Baroness Keeley
To ask His Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the impact of introducing a fee for musical instrument certificates on touring orchestras and musicians, as proposed in the open consultation on reforming domestic implementation of the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Baroness Hayman of Ullock) (Lab)
My Lords, the Government have not yet fully assessed the impact of introducing a fee for musical instrument certificates for touring orchestras and musicians. We will do so based on the information submitted by stakeholders during the public consultation, which will close on 23 October. That consultation forms part of Defra’s wider work to ensure that our regulatory framework is both proportionate and effective, in line with the Corry review. We will continue to engage with DCMS, recognising the music sector’s importance.
Baroness Keeley (Lab)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for that Answer. It is very welcome that the Prime Minister made pledges to help our touring artists as part of improving the UK’s trade relationship with the EU, because since Brexit, UK musicians touring the EU have had many extra costs, including for visas, work permits and carnets. Can my noble friend assure me that her department will now look again at its proposal to start charging for applications for musical instrument certificates, which would add to those barriers for touring musicians? I also ask that it looks again at proposals to introduce civil sanctions, which would mean musicians travelling without a certificate, or even with a certificate not correctly stamped at the border, would become liable for a financial penalty.
Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)
As I said in my initial Answer to my noble friend, we are currently consulting on this range of proposals; it is part of the way we reform our CITES regulatory framework. The idea is that the reforms will support economic growth, reduce unnecessary regulatory burdens and ensure effective protection for endangered species. The options include a proposal to revise the fees for permits and certificates, including those for musical instruments. This is in line with other countries. As I said, we are consulting, and we will look at all the information submitted to that consultation before we reach any final decision.
The Earl of Clancarty (CB)
My Lords, this proposal for charging for musical instrument certificates clearly goes entirely against the promise the Government made in their election manifesto to help facilitate musicians touring the EU. Does this not illustrate the need for someone, preferably a Minister, who can oversee this promise, and the decisions made in relevant departments, to avoid such backwards steps, because for musicians, Brexit is such a cross-departmental concern?
Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)
The availability of the musical instrument certificates simplifies international travel for musicians with instruments. It is important to note that they are valid for three years. Currently, the musical instrument certificates are the only CITES permit or certificate available to applicants at no cost, so it is important that we consider through this consultation whether this is fair or proportionate as we move our current charging regime to full cost recovery.
I emphasise that no decisions as yet on fees have been made. The consultation is seeking feedback from stakeholders to ensure changes do not put disproportionate burdens on industry and businesses, including touring orchestras and musicians. The Government are supporting artists through measures such as the orchestra tax relief, the Arts Council England funding and the £30 million music growth package which supports talent development, music exports and grass-roots venues.
Baroness Grender (LD)
My Lords, does the Minister agree that the burden on touring musicians of the botched Brexit deal has been so very punitive? Does she share our concern about any danger that this consultation will add to that botched Brexit deal and increase fees for those touring musicians? Could she please elaborate for the House on discussions that have taken place between her department and the Department for Culture, Media and Sport to ensure that this vital export to the UK is fully supported?
Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)
We are continuing to talk with DCMS; it is an ongoing conversation. We are also continuing to constructively engage with the European Commission to tackle the challenges that face both creative and cultural professionals. To support touring artists, the Government are actively engaging with the EU on this specific issue. At the first ever summit between the UK and the EU, both sides recognised the value of travel and cultural and artistic exchanges, including the activities of touring artists, and we have committed to continue to support this.
Lord Brennan of Canton (Lab)
My Lords, I declare an interest as a member of the Musicians’ Union, led by the excellent general secretary Naomi Pohl, which has been campaigning against this proposal. In my view, it is the sort of proposal that in a joined-up government should never have seen the light of day. Musicians and orchestras are facing great difficulties as a result of Brexit and already have additional costs. There is no current charge; the Minister is right in saying that. The difference is that now, if the Government introduce a charge, it will place a massive additional burden on musicians who are already suffering greatly in terms of being able to tour as a result of Brexit. I understand why she has to say in legal terms that the consultation is going ahead, but when it is over, I urge her to drop this proposal.
Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)
As my noble friend rightly pointed out, this is an ongoing consultation. As I said in response to other questions, we will take all views into account. The consultation does not close for another few days, so if anyone has concerns and they have not taken part, I urge them to respond.
Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)
My Lords, the Independent Society of Musicians has called this proposal “disappointing” and “incomprehensible”. We have just heard about the dismay it has caused to the Musicians’ Union, and, as the noble Earl said, it flies in the face of the Government’s manifesto commitment to help touring artists. The Minister has been at pains to say that no decision has yet been taken, but the consultation document invites people to choose between two options: a cost of £61 for all permits and certificates, or a charge of £200 for all applications. Does that rather leading question suggest that the Government have made up their mind that there should be a cost of some form for people bringing instruments into this country?
Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)
The consultation is on CITES, which covers all sorts of areas and not just musical instruments. As I said, we are carrying out a consultation and will take the responses into account. It is important to show that we are supporting music. We support orchestras through the tax system and funding. At the Autumn Budget last year, the Government confirmed that, from April this year, orchestra tax relief on production costs was to be set at a generous rate of 45%. We also support orchestras through the Arts Council England investment programme; 23 orchestral music organisations are funded through its national portfolio investment programme for 2023 to 2026. We are keen to support the arts.
Baroness Bull (CB)
My Lords, the Minister cited the common understanding that emerged from the May summit earlier this year. Can she say—if not now then in writing—exactly what efforts have taken place since that meeting to support travel and cultural exchange?
Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)
I am very happy to write to the noble Baroness with that detail.
Viscount Stansgate (Lab)
My Lords, my noble friend the Minister said that the Government are still consulting, so I hope that my supplementary question can be part of that process. I am one of many Members in this House who are concerned about the future of youth orchestras. Can my noble friend say whether the current proposals imply that, in the future, youth orchestras would be subject to the charges involved? That would be an extremely serious additional burden to place on them when they are already facing difficulties in touring.
Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)
As I said, we are in consultation. A lot of assumptions are being made by many of the questioners. To reiterate, the consultation is an opportunity for the music sector to make its voice heard and to provide us with evidence about the kind of impacts being mentioned in this Question Time.
Baroness Keeley (Lab)
Perhaps I may add to the question that I raised earlier. The musical instrument certificate is a very small part of CITES, and for the burden it will put on musicians, it will not raise very much money. Could that be an additional part of the consideration?
Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)
I am sure that if, the noble Baroness would like that to be part of the consultation, it could be taken into account. However, others may well have mentioned it already.
Lord West of Spithead (Lab)
Does my noble friend the Minister agree that hedgehogs, rather like frigates, are an endangered species, and that there is a need to look at some positive action by the Government to help protect our hedgehogs in this country?
Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)
I am always impressed by the way in which my noble friend manages to get some sort of shipping into every question, no matter what the topic. Hedgehogs are endangered—we know that there is a problem there—but whether they are related to musical instruments is another question.
Baroness Winterton of Doncaster (Lab)
My Lords, I will return to the subject of touring orchestras and musical instruments. As the Minister said, the important point about the reset negotiations in May is that this might have been discussed. Looking to the future negotiations, particularly on the reset, the Minister mentioned the involvement of her department and DCMS, but can she assure me that the Cabinet Office will also be involved? That would enable the Cabinet Office, through Nick Thomas-Symonds, to look at this issue in the round, because a number of other issues come into account.
Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)
I can assure my noble friend that there is not much that the Cabinet Office does not get involved in.