Lord Dubs (Lab)
On behalf of my noble friend, and with her agreement, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in her name on the Order Paper.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede) (Lab)
My Lords, under the previous Government, the High Court found in Harrison a difference of treatment in weddings law towards humanists. However, it also found that the then Government had demonstrated that the difference in treatment was justified given the legitimate aim to address differences in treatment as part of wholesale reform. As a new Government, we need properly to consider these important issues and will set out our position in due course.
Lord Dubs (Lab)
My Lords, when the High Court ruled that the lack of legal recognition for humanist marriages was discriminatory, this was surely an argument for the last Government to do something, which they failed to do. Is it not now time for this Government to go through the process of having an impact assessment?
Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)
My Lords, we will assess marriage in the round, including humanist weddings, and we will announce when we do that in due course. I agree with the general point which my noble friend has made.
Lord Birt (CB)
My Lords, just under 20 years ago, Scotland legalised humanist marriage. Remarkably, data from the National Records of Scotland show that more Scots now choose a humanist wedding than those who marry in all other religions combined—that is, the Church of Scotland, the Roman Catholic Church and all other religions and faiths. On present trends, humanist weddings in Scotland will soon overtake civil ceremonies as Scotland’s first choice. How can we any longer deny the humanist option to those who want to wed in England?
Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)
I thank the noble Lord for that question. Scotland was able to accommodate humanist weddings within its existing legislative framework for weddings because it operates an officiant-based model, whereby regulation of weddings takes place via the officiant. In contrast, in England and Wales, we have a buildings-based scheme. It is in that difference that Scotland was able to make this accommodation, and that factor will be taken into account in the review to which I have already referred.
Lord Dobbs (Con)
My Lords, can I help the Minister? I am afraid I did not understand much of his original reply, but it seems to me that there is a problem that he has that they do not have in Scotland, Northern Ireland or in Jersey, where humanist marriages have been allowed. Indeed, Scientologists were allowed to marry almost 20 years ago. What specifically is the problem? If there is a problem, will he look to other parts of the United Kingdom for the resolution? They got it right; we need to do something about it.
Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)
My Lords, there are a lot of anomalies within weddings arrangements in England and Wales, and it is for that reason that we want to look at all of them. If we were to go down the route of secondary legislation for humanists, for example, that would create a further anomaly. We do not want to go down that track; we want to look at the whole system in the round.
Lord Cashman (Non-Afl)
My Lords, “in good time” and “in the round” are just not good enough. There is a gross unfairness in that couples wishing to have a humanist ceremony in England and Wales must also have a civil ceremony, which means additional cost and outlay. Will the Government, instead of giving excuses, move forward and commit to taking action?
Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)
I can say to the noble Lord only what I said to other questioners, which is we want to look at this question in the round. There are many other groups—faith and non-faith—who also feel they are not fairly treated by the current arrangements, and we want to take their views into account when we look at this.
Baroness Murphy (CB)
My Lords, it may be an anomaly, but there are now 350 religious organisations in this country which are registered to conduct weddings. In 2013, an order was laid in Parliament that we could approve weddings for humanists. Why are we allowing this anomaly to continue? Is it not straight discrimination?
Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)
My Lords, my answer is the same as that given to the previous questions, which is that there are indeed anomalies in weddings law within England and Wales; they cut across many religious and non-religious groups, and we want to look at the question in the round.
Baroness Burt of Solihull (LD)
My Lords, just to change the angle for a little bit, humanists have a long tradition of conducting same-sex wedding ceremonies, with LGBT people much more likely to be non-religious than the population as a whole. Does the Minister agree that such a change in the law would be significant for same-sex couples?
Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)
The statistic that the noble Baroness cited is accurate from my experience. Yes, such a change would have a disproportionate benefit for same-sex couples, and that factor should be taken into account in the review.
Lord Meston (CB)
My Lords, does the Minister agree that, rather than an equality impact assessment, what are required are certainty, clarity and essential fairness in the law governing all marriages, religious and non-religious, in line with the recommendations of the Law Commission back in 2022? People now use a variety of ceremonies—religious and non-religious—and should, frankly, be confident of their status at the end of each ceremony. Surely, the Government can direct reforms to meet those requirements.
Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)
I agree with the noble Lord. The objective of the Government is to have clarity and fairness in relation to weddings within England and Wales. There were 57 recommendations in a 500-page report from the Law Commission, and the Government need to take their time to consider them all carefully.
Lord Watson of Invergowrie (Lab)
My Lords, as other noble Lords have said, England and Wales are outliers on the issue of humanist marriages, with Scotland having applied legal recognition in 2005, Northern Ireland in 2018 and the Channel Islands at the same time. The Republic of Ireland has had it since 2012. To avoid my noble friend having to repeat the same answer, can I put it to him that this is an equalities issue, and it offers the Government the chance to extend laws that exist for some UK citizens to all of us?
Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)
I thank my noble friend for that question. Indeed, it could be seen to be an equalities issue, but the Government’s approach is to look at this matter in the round.
Noble Lords
Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)
I am afraid that my noble friend has been unsuccessful in getting a different answer, but I take the point he makes.
Baroness Berridge (Con)
My Lords, the Minister said “in due course”, but it has been more than two years since the Law Commission report. There are people still getting married in either domestic premises or religious premises that are not registered. They find out—it is usually the women—that they are not lawfully married only when it comes to their wanting a divorce that they then, of course, cannot get. Can the Minister put this somewhere into citizenship, so that people are aware that, if it is going to be only in due course, this injustice will be dealt with?
Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)
The noble Baroness makes an important point. In my time as a family magistrate, I often had people in front of me who were married in religious ceremonies but not married in the eyes of the law, and we had to unpick the arrangements for those separating couples. The noble Baroness has made a very good point.
Lord Watts (Lab)
My Lords, does the Minister understand the concern on these Benches that the last Government used to use “in due course” to do nothing for long periods, sometimes years? Can the Minister start a different process, and give some indication of when this matter will come back to the Chamber and where the Government will take action?
Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)
Well, I have been advised by my Leader that I need to say “in the fullness of time”.