Lord Mandelson: Government Response to Humble Address
(1 day, 8 hours ago)
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Baroness Finn (Con)
My Lords, I thank the Leader of the House and Lord Privy Seal for the opportunity to respond to this Statement.
We are three weeks on from the Motion passed in the other place for this humble Address to be presented to His Majesty, and not a single document has yet been published. We often hear that Ministers are moving at pace, but this time Ministers are moving at an unacceptably slow pace. Transparency delayed is transparency denied. The Government must not drag their feet in complying with the clear instruction of Parliament. Can the Lord Privy Seal confirm that there will be no further slippage in the timetable for publication?
In the other place, the Chief Secretary to the Prime Minister accepted that compiling the material will take some time and spoke of publication “very shortly” in tranches. But “very shortly” is not a plan. Parliament’s instruction requires urgency as well as completeness, and we will continue to hold Ministers to account for delivering both.
The Chief Secretary also told the other place that the first tranche would be published in early March. Can the Lord Privy Seal clarify what the Government mean by early March? For example, should the House expect publication within the first week of March, and can she confirm the precise date on which the first tranche will be laid?
The humble Address expressly exempts papers that would be prejudicial to UK national security or international relations. These papers are instead to be referred to the Intelligence and Security Committee, the ISC. Can the Lord Privy Seal explain what test officials are applying when they decide that disclosure would be prejudicial in each case? Will she also confirm that material identified as engaging those exemptions is being passed to the ISC promptly as it is identified, rather than being held back and sent only once the wider collation exercise is complete, so that the committee can begin its work without delay?
It has also been noted that the ISC’s secretariat is provided by Cabinet Office officials. We unequivocally do not question the independence or integrity of the ISC, but given that the Cabinet Office is also leading the Government’s sifting and handling of material for publication, what steps are being taken to ensure that these parallel roles do not create even the perception of a conflict and that the ISC has the resources and independence it needs to do this job quickly and thoroughly?
I turn to the documents the Government say they are withholding following discussions with the Metropolitan Police. In the other place, the Speaker has been clear that the police cannot dictate to that House what may be required under a humble Address. Will the noble Baroness the Lord Privy Seal confirm that the Government accept the principle behind that statement—that the duty to comply rests with Ministers, and that any documents withheld because of the live investigation will be published as soon as it is possible to do so? Will she also consider setting a clear backstop for further updates to Parliament so that the process cannot drift indefinitely? More broadly, humble Addresses are understood to be binding resolutions of the House. Does she accept that a failure to comply with the humble Address without proper justification could be treated as a contempt of Parliament?
The official Opposition have called for clarity on what is to be published, what is being withheld, and why. Will the noble Baroness commit to publishing a comprehensive list of the categories of documents within scope, identifying which have been disclosed, which have been referred to the ISC and which are being temporarily withheld—for example, because of the police investigation —together with the reason in each case? If she cannot give a firm commitment today, will she undertake to write to clarify the Government’s position?
We have been patient and constructive, but the public interest in these papers is clear. They must be published in a timely way if lessons are to be learned and accountability secured.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)
My Lords, we all now recognise that it was a massive misjudgment to appoint Lord Mandelson to the post of ambassador in Washington. The Prime Minister has already apologised for that. He is not the first Prime Minister to have made such a serious error, and opposition parties should avoid pretending that they are entirely innocent of similar past mistakes. That will persuade the public only that all politicians are aggressively partisan and potentially corrupt.
However, there should be a much wider canvas for this investigation. We need to know not only about the involvement of Lord Mandelson in the Epstein network but how far others in the UK were involved and whether any of the trafficking of young women took place through Britain and British airports. The interaction between a sexual exploitation network and the provision of confidential government information to rich financiers is a potentially explosive mixture. It could deepen public mistrust in not only our political elite but the City of London and its links to New York banks. Then there are the rumours of Russian links with all this. It is vital to demonstrate as much transparency as possible, with a vigorous attempt to uncover what has really taken place.
We recognise the challenge that the vast mass of documents to be examined poses. We also recognise that there will be some areas where national security interests unavoidably prevent full publication—particularly the rumours of Russian links, if they turn out to have some foundation—but we ask the Government to publish and explain to the public as much as possible, in order to rebuild public trust.
I hope the Minister also recognises that the British Government are now in a position where they can and should set an international example of our adherence to democratic accountability and the rule of law. There have already been a number of comments in Washington on the contrast between American and British reactions to this developing scandal: no recent arrests in the United States, reluctant release of heavily redacted documents and an Administration doing their best to deny any involvement, contrasted with the Government and Head of State in London taking the limited British involvement seriously.
Democracy and the rule of law are under attack in the United States and elsewhere. We on these Benches therefore encourage our Government to demonstrate in everything they do in this developing scandal that accountability and the law matter enormously. There is likely to be a lot more still to come out from all these documents that will embarrass the US Government and America’s financial, high-tech and business elites, as well as their counterparts in the UK.
The previous Conservative Government resisted publication of the full extent of Russian penetration of British politics, primarily because its deepest penetration had been of the Conservative Party. We still do not know how far it extended or what lessons we all need to learn. I again encourage the Government to publish a much fuller version of the ISC’s Russia report to alert the public to the threats of foreign interference in British politics that we face, and as helpful background to the sad mixture of money, sleaze and sexual exploitation that Lord Mandelson, Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor and perhaps other leading British people were caught up in.
The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Smith of Basildon) (Lab)
My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness and the noble Lord for their questions; I will try to answer as many as possible. I do not recognise the noble Baroness’s suggestion about delay in dealing with this. There are a lot of documents to be produced. The Government have been very clear that there is no hesitation at all in complying fully and completely with the humble Address. I hope that reassures her.
There is no scheduled timetable but it is important that, with so many documents, we do not wait until we have every document but get them out in tranches. Some of those may be out of sequence, in a sense, but all government departments have been asked to be very clear that all documents must be kept, whatever form they are in, and that information and messages must be kept so they can be fully disclosed.
The noble Baroness asked for confirmation on what is being withheld. Only two areas are being withheld. Information will be sent to the ISC. The Government will make a judgment on whether that information has an impact on international security, international relations and national security. If the Government make that judgment, it will then be given to the ISC to assess. There is a clear process and an assessment of the Government’s judgment on that when it is sent to the ISC. The other issue—which I understand is one document, or maybe a suite of documents—is the questions that were asked of Peter Mandelson by No. 10. That is the information that is currently with the Metropolitan Police. There is obviously a delay in publishing that, but as soon as we are able to do so we will. I take into account the Lord Speaker’s comments that nothing should be allowed to prejudice justice.
The noble Baroness asked what “early March” means. I am tempted to say that early March means early March. I do not know quite how further to describe early March: does it mean 1 March or 2 March? It means early March. It will be published in early March and I expect we will see the information produced in the next couple of weeks or so.
The noble Baroness also raised the slightly curious point about the independence of the ISC, which the House of Commons raised as well. I hope I have not misunderstood—she is shaking her head at me, so perhaps I did—but the ISC has to be able to conduct its work without fear or favour and have the full confidence of the whole of Parliament in doing so. Although the staff are employed by the Cabinet Office, she will know from her experience of the Civil Service how very much they work for the ISC.
Having said that, I understand that there have been discussions about whether those staff should be employed directly by the ISC or whether it is more appropriate that there is a pool of people who work for the ISC and may return to other Civil Service jobs. The important thing is that they have the resources to do their job. I have absolute confidence in the Members of this House who are members of the ISC—the noble Lord, Lord West, the noble Baroness, Lady Brown, and the chair, the noble Lord, Lord Beamish, who is behind me, keeping an eye on me—to ensure they do their work fully, completely and properly. I am sure the noble Baroness, Lady Finn, will agree.
The noble Baroness commented that the Metropolitan Police cannot dictate to the House and asked whether the Government accept their duty that any documents held should be released afterwards. I have already answered that: they will be released where we are able to do so and where that does not jeopardise any possible further action the police may want to take.
The noble Lord, Lord Wallace, addressed how all of us can make mistakes. He referred to mistakes by past Governments and by this Government. Indeed, I heard his party leader on the radio this morning talking about mistakes that he had made. When mistakes are made, three things must happen. First, there must be an admission that a mistake has been made. Secondly, how it happened must be understood. Unless you understand how and why it happened, you cannot take the action that is needed to protect yourself and others from making similar mistakes in the future. Thirdly, an apology is required. I will never suggest that no Government ever made a mistake—it is human life—but to understand how and why, to put the wrong right and to apologise are important steps forward.
The noble Lord asked the Government to publish and explain as much as possible. Yes, transparency—particularly in an era of distrust of politicians, which we have been in for some time—democratic accountability, the rule of law, and being as open and transparent as possible are important. Who would have expected, when the Epstein papers, documents and emails were released, that this would reverberate around the world? It is uncomfortable for any Government to find themselves in a position where the information in those emails was completely unknown by them. The sense of betrayal, hurt, anger and upset in seeing those documents and that information is enormous. I assure the noble Lord on that.
The noble Lord says that there are rumours about Russian influence. It is very difficult to do anything about rumours. I worry about rumours. It is evidence that we must work on. Any evidence that can be made available should be made available. However, he will understand, in talking about the Russia report, that it is about finding the balance between transparency and international relations and security. I am grateful for the work that the ISC is doing on this, and generally, as I think the whole House must be, to ensure that it is confident that this balance is right and that it can work with the Government on this. However, the responsibility for national security ultimately lies with the Government.
The noble Lord says that there is further embarrassment to come. I am less worried about embarrassment than I am about not doing justice to the young women and girls who were abused by Jeffrey Epstein. There are times in life when we have to take a bit of embarrassment to ensure that justice is done.
Captain of the Honourable Corps of Gentlemen-at-Arms and Chief Whip (Lord Kennedy of Southwark) (Lab Co-op)
We now move on to up to 20 minutes of Back- Bench questions. It is Back-Bench questions, not speeches.
Lord Beamish (Lab)
My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Finn, raised ISC staff. Their job, and that of the committee, was made incredibly difficult by the previous Conservative Government cutting the budget and interfering with the appointments to the committee. The committee met the Prime Minister last year. This was the first time that the committee had met a Prime Minister in 10 years. Following that, the budget was increased. Negotiations are ongoing about moving the staff outside of the Cabinet Office. I assure your Lordships that those staff are dedicated, hard-working individuals who work very closely with the committee. I ask my noble friend: if the committee requires more resources, will those resources be given to deal with this task?
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
I am grateful to my noble friend for his point about the staff. I tried to do it justice but, as chair of the committee, he did it much better than I could. It is important that there is no question that the committee and the House have full confidence in the staff and the work that they do. Yesterday in the House of Commons, the Chief Secretary to the Prime Minister made it clear that there are ongoing discussions. It is important that the resources that the ISC needs are available. I understand that discussions on that are taking place.
Lord Harper (Con)
My Lords, the Leader of the House referred to things we did not know. The problem for the Prime Minister is that he confirmed in the House of Commons that he did know that Lord Mandelson had an ongoing relationship with Jeffrey Epstein after he had been convicted for child sex trafficking, and he still appointed him as ambassador to the United States of America. That is a bit of a problem.
Can I pick up on something that the Leader of the House said about decision-making? The humble Address said that all information in the terms of the Address would be published, except where it was prejudicial to national security or international relations. I understood that the process of pulling together all those documents was being overseen by the Cabinet Secretary, who I understand has delegated that to the Permanent Secretary in the Cabinet Office, and that it would be that official who made the decisions about what was prejudicial and what therefore went to the ISC. The Leader of the House has just said that that decision is going to be taken by the Government, by which we normally mean Ministers. Can she clarify whether the decision about which documents are prejudicial and will therefore go to the ISC will be taken by the Permanent Secretary in the Cabinet Office, who has been delegated that task by the Cabinet Secretary, or by Ministers?
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
The noble Lord raises two points, the first of which concerns what the Prime Minister did or did not know. I do not think anybody was aware of the extent of the activities of Jeffrey Epstein and the relationship between him and Peter Mandelson until these documents were released. The other point is the information that the Prime Minister and No. 10 have given to the Metropolitan Police. Questions were asked of Lord Mandelson and the answers that were forthcoming to the Prime Minister were not, as we now understand, the case. The Prime Minister feels that he was lied to by Peter Mandelson then. It is the extent of that relationship that is really important.
On the humble Address, I was talking about government in the widest sense. The Cabinet Secretary has delegated this to the Permanent Secretary at the Cabinet Office, who will be the person sifting the documents to ensure that the documents sent to the ISC are those that the Government have withheld for reasons of international security and international relations and our national security.
Baroness Ludford (LD)
My Lords, my noble friend Lord Wallace of Saltaire raised the suggestion we have seen in the press that Jeffrey Epstein’s trafficking victims could possibly have been brought into the UK through private airports. I remember 20 years ago this issue being raised in relation to the victims of extraordinary rendition, in which I am afraid the UK Government colluded. Has that loophole really not been closed? Have there been no immigration or security controls on who comes into this country in private jets?
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
I do not know whether the case is exactly as the noble Baroness describes it. What I do know is that all evidence is being looked at to see whether there is any evidence of such trafficking. That means going back through records over some time to see what is available. If there is any evidence of trafficking, of course the appropriate action should be taken as a matter of urgency.
Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)
My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend the Lord Privy Seal for the way in which she is approaching this discussion and the answers that she has given. Can she confirm the situation about the humble Address? Obviously, it was constructed by the leader of the Official Opposition with a view to perhaps causing maximum embarrassment, but that is the job of opposition, and we should not be surprised at that. I understand that the framing of it potentially covers all diplomatic cables, many of which would automatically be copied to the UK ambassador to the United States. Can my noble friend confirm that part of the task that the Permanent Secretary in the Cabinet Office has been given is to judge whether or not those can be released? Is there not an important principle that releasing diplomatic cables or material relating to diplomatic cables is prejudicial to the interests of this country? Even if that diplomatic cable said what a nice person whoever it was is and that they had a really good discussion, the fact of releasing some, but not all, cables raises the question about those which are redacted. Is that not in itself likely to be prejudicial to the national interest? This is an important process, which requires a great deal of diligence.
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
My noble friend is right. It is an important process. Our international relations with countries across the world where we have diplomats and where they have provided information in the UK’s national interests may at times be sensitive. The humble Address is quite clear that, where there are issues of national security or international relations, those documents and that information will be passed to the ISC for it to make a judgment. To come back to my noble friend’s point about whether it was intended to be embarrassing, the truth may be embarrassing at times but if it leads to justice and a better outcome then it is the right thing to do. The Government have no problems complying fully with the humble Address.
Lord Redwood (Con)
I welcome the Government’s decision to take this very seriously and to publish in tranches. Given that many days have now elapsed, will the Government publish a tranche tomorrow to show good faith, so that the proper process of scrutiny can begin?
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
I do not know whether the noble Lord heard my earlier answer. We will not be publishing documents tomorrow but as soon as possible. I imagine that it will be in the next couple of weeks.
Baroness Laing of Elderslie (Con)
My Lords, the House appreciates that the noble Baroness has had to answer a lot of questions in a short time, but she has not as yet answered the final question asked of her a few moments ago by the noble Baroness, Lady Finn, about whether the Government will commit to publishing a comprehensive list of the categories of documents within scope, identifying which have been disclosed, which have been referred to the ISC and which have been temporarily withheld—for example, because of a police investigation—together with the reason in each case. The more complicated this matter becomes, the more helpful it would be if the Government could give that information. If the noble Baroness cannot immediately answer that question, will she commit to answering it in writing to the noble Baroness and the Opposition as soon as possible?
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
I have no problem answering questions at the Dispatch Box—it is probably one of the highlights of my day.
I am slightly puzzled by the question, though I will take it back. It seems to me that, if it has already been said what the document is that is being withheld from the Metropolitan Police—that information was announced in the House of Commons yesterday and I have said it here today—and if we then publish a list of documents that are being sent to the ISC because the issues are significant to international relations or national security, does that not give more information that could undermine national security or international relations? There is an issue of transparency, but transparency does not extend to such issues. It has already been accepted that the documents will be sent to the ISC. I will look at this, but the noble Baroness should have faith that if the ISC is receiving those documents then it can look at them. If it is that she wants a list of confidential information that is being given to the ISC, I am not sure that that takes the House any further, or whether that might undermine the work of the ISC. I am not sure that it is a helpful suggestion.
Lord Pannick (CB)
My Lords, the House is grateful to the noble Baroness the Lord Privy Seal for the clarity of her answers. Will she confirm that, once the ISC has decided that a document should be disclosed, notwithstanding any concern that the Government may have had about its implications for national security or foreign relations, the Government will comply with the decision of the ISC?
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
I am grateful to the noble Lord. My understanding is that the exact details of how this will work in practice are still being discussed between the Government and the ISC. Those discussions will be concluded this week, but the Government have no interest in withholding information if it does not relate to international relations or national security. I hope that, if we get it right, the issue will not occur in the first place, but those discussions will take place between the Government and the ISC this week to conclude the terms of reference.
Lord Jackson of Peterborough (Con)
My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness the Lord Privy Seal for her answer. I make the point that the then Opposition moved and invoked an humble Address on a number of occasions during the Brexit negotiations, at very critical junctures. At that stage, it was not necessarily in the national interest to reveal all the information that the Her Majesty’s Government were using.
I just take the noble Baroness back to the report on due diligence. Surely it is for parliamentarians and the wider public to make a judgment not only on the veracity of the due diligence report presented by the Cabinet Office to the Prime Minister but on the Prime Minister’s judgment in what he did with that report. It seems odd, and perhaps the noble Baroness will explain why it was, that a charge of misconduct in a public office is inextricably linked with the release or otherwise of the due diligence report that was presented to the Cabinet Office. Finally, will she say what is an acceptable delay before that very important document on which we will judge the Prime Minister’s judgment is published?
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
First, I am not quite sure what the noble Lord’s comments on the humble Address were aimed at. He has heard no complaints whatever from me or from this Dispatch Box about complying fully and totally with the humble Address. I do not think I made any complaints about humble Addresses previously, as the noble Lord implied, so I am not quite sure what he was saying.
I can also tell him that no charges have yet been brought of misconduct in public office. The evidence being looked at has come to the fore, post due diligence and security vetting, from the Epstein files. Nobody in this House or outside it could have had any warning, or a crystal ball or anything, that could have indicated the extent of those messages and what they contained. So, if any charges are brought of misconduct in public office, it will come from those emails that were released. I will wait and let the police do their work on that, to see whether charges are brought against any of the individuals who have so far been arrested.