of the impact it has on their their tax base. And then finally, I do think I take the point about powers at the lowest level that Charles mentioned, but I do think in some. areas we need to have a bit of a think about how these things are administered and organised.
You know, having. We haven't talked about e-bikes.
I do think that, you know, I've talked about this retention of some of the benefits of growth, genuine retention, which isn't swept away every three years by by. Mhclg and the Treasury. And there are positive signs we're moving in that direction. And that gives local authorities a basis to invest in their areas on a sustainable. basis because of the impact it has on their their tax base. And then finally, I do think I take the point about powers at the lowest level that Charles mentioned, but I do think in some. areas we need to have a bit of a think about how these things are administered and organised.
You know, having. We haven't talked about e-bikes.
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Lord Gascoigne
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Lord Gascoigne
You know, and all that stuff, which is kind of a sort of hard wiring if ever there was of borough sovereignty, you know, if you come up to Hounslow, you can't go in on a line bike or whatever it is. I do think a more rational policy would be to have either city wide, in the case of London or central London wide, greater congruence in how these things are.
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Lord Gascoigne
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Lord Gascoigne
And that would I think that would help people to understand and navigate the area also to make things more cost effective to implement. And it would produce better outcomes to avoid this risk of. displacement that we've talked about, where a particular problem is effectively moved from one neighbourhood to another. And then in overall terms, you have to question if we're we're sort of better off. So I think it's a combination of things. And I think, you know, some if it can be badged as devolution, which is the word of the day, then that might help with the political appetite within the other place to, to achieve that.
But, you know, we know this works in other places and other cities. We know it works well in many American and mainland European cities. And we talked about the technology before and investing in innovative ways of dealing with these things. So greater sense of urgency, bit more resource, clearer.
But, you know, we know this works in other places and other cities. We know it works well in many American and mainland European cities. And we talked about the technology before and investing in innovative ways of dealing with these things. So greater sense of urgency, bit more resource, clearer.
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Lord Gascoigne
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Lord Gascoigne
Single point of contact with the local authority. Yeah, I think, I mean, local authorities are already, I think, pretty good at, you know, if something goes wrong with local services, people kind of know who to talk to. Good luck if something goes wrong with the NHS. I mean, who do you talk to? The Secretary of state. So I think, you know, the mayor is in London's case, the mayor. We haven't talked about the GLA and the mayor. But, you know, the mayor is obviously responsible for lots of things. And people understand that in terms of the clarity policing less.
So it's more complicated. But yes, I think I think.
So it's more complicated. But yes, I think I think.
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
A city wide and local government level. I'm glad John and Alexander went first because it gives me an opportunity to both respond, but then say that why I'm a localist. So I think when when devolution works and when you see it in practice, you see that it doesn't create the issues that Alexander mentioned there. Actually, it does quite the opposite. But he's completely right in saying that some of this some of these cross-border issues is absolute.
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
And it shouldn't happen. But through devolution, I think gets around that issue. And I'll make a point about that. So, John, the issue I wanted to push back on John with was on the fines. So so having like a uniform fine across the whole of the UK now, I think there's certain areas where higher fines would work better than other areas. And that's, you know, an area of devolution that I completely support. However, where I agree with John and Alexander is on the process issue. So if we have a like a single point of. processing or a single policy to follow, that would make it much easier.
And I know there'll be areas across Liverpool, across Greater Manchester, across London, where actually, if you can, you can do that. It'll make it much more streamlined. And there's, I mean, there's a, there's a, a person issue that I've got or two. One is when you see, you know, the bin lorry on one side of a road in. Merseyside and then the bin lorry on the other side of the road. And for the life of you, you can't figure out why the bin men are arguing with each other, but it's because they were in different colors or they're collecting different colour bins now.
That's one of the things I would absolutely support. cross-border working on another another one , just to kind of come back to Baroness Griffin's point is, you know, on, on, on the stewardship. And it absolutely blows my mind when I get pieces of casework in one alleyway in Liverpool where the council go, well, I'm not too sure whether that's our responsibility. And then you go to a social housing provider and they say, oh, well, actually, no, we believe that's the council. I, I. fundamentally think that councils in those. instances could and would step in. But it's again, I want to sound like a broken record, but I don't care because it's important.
It comes back to funding. And it's a vicious circle of here's a problem. Our public realm isn't what it should be. But if you funded councils properly to enable them to make the public realm where it should be, it would have that knock on effect to make investment more likely. It would make these these. businessmen much more happy, and I'm sure it would make their clients happier as well. So if I if I can press anything today and I can leave you with anything today, it's that councils are happy to to use these powers. Councils are happy to work with these.
And I know there'll be areas across Liverpool, across Greater Manchester, across London, where actually, if you can, you can do that. It'll make it much more streamlined. And there's, I mean, there's a, there's a, a person issue that I've got or two. One is when you see, you know, the bin lorry on one side of a road in. Merseyside and then the bin lorry on the other side of the road. And for the life of you, you can't figure out why the bin men are arguing with each other, but it's because they were in different colors or they're collecting different colour bins now.
That's one of the things I would absolutely support. cross-border working on another another one , just to kind of come back to Baroness Griffin's point is, you know, on, on, on the stewardship. And it absolutely blows my mind when I get pieces of casework in one alleyway in Liverpool where the council go, well, I'm not too sure whether that's our responsibility. And then you go to a social housing provider and they say, oh, well, actually, no, we believe that's the council. I, I. fundamentally think that councils in those. instances could and would step in. But it's again, I want to sound like a broken record, but I don't care because it's important.
It comes back to funding. And it's a vicious circle of here's a problem. Our public realm isn't what it should be. But if you funded councils properly to enable them to make the public realm where it should be, it would have that knock on effect to make investment more likely. It would make these these. businessmen much more happy, and I'm sure it would make their clients happier as well. So if I if I can press anything today and I can leave you with anything today, it's that councils are happy to to use these powers. Councils are happy to work with these.
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Baroness Andrews
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Baroness Andrews
Brilliant. Thank you. I think, Baroness Andrew, you want to come in very quickly, very quickly. It's been an outstanding session with such. clarity actually, and consensus across the witnesses. The only question I would ask, because we have a huge amount of information now on good practice and much, much clearer about the balance of. responsibilities between national and local government and what works and what not. What we're not entirely clear about is whether things have got worse and why. And I would just like to ask the witnesses whether this is a topic on which we could.
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Lord Gascoigne
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Lord Gascoigne
As was where he talks. The author whose name I can't recall, but he talks in terms to. describe bits of central London very much in the way that we have would recognise today. However, I do think it has got better, even though that might be hard to prove. But I also think our. expectations have gone up, and rightly so, rightly so. I mentioned at the very beginning about, you know, if you look at how we all live in, many of us are lucky enough to live in terms of our internal. world or our cars, how they've changed compared to the cars our parents had.
You know, there's been. transformation in terms of the quality, the experience, the environment. So public realm a lot less so. So even if it has got better a bit, I just don't think it it meets people's. expectations compared to, you know, many of the .
You know, there's been. transformation in terms of the quality, the experience, the environment. So public realm a lot less so. So even if it has got better a bit, I just don't think it it meets people's. expectations compared to, you know, many of the .
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Lord Gascoigne
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Lord Gascoigne
Know how to get an answer and from whom. Yeah. Thank you. You'll be pleased to know that's the end of our session. I think it has been a fantastic and really thought provoking discussion. I think if you wake up at 4 a.m. in the morning and instead of perhaps watching YouTube videos on bin collection, please write to us. If you think I forgot to mention something, please do write to us about this or any other issues which didn't come up. I think there's there is, as Baroness Andrews just touched upon, a sort of societal behavior question, perhaps, I think to repeat again, it would be good, and perhaps Councillor Cashmere could, if you if I may use your your good offices to the LGA, just to say if there's if there's good examples across the country, particularly smaller local authorities as well, that you think would be good to hear, hear from, please do get in touch.
And I think also about the clarity around. responsibilities and, and structures, but also efficiencies that could be made to lower the lower the cost. And I think Simon and Alexandra in particular, but all of you, the economic uplift and benefit, obviously, you've talked about the the importance of business being involved in this. Anything that you've got that you can feed in massively, massively appreciate beyond what you've done with us over the last hour and a half or so with us.
It has been great. Really appreciate you coming in and given the time,
And I think also about the clarity around. responsibilities and, and structures, but also efficiencies that could be made to lower the lower the cost. And I think Simon and Alexandra in particular, but all of you, the economic uplift and benefit, obviously, you've talked about the the importance of business being involved in this. Anything that you've got that you can feed in massively, massively appreciate beyond what you've done with us over the last hour and a half or so with us.
It has been great. Really appreciate you coming in and given the time,
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