Westminster Hall is an alternative Chamber for MPs to hold debates, named after the adjoining Westminster Hall.
Each debate is chaired by an MP from the Panel of Chairs, rather than the Speaker or Deputy Speaker. A Government Minister will give the final speech, and no votes may be called on the debate topic.
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Rachel Maclean (Redditch) (Con)
I am grateful to be called to speak in this debate, Sir George. Like other colleagues, I add my extreme thanks to my hon. Friend the Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge (Miriam Cates), who set out the case for change and, what’s more, advanced some practical suggestions, legislative and other, for how we go about achieving that change. I will therefore not focus my remarks on that but instead reflect on my personal experience and perhaps add another dimension.
I am a mother of four and a grandmother to two—a two-and-a-half-year-old and a baby. When my children were growing up, I had my own battles with the internet as it was at the time, and with the phones that they had. I had my battle with video games and all the other things they were involved in, both at school and home. It was extremely tough to have those battles with your children and draw the line between what is educational, what is dangerous and what is addictive. But the world has changed so much since then and we are in a new world. Some people watching the debate may say that it is about parental responsibility and that parents are failing their children and need to do more; I say to them that that misses a big part of the picture.
I accept that we need to ask parents to step up. Whatever we do as a Government, we will still require parents to take responsibility. Parents cannot outsource everything to the Government. We as Conservatives must be bold enough to say to parents, “Look, we have brought in these protections, but if you are trying to get round them by just giving your own phone to your child, of course you are going to have a harmful impact on them.” We need to tell them to take responsibility, but there is a clear moral case for us to act, as my hon. Friend the Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge set out. I am the first to believe in freedom, but I think we all agree that this is not freedom. We are actually removing freedom from children and parents.
I will focus on two other points, because I am aware that time is short. I have been made aware of a fantastic organisation called Smartphone Free Childhood, which I understand is now setting up groups all around the country. I pay tribute to its work, and I am interested to hear from people locally who are involved in it at the grassroots level. I want to hear from parents, families and young people in my constituency of Redditch. I am interested to hear about their experiences on the ground. Do they think the existing protection of banning phones in schools goes far enough? What is their experience in their own classrooms, families and, most importantly, peer groups? Are the protections working? Do I need to get involved? Can I help in any way on the ground at the grassroots level?
I would welcome the Minister’s consideration of one more point. I know that he is not the Minister responsible for this policy area, but perhaps he could speak to his colleagues; I will certainly be doing so. My hon. Friend the Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge mentioned the impact of very early mobile phone use on emotional, social and cognitive development. In this country we also have a concerning rise in the numbers of children in the special educational needs and disabilities category—children with special needs, developmental delays, complex cognitive, emotional and behavioural problems, and autism spectrum disorders. It is a huge area. We are seeing a rise in those conditions, and they require specialist provision from local authorities. I know there is huge pressure on local authorities to provide places for children. I am interested to know what research, if any, has been done to link mobile phone and social media use to the rise in those conditions in our children, young people and even young adults, because some of the conditions—
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology (Saqib Bhatti)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir George. I commend my hon. Friend the Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge (Miriam Cates) for securing this important debate. She is a passionate campaigner, and I thank her for her engagement on this issue on numerous occasions, including by coming to see me. I also thank the hon. Member for Rhondda (Sir Chris Bryant); worryingly, this is the second time in about 24 hours that I have found myself agreeing with him.
Saqib Bhatti
The hon. Gentleman calls on me to resign. Before he asks me to join him on his Benches, I should say that a space on our Benches recently became available, if he wants it. I found myself in considerable agreement with him.
I thank all hon. Members for their contributions. This is clearly a hugely complex issue. I want to start by stating that before being a Minister, I am a parent. I probably make my colleagues sick by talking about that constantly, but it is one of the most rewarding and fulfilling privileges of my lifetime. Being a parent is also one of the scariest things. I have to worry, as we all do, about whether they will grow up to be healthy, make friends at school and, now, whether they will be safe in the online world as well as in the offline world.
I also want my children to have a fulfilling childhood, to learn the skills of tomorrow while we protect them online. Therein lies the conundrum.
Saqib Bhatti
I will make a little progress. I want to focus on the issue of research and data. The UK chief medical officer, among others, has systematically reviewed the scientific evidence and concluded that an association between screen-based activities and poor mental health exists, but existing research does not yet prove a causal relationship. Other investigations, however, such as those by Professor Haidt, as mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge, into the link between these technologies and mental health have suggested a harmful relationship. The scientific community is considering Professor Haidt’s findings, and we are watching that discussion with interest.
I want to reassure hon. Members that on research and causality, I am considering every option to ensure we leave no stone unturned. I will look at this very closely to ensure that any policies that come forward are based on science and data.
Miriam Cates
I thank my hon. Friend for his reassuring insistence that he will look into the data. The US Surgeon General, who recently visited Parliament, made the point that, if social media or smartphones were a drug, they would be immediately withdrawn from the market because of the harm they are reputed to cause. Even if the full causality is not as established as the Minister wants, is the evidence not so clear and the impact so harmful that it would be sensible to withdraw social media before conducting that research?
Saqib Bhatti
I thank my hon. Friend, who has made that point passionately, both here and in private. The important thing is to have the data to back such a significant conclusion, because social media also benefits young people and society and a balance has to be achieved.
Saqib Bhatti
I am going to make some progress. To be clear, that does not rule out taking a precautionary approach. We need to consider the impacts carefully before taking action. As the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children said before this debate, it is important to strike the right balance between protecting children from harm and allowing them to reap the benefits of safe internet use. We will continue to explore options in this space. I welcome further engagement, research and evidence in this area to inform our policies.
Dean Russell
On those points, does the Minister agree that this is not just about addiction for some, but about dependency and harm for many? Artificial intelligence is only going to supercharge this. Does he agree that tech companies need to be held to account and ensure protections are in place, and that Ofcom needs to use the powers it has been given to force them to do that?
Saqib Bhatti
I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. Let me say clearly that there is no reason why the tech companies could not have acted over the past few years. There is no reason for them to wait for Ofcom’s code of practice; they should be getting on with the job. I said that as a Back Bencher, and I mean it. The Online Safety Act is what we consider to be technology-agnostic. It covers a lot of the incidences of AI, but we obviously continue to monitor the situation.
Vicky Ford
I am so glad that my hon. Friend says he is looking at all options to keep children safe. On the issue of preventing children from being able to upload sexual content or from being groomed into uploading sexual images, will he look at the suggestion put to me by the national police lead and others of putting controls at systems level, so that a phone cannot upload that content when the upload is by a child?
Saqib Bhatti
I will limit further interventions due the time I have, but I will write to my right hon. Friend on that issue.
Saqib Bhatti
I will make some progress. We are aware of the ongoing debate regarding the age at which children should have a smartphone. We recognise the risks that technology such as smartphones pose, but I would argue that a ban would not necessarily achieve the outcome we wish. As has already been said, children can find ways through. We also have to consider who we are criminalising and how legislation would intervene in the lives of the private individual. We live in a digital age and many parents want their children to have a smartphone, as they provide benefits to children and parents, such as staying connected while travelling alone. In other words, trying to protect children from one harm may well lead to another. I speak to many parents who give me the other side of the argument, and I wanted to put that on the record.
The decision on whether a child should have access to a smartphone should not be one for Government. Instead, we should empower parents to make the right call for their children and their individual circumstances. In fact, parents as consumers can influence the market themselves. It is my belief that choice is a liberty that parents and children should be allowed to exercise.
I agree that online platforms must take responsibility for the harmful effects of the design of their services and their business models. That is why the Online Safety Act is a groundbreaking piece of legislation, which puts the onus on platforms to ensure that children are protected. I want to reassure parents that the legislation will change significantly how our children grow up in the online world. If social media companies do not do the right thing, we have given Ofcom the teeth to go after them—and I fully expect it to do so.
Children’s wellbeing is at the heart of the Act, and the strongest protections are for children. Under the new regulations, social media platforms will need to assess the risks of their services facilitating illegal content and activity. That includes illegal abuse, harassment or stirring up hatred. They will need to assess the risk of children being harmed on their services by content that does not cross the illegal threshold, but that is harmful to them, which is something that was brought up.
Saqib Bhatti
I will make some progress as I am very short on time, and I want to give my hon. Friend the Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge time to respond.
I want to be unequivocal here: the Online Safety Act ensures that the UK is the safest place to be online, requiring all companies to take robust action against illegal content. Last week, Ofcom published the draft codes of practice for the child safety rules. Those protections are a real game changer and will establish the foundation to protect generations to come. I commend Ofcom for its proposals. It rightly puts the onus on big tech to do the right thing and keep our children safe. I say this to big tech: with great reward comes great responsibility. They have that responsibility and they must act.
Part of the codes identify risks that children need to be protected from, and they also set out the requirement for platforms to implement highly effective age assurance technology to prevent children from encountering harmful content on their services, including pornography, and content that depicts serious violence or promotes serious self-harm, suicide and eating disorders.
Tackling suicide and self-harm material is a key objective of the Online Safety Act. We have heard too many stories of the devastating impact of that content, and I commend all the parents who have campaigned on the issue. They have gone through the most unimaginable, heartbreaking and heart-wrenching challenges. We continue to engage with them, and I commend them for their bravery. There is a live consultation on age assurance at the moment and I encourage all Members to engage with that.
My hon. Friend the Member for Redditch (Rachel Maclean) raised a number of key issues and I will write to her in response. She also talked about parental responsibility, which is important. I think she raised the issue of chat functions, which are also in the scope of the Online Safety Act. The hon. Member for Stirling (Alyn Smith) spoke about the tragic case of Murray Dowey. I offer my condolences to the parents and my open door; I would be more than happy to meet them with the hon. Member in attendance.
My hon. Friends the Members for Stoke-on-Trent North (Jonathan Gullis) and for Great Grimsby (Lia Nici) talked about the responsibility of the Department for Education. I am sure that has been heard, and I will continue to engage with Minsters. My right hon. Friend the Member for North East Hampshire (Mr Jayawardena) talked about his Nokia 3210. Nokia has started remarketing the 3210, so he should look forward to a Christmas present—not from me, but from someone who likes him. I wish him all the best with that.
My final comment is that I would be happy to meet my hon. Friend the Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge, as would the Secretary of State.