Westminster Hall is an alternative Chamber for MPs to hold debates, named after the adjoining Westminster Hall.
Each debate is chaired by an MP from the Panel of Chairs, rather than the Speaker or Deputy Speaker. A Government Minister will give the final speech, and no votes may be called on the debate topic.
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The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Hilary Benn)
What a pleasure it is to serve under your chairship, Ms Vaz. I congratulate the hon. and learned Member for North Antrim (Jim Allister) on securing the debate. It is good to see so many colleagues from Northern Ireland in the Chamber. All of us will agree on one thing: the importance of Northern Ireland to our Union.
The hon. and learned Member made with great passion a number of points that are familiar to me and others. In return, I say that the Government are committed to the implementation of the Windsor framework in good faith. We are also committed to protecting Northern Ireland’s place in the United Kingdom and in the UK internal market. The arrangements made under the “Safeguarding the Union” Command Paper to further smooth the flow of goods are also intended to reaffirm in law Northern Ireland’s constitutional place in the UK internal market. The Government are clear that the Windsor framework arrangements, together with the steps taken under “Safeguarding the Union”, respect Northern Ireland’s unique circumstances and, crucially, they do so in a manner that is compatible with international law.
Let me say gently to the hon. and learned Gentleman that we have spent about nine years as a nation grappling with the problem—he referred to it as a challenge; I describe it as a problem—of how to protect the integrity of the UK’s internal market, avoid a hard border on the island of Ireland, and respect the legitimate interests of our friends and neighbours in Brussels when it comes to the protection of the integrity of their single market. Those are the three things that had to be reconciled. Throughout that process, people have said, “There is another way you can do it. You can have mutual enforcement; you can have this, that and the other.” Those proposals were, during the height of the Brexit negotiations, referred to rather disobliging by others as “magical thinking”, but—
Jim Allister
The magical thinking originated within the European Commission. It was those in the European Commission who first postulated the idea of mutual enforcement, only to be shot down by an agenda from Dublin and the other European countries. The very genesis of it came because it was seen as a viable proposition—and why is it not a viable proposition to mutually enforce the requirements on trade going either way?
Hilary Benn
For my many and varied sins, I spent a number of years chairing the Brexit Select Committee. We looked at all of these things at great length, and I have to say to the hon. and learned Gentleman on the basis of that experience that nothing hoved into view that would address the central question: how to maintain an open border—one of the very few things that everybody agreed on during Brexit was that there could not be checks or infrastructure at the border, for reasons that all of us in the Chamber well understand—while ensuring, as a good neighbour, that the European Union can be confident that goods arriving in Northern Ireland, which could then move freely into the EU by crossing the border into the Republic, comply with the rules of its single market.
Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)
The Secretary of State was elaborating on the problems we have to grapple with. Does he agree that there are just three ways of dealing with those problems? One is to ignore them in the hope that they will go away. The second is to keep complaining about them but not doing anything about them. The third is to actually work at resolving them, and that is what all of us, but principally His Majesty’s Government, should be doing.
Hilary Benn
I hope it will not come as a surprise to the hon. Gentleman if I say that I agree with him. Complaining and ignoring does not get us very far. He anticipates what I am about to come on to: the progress we have seen as a result of the Windsor framework.
Gavin Robinson (Belfast East) (DUP)
I thank the Secretary of State for getting to the point where he talks about progress, but I remind him, as he will have heard this morning, that every Ulster MP in Westminster Hall today rails against the fundamental impediment to our constitutional position and the overarching framework that has been imposed upon us against our will. But we worked on solutions and reached arrangements and agreements with the Government in “Safeguarding the Union” about ensuring the movement of goods within our UK internal market, which he supported when he was in opposition, and those agreements need to be honoured. While deadlines have slipped, there is a huge imperative for him and his Government to respond appropriately and earnestly implement the very things that saw a return to devolution in Northern Ireland.
Hilary Benn
I have great respect for the right hon. Gentleman, and he and I have had many discussions about progress on implementing the commitments made in “Safeguarding the Union”. He can see the progress that has been made, and he and I have discussed issues where there is work in progress.
By the way, the original protocol, which had many flaws and difficulties, and the Windsor framework negotiated by the previous Government, which represents a considerable improvement, were both approved democratically by this Parliament. The hon. and learned Member for North Antrim argues that they were imposed from Brussels, but it was this Parliament that decided the way to reconcile the choices—impossible choices, in a way—that leaving the European Union created. Frankly, I would not have started from here, as I think he well understands, but this is a consequence of a decision taken by the British people, and Parliament decided to put these arrangements in place. To reject the idea that there is an issue that needs to be addressed is not the responsible thing to do, and therefore the Windsor framework represented a considerable step forward.
Sammy Wilson
The Secretary of State is making much of the fact that this Parliament imposed these arrangements on Northern Ireland, but he set out three objectives: to protect the EU market, to protect the Union and to protect the UK internal market. The European Union is happy with the arrangements, but the other two objectives have not been achieved. Whether this Parliament voted for it or not, the internal market is not operating. There are lots of examples of that, as the Secretary of State knows, because I am sure people complain to him every month, as they do to us. As has been pointed out, we are not part of the United Kingdom any longer when our laws cannot even be made in our own Parliament.
Hilary Benn
Northern Ireland is very much part of the United Kingdom. I was merely pointing out that the protocol and the Windsor framework were democratic decisions of this Parliament, of which Northern Ireland is a part. After much debate, consideration, argument and disputation, that is how this Parliament decided to move things forward. The Windsor framework, which I spoke in favour of and supported, was a considerable step forward on the arrangements originally negotiated in the Northern Ireland protocol, which were never going to work. For example, requiring an export health certificate for every one of the items on the back of the supermarket lorries that come across from Cairnryan to Larne and Belfast every single night was never a practical proposition. The Windsor framework has replaced potentially 1,000 or 2,000 certificates with one certificate. That is a step forward by anybody’s definition.
Turning to the question of the consent vote, that is part of the provision that has been made to allow the Assembly to take a decision. I have triggered the consent process, as Members will be aware. It is for the Assembly to take that decision. If it approves the continued operation of the Windsor framework, it will last for another eight years if the approval is on a cross-community basis, or—I speak from memory—for another four years if not. It is for the Members of the Assembly to make that decision, but the framework really does bring a lot of benefits.
At the beginning of his contribution, the hon. and learned Member for North Antrim talked about the fettering of Northern Ireland businesses’ access to GB, if I heard him correctly. There is no fettering of Northern Ireland businesses’ access to GB.
Jim Allister
I referred specifically to access from GB to Northern Ireland—the supply chain—because our manufacturing businesses depend on raw materials from GB. That has been fettered, and that is what caused the Supreme Court to say that article 6 is in suspension.
Hilary Benn
I did listen very carefully. The record will show exactly what the hon. and learned Gentleman said, but I take his point. When it comes to access to materials and goods moving from GB to Northern Ireland, that does happen under the Windsor framework. There are certain things that businesses have to do, but the goods do flow, and it is important to recognise that in this debate. Indeed, 71% of respondents to last year’s Northern Ireland annual trade survey said that dual market access was enabling their business to grow, so we should listen to what Northern Ireland businesses say. We have the Northern Ireland retail movement scheme, the internal market scheme and the Northern Ireland plant health label scheme, all of which help businesses to do business.
One of the gains as a result of the Windsor framework is that UK public health and safety standards apply on the basis that the goods will remain in Northern Ireland. That is a big step forward compared with what was previously the case. The framework has unlocked agreements with the EU on tariff rate quotas, enabling businesses from Northern Ireland to import steel and agrifood products under UK tariff rates. The right hon. Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson) referred to the duty reimbursement scheme, but that is now operating. An agreement was reached on human medicines.
We will continue to work with the European Union to implement the Windsor framework in good faith, and to deal with some of the challenges. As hon. Members know, I spend quite a lot of my time dealing with some of the challenges that arise from the implementation of the arrangement. There has been a delay in the arrival of the parcels scheme, which has put back the new, much reduced customs and information requirements. Those will now come into effect next year. We have also reached an agreement with the EU on dental amalgam. Those are all examples of practical ways of making progress.
Alex Easton
There may have been some progress in certain areas of the Windsor framework, but there are still problems with pet passports for those travelling from the rest of the UK to Northern Ireland, there are still barriers to trade—I recently wrote to the Secretary of State about lorries being turned away from ports—and there are still problems with medication, such as attention deficit hyperactivity disorder drugs. Some people are ordering those goods online, and others are not able to get them at all. There are still substantial issues, and there is still a border down the Irish sea. Does the Secretary of State understand how that makes us feel as Unionists who want to remain part of the United Kingdom?
Hilary Benn
I do understand, and I hear the strength of feeling. I have tried to explain why we are in this situation. It is our departure from the European Union that has created every single one of the issues that the hon. Gentleman has just identified. We have to find a practical way forward in honouring the decision that the British people made in the referendum.
Many of the issues that have been identified today could be resolved if we are able to negotiate a sanitary and phytosanitary agreement and a veterinary agreement with the European Union. This Government have come into office committed to trying to do that. The last Government were not committed to doing that. As every hon. Member in the Chamber knows, we will get such an agreement only if we honour the last agreement we signed with the European Union, because why would they give us an agreement if we prove ourselves to be unreliable?
Motion lapsed (Standing Order No. 10(6)).