Digital, Culture, Media and Sport Committee
Tuesday 27th October 2026
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10:00
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Authorities have seen not only their failure to fund their statutory services properly, but also the voluntary services, those non-statutory functions such as tourism and culture. So this prevents presents an opportunity for new , new cash to local authorities and to regional mayors. The second is, I suppose, precedent in that many countries overseas, and indeed many cities have this model to get more money back into their own visitor economy. Some are more successful at this than others. And so, for example, when Amsterdam, it was proposed that Amsterdam would have a city tax scheme, all of the money was hypothecated for visitor economy.
And yet visit Amsterdam. The tourist board has never seen a penny. So there's a difference between intention and delivery. And I suppose the third is that. The visitor economy I mean all all of us really those of us who you're going to hear from today, we're nothing if not realists. And so we realise that, particularly in the light of tomorrow's budget, the overnight visitor levy is likely to be enacted. And with the push to devolution across England in particular. And so I think from our perspective, Alva's perspective in particular, we're keen to see any new proposal made as functional and efficient and effective, not only for the broader economy, but for the visitor economy as well.
And yet visit Amsterdam. The tourist board has never seen a penny. So there's a difference between intention and delivery. And I suppose the third is that. The visitor economy I mean all all of us really those of us who you're going to hear from today, we're nothing if not realists. And so we realise that, particularly in the light of tomorrow's budget, the overnight visitor levy is likely to be enacted. And with the push to devolution across England in particular. And so I think from our perspective, Alva's perspective in particular, we're keen to see any new proposal made as functional and efficient and effective, not only for the broader economy, but for the visitor economy as well.
10:03
10:03
10:04
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Yes, I think thank you, chair, for the for the question. I recognise a lot of the issues which other members of the panel have have suggested, and that's clearly part of the wider context for this for this reform. I think, you know, if you look at the government's argument for this, I think the core of the argument which the government is making is that it's a step on the government's programme for devolution to improve both local and national economic growth. So if you look internationally, we are an exceptionally centralised, rich country for our size, with by far the most centralised country in the G7.
Only about 5% of our taxes are collected at a local level, compared to about 14% in France, about 24% in Japan, both places that have a visitor levy. And the implication of that is it then means that local government has few incentives to grow their local economy, that if they increase their size, their tax base, if they create more jobs, if they increase wages, ultimately that all flows up to Whitehall. And it doesn't increase resource for local government in particular. That adds up to quite a big national problem as well as individual local problem. So our expectation and our hope is that the visitor levy is an important first step in moving towards a more typical local finance system like we see in other countries.
But I think for the purposes of this debate in this committee, an important implication is that we do need the visitor levy to be as pro growth as possible and to provide strong incentives for mayors to support the visitor economy and to increase the number of visitors in their city.
Only about 5% of our taxes are collected at a local level, compared to about 14% in France, about 24% in Japan, both places that have a visitor levy. And the implication of that is it then means that local government has few incentives to grow their local economy, that if they increase their size, their tax base, if they create more jobs, if they increase wages, ultimately that all flows up to Whitehall. And it doesn't increase resource for local government in particular. That adds up to quite a big national problem as well as individual local problem. So our expectation and our hope is that the visitor levy is an important first step in moving towards a more typical local finance system like we see in other countries.
But I think for the purposes of this debate in this committee, an important implication is that we do need the visitor levy to be as pro growth as possible and to provide strong incentives for mayors to support the visitor economy and to increase the number of visitors in their city.
10:07
Caroline Dinenage
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Caroline Dinenage
That's really helpful, actually. So, Bernard, I go back to you because when you started, you set out your objectives as to why you thought the visitor levy was attempting to solve certain problems, and there wasn't a kind of positive economic case among them. It was all a degree of political inevitability about giving strategic authorities this power. So apart from political support, do you see that there actually being a positive economic case in the same way that Anthony set out that this could that this could impact that there could be a good reason for introducing this levy?
10:08
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Yes, potentially. Tourism is the UK's fifth biggest industry, third largest employer. It creates more jobs at all skill levels, quicker than any other sector in the country, and is the third largest employer in every UK constituency. If you were planning to organise a growth strategy for the fifth biggest industry, you wouldn't start where we are now. We don't have a government tourism strategy. Despite one being written for the last two and a half years, it hasn't been published. There have been three examples in the last ten months of policies emanating from number ten and the Treasury affecting tourism, but they're all completely unlinked from each other, and they've been created in isolation from a tourism strategy.
The first, the Treasury proposal to charge overseas visitors to enter our free national museums and collections that's now been vetoed wisely. The second is the overnight visitor levy and the. The third was the decision to cut VAT for visitor attractions over the course of the summer. Now, if you had a normal tourism strategy, they would all be elements of it, but we don't. So they were all determined in isolation from each other. That's no way to grow Britain's fifth biggest industry. But coming back to your particular point, yes. If an overnight visitor levy is introduced and it's introduced with care and consultation and caution, the money emanating from an overnight visitor levy, if hypothecated and reinvested back into the visitor economy, could be transformational.
The first, the Treasury proposal to charge overseas visitors to enter our free national museums and collections that's now been vetoed wisely. The second is the overnight visitor levy and the. The third was the decision to cut VAT for visitor attractions over the course of the summer. Now, if you had a normal tourism strategy, they would all be elements of it, but we don't. So they were all determined in isolation from each other. That's no way to grow Britain's fifth biggest industry. But coming back to your particular point, yes. If an overnight visitor levy is introduced and it's introduced with care and consultation and caution, the money emanating from an overnight visitor levy, if hypothecated and reinvested back into the visitor economy, could be transformational.
10:12
10:12
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
I'm going to again echo a couple of things that Bernard has said. We don't have a visitor economy growth strategy. We have a situation where domestic, rural and coastal tourism is in significant decline. Almost 30% reduction in overnight stays since 2022. So introducing a levy into those areas will have a disproportionately different impact than if you introduce it into cities and metro areas where the visitor economies are growing. So this is why we are absolutely adamant there has to be a robust economic impact assessments made because you ask the same questions of different areas, you'll get different answers.
So for us, the number one ask is that we don't skirt this and go through too quickly, as we did in Scotland and in Wales. We have a proper robust economic impact assessment and political analysis of this before implementation. Thank you.
So for us, the number one ask is that we don't skirt this and go through too quickly, as we did in Scotland and in Wales. We have a proper robust economic impact assessment and political analysis of this before implementation. Thank you.
10:14
Cameron Thomas
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Cameron Thomas
Thank you chair. May I refer honourable members to my declaration of Members interests? Also point out I'm a former tourism minister. I used to work in the sectors and I go back quite a long way with pretty much all the panellists that we've got today. In terms of interactions. I should also declare that Alastair organised a trip for me down to the South West in my Shadow Secretary of State role with Pasc earlier on in the year. I'm also an active member of multiple Appgs. I hope that means I know what I'm talking about here.
So let me start off with my view and then I'll come to you. I think this is a ridiculous idea. I have yet to see any evidence whatsoever that the idea is that you can support an industry by taxing it more. And so, so, so, you know, that's my, my point of view. But if it is going to come ahead and Bernard, I think you're right that it's going to be in the budget tomorrow. We all want to make sure it's done in the most helpful or least destructive way to that extent. Therefore, there's been a debate and a consultation and lots of views and opinions coming in about how the levy should come in, whether it should be a X pounds per person per night or a percentage levy.
Could you just explain, first of all, Bernard, what what you would like to see, what you think the preferred option would be? And Alastair, I'll come to you in a moment.
So let me start off with my view and then I'll come to you. I think this is a ridiculous idea. I have yet to see any evidence whatsoever that the idea is that you can support an industry by taxing it more. And so, so, so, you know, that's my, my point of view. But if it is going to come ahead and Bernard, I think you're right that it's going to be in the budget tomorrow. We all want to make sure it's done in the most helpful or least destructive way to that extent. Therefore, there's been a debate and a consultation and lots of views and opinions coming in about how the levy should come in, whether it should be a X pounds per person per night or a percentage levy.
Could you just explain, first of all, Bernard, what what you would like to see, what you think the preferred option would be? And Alastair, I'll come to you in a moment.
10:17
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
I suppose there are two answers to that. In our submission we've put that it should be a percentage rate. So it would be a progressive taxation if you like the easiest. However, to. Administer would be a flat rate of X pounds. So £4, £5, something like that. But that would be disproportionate though, according to whether you're staying at Claridge's or to travel in. So our preference would be a progressive rate.
10:18
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Absolutely. I keep deferring to Bernard here. It's so regressive to do a per system, a per person, per night, per room, per night, per place, per night. Our pricing varies hugely from the summer to the winter. It's the winter we're trying to build. A percentage goes down as an amount with over the cost, whereas a flat rate stays at the rate and can become enormous. In example, in Wales, you know, it went from sort of three 4% tax to a 20% tax. So the regressive nature of a of a per rate is, is less favourable for us.
Yeah.
Yeah.
10:19
Cameron Thomas
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Cameron Thomas
And and and look with the the other element here is of course we're talking a lot and focus a lot on tourism here. But the reality is this will be imposed on all commercial accommodation types, absolutely everything. So it will therefore impact not just tourism but business travel, visiting friends and relatives, carers staying overnight to look after relatives and absolutely everything. Any of you comment here do you think? Do you think that's right? Is that going to help the economy?
10:20
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
I don't think you can distinguish between different constituencies or demographic types, but. But to come back, Nigel, if I may, to to your first point again, if you were organising the growth strategy of Britain's fifth biggest industry, you would acknowledge the fact that the UK Tourism PLC at the moment is internationally uncompetitive. We're one of the most taxed destinations in the world. This just adds to that tax base. It makes us uncompetitive. But also we've seen that when successive governments have had added tax burdens, customers have responded. So, for example, we no longer have tax free shopping.
That's an act of economic self-harm. I think the quicker that this government reintroduces that, the better. We've got a VAT at 20%. It's often argued that we should have an overnight visitor levy, because so many other European countries in particular do as well, but they don't have 20% on their tourism economy. The vast majority have either 10% on their tourism economy, including accommodation, or less than 10%, or.
That's an act of economic self-harm. I think the quicker that this government reintroduces that, the better. We've got a VAT at 20%. It's often argued that we should have an overnight visitor levy, because so many other European countries in particular do as well, but they don't have 20% on their tourism economy. The vast majority have either 10% on their tourism economy, including accommodation, or less than 10%, or.
10:22
Cameron Thomas
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Cameron Thomas
Indeed, it's a deliberate strategy to reduce overtourism, which is exactly the point. I know some colleagues are going to come in on affordability and the details of the mechanics later on, so probably park some of that at the moment. But probably, Alastair, can I just come to you here as well? Again, just looking at how not so much the who will pay and the arranging of, of, of, you know, whether the imposition of the admin is on colleagues, colleagues will come in on that. What about how it will really be covered? Because is it possible in this day and age where we've got often packaging and all inclusive or B&B to actually say which bit is the accommodation bit versus which is which?
Isn't this going to just cause confusion and difficulty for those administering it?
Isn't this going to just cause confusion and difficulty for those administering it?
10:24
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
I'm sure I have great sympathy with any of these tax systems when they when they impact one sector more than others. So if you've got food and beverage, how do you separate it? I understand all those challenges. I think the way that I would look at it is that at the end of the day, the consumer is less worried about how something is Componentized I made that word up. What they're looking for is what the price is. And with the CMA rulings, we have to have a final price. We have to show that final price so it'll become somewhat invisible.
What I would say is that, you know, we've analysed our data very closely for the last three years and the prices haven't gone up by inflation. And so in 2028, if you, the government say to us, we've got to add to our business costs, because that's what it'll be 5% and we want to cover inflation. We're going to be trying to put our prices up in 2028 by almost 10%. I would defy any of you in this room to find a business that can put their prices up by 10% in a year. So this is going to end up being paid and absorbed by the businesses.
This is a business tax. Make no mistake, before profit, before anybody takes any money out of it, it's a business tax. And business taxes will hit investment jobs and the local economies.
What I would say is that, you know, we've analysed our data very closely for the last three years and the prices haven't gone up by inflation. And so in 2028, if you, the government say to us, we've got to add to our business costs, because that's what it'll be 5% and we want to cover inflation. We're going to be trying to put our prices up in 2028 by almost 10%. I would defy any of you in this room to find a business that can put their prices up by 10% in a year. So this is going to end up being paid and absorbed by the businesses.
This is a business tax. Make no mistake, before profit, before anybody takes any money out of it, it's a business tax. And business taxes will hit investment jobs and the local economies.
10:26
Cameron Thomas
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Cameron Thomas
So and of course there are many arguments as well. And there's lots of arguments in the submissions for exemptions. You know, very small pitches. You know, where you've got, you know, those kind of things that creates real complexity in the actual implementation of a tax system there. But I know that will all be considered. Bernard, you mentioned as well, we're already one of the highest taxed countries in the world for tourism, which I think is beyond question, I suppose. My question for all of you, and I'll make sure, Anthony, you've got a opportunity here, therefore, and Bernard, you articulated, you know, kind of not a really clear strategy.
Different government departments, different, you know, responsible for different things. The taxation element here, business department involved DCMs involved Cabinet Office coming in number ten views and opinions all the time. Do you think this speaks and let's be fair across government to not understanding tourism and not prioritising tourism as the important industry that you said it is?
Different government departments, different, you know, responsible for different things. The taxation element here, business department involved DCMs involved Cabinet Office coming in number ten views and opinions all the time. Do you think this speaks and let's be fair across government to not understanding tourism and not prioritising tourism as the important industry that you said it is?
10:28
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Yes, absolutely. And I'll just add to that as well, which is it's just been clarified for us that the overnight visitor levy would also be subject to VAT. Ultimately, you would have a tax on a tax on a tax, on a payment. That makes no sense, that that makes no sense. Whatever. But but a little further, Nigel, if I may, I first appeared before this select committee 29 years ago when DCMs and indeed this select committee was first created. In the 29 years that this Committee has been standing and its predecessor committees have been standing, we've had 26 tourism ministers.
It's not just a case of not joined up government. There's also a really strong case here for no corporate memory about the importance of tourism across all government departments.
It's not just a case of not joined up government. There's also a really strong case here for no corporate memory about the importance of tourism across all government departments.
10:30
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Yeah, I, I recognize kind of a lot of the frustrations and comments that have been made by other members of the panel. You know, you do see this kind of churn not just in tourism, but in other policy areas as well. I think one thing that gives me kind of an additional moment of reflection on, on this for in the context of devolution, is that that this is being devolved to the mayors who will be responsible for their place and will take a place. First approach to the implementation of this levy, I think, should help resolve some of the problems that have been presented by members of this of this panel.
The mayors are all very conscious of the impact of policies that they make upon jobs and investment and the economy in their local area. If this becomes the single most important revenue stream to them, that will focus minds even more.
The mayors are all very conscious of the impact of policies that they make upon jobs and investment and the economy in their local area. If this becomes the single most important revenue stream to them, that will focus minds even more.
10:32
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
I just think this is the wrong tax at the wrong time in in. I appreciate you can see support for it for metro areas where the scale would be dynamic. But Manchester tourism doesn't really work very well in East Devon ism. It really doesn't translate the scale that we would raise. And one final worry that I would have is that I've been I worked with Nigel as tourism minister before, during and after Covid, and we were trying to move business out of London to get it out of London. And that's been government policy for 20 years that I've known about.
And we're about to give London the biggest marketing budget over all the small counties around the country. And who is going to win? Who wins? Visit London or visit East Devon? Just to give you an example.
And we're about to give London the biggest marketing budget over all the small counties around the country. And who is going to win? Who wins? Visit London or visit East Devon? Just to give you an example.
10:34
10:34
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
I just wanted to follow up with one question. So what you've all said has come across very clearly in terms of there is a big difference between if you're a city and outside of cities. So let's take for the moment it's going to happen. And and it works in cities. And you. Bernard said it needs to have functionality, efficiency and effectiveness. Is there a standout city anywhere? Not necessarily just in the UK, but else, you know, elsewhere that you think does this really well, what would you point to? Where would you point to?
10:35
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
I'd point to San Francisco because it's it's the monies are well administered in San Francisco. They also have a statutory registration scheme for accommodation, which is crucial. That's a first step for the implementation of something like this. If we don't know who's providing paid accommodation, then we don't know who to tax. So they have a statutory registration registration scheme and they also go one step further, which is that they hypothecate the monies. So it's 100% ring fence to be reinvested back into San Francisco. San Francisco's culture, heritage, nature and transport. And that's exactly I know, I know, Treasury hate Hypothecation and I understand all the reasons for that.
But this is one of those this is one of those opportunities to reinvest back into the very reason that most people are in accommodation in the first place.
But this is one of those this is one of those opportunities to reinvest back into the very reason that most people are in accommodation in the first place.
10:37
Bayo Alaba
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Bayo Alaba
Thank you. Good morning to you all. So I declare an interest as well. I prior to coming to this place, I worked in hospitality, ran and owned and consulted in businesses sort of across the country in London as well, specifically in terms of my operations. But I now represent a coastal community, which I'll come to in a second. So my first question is, so what effect would the overnight levy have on the affordability of domestic holidays, the UK, the UK's competitiveness as well, and visitor demand? And can I start with yourself, Anthony?
10:38
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Thank you for that question. So I think our starting point on this is that it does make sense for the mayors individually to choose what's right for their area. So, as Joe mentioned yourself, that it might work for a large urban area and it may or may come to that conclusion. It may, on the other hand, not work for a coastal community, and the mayor will take that decision. And that's entirely appropriate that we have different responses across the country, because we have used very different tourism markets across the country. I would expect any local economic assessment to identify both the pros and cons of introducing a visitor levy within within that context, when you look at the evidence on kind of the elasticity of visitor trips between especially business trips and and tourist trips, you do see that tourist trips are considerably more elastic than business trips, that people are more price sensitive.
It also seems to be the case that elasticities for domestic travel are higher than international travel, that once people are have chosen a destination abroad that they want to go to, they're pretty likely to want to continue to go to that, even if there's a small increase in the price. So whereas domestic visitors seem to be more price sensitive. So I would expect that for especially coastal communities where the cost competitiveness is a real kind of key part of their offer, that visitor levy might not make sense in the way that it might make sense in a larger urban area.
It also seems to be the case that elasticities for domestic travel are higher than international travel, that once people are have chosen a destination abroad that they want to go to, they're pretty likely to want to continue to go to that, even if there's a small increase in the price. So whereas domestic visitors seem to be more price sensitive. So I would expect that for especially coastal communities where the cost competitiveness is a real kind of key part of their offer, that visitor levy might not make sense in the way that it might make sense in a larger urban area.
10:41
10:41
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
I entirely agree with Anthony. Anything that puts the price up, particularly in the cost of living crisis, is something that UK citizens are going to be thinking really sensitively about. We're now in year five of the cost of living crisis, and it was only earlier this month that we saw the lowest consumer confidence index since the end of Covid. So people are making really tactical decisions about how they spend their leisure pounds and their leisure hours. And nowadays, particularly for visitor attractions, the competition is not between one visitor attraction and another. It's the average family in the UK has an average disposable leisure budget of £100 per month, so that's a family of four going to a cinema once, or a family of four going out for dinner once, or a day trip, or a subscription to Netflix or Amazon Prime or Disney Plus.
So. So the competition for leisure pound and the leisure hour has become more competitive and people are making really tactical decisions. And if anything looks like it will make the price of a staycation or a domestic holiday more expensive, and the ease to book abroad more engaging and enticing people will do that. So if your question is, do you think this will have a detrimental effect on domestic tourism? I think from a price point of view, it undoubtedly will.
So. So the competition for leisure pound and the leisure hour has become more competitive and people are making really tactical decisions. And if anything looks like it will make the price of a staycation or a domestic holiday more expensive, and the ease to book abroad more engaging and enticing people will do that. So if your question is, do you think this will have a detrimental effect on domestic tourism? I think from a price point of view, it undoubtedly will.
10:44
10:44
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Thank you for your comments earlier about the differences in markets. I won't repeat that it will have a greater impact on rural and coastal areas, primarily domestic visitors, primarily not business stays, which are much more sensitive. What I would like to ghost a bit of technology for you. It's the pricing elasticity of demand or PED. Now this is what happens in every business, regardless of whether we're talking about hospitality. You work out how much you can put your prices up by, how much it will push demand down. In a tiny business like ours. That's an argument between my wife and I.
She wants them up. I want them down because otherwise we won't fill up an Airbnb. They've got algorithms and AI, and every bit of it is that argument between up puts the price up, up puts the demand down. UK hospitality Haven and Litchfield have done the work that shows that for every 1% increase in price in our sort of area, rural and coastal, you get a 1.25% increase in demand. So a 5% increase in price, which I genuinely do not think we can pass on because it would result in a 7.5% reduction in bookings.
And that's why I say we can't pass this on. We will have to absorb it.
She wants them up. I want them down because otherwise we won't fill up an Airbnb. They've got algorithms and AI, and every bit of it is that argument between up puts the price up, up puts the demand down. UK hospitality Haven and Litchfield have done the work that shows that for every 1% increase in price in our sort of area, rural and coastal, you get a 1.25% increase in demand. So a 5% increase in price, which I genuinely do not think we can pass on because it would result in a 7.5% reduction in bookings.
And that's why I say we can't pass this on. We will have to absorb it.
10:47
Bayo Alaba
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Bayo Alaba
Okay. And in terms of just going back to yourself, Anthony, you were talking about the fact that things are very centralised in terms of the UK economy. And so how do you incentivise sort of local government to invest, which then obviously creates the experience, improves the experience for visitors. So what do we do? I know, Alistair, you were talking about feasibility and I link into that sort of SIC codes, that kind of stuff. So the case can be made to the Treasury and things like that. And you also mentioned like the need for a proper impact assessment.
And so in a sort of roundabout way, how do local economies, local councils support an industry that's important to them, where we know the challenges of investment and finances at local government level? Again, touching on your point, Bernard, right at the very top. What do they do? How do how do they try and make the case?
And so in a sort of roundabout way, how do local economies, local councils support an industry that's important to them, where we know the challenges of investment and finances at local government level? Again, touching on your point, Bernard, right at the very top. What do they do? How do how do they try and make the case?
10:49
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Yeah, I think this has to be the first step in a longer journey towards fiscal devolution. We're going to hear what's in the fiscal devolution roadmap tomorrow with the budget. And hopefully that does set out not just what's in the visitor levy and the proposals that have been already announced, but a longer period beyond the spending review of, you know, increased fiscal autonomy to to local government, that's going to have to entail a closer connection between the economic base of a place and its local government across far more than just tourism, you know, across things like industrial space and things like domestic property, things like kind of income tax sharing, etc..
That's all going to be really important if we want to provide a broad set of incentives for, for places to help grow their local local economies. But I think in the context of, you know, we know other countries around the world have these sorts of, of levies and sorts of taxes. We know that in particular, the big cities can absorb this kind of this kind of lovely. And it can provide both the funding to help finance larger schemes such as the the New Beatles Museum, which is being developed in Liverpool, but also hopefully change incentives on the margin to help help them support more hotels being built, help the mayors and local government, support street cleaning and improve both the visitor experience, but also the residential experience in places where visitors are likely to visit.
That's all going to be really important if we want to provide a broad set of incentives for, for places to help grow their local local economies. But I think in the context of, you know, we know other countries around the world have these sorts of, of levies and sorts of taxes. We know that in particular, the big cities can absorb this kind of this kind of lovely. And it can provide both the funding to help finance larger schemes such as the the New Beatles Museum, which is being developed in Liverpool, but also hopefully change incentives on the margin to help help them support more hotels being built, help the mayors and local government, support street cleaning and improve both the visitor experience, but also the residential experience in places where visitors are likely to visit.
10:52
Bayo Alaba
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Bayo Alaba
Can I come to you quickly? A slight tweak on that question so I understand your journey. Obviously, I ran businesses and it's important, you know, with regards to taxes, how how that can affect profitability and you want to survive and thrive. So if the local authority, for example, could ensure what is needed to earn your trust in terms of how a visitor levy could be spent wisely, that will sustain and support your sort of industry? Is there a case to be made for that?
10:53
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Regrettably, I'm not sure that there is because I, like many in this room, do not believe that we would get hypothecation or ring fencing. So without a guarantee that the money was going to be spent collectively and wisely, I don't really want to go forward with that. It's going to cost my business somewhere in the region of £20,000 a year. I think I could invest that £20,000 on extending the visitor experience better than the local council could.
With respect to the local council, who is very supportive of tourism. Okay.
With respect to the local council, who is very supportive of tourism. Okay.
10:54
10:54
10:54
Jeff Smith
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Jeff Smith
Anthony reminded us by implication that this is a permissive measure. So it's a voluntary thing for for areas to come into. So I suppose my question is if we want to give cities like Manchester, my city, where it's worked well, visitor levy the opportunity to to raise that levy, isn't it the right approach to, to have this kind of permissive measure? So if rural and coastal areas don't want to take it up, that's fine. But it's big cities want to take it up.
That's up to them. Is that not the right approach?
That's up to them. Is that not the right approach?
10:55
10:56
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
I would say this comes down to as part of the process, there have to be robust economic impact assessments and local council consulting with the with the citizens in their area, rather than what's been suggested that there is a fast track to this. I think proper economic impact assessments and local consultations because you need local solutions to local challenges.
10:56
10:57
10:57
10:57
10:57
10:57
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Thank you. Thanks, Geoff. Good morning. I want to focus a little now on the potential impact on tourism business, which we've kind of touched upon already with one of my colleague's questions. I think primarily for Bernard and Alastair, maybe first from Bernard, how should the government assess the impact of the levy. alongside the other tax. regulatory and employment cost .
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Pressures currently facing tourism businesses? I think the first thing is to be transparent about how the current. tourism strategy, the UK government tourism strategy is being created. We've heard no news about it for several months. When I was at VisitBritain, I managed to write a government a UK tourism strategy. In three months. This government has had two and a half years and we've yet to see. Apart from isolated policy proposals, we've yet to see anything. comprehensive or useful. I think the second thing would be that the taxation burden needs to be at the heart of that.
So being very critically honest about our international. competitiveness against countries like Spain and Italy and France and Germany and also the USA, and what the tax burden actually is. And if that could be relieved at all before adding a further tax, that. consumers are likely to be affected by in terms of their .
So being very critically honest about our international. competitiveness against countries like Spain and Italy and France and Germany and also the USA, and what the tax burden actually is. And if that could be relieved at all before adding a further tax, that. consumers are likely to be affected by in terms of their .
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
This is a useful further tax step. So I think we've got to look at it in the round. I mean most of the MPs in here are very familiar with our cumulative impacts. DNA that's what's been thrown at us since Covid. You know this is not looked at in the round. It's looked at in silos individually. This is this has to be looked at as part of an.
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
We don't have a visitor economy growth strategy. As Bernard has said several times in there. You know, we were hoping for a. domestic target. We have an international target, but not a domestic target. And domestic tourism, particularly rural and coastal, is in freefall. So, you know, again, would you want to be the tourism minister, Nigel writing a visitor economy growth. strategy with no tax changes, no regulatory changes, no. budget and bring a visitor levy in on top. You know, that's not a gig I'd want to write. You know, as Bernard alluded to, we shouldn't really be starting from where we are today.
We should have a strategy. And then if it was part of a strategy, we might .
We should have a strategy. And then if it was part of a strategy, we might .
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
That there's no detail yet, but we have the examples of Scotland and Wales, which I would refer the committee to look at very closely, if only as a case study in learning on how perhaps not to do them. We think it's likely to be quarterly making tax digital is quarterly. So that would be another burden when we're told by the government that they want to cut the regulatory burden by.
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Of an extra tax. It's a whole new tax. It's not done by any currently existing system. It's going to have to be built, managed, checked all of those things. So we are being asked by Treasury to report on how many hours that might take. And we are in the process of doing that. But it is it's another burden on very small businesses that already have to deal with all of that. I think we've got to start treating small businesses with a bit more respect. You know, they are they don't ask for a great deal and they get demanded a great deal of it'll be another administrative .
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Well or better than others? No. So, I mean, we've looked to try and find good examples. None. None of them. None of them are perfect. It's a very complex tax to do because my colleagues behind would be giving different evidence than I will, because it will affect their sector differently than mine. And I, you know, if I was representing them, I'd say that. And if they were representing me, they'd say what I've said. It's a very. complex tax. It sounds dead easy. Just charge a price of a cup of coffee on a stay and we'll all have lots of free money.
It's much more complicated than that. And I go back to you must do robust economic impact assessments, not short cut or raise this through legislation.
It's much more complicated than that. And I go back to you must do robust economic impact assessments, not short cut or raise this through legislation.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Who has technical. responsibility is something that is is absolutely required and required quickly if the legislation is going to come through, as we suspect it might in the next couple of days. A good bulk of. accommodation has already been sold for next year, so that won't be taken into account in terms of new legislation. So anything that we're talking about has to be at least. 2 or 3 years in advance of that in order to and this isn't this isn't.
stonewalling in order to have exactly the kind of measures and the functionality in .
stonewalling in order to have exactly the kind of measures and the functionality in .
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Lot of in a lot of respects. I mean, pay on arrival is something that we wouldn't welcome. We don't want to get into disputes with our guests about whether they need to pay a tax or not. You need to put it into the whole booking process because the CMA says it has to be that way. And so therefore, if they were booking in our sector or hotels where you pay or put your credit card in at the point of booking, it would have to be included in that price at that point, but the remittance date would have to be post the date of the booking completing because if the booking doesn't.
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
For tourism and hospitality. They brought the German. Hotel Association manager over, and I think he has to manage. 38 or 42 different. systems in different cities. And some states in Germany have said no more tourist taxes until you sort it out. I mean, it can get to be so. desperate that you get all the issues that then follow that guest. Confusion is one of the biggest ones you need to worry about with everybody setting a different tax and everybody setting a different tax will cause displacement issues. You know, if I if Cornwall were to set.
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Bayo Alaba
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Bayo Alaba
So that's what's going to happen. Did you want to come in on that. Yeah. Just just really quickly. Bernard, you were talking about the fact that, you know, you've had 26 ministers. There's no sort of coordinated approach. So and I totally get it. You know, up until a few years ago, I was in that world as well. So I understand that sort of frustration.
But this isn't a. particularly party. political issue. This is a government. This is just how we've looked at the. industry over a.
But this isn't a. particularly party. political issue. This is a government. This is just how we've looked at the. industry over a.
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Bayo Alaba
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Bayo Alaba
And so would be my perspective. You mentioned something earlier about corporate memory as well, which I think is a really, really good point. And I agree with you, and I really don't want to be overly sensitive about this, but so corporate memory totally understand. So and that's obviously linked to sort of taxation approaches. What would .
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
You do? What would you do differently? Well, thank you for giving me the role of tourism Minister. I appreciate it enormously. It's absolutely it's not a flippant point that in the last 29 years, we have had 26 tourism ministers. The average tenure of a tourism minister in DCMs is less than 14 months. A notable exception was Nigel Huddleston, who, I have to say, from a completely non-political point of view, was the right minister at the right time in the wrong crisis and thank goodness that he was there for two and a half years. But but there is a point about not only no corporate memory being sustained by changing ministers on a very regular basis.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Are present on looking at tourism. So tourism UK tourism PLC, that has happened from time to time. It was it was. resurrected under the last conservative government to, I think, great effect. particularly in terms of crisis management. But because we have such a silo mentality within different government.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
When you have something like tourism, which is as important for transport as home office as culture, media and sport, as treasury, as communities and local government, etcetera, etcetera. You do need a consistent thought through approach, which is. comprehensive and ambitious. I think at the moment we don't have that, as evidenced by the fact that we're still waiting two .
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Years on for a tourism strategy from the government. I'd like can I come back on that? I'd like to go back to what was in our original. submission when you asked for a call for evidence, and that was a whole different look at the way that tourism is, is valued by government, the way it's recorded in the Green Book. You know, businesses like mine are displacement. You'd spend the money in Essex rather than coming down to Devon, wouldn't you? Whereas, you know, you go abroad, you know, that tax money that's spent while they're at my place is tax revenue that the Chancellor gets.
You know, we've got to start looking at the way we value. tourism differently. We've got to have that growth strategy. And stuff has got to be within that. So that we should be talking in here about how to grow the domestic visitor economy, not have isolated conversations about. components like this. So I would urge very much that, you know, we really do start looking at it as the fifth largest economy and the impact that .
You know, we've got to start looking at the way we value. tourism differently. We've got to have that growth strategy. And stuff has got to be within that. So that we should be talking in here about how to grow the domestic visitor economy, not have isolated conversations about. components like this. So I would urge very much that, you know, we really do start looking at it as the fifth largest economy and the impact that .
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Rupa Huq
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Rupa Huq
There's certainly not growth driven. Thank you very much. Let's move on to Rupert, please. Thanks. Yeah, I wanted to again, we've touched on it a little bits and pieces of the San Francisco experience that flashed up earlier. I wanted to move on to how, assuming it is happening tomorrow, how the levy revenue should be. allocated and governed. So if a levy is.
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
You square those three? Anyone who wants it. Yeah. Our position is that we shouldn't have. hypothecation of the visitor levy, and there's a few reasons for that. One is that when we look abroad and we look at how hypothecation systems work, you can we don't see many examples of sort of hard. hypothecation where there's a very specific commitment that the revenues must be spent on X, Y, Z program. Instead, we see these kind of vaguer commitments, as Bernard mentioned, to support the visitor economy. As Bernard said, those don't often translate into actual. Then support on the ground for for the visitor economy.
And if we're thinking about the the logic of the argument here for the visitor levy and fiscal devolution to drive growth is it needs to. It's not just kind of money coming in. And that is then spent on things that improve the visitor economy is that it changes the. behaviour of mayors and local government to to enable more. activity to happen than would otherwise. So there needs to be quite strong commitments. I would say, from that. The mayor.
themselves needs to make to do things that they wouldn't have done.
And if we're thinking about the the logic of the argument here for the visitor levy and fiscal devolution to drive growth is it needs to. It's not just kind of money coming in. And that is then spent on things that improve the visitor economy is that it changes the. behaviour of mayors and local government to to enable more. activity to happen than would otherwise. So there needs to be quite strong commitments. I would say, from that. The mayor.
themselves needs to make to do things that they wouldn't have done.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Would argue. Okay. Yeah. What do you think? I would take a different view. This is an opportunity for. Hypothecation to work and to be tested to see that it works. Currently, culture, heritage, tourism and nature are not statutory duties, and so they're the first to be shared when local authorities are looking at cutting their budgets. And in addition to my day job, I chair a number of things. And one of them is the London and the South East region. For the National Trust. We probably get within our region alone 2 or 3 calls a week from a local authority saying.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Would you National Trust, be prepared to take them on? And of course, the answer is no, not without cash. And so what. Hypothecation does and ring fencing that money. 100% to be reinvested back into those. non-statutory duties which have. really fallen by the wayside over the course of the last 20 years or so, is to reinvest back into the. reasons why most people are coming to visit different places. So culture, heritage, tourism and nature. And of course, it can lend itself to other things like tourism, infrastructure and transport. So when Andy Burnham was mayor of Greater Manchester, we had really good conversations about.
hypothecating the money in Greater. Manchester for use in. strategic investments, not just tactical investments, but.
hypothecating the money in Greater. Manchester for use in. strategic investments, not just tactical investments, but.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Such as an equivalent of the V&A. storehouse of the north, so museums and galleries could combine and have a collection centre in the north of England. Similarly, in the in the West Country I chair Bristol Old Vic Theatre. We no longer receive any money from Bristol City Council, despite being one of the most important commissioning and producing. houses in the whole of the UK. And that's because culture is not a statutory duty.
So what this provides us with is hypothecating. In order to. reinvest into the very.
So what this provides us with is hypothecating. In order to. reinvest into the very.
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
To travel in the first place. Alistair, how do you. I said I would come at it from making sure that the people who are having to charge the levy, administer it and send it back, have a fair say at some kind of forum within the area? Cardiff is an example. They've set up a forum there which is a mixture of the accommodation providers and where on that panel, other visitor economy partners in the city and the council, and you sit down together and you try and work out the best possible plan forward. But unless that is a.
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
It is things like skills. It is things like planning. So in principle, I think we would say that it's acceptable for. If some of the revenues are then used to support an expansion of the planning team, that then facilitates the construction of more hotels or a wider other sort of visitor attraction in, in, in the area. That could be justifiable. But obviously the mayor would need to justify this to both. residents and also to the businesses that are paying the levy.
So if there's a kind of vague.
So if there's a kind of vague.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
One of the opportunities that this gives us is to think afresh about local government settlements. We wouldn't want this money to fill the gaps of the poverty of local authorities. I think it's still the case that the Local government Association say that 1 in 4 local authorities in England are on the cusp of bankruptcy. This is not a solution to that. The solution to that is getting local government settlement right between central government and local authorities.
This is not a .
This is not a .
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Specify how it should be spent on the face of the bill. Any other, I think, to avoid what has been said, that it's going to need to be pretty specific. Otherwise two things could happen. One is it will just get absorbed into General Council budget and. But the second one is I think we need to be fearful of is that there are lots of councils who are really strapped, who do value tourism and find some small way to support them. Not not many these days, but some do. And if this comes in, I would suspect that what you'll have is instead of them continuing to find that budget to support tourism, that will get lost back into the general mix, and they will use the tourism tax to replace it.
So that won't be extra money.
So that won't be extra money.
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Used in the wrong way, propping up other gaps. I really would argue that the fact that it's going to the strategic authorities rather than to local authorities will mitigate most of that risk. The essays don't have the same. statutory responsibilities that local authorities do, and they are don't have the same funding pressures that local authorities do. It may be the case that strategic authority may wish to share some of the proceeds with their constituents.
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
One can imagine maybe, say, a large city. sharing some of the proceeds of the of the revenue raise to help fund street cleaning, which is a service which is provided by the local authority beneath the strategic authority. But I think given the proposals that the government has set out, I don't think there is any significant risk of proceeds from the levy being used to .
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Rupa Huq
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Rupa Huq
Social care, certainly not in the combined authorities where the large urban areas are. And then just lastly, I mean London, I'm a London MP, there are 32 boroughs. There is the City of London. I represent two of the London borough of Ealing, London Borough of Hammersmith and Fulham. They would love a bit of this rather than it just being swallowed up by .
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
To the mayor rather than to the constituent boroughs. I've got one inner and outer. Yeah. Yes. But I think there's definitely a case, perhaps for some degree of sharing, as mentioned, between between the strategic authority and the local authority to cover some of those local services. I've touched on the visitor economy, but if we just did it for a local authority level, then we'd just see.
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Camden City of London would snaffle up the vast majority of the receipts, and most of the rest of London would see very little. The fact that it's been collected either entirely or primarily by the GLA, actually then means that the mayoralty can fund. interventions that. support tourism across the wider the wider city region. But I think in particular, it's intervention to support the labour market and the transport network that enables people across London and all Londoners working in the visitor economy, even if they work in the city centre,
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Anything else anyone? Does the mayor know best, or should the boroughs? I think you know, some of these things still fall down very much to me that there's possibilities of it working in a metro context, but not in a rural and coastal context. I think if you're saying that, you know, Exeter decided that it was going to raise a visitor levy, I'd be in that area to pay it. But I'm 20 miles from Exeter. I get very I see very little of the. I'd be paying it, but not getting any benefits and being. If I was a.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Budgets, aren't they? So I think you'd struggle. One of the best estimates for London is that this could raise. £150 million a year, and so all local authorities within London will want a slice of that action. I think one of the things that that Sadiq Khan has , has said, and I think is incredibly useful and.
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Speaker 7
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Speaker 7
In a way that was very painful, actually. And I know that that local government does grapple with this to try and find some kind of balance that, you know, that there is a broad spend on things that that matter to people beyond the actual nuts and bolts services. So I know it's a, it's a huge issue. The ring fencing these funds for the area. So coming at it from a place based.
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Speaker 7
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Speaker 7
Street cleaning, making the place nice , added value to why people want to come. I do believe that that will have a real positive impact on the businesses that operate there. So I just wonder to Alastair, really. complexities aside with the visitor levy as a whole and I appreciate it's you know, I can see the complexities in. administrating it. But do you think there's an argument if there's good local.
consultation and a robust.
consultation and a robust.
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Robust economic impact assessment and a local consultation local level, though if that was done in Wales, Cardiff voted to have one a city and the three North West counties said no because they had to go through a process and had to ask people. So I'm going to reset on that. I don't think that it's impossible to come up with a tourist levy, tourist tax, a visitor tax that could be better. It's not what we're looking at at the moment. There's so many unanswered questions on this one that leave it to the point it's impossible to ask that question.
If I genuinely thought that the money was going to be spent. absolutely in place to improve place, to a way that my visitors would. recognise that the money that they will believe that they're spending, whether I'm absorbing it or not, they'll think they're spending it. The optic is the price of the holiday has gone up because the tax, whether I put the price up or not, they need to see a tangible benefit. So whilst I can see the scale that Bernard talks to, that wouldn't affect, you know, in my area, there's no single thing like that that you could do.
You'd have to have a myriad of things that local government, I'll call it, that was doing that we could sell as as why this tax is in place. We can't just .
If I genuinely thought that the money was going to be spent. absolutely in place to improve place, to a way that my visitors would. recognise that the money that they will believe that they're spending, whether I'm absorbing it or not, they'll think they're spending it. The optic is the price of the holiday has gone up because the tax, whether I put the price up or not, they need to see a tangible benefit. So whilst I can see the scale that Bernard talks to, that wouldn't affect, you know, in my area, there's no single thing like that that you could do.
You'd have to have a myriad of things that local government, I'll call it, that was doing that we could sell as as why this tax is in place. We can't just .
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Caroline Dinenage
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Caroline Dinenage
Impose it. They'll, they'll they'll reject it and they'll go and stay somewhere else. I'm going to move this on. Alison. Thank you chair. So I'd just like to say that I'm the chair of the Appg for Coastal Communities. And as a MP that represents a coastal community, Scarborough and Whitby, with. Which depends on tourism, I'd make the the observations that we have. The first rural metro mayor in York and North Yorkshire, which is a. It's an issue really, because we've got a city. York with five star hotels. And then on the coast we have a very different tourism economy, highly competitive, highly price sensitive, lot of family run businesses.
And, and I, and I think that this is it's almost a, an example of, of what's been raised today about how in one authority, we could have a very different range of tourism and the competitive dynamics within that it. We also assume that all mayors will take the tourist levy and in fact, they won't. So there will be businesses who have. Been similar businesses like caravan parks just down the road, say in Lincolnshire, that won't be having the tourism levy. So I think there's already quite a lot of, you know, there's a lot in the mix.
And certainly when I speak to my local businesses, I spoke to about 30 they they were all really worried about this particular issue. So looking at the local flexibility, the ability to lay the tourist levy, I think the government is saying you're either in or you're out, and it's a percentage. But but would different local rates, exemptions and administrative arrangements across England create confusion and complexity for visitors and for businesses operating in more than one area? And Nigel, you've you've touched on this, but if .
And, and I, and I think that this is it's almost a, an example of, of what's been raised today about how in one authority, we could have a very different range of tourism and the competitive dynamics within that it. We also assume that all mayors will take the tourist levy and in fact, they won't. So there will be businesses who have. Been similar businesses like caravan parks just down the road, say in Lincolnshire, that won't be having the tourism levy. So I think there's already quite a lot of, you know, there's a lot in the mix.
And certainly when I speak to my local businesses, I spoke to about 30 they they were all really worried about this particular issue. So looking at the local flexibility, the ability to lay the tourist levy, I think the government is saying you're either in or you're out, and it's a percentage. But but would different local rates, exemptions and administrative arrangements across England create confusion and complexity for visitors and for businesses operating in more than one area? And Nigel, you've you've touched on this, but if .
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Which would then have to be at some point checked out, perhaps by the visitor accommodation provider themselves. I don't want my members to have to be a judge about whether somebody is actually disabled or is 14 years old, or is a veteran or a Boy Scout. You know, you can't put that kind of burden on hospitality providers. So exemptions sound great in principle, and my heart goes out to those. But if they're going to be administered, they need to be done like they are in Scotland, where you pay the tax and you reclaim it, and therefore you're putting a burden back into the system and cost.
This is another reason why it's an imperfect tax. So I'd say that's a that's a real danger. Another point you alluded to when you have a mayoral area that goes has both a metro and a rural context. I really doubt that the rural businesses that we. represent would see as much benefit as the ones who were getting the work done in, in the Metro. Part of that area. This is why it is splitting even in this meeting between, you know, horses for .
This is another reason why it's an imperfect tax. So I'd say that's a that's a real danger. Another point you alluded to when you have a mayoral area that goes has both a metro and a rural context. I really doubt that the rural businesses that we. represent would see as much benefit as the ones who were getting the work done in, in the Metro. Part of that area. This is why it is splitting even in this meeting between, you know, horses for .
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
To start from. Anthony we would argue that having a single national framework, but then mayors being able to decide whether to levy the rate and what rate to levy it at, makes sense that you can adjust the degree of the tax burden and the reward relative to the needs of the local economy. We would say that it doesn't make much sense for that national framework to allow mayors to. vary the rate by local authority that that is not only going to introduce more.
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
But it's also going to introduce a situation where mayors are incentivized to really squeeze the pips of the local authorities, where there's a high demand for for tourism in that area, risking kind of wider impacts to, to the national economy. I think just to come back a little bit to Jill said about, you know, is there a place based local aspect to this? We think that that's right, that there is a behavioural impact that we think is at the core of the logic for the government's fiscal devolution agenda. And absolutely essential corollary to that is that whatever levies are raised by the whatever revenues are raised by the levy for the different mayoral areas, they should not be.
equalized between different mayoral areas. If a place is essentially to be penalised with less grant for. levying a visitor levy, that's going to. completely blunt the. incentive to try to grow the visitor economy in that particular area. That is truly just a burden on business without any of the growth incentives side of it. So we have to allow, if the revenue is raised for place allowance decides to go for it, if they decide to set a rate at whatever rate they deem.
equalized between different mayoral areas. If a place is essentially to be penalised with less grant for. levying a visitor levy, that's going to. completely blunt the. incentive to try to grow the visitor economy in that particular area. That is truly just a burden on business without any of the growth incentives side of it. So we have to allow, if the revenue is raised for place allowance decides to go for it, if they decide to set a rate at whatever rate they deem.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Purposes, not a kind of input into a national government grant formula. Yeah. Okay. Can I come back to you, Anthony, briefly on that? You know, tourism doesn't really fit the mayoral boundaries. So going back to the price sensitive lower end of the domestic tourism, which is so valued, such as the holiday parks, you've got a holiday park in North Yorkshire and then just over the border, there'll be one that doesn't have the tourist levy. And .
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Reviews or indeed a. sunset clause? Bernard. Yes. Yes, yes. Yes and yes. This this is so. complex and and potentially such an. opportunity that it needs adequate thought analysis and consultation. And that's not a again, it's not a stonewalling piece. This is so fraught with difficulties. And as you've just.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Holiday parks, the bed and breakfast. It's the lower average cost. accommodation that's going to be hit hardest by this, and the people, perhaps in lower income streams that are going to be thinking they're paying this. Even if they don't, they don't. And the reaction and the Wales. consultation on this was lower income groups reaction to these kind of taxes is described as visceral.
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Their financial sustainability. Anthony. I think it's perhaps harder to justify kind of a sunset clause. I don't know of any other tax in the UK or indeed similar, you know, systems elsewhere that have that kind of phasing out. One element that we'd expect this to be pro-growth is that a percentage based levy is a buoyant tax, where revenues rise over time as the economy grows and expands. If that's set to expire at some point in the future, that is, that will dent the ability of both mayors to borrow against that revenue, but also the ability of them to sort of, you know, levy that tax with the idea of, of spending that on projects that are actually good for the economy.
But absolutely, you know, any such levy should come with not just an assessment of what's the impact going to be on businesses and how they plan to spend the money, but also, what are the commitments from the mayors that are about their behaviour that they're going to change in .
But absolutely, you know, any such levy should come with not just an assessment of what's the impact going to be on businesses and how they plan to spend the money, but also, what are the commitments from the mayors that are about their behaviour that they're going to change in .
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
They're an absolute must. Thank you. Bernard. I merely thank you for looking at tourism again. I think this is the fourth time that this select committee or its predecessor, predecessor select committees have put pressure on the government to take tourism more seriously. And I just end by saying that tourism isn't just where you grow jobs, but we're very good at it. Tourism is also .
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
And that needs to be factored in as well. Brilliant. Thank you very much, Anthony. Thank you. I think for me, it's that it's emphasizing that this is a levy that will be right in some areas, and it's not going to be right in other areas. And it's appropriate that the mayors should have the power to ultimately decide is .
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Speaker 8
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Speaker 8
Local growth? So, Laura, if you wanted to start. Thank you very much. The new national system, which has clear structured layers of destination management, is the right one. But in our view it is. underfunded and therefore not able to be effective because it doesn't have sufficient long term funding. But the structure. itself was. created after a very thorough review, and we support the structure.
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Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
I mean, I'd say it varies tremendously across the nation. Depending on size, region and other factors. For us, in particular in Somerset and Exmoor, the Local Visitor Economy Partnership. programme has been fantastic. It's given us an. opportunity to have a seat at the table with many bigger areas, and it has forced us to work with partners that we wouldn't have done before. So what the the Du Bois review noticed was that there were so many disparate organisations working towards the same end, and that was very evident, certainly in more rural areas. And we we've brought together many different.
organisations now sitting at the table together. We're a partnership of four and that has that has forced us to to come together to to get the .
organisations now sitting at the table together. We're a partnership of four and that has that has forced us to to come together to to get the .
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Speaker 10
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Speaker 10
It's a problem of funding. The Du Bois review recommended these different layers that we would have from kind of a national through to a regional through to a local. I think that's very sensible. That was very well, well received by the industry, but the funding hasn't been there to see it through to its end as well. So you have a lot of destinations. And in fact, the Tourism Management. Institute released a report this week last week.
Apologies. We're 90 destinations across UK and Ireland had completed it. And some of the statistics within it are.
Apologies. We're 90 destinations across UK and Ireland had completed it. And some of the statistics within it are.
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Speaker 10
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Speaker 10
You have a lot of. destinations where 16% of destinations don't have a full time employed person looking after that destination. I think. 22% of them said that they were unlikely to survive the next five years. A lot of people often think around tourism that it's all to do with the marketing. The point of the lvot, yes, of course it's to do with marketing, but more importantly, it's to do with the management of tourism. If I give you an example, 80% of all inbound tourists who come to the UK will use an intermediary. 45% of those will use a tour operator.
Yeah. They need product. They need international ready product. They need product that has commissions, that has. allocations in it, that is ready 18 months in advance without the people in the. destination to provide that training, that business support, that the training for people to understand what international tourists are looking for. You don't get sold internationally. If 45% of the business is coming through tour.
Yeah. They need product. They need international ready product. They need product that has commissions, that has. allocations in it, that is ready 18 months in advance without the people in the. destination to provide that training, that business support, that the training for people to understand what international tourists are looking for. You don't get sold internationally. If 45% of the business is coming through tour.
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Speaker 10
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Speaker 10
They don't feature your programmes. You simply aren't on the shelves to get sold. So without that, in minimal investment and it is small. investment for the Lvefs to be able to have that business support function. It doesn't matter what marketing they're undertaking because frankly, you're not going to get sold. So the, the, the approach of the Dubois review was absolutely right. We don't need another restructure. We need to make sure that these lvefs are invested in and at a base level to allow them to.
provide the .
provide the .
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Speaker 7
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Speaker 7
Local authorities visit England, visit Britain. And I just thought like, how does anybody understand what each of those do and how do they interact together? So I was quite interested, particularly Laura, in what you said about using the structure works really well. So are those from your perspective? And I'll ask this to all of you. Do you think that those respective roles are clear and.
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Speaker 8
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Speaker 8
Understood and are they effective? At the moment, I'll answer from a London perspective, but I recognise that the situation may be quite different in other parts of the country. The way that we're organised in London is that we have a growth agency as London and Partners. That's the growth agency for the Greater London economy, across all. sectors of which tourism is one. So we act as the local visitor economy partnership and as the convention bureau, and we operate Visit London. But we do that as part of a much broader portfolio of activity. including inward investment.
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Speaker 8
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Speaker 8
Small business support, London global brand and so on. So we are able to look at the experience, economy and. tourism as one growth sector alongside frontier. innovation and professional services and other sectors of the economy. We have a very good working relationship with the team at VisitBritain and Visit England. They are obviously promoting the national story and we the London one, and we are working across three areas at a London level. One is what's the. strategy for the experience economy in London and how do we convene the industry to together shape a. strategy and provide insights and data that businesses use to, to shape their own plans?
The second is that demand generation promotion piece that Joss talked about. So marketing campaigns, but really importantly, also selling business events internationally, which is an important part of demand in London. And then the third. area is around developing that product that Joss has talked about. So supply side.
The second is that demand generation promotion piece that Joss talked about. So marketing campaigns, but really importantly, also selling business events internationally, which is an important part of demand in London. And then the third. area is around developing that product that Joss has talked about. So supply side.
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Speaker 8
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Speaker 8
What do we want the future experience of London to be, and how can we bring in the best. experiences in the world and put them in this city? So it continues to be a world class visitor destination. Our relationship with the national. agency is largely around the demand generation side. So it's it's around collaboration on campaigns. London is a tourism gateway for the UK, and I think we could be doing a lot more to use the visitors that come to London and encouraging them to go and visit other .
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Speaker 7
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Speaker 7
Parts of the UK, but we're not currently doing that systematically. Very glad you said that because that was going to be one. I might just chip in with a question I was going to ask later, but I'll ask you it now, Laura. So I'm just thinking like next year we've got the tour de France, which will go through Scotland, England and Wales the year after. We've got the. euros again.
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Speaker 8
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Speaker 8
Because we find it very frustrating in Wales. So I think we could come back to, to to the first question, the structures are there and the goodwill is there and the partnerships and relationships are there, but there isn't long term multiyear funding on a sustainable basis. So there have, from time to time been pots of money that have been. competitive to do gateway work or joining up different destinations. So, for example, we've recently run a really effective campaign jointly with Scotland, where we've been encouraging visitors to London to also take the train and go and visit Scotland as well.
The results on that are really effective. It shows that it works, but we have to compete for these very small pots of money and it's not multi-year, so you can't build towards it strategically. And some of these events, we know that they're coming years in advance, but we don't know what the funding will .
The results on that are really effective. It shows that it works, but we have to compete for these very small pots of money and it's not multi-year, so you can't build towards it strategically. And some of these events, we know that they're coming years in advance, but we don't know what the funding will .
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Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
The respective roles, you know, do you think they're clear enough as one of the newer. lep's part of our piece of work over the last year and a bit has been to communicate this to our stakeholders in the area. So for us, we're very clear about what an Lvef is. But you say that word to someone who runs a small B&B and they won't know what that is. So we are one of the examples. There is not anyone that is a full time member of staff being paid to run the Lvef and Somerset. Exmoor is all being done out of people's day jobs.
I'm a CEO of a visitor attraction and we're all giving our time to do this thing, which has been sort of imposed from on high now. It has been an excellent thing for us, and we are doing the best we can with our stakeholders to communicate why it's a good thing and why we can represent them so much better now. But it's a long piece of work, and if no one's being funded to do it, even tiny amounts of funding would enable us to employ someone to do even just the admin. So the roles are clear, I think.
And when we can speak to people and we get we have got a network of people we work with and they're very happy with it.
I'm a CEO of a visitor attraction and we're all giving our time to do this thing, which has been sort of imposed from on high now. It has been an excellent thing for us, and we are doing the best we can with our stakeholders to communicate why it's a good thing and why we can represent them so much better now. But it's a long piece of work, and if no one's being funded to do it, even tiny amounts of funding would enable us to employ someone to do even just the admin. So the roles are clear, I think.
And when we can speak to people and we get we have got a network of people we work with and they're very happy with it.
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Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
But we can't deliver them. To talk to Laura's point about bringing people and your point about bringing people around the country, this, for us, is an opportunity to attract more international visitors or domestic visitors out of the cities. And one of the things that we have been lucky enough to do, funded by Visit England, was to attend travel trade shows, for example, in Amsterdam. But when I wanted to go with a business partner, this wasn't funded at all.
So the stand was funded by Visit England, which was great,
So the stand was funded by Visit England, which was great,
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Speaker 10
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Speaker 10
Roles, keep answers a little bit more pithy. Ladies and gentlemen, please. Thank you. Sure. In terms of the clear roles, you know, Visitbritain's role is to drive that demand Visitengland's role as a. coordinating role and the product development side. And then, of course, it's the local, the vets themselves that are there to do the product development, the training, the business.
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Speaker 10
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Speaker 10
They come for the thematics that they're coming for the. destinations that they're wanting as well. So I don't think it matters in terms of the international visitor, in terms of whether they understand. Of course they don't. That's. But that's not the role of the VIPs. The role of the VIPs is to get their. businesses ready to accept these visitors, to develop products.
We, again, we've heard around the kind of international.
We, again, we've heard around the kind of international.
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Jeff Smith
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Jeff Smith
Okay, I'll leave that there. Thank you so much, Jeff. Yes. Just to follow up, thanks for being here, and I'm interested to hear what you say about you. I think you've all said you think the structures are right, and I wonder you all have effectively strategic roles. But we heard from from Jamie, who is the chief executive of Chester Zoo last week, that he he described all these various roles of VisitBritain, VisitEngland, the Dmos as confusing.
And I've heard that similarly from other .
And I've heard that similarly from other .
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Speaker 10
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Speaker 10
And it might be the business support that they're offered through their lvedp, the training, the getting them travel trade ready, getting them international ready. It might be working with VisitBritain and the international offices that visit. Britain has an absolute jewel in the crown that VisitBritain has these international offices. So if you're interested in going to say, for example, you're interested in the Dutch market, working with the people on territory who understand the trade, who understand the media, who understand the operating environment as well.
So I think people .
So I think people .
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Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
Understand better where they see that value most. Yeah. I would come in as someone who is both an attraction and representing the lvedp. The value for the attraction, certainly in our area, is to be able to make their voices heard louder. There's no point for me, as the CEO of the Bishop's Palace, trying to advertise internationally for visitors to come to my.
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Speaker 8
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Speaker 8
Hundreds of . Most of the businesses are small micro businesses. We operate as a social enterprise, a public private partnership funded partly by grant and partly by businesses. And for me, that's really important because if we're not doing things that businesses value, they just won't pay to participate. So we have over 300 businesses in London who are annual paying members of London and partners, and they really hold us accountable for what we're doing, because if they don't feel that we're adding value, they're just not going to renew. And then additionally, some of them choose to come with us on trade missions to go and sell, particularly around business events and conventions and trade shows and others also pay from time to time to participate in marketing campaigns.
And for me, that's a really important test of whether we're doing .
And for me, that's a really important test of whether we're doing .
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Speaker 11
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Speaker 11
Thank you. Thanks very much. Let's move on to Nigel, please. Yeah. Just building. Thank you chair. Just building on what we've talked about there. So the kind of confusing structure is something we've all dealt with for a while. And I think you've previously said the purpose of the Lvedp was was appropriate. It's just not properly funded. And again, then we've got these layers. And as Geoff was saying, we've heard in previous hearings people saying, I don't get what VisitBritain or Visit England do. They don't see the benefit. You know, of course, Visit England is primarily domestic promotion, VisitBritain International and then this plethora, I think 100 still dmos around the country.
I've faced it in my area. I've got Visit Worcestershire on the border, visit Gloucestershire, visit Warwickshire and then experience Oxford.
I've faced it in my area. I've got Visit Worcestershire on the border, visit Gloucestershire, visit Warwickshire and then experience Oxford.
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Speaker 11
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Speaker 11
All competing to try and get people to the Cotswolds. The purpose of the lvot was to get that cooperation, get them together, working together and package in a more appropriate way. But the question then it all goes back to funding. I think the Lvefs we got 4 million. We spent billions supporting the industry during the pandemic. Inbound tourism alone brings in something like. £30 billion of export revenue a year, and in return, the government gave £4 million back. And by the way, that was my government. And but it's not got much better. So so the frustration that I think you're all saying of how much the industry gives versus how much it gets in support is one that I think is really key.
The question I've got for you, therefore, is what is. realistic in terms of a long term funding model? What do you need from the government and how much do you need from the government? Or is it going to have to be, Laura, your model of saying a little bit of government or taxpayer money? But at the end of the day, it's got to primarily be commercial.
The question I've got for you, therefore, is what is. realistic in terms of a long term funding model? What do you need from the government and how much do you need from the government? Or is it going to have to be, Laura, your model of saying a little bit of government or taxpayer money? But at the end of the day, it's got to primarily be commercial.
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Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
What's realistic here? Sorry, long lots in there. But I think you start with the small. So in Somerset and Exmoor we have drawn up a sort of menu of what we would fund if funding appeared. And it's a tiny amount. I mean, we have sort of choices of 50 grand here and there, so if it pops up, we'll be ready to act. And that only adds up to. £200,000 a year. And that would keep us going. We're about. 1.3 billion that we put back into the economy in Somerset next door, which is a huge amount.
And if with just. 5% raise in, that would be 64 million. And all we need is a couple of hundred thousand pounds to keep us going. So I can only speak for .
And if with just. 5% raise in, that would be 64 million. And all we need is a couple of hundred thousand pounds to keep us going. So I can only speak for .
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Speaker 10
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Speaker 10
Got their very clear ask of how they would use money effectively ready to go? Absolutely. They're so engaged with their industries, they know exactly what there is to do. You know, I will give a shout out to Visit England. They've recently launched a Connected. Destinations fund, which is to get vets working together across boundaries. And I talked earlier around consumers and international visitors, not necessarily recognising our our authority boundaries. You know, that's that's very, very good in terms of the funding though, Nigel. I mean, again, I've been around for a long while. When I first joined VisitBritain in.
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Speaker 10
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Speaker 10
The funding settlement from central government was about. £35 million a year. Here we are, 26 years later, it's £18 million. I think if you were to take that. £35 million in 2000, it probably equates to somewhere near. £200 million at the moment. And currently they get £18 million. So it is not a problem of structures, it's not a problem of ambitions or delivery. VisitBritain delivers about 20 to.
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Speaker 11
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Speaker 11
Product side as well. Otherwise you don't have anything to market later on. Yeah, it's. 15 to 1 ROI you said there, right. You don't get that every day, do you? Yeah. So look, the final comment I've got for you then is, is how if you look at the successful dmos and indeed, unfortunately, those that have failed even visit Cornwall went under about about a year ago.
How can you.
How can you.
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Speaker 11
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Speaker 11
Encourage, cajole commercial partners to come in? Because we all know both central government and local government funding is really tight and it has to be going, doesn't it? This mix and dmos have different models. Some are almost entirely public, some are almost entirely commercial. What what needs to be done? What's the magic .
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Speaker 8
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Speaker 8
Of which around. 84% is grant. So the private sector is a significant part. But let's be clear, it is still. majority grant funded. Now that's across everything we do of that. We would spend as core around 3 million on the experience economy a year plus. This year we have an additional 5 million for a marketing campaign that is nearly all. mayoral grant funding.
It's not national funding.
It's not national funding.
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Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
Spend is spent within the M25. Well, the they're going to come to London first. You know, we're not we're not under any illusions that people are going to fly from China directly to, you know, Somerset. So that's all well and good. And I think the job we have is then to draw them out of London as well, so that they extend their stay. And we all benefit from that, that the sums are astronomical. I will just point to we've had a lot of conversations about funding being. distributed via mayoral authorities. Somerset, Exmoor nowhere near not a sniff of it.
So. So we do feel there's a growing disparity between the .
So. So we do feel there's a growing disparity between the .
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Speaker 10
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Speaker 10
And who don't, and we are losing out. Any comments to us? Yeah. No, I mean, you mentioned what incentive is there for the for the private sector to be investing in this? My tour operators have had. 140 of them currently spend about. £30 million per year marketing the UK as a destination because it's in their interest to sell the destination. Yes, of course they would.
They would want government to be funding those demand driving activities which they will benefit from, but they need to be able to engage with the local product. They need that.
They would want government to be funding those demand driving activities which they will benefit from, but they need to be able to engage with the local product. They need that.
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Speaker 10
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Speaker 10
Trade ready product. It's in their interest to do it. You know, they want to sell outside London, partly because, you know, the costs of London, partly because of the authentic experiences that you can get across the whole of the United Kingdom as well. They need those new products to keep visitors returning all the time to keep their overseas partners interested as well. So they already do invest.
They just need a little bit of help.
They just need a little bit of help.
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Rupa Huq
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Rupa Huq
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Speaker 10
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Speaker 10
Of visitors. International visitation into the United Kingdom goes outside, goes outside. London tour operators again, I'm going to talk about them. They they deliver about. 44% of their business outside London. So they're a key mechanism to getting people outside London. I think if you're looking and you're serious about getting business outside London, you need three things. You need the ability for people to be able to get there. You need the right product to get there, and you need the right marketing to make people aware of that access and indeed, what the products and experiences are.
I think events have a key role to play here. We all saw the Taylor Swift effect and the Oasis effect in terms of driving business and driving business again outside London. But again, you know, there's probably some role for central government to be looking at why we constantly hold, for example, the FA Cup, FA Cup in London. You know, there's plenty of other places to have it while we have the euro's. Why we have the finals in London. There's huge opportunities and some funding ought to go into that. What that mechanism is, I think, is probably a bit more difficult to say.
I don't think there's a clear route where you should say you should avoid London. Again, I don't think that's the case. First time visitors are going to come to London. We're an island. The growth markets only have access routes into London, so the opportunity is to grow London and then encourage those visitors, particularly second time, third time visitors to travel outside London as well. So rather than having a formula per se, I think it's more .
I think events have a key role to play here. We all saw the Taylor Swift effect and the Oasis effect in terms of driving business and driving business again outside London. But again, you know, there's probably some role for central government to be looking at why we constantly hold, for example, the FA Cup, FA Cup in London. You know, there's plenty of other places to have it while we have the euro's. Why we have the finals in London. There's huge opportunities and some funding ought to go into that. What that mechanism is, I think, is probably a bit more difficult to say.
I don't think there's a clear route where you should say you should avoid London. Again, I don't think that's the case. First time visitors are going to come to London. We're an island. The growth markets only have access routes into London, so the opportunity is to grow London and then encourage those visitors, particularly second time, third time visitors to travel outside London as well. So rather than having a formula per se, I think it's more .
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Speaker 10
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Speaker 10
Stations, they say you can take a train from here to. Yes. Cambridge. You know, I think I think the challenge is again, and, you know, whether that's, you know, with the rail system, you know, most countries in the world, you turn up to the turn up to the central station and you take a trip down to, to Orleans, for example, or you might take it down to the Loire Valley wherever you want to go, but you're probably not finding that you're going to have to pay. £250 on the day to do it. So the ability to.
distribute rail fares, access to rail fares before people get here as well, and making people aware of that system. There are products such as the Britrail Pass, but most visitors in most international. destinations don't expect to be paying. 250 to £250 for a day trip on on the day itself, there's other elements as well. We don't make it easy for. people with the multiplicity of ticketing that we have, the lack of translation facilities on the ticketing machines or the kiosks, and the ability to be able to speak those languages as well. So getting getting people out is absolutely important.
And again, making sure that people are .
distribute rail fares, access to rail fares before people get here as well, and making people aware of that system. There are products such as the Britrail Pass, but most visitors in most international. destinations don't expect to be paying. 250 to £250 for a day trip on on the day itself, there's other elements as well. We don't make it easy for. people with the multiplicity of ticketing that we have, the lack of translation facilities on the ticketing machines or the kiosks, and the ability to be able to speak those languages as well. So getting getting people out is absolutely important.
And again, making sure that people are .
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Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
What will happen and raised by them? What will happen to areas like ours? And you know, we just don't want to miss out on that. We are already missing out on funding because of that. So it seems to me that we have created this local visitor economy partnership system without any funding. And we're talking about maybe creating a new seam of funding without anywhere to distribute it. There's a natural tie up there. And going back to the the distribution of people from London, we or out of big cities, not just London, we find within Somerset next morning we've got about.
14% of of international visitors. That's all it is. So there is a growth opportunity there. They spend about. 24% of the spend. So we're very keen to attract more of them. We were lucky enough to show the China National Tourist Office around Wales the other week, and they were absolutely blown away. The group that came and said if only we could tell everyone about it. So it's .
14% of of international visitors. That's all it is. So there is a growth opportunity there. They spend about. 24% of the spend. So we're very keen to attract more of them. We were lucky enough to show the China National Tourist Office around Wales the other week, and they were absolutely blown away. The group that came and said if only we could tell everyone about it. So it's .
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Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
Harder as a. non-male destination. Is there a two tier thing going on? Absolutely, yeah. From what we see, we've got wonderful neighbours in Visit West in Bristol and they are they are well funded and they are able to deliver great. activities and marketing in their region. They are kind enough often to pass visitors to us to extend their stay or or in fam trips and things. But yeah,
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Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
You sort that problem? I use the City of Wells, the smallest city in England, as an example. We get calls sometimes from group travel leaders who want to stay in the city and there aren't enough bed rooms for them, so we then have to push them towards Bath and Bristol, which though only 20 miles away, is a whole other other world. So we we do get our majority of money from visitors, and we will lose out again if we haven't got the infrastructure to be able to to house them, which is why we want the visitor economy really to be seen as part of economic growth, the.
infrastructure and and to get .
infrastructure and and to get .
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Speaker 8
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Speaker 8
If you look at the London borough of Brent, which hosts Wembley Stadium, it has huge numbers of. visitors which come with. significant costs, but actually relatively few of them stay overnight in the borough. So if you were to do a levy that was ring fenced at a borough level, they would be left with a lot of costs but wouldn't necessarily get. proportionate support for that. So there are these imbalances between where people .
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Speaker 10
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Speaker 10
Their time and where they where they sleep. No, I was only just going to say, don't just think about the levy. I mean, again, we've heard earlier on today about the. 20% VAT, whereas it might be. 9% in France. Of course, you're also paying VAT on all of your food and beverage, for example. So these taxes are happening. And again, you know, whether whether that is being devolved down to the local.
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Speaker 10
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Speaker 10
Share of this? Yes or no? It can be, if you like. Well, in order to be able to. And again, we've talked about the benefits of spreading that that that economic benefit out of London, but out of zone one or zone two as well as it is absolutely important. And I think, you know, we need these destinations to be thriving. destinations to be buoyant. destinations in order to be able to attract the visitors as well. So there must be some mechanic whereby those who are not who are, who are perhaps not funded by a levy, are still having those base levels of support.
Again, you know, if you look at somewhere like Brent, for example, they don't necessarily have the hotel stock, but actually it's quite a good place to stay in order to get people into central London whilst you're not paying central London fees as well. So again, those opportunities, maybe there's other opportunities for seeing how .
Again, you know, if you look at somewhere like Brent, for example, they don't necessarily have the hotel stock, but actually it's quite a good place to stay in order to get people into central London whilst you're not paying central London fees as well. So again, those opportunities, maybe there's other opportunities for seeing how .
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Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
What levels of support those boroughs can receive as well. Yeah, I think looking at it as a holistic view for Somerset and Exmoor, of course, there are places without hotels and bed nights. But then if we look at Exmoor, for example, where 60% of jobs are dependent on the on the visitor economy, we need them to have some of that benefit, even though they might not have loads of hotels right there. So it must be spread around, you know, a certain area. So if it were if the Leps were involved with this, we'd be able to look at it as a whole and distribute where .
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Speaker 8
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Speaker 8
According according to the needs of the areas, a big part of our experience economy programme is working with local councils on their growth ambitions for this sector and how we can support them. So we are speaking with local authorities in London week in, week out about how they want to grow their. destinations locally and we have really exciting growth opportunities in lots of outer boroughs in London to create. genuinely exciting world class destinations. Our role is to is not to dictate what those growth ambitions should be, but to back them, for example, by supporting them to get.
investors to come into the borough to build, whether it's hotels, to bring in new attractions, to bring in events to the borough. And for us, that's a really important part of that overall strategy for London, because we know that what visitors want is authentic local experiences. Yes, of course they want to come into the city centre and see see things like this, but they also want to go to Southall and experience different, different cultures, different cuisines.
investors to come into the borough to build, whether it's hotels, to bring in new attractions, to bring in events to the borough. And for us, that's a really important part of that overall strategy for London, because we know that what visitors want is authentic local experiences. Yes, of course they want to come into the city centre and see see things like this, but they also want to go to Southall and experience different, different cultures, different cuisines.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Why people come to the city. Thank you. Rupa. Jill. Thank you. And my substantive questions been covered about as far as reaching outside London, and I'm really grateful for your answers. So I'm going to go straight into my follow up question, which was about how we enable more of that regional tourism to take place along the lines of making it internationally bookable. So it's quite easy to see, right? I can go and book somewhere to stay and things to do in London. How do we spread that out across England and the rest of the UK and make that commercially viable to do?
And just as a follow up to the follow up, is there a better use we can make of social media in AI here? I know that a lot of people I know that's their first port of call for when they're .
And just as a follow up to the follow up, is there a better use we can make of social media in AI here? I know that a lot of people I know that's their first port of call for when they're .
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Speaker 8
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Speaker 8
And we've seen in the last. 12 to 18 months a really. dramatic shift in the discovery and booking behaviour of consumers. And to be honest, the whole industry globally is running, running to catch up with that. So, so yes, absolutely. We are really keen to work in partnership with other areas on that ability of product. We have in the past been funded by VisitBritain to do some work, for example, with Manchester, where we've been able to do partner with airlines to do flights which come into one destination and then out of the other so that people can do those multi-stop trips.
We've also even done it with Paris, where we did a partnership with Eurostar, so that visitors from the US could come into one city and out of another. So but that book ability or absolutely right is key. And I would echo everything John said about the cost and. complexity .
We've also even done it with Paris, where we did a partnership with Eurostar, so that visitors from the US could come into one city and out of another. So but that book ability or absolutely right is key. And I would echo everything John said about the cost and. complexity .
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Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
Major barrier to dispersal. Yeah. Thank you. In our region, it's about education. For the businesses. It's about tying them up into travel trade ready product, which we we don't have. We're not strong at. It's a new thing for a lot of people. They don't even know what I'm talking about when I approach them and, and start saying it. And back to where I was earlier about going to speak to travel trade buyers in .
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Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
There was only a few businesses we could represent at that point. And when they followed up with asking about packages for people with disabilities, etc., it's a real effort for us to then try and find something which will meet their needs. So we've been very grateful to to the vet programme and to VisitBritain for helping us get there. But .
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Speaker 10
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Speaker 10
There's a lot of work to do and if we're not funded, we can't do it. Thank you. Yeah, absolutely. I think one of the big challenges is a lot of people assume, certainly that international visitors behave like British people do. They don't. If you were to say, for example, we're pretty happy as Brits travelling internationally to book a Eurostar and then a Paris hotel. Fine. If you wanted a two week holiday in in, say, for example, China, you would be using an operator. And that's how most of the world sees a trip to the UK.
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Speaker 10
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Speaker 10
We're not seen as very friendly people. We drive on the wrong side of the road. We have our own currency. It's it's quite we're not seen as very welcoming. It's a big deal. It's a big investment as well. I mean, we are a very premium. destination for people as well. International people use OTAs, online travel agents or they will use more traditional tour operators.
So making sure that businesses know how to work with these people because again, if. 95% of all Chinese people are using an intermediary to travel to the United.
So making sure that businesses know how to work with these people because again, if. 95% of all Chinese people are using an intermediary to travel to the United.
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Speaker 10
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Speaker 10
The. capability and the desire to work with the travel trade that is then going to get them sold internationally. You talked very briefly there around AI. And again, I think what we're seeing is that is massively changing the way that people discover. destinations and people plan for destinations. It's not the way that people are booking destinations. Nobody is handing over. £1,500 to. ChatGPT in order to take their holiday to the UK. That's just not how it works at the moment. Maybe at some point in the future that is going to be the case, but what we've got to do is we've got to make sure that insofar as we can, we have a tourist board, a national tourist board, visit Wales, a visit Britain that is making people aware of these destinations.
But then we need to give people the .
But then we need to give people the .
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Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
Yet I welcome. 500,000 people across the drawbridge of the Bishop's Palace every year. So, you know, they've got to get to us somehow. And if we're trying to meet net zero targets, you know, we're we're making people drive. The bus system isn't good enough. They're being cut. Our local MP, Tessa Monk, does great work for trying to get bus routes put back in. The trains are expensive and the nearest train station is Castle Cary. That's where everyone goes to for the Glastonbury Festival, obviously, which is a few minutes away. We really struggle and then passing them around.
I know my colleagues in Exmoor would say it's not the last mile challenge, it's the last 25 mile challenge to get people there, and we .
I know my colleagues in Exmoor would say it's not the last mile challenge, it's the last 25 mile challenge to get people there, and we .
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Speaker 10
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Speaker 10
And again, we heard in the earlier session around overnight visitor levies. I think overnight Vista levies work best when the visitors can see what they're being taxed on and where that investment goes. And that might be. transportation and rail as well. I am going to say, in terms of investment as well, that there is a real challenge for private sector businesses at the moment, particularly accommodation, but also attractions.
Their operating costs have gone up massively over the past two years. We saw with the increases in national minimum wage and the national Insurance.
Their operating costs have gone up massively over the past two years. We saw with the increases in national minimum wage and the national Insurance.
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Speaker 10
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Speaker 10
What we're finding is we're finding that people are reducing their length of stay here, so they're not staying quite as long because they have a fixed budget. And more and more of that is being taxed out at the various levels that we have as well. And it is if that price, if we are not price competitive, then you better be damn sure that we're offering the right product and good enough world class product. And of course, with these high business costs, that's deterring businesses from investing, investing in their staff, investing in refurbs, investing in growing their.
businesses as well.
businesses as well.
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Speaker 8
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Speaker 8
And Laura, on infrastructure investment, the perspective from London, perhaps critical, we've seen the. transformational impact of the Elizabeth line on our tourism industry. That has. enabled hundreds of millions of pounds of investment in the Royal Docks, for example, in the extension of Excel, the convention centre, which then has brought significant increased spend. The other key area for us would be affordable housing, because we need people to be able to work and live in London, to support the sector and to work in the sector and develop careers in it. Looking beyond more sort of traditional. infrastructure towards the infrastructure that enables the visitor economy, we are seeing really significant international investor interest in coming into London to build.
significant new visitor.
significant new visitor.
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Speaker 8
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Speaker 8
As well as hotels. One of the benefits of being an lvet that sits within a growth agency is that we are the inward investment agency for London, so we have teams that deal with large scale capital. investors across all asset classes, and so we're able to work directly with those. investors and help them to land those really large scale investments in visitor infrastructure. So I'd say for London, it's it's the transport and the housing and all of the, the, the multisector .
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Speaker 8
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Speaker 8
Transport from Heathrow that that made a greater impact? I couldn't give you any numbers on it, but but both have been game changers, and I was recently a couple of weeks ago at Imex, which is the one of the biggest trade shows globally for the meetings and conventions industry, and speaking to people that organise very large scale events and are choosing between global cities. And I heard time and time again that that ability to get their delegates into Heathrow and then weather into the city centre or .
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Speaker 13
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Speaker 13
To excel, has been a game changer for London's attractiveness. That's helpful. And my next question was going to ask around the extent to which transport and digital connectivity are constraining tourism growth in urban and rural destinations. We kind of touched on transport a bit already, so if there's anything you want to add there, please do. But perhaps on .
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Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
Digital connectivity, is there anything in particular? Merryn. Yeah, I feel I should answer this one because we we really struggle in our area. You know, I've been all around the world be absolutely fine using my phone centre of Somerset. You haven't got we don't have 5G in half of Somerset. So you know even that basic level operating a large scale tourist attraction. People want to come in, they want to use their phones, they want to be able to, I don't know, live stream as they're walking around. They can't do it, certainly not in the city of Wells at the moment.
And that's a real problem. I think it's going to be more of a problem as people want to their booking much closer to the dates of experience. They wait and see what the weather's like before they book for an attraction. And if they can't do that quickly and .
And that's a real problem. I think it's going to be more of a problem as people want to their booking much closer to the dates of experience. They wait and see what the weather's like before they book for an attraction. And if they can't do that quickly and .
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Speaker 10
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Speaker 10
Because of the connectivity, we're really in trouble. Yeah, I don't have much to add. I mean, other than for absolutely for the visitor in terms of their digital needs as well. But businesses and their digital. connectivity as well. You know, we've talked about the preponderance of the use of intermediaries, be that OTAs or be that tour operators. Well, they all use systems.
So if you've not got digital broadband, if you've not .
So if you've not got digital broadband, if you've not .
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Speaker 10
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Speaker 10
Joss. So I think, you know, government intervention takes many forms. And again, I'll reference back to, you know, we had the Discover England Fund that was around product development, around packaging up. experiences within England and then being able to distribute them internationally. That came to an end because of the pandemic, regrettably. And now this new fund, this Connected. Destinations fund, in order to be able to get people to work across boundaries and to work together for. considered an. appropriate customer. experiences across those boundaries. That's an excellent idea. But the funding is, is not massive. You know, I mean, the funding is probably £1 million a year, which sounds like a lot of money.
And of course, it is a lot of money. But within the grand scheme of things, in terms of the in terms of the 30 odd billion that inbound tourists will bring, it's not much money. So I think there are. opportunities for. supporting and. intervening when when it can build towards that successful consumer proposition. Again, you know, here we are. We've got the apps across the United Kingdom.
You know, if 20 only. 22% of them are saying that they're going to survive for the next five years, the industry needs those apps to be sustainable.
And of course, it is a lot of money. But within the grand scheme of things, in terms of the in terms of the 30 odd billion that inbound tourists will bring, it's not much money. So I think there are. opportunities for. supporting and. intervening when when it can build towards that successful consumer proposition. Again, you know, here we are. We've got the apps across the United Kingdom.
You know, if 20 only. 22% of them are saying that they're going to survive for the next five years, the industry needs those apps to be sustainable.
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Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
And that's where public intervention can make a serious difference. Yeah, I think can I add to that that I think the connected destination funds is. specifically for partnerships between apps and strategic authorities, or has a strong leaning towards that. So once again, there's a, there's a gap for maybe some of the destinations that need it the most. And in terms of other. Well, yeah, I think I think I'll leave it there. I think you've said well, because the funding that we don't have, I think I would like to say that the proposed levy shouldn't be a substitute for longer term government funding into tourism.
I know, I know it could be an answer, but I think there should be something .
I know, I know it could be an answer, but I think there should be something .
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Speaker 8
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Speaker 8
And that will then. inform where we need to be. Investing as a city and different destinations would have different needs. For some of them, it might be that the the barrier is last mile transport infrastructure. For others, it might be that the public realm isn't good enough. For others, it might be that they're missing an anchor attraction or some surrounding fab. For others, it might be that the destination is fantastic, but nobody knows about it and they really need a marketing push. So I think we need to be tailored and work work through with local areas.
What are the different interventions that will actually support them from the starting point that they're .
What are the different interventions that will actually support them from the starting point that they're .
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Speaker 10
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Speaker 10
Accountable for delivering the government's ambitions for tourism? Well, you know, I think tourism is everyone's business for a start. But I think more within that. I think one of the challenges that we've got is that not all of the. levers required for a successful visitor economy sit within the Department for culture, Media and Sport. You know, we've heard again around aviation Department for transport, we've got the Treasury around the taxation system, the Home Office around the visas and the Defra, around some of the rural.
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Speaker 10
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Speaker 10
But we need to see that accountability that sits across government as well within that growth. strategy whenever it arrives as well. I mean, without some of those delivery mechanisms, without the targets, without the proper. funding strategy, is purely a wish list. So we really need to see within that funding commitments over a serious amount of time, multi-year resources. We need the timetable. We need the .
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Speaker 10
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Speaker 10
Other key priorities identified? I mean, in terms of the Tourism Alliance, we would we would like to see various elements within it, but as I say, it needs to be that. cross-government approach to it. We need to try and improve where we can, any of the. understanding across officials and ministers in terms of the importance of the visitor economy to.
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Speaker 10
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Speaker 10
To employment, to jobs as well. So there's a whole raft of activities that are within the submission that we've made. But a lot of it is, as I say, around this kind of a multiyear funding, measurable targets and named delivery bodies that are really going to help help our sector achieve its ambitions. We have lofty ambitions, and we need to make sure that those ambitions and the.
opportunity is matched by the investment from government as well. We have a 50 million target that is achievable. We need to make sure that those.
opportunity is matched by the investment from government as well. We have a 50 million target that is achievable. We need to make sure that those.
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Speaker 8
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Speaker 8
Identified as a priority sector in the modern industrial strategy . At a London level, it is one of our five priority sectors in the London Growth Plan in London. We've chosen to define it as the experience economy rather than tourism, the distinction being that the experience economy. includes the spend and the the the the. Of the 9 million Londoners who are for us are a very important audience.
It also. recognises that the value of the experience economy isn't just in the economic benefit of the transaction itself, but in the.
It also. recognises that the value of the experience economy isn't just in the economic benefit of the transaction itself, but in the.
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Speaker 8
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Speaker 8
And that the experience economy is what makes London a. destination that global talent wants to be in and that global investors want to be in, so that the sector has a value beyond its its direct GDP. And that's why we've defined it as the experience economy. And in London it has got. It is in our industrial strategy. It is one of the five priority sectors. And that has made a really significant.
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Speaker 8
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Speaker 8
I think, to the commitment of the strategic authority to continue to to invest in it, to our ability to convene industry and stakeholders around it. But as we've heard, this sector will always be a team sport. Nobody will ever hold all of the levers. And besides all the ones that you've mentioned at national level, even within London, you know, we might be the LVP, but we are so reliant on local councils, on transport for London, on the police and of course, on industry, who are the ones that actually deliver the products every day.
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Caroline Dinenage
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Caroline Dinenage
Think we have to think about this as a team sport. Thank you. Thank you, Jeff. And last but not least, Alison. Thank you chair. Just coming on the off the back of the the National Visitor economy strategy, tourism and growth are so closely aligned. And it seems to me that with coastal destinations, I should say I'm the chair of the Appg for coastal communities. Some of our towns on the coast are the most attractive to visitors, but the hardest to get to. Would you agree that the the transport corridor issue, and it's been touched on, is is so important when governments are drawing up the strategy.
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Speaker 10
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Speaker 10
Perhaps I could come to you first, Joss. Yeah, absolutely. You know, I mean, the you know, we need to react to the modern day realities. A lot of the infrastructure developments that you see around rail in terms of engineering works, they take place during the school holidays at exactly the time that the visitors are likely to to be travelling. I think I saw Network Rail saying that the busiest day on the English railway system is actually Friday, and that is because of commuters. Yes, although you may see a decrease of commuters on the Friday. But it's also those leisure visitors travelling as well.
The busiest day on the Scottish transport system is actually a Saturday these days as well. So why on earth are we having engineering works on the days when visitors want to move? Mostly. And again in some areas it's going to be last mile. In some areas it's going to be last 25. And how can. technology help assist with that, either in terms of managing the existing infrastructure or looking to the future in terms of how that technology might help some of that. transportation issues? But it absolutely has to be key. As I say, unless you have, you know, all tourism relies are relies on three things, which is means money and motivation.
Do people want to go there? Have they got the money to do it? And can they actually access the destination as well? So that access to a destination is. absolutely key. You have most international visitors when travelling on a city break, do not want to, do not want to travel more than two hours from their point of entry into the country for a for a kind of a short break. And again, something in terms of kind of realising that regional ambition and that regional economy is about making sure that we are able to encourage more direct routes into some of the regional airports as well, because .
The busiest day on the Scottish transport system is actually a Saturday these days as well. So why on earth are we having engineering works on the days when visitors want to move? Mostly. And again in some areas it's going to be last mile. In some areas it's going to be last 25. And how can. technology help assist with that, either in terms of managing the existing infrastructure or looking to the future in terms of how that technology might help some of that. transportation issues? But it absolutely has to be key. As I say, unless you have, you know, all tourism relies are relies on three things, which is means money and motivation.
Do people want to go there? Have they got the money to do it? And can they actually access the destination as well? So that access to a destination is. absolutely key. You have most international visitors when travelling on a city break, do not want to, do not want to travel more than two hours from their point of entry into the country for a for a kind of a short break. And again, something in terms of kind of realising that regional ambition and that regional economy is about making sure that we are able to encourage more direct routes into some of the regional airports as well, because .
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Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
And they are mostly popular with domestic visitors. A lot of people from the Midlands choose to visit that area, and they can. They can just about make it on the train a certain distance and then it all sort of falls to pieces. So one of the most beautiful bus routes from Porlock through to Lynton and Lynmouth is one, I believe, my colleague from Visit Exmoor sitting behind me. I believe they have to fight for it in tourist season every year to to run at decent times. It is an absolutely stunning bus journey and and yet it keeps getting threat of being cut.
And how are we to to get people to to Minehead or .
And how are we to to get people to to Minehead or .
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Speaker 10
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Speaker 10
You don't need to hear from me on coastal tourism. Could sorry. Excuse me, could I, could I just add on that because obviously we've talked a lot around the overnight visitor levy I mentioned it tends to work best when the visitors can see what they've actually invested in as well. And there are examples across Europe. So say for example, in Interlaken, when you arrive in Interlaken and you go to your hotel, you'll be given a little booklet. And of course, it could just as easily be a digital booklet nowadays. But what that allows you to do is that allows you free travel with your.
bicycle on the local bus services as well. Now that free travel with your bicycle on local bus services is also available to local residents, and it's supported by the overnight visitor levy. So you can see actually how that might help in terms of driving some of that regional spread in a more sustainable fashion to get people out and about, and to some .
bicycle on the local bus services as well. Now that free travel with your bicycle on local bus services is also available to local residents, and it's supported by the overnight visitor levy. So you can see actually how that might help in terms of driving some of that regional spread in a more sustainable fashion to get people out and about, and to some .
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