Department for Science, Innovation and Technology: Abolition
(1 day, 20 hours ago)
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Lord Empey
To ask His Majesty’s Government what impact the abolition of the Department for Science, Innovation and Technology will have on overall civil service headcount.
The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office, and Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Baroness Twycross) (Lab)
Before answering the noble Lord’s Question, I refer Members to my ministerial declaration of interests. My husband works for the Government Digital Service.
The redistribution of the function of the Department for Science, Innovation and Technology is independent of decisions on overall Civil Service headcount, as is the case with all machinery of government changes. Artificial intelligence, science and technology are major priorities that cut across the whole of government and are vital for the country’s future economic prosperity. DSIT’s functions have been accordingly redistributed so that policy relating to science and technology is better aligned across government.
Lord Empey (UUP)
My Lords, approximately in excess of 4,000 civil servants were employed in that department. I wonder whether this has led to the abolition of any posts, or are people simply being redistributed? Can the Minister perhaps tell us what impact there will be in the Civil Service on total numbers, which rose dramatically after Covid? Can the Minister tell us whether the number in the Civil Service is reducing? If she does not have figures, perhaps she could write to me and place a letter in the Library.
Baroness Twycross (Lab)
As is the case with all machinery of government changes, the redistribution of the functions of the Department for Science, Innovation and Technology is independent of decisions on overall Civil Service headcount. These changes are about ensuring that we have the right structures in place to drive the Government’s priorities, in light of the significant difference in terms of how important digital is to the world. It is not about reducing headcount.
However, we have committed to future central government becoming smaller and more strategic. The Cabinet Secretary is leading a review into the organisation, performance and transformation of the permanent Civil Service, which will include, among other things, the size, shape and structure of the service. This review will report before summer 2027.
Lord Birt (CB)
I am sure that the Minister is aware that the closing down of DSIT has caused bemusement in the science and technology community. We have departments that focus rightly on health, education, culture, defence and other areas. At a time when both the challenge and opportunity in this sector are so enormous, why is there no focus on science and technology?
Baroness Twycross (Lab)
We absolutely have a focus on science and technology, which is why the Minister for AI has a seat at the Cabinet table. I agree with the noble Lord that the UK stands at a critical juncture, where unprecedented global changes mean that we need to secure our position in relation to these areas, but we cannot see science and technology as an isolated issue that is limited to one department; it is a fundamental priority that cuts across the whole of government and is crucial to the UK’s future economic prosperity.
Lord Ranger of Northwood (Con)
My Lords, the Government were doing reasonably well through DSIT in helping a booming industry in UK AI find its way through the plethora of initiatives and policies, including the AI growth zones, the AI opportunity action plan and sovereign AI. As well as for civil servants, the removal of DSIT has caused confusion in industry, and I declare my interest as a co-founder of the Business AI Alliance and an adviser to a number of AI businesses. All these businesses have said the same thing to me: where do they go now? Where are all these policy areas sitting? How can they navigate their way as they try to bring that key element of growth to the UK economy?
Baroness Twycross (Lab)
As I said in my initial response to the noble Lord, Lord Empey, we have a Minister for AI at the Cabinet table. We also have a new and renewed BIST, which has been created to signify the UK’s global leadership in innovation and maximise the growth potential that can be contributed to the UK economy by emerging strategic sectors. This is part of our reindustrialisation agenda. BIST is now responsible for emerging and frontier technologies, and I am confident that this will be part of its key work going forward.
Lord Pack (LD)
My Lords, we have in recent weeks had yet more evidence of AI agents going rogue, including hacking websites and even sending a fake tip about a real crime to the US police. Can I ask not about overall headcount, but specifically what the impact of these changes will be on the headcount for AI regulation? Is that headcount going to go up, go down, or stay the same?
Baroness Twycross (Lab)
The percentage of staff in digital and data roles is projected to increase. We are clear that when we are looking at overall responsibilities, functions and roles within the Civil Service, we need to make sure that we are ready for future opportunities, but also future threats, as the noble Lord made clear. I had the pleasure of going to talk to AISI last week and I was impressed by the calibre of civil servants there and the work they are doing to protect us and to build a rigorous scientific understanding of both the capabilities and the risks associated with AI.
Lord Kirkhope of Harrogate (Con)
My Lords, there is a problem. The Minister’s remarks seem perfectly reasonable, although rather difficult to understand, but can she indicate to the House precisely how many people, and what categories of people, will be working with the Minister, who now has a Cabinet position?
Baroness Twycross (Lab)
I am unclear about how I am going to come up with an exact figure for somebody who covers a cross-government function, albeit that he will have teams such as AISI working specifically with him. I cannot stress enough that this Government see AI as so crucial that we have a Cabinet-level Minister who has responsibility for drawing all these threads together and for making sure that we are well equipped for both the opportunities that are presented and the well-documented risks associated with AI.
Lord Moylan (Con)
My Lords, a large number of civil servants, paid as civil servants, are in fact working for trade unions. Have the Government considered prioritising replacing them with AI?
Lord Spellar (Lab)
My Lords, we are concentrating a lot on the impact of AI on outside industry. To what extent is the Civil Service looking at using AI in its own internal operations? In particular, what impact will it have on the increased headcount that we have post Covid?
Baroness Twycross (Lab)
We have a huge amount of work going on across government to make sure that we use AI to its potential, from the Department of Health and Social Care looking at how it will use it in a cutting-edge AI trial to transform cancer care—albeit that that is within the health service. We are confident that AI will improve public services and boost productivity, from identifying fraud and potential fraud to making sure that we have automated policy analysts and AI tutoring tools. We are rolling out AI tools that will save time and money to get the most effective Civil Service for the public.
Lord Scriven (LD)
My Lords, headcount is irrelevant. The real issue is the outcomes and outputs that the department delivers. In closing the department down, what will now be able to be done more efficiently, for those in industry and for the country?
Baroness Twycross (Lab)
I am going to repeat myself, with apologies to your Lordships’ House. Not just the UK but the whole world is at such a critical juncture in relation to the rapid increase and developments in AI science and technology. I understand on one level why people think “Well, we’ll put it all in one department and one box”, but putting it across government and making sure somebody is driving that progress across government is critical to making sure that this is embedded and part of everybody’s work across every department, rather than it sitting in DSIT.
Baroness Finn (Con)
My Lords, between 2010 and 2016, under the coalition and Conservative Governments, the Civil Service headcount fell by 21%. We simultaneously set up the award-winning Government Digital Service in 2011. Despite this Government’s repeated pledges to reduce headcount, the numbers have risen by 2% since they took office in 2024. Can the Minister say whether Ministers at any point approved that increase?
Baroness Twycross (Lab)
The noble Baroness would have to ask the previous Conservative Government, which saw an increase from 2016 of 140,000 civil servants. We can have a discussion about numbers, but while that might be true of the coalition Government, it definitely was not true of the Conservative Government that followed.