Strengthening the Union as it Relates to Wales (First sitting)
(Limited Text - Ministerial Extracts only)
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The Secretary of State for Wales (Simon Hart)
I beg to move,
That the Committee has considered the matter of strengthening the Union as it relates to Wales.
I welcome you to the Chair, Mr Davies. I know you would love to make a longer contribution, but sadly on this occasion we will be denied that particular pleasure. This is the first Welsh Grand Committee for some time, and it is a huge pleasure to introduce it. I welcome colleagues. Another cause of celebration is that it coincides with the birthday of my hon. Friend the Member for Brecon and Radnorshire—as if there were not enough to enjoy about today’s proceedings, we can add that to our list.
The country is talking of other political matters at the moment, but I want to spend my time this morning talking about the UK Government’s achievements in Wales, why the Union matters and why, thankfully, three out of four voters at the last opportunity still supported Unionist parties in Wales. In a week when apologies are on everyone’s lips, I will be making no apologies for this being the most active and engaged UK Government in Wales for the last 20 years; no apologies for standing up, when necessary and forced, to a Welsh Government who sometimes seem to enjoy all the responsibility but little of the accountability when it comes to Welsh matters; no apologies for taking a very proactive approach to covid and recovery, particularly in our economic interventions; and no apologies at all for delivering what 54% of the people of Wales voted for back in 2016, despite numerous efforts by some of our political opponents to reverse, delay or deny what happened in that referendum.
I will start with a reference to the Union—I make no apologies for my Unionist credentials, either. Sometimes, our attitudes as politicians of the Union can be wilfully misrepresented. For me, the Union is not a political movement or party; it is not instead of national identity, but as well as it. We all know that it is perfectly possible—we see it among our constituents all the time—to be patriotic and enthusiastically champion everything that is Welsh, but at the same time to recognise the value of the Union. How often have we all heard, even in Plaid Cymru seats, people say, “I’m passionately Welsh but I’m also British”?
In my mind, the question is not, “Could Wales survive on its own?”. An accusation that is occasionally, and sometimes legitimately, levelled at us—because of the manner in which we have sometimes constructed our arguments—is that we are suggesting that Wales could not survive on its own. I have never subscribed to that view. However, I have always asked, if Wales was to survive on its own, what would be the economic, social and cultural cost of taking that step? My attitude to the Union is one of respect, but it is also one of reality—of wanting to take a really detailed look at some of the more complex areas of the debate, around defence, currency, intelligence, security and international trade.
Simon Hart
If I could get into my stride and warm up a bit before I take interventions, I would be very grateful.
The question for today is, “What have the UK Government delivered for Wales while covid has been the dominant news story?”. I will not share it with hon. Members because it would take far too long, but I have two and a half pages of very varied, but very significant, achievements that the Government have been able to deliver—sometimes in collaboration with the Welsh Government, sometimes not. For example, £121 million has been directly invested through the first round of the levelling-up fund. The diversity of this is worth noting.
The Government have increased the Army footprint in Wales, the only part of the UK that saw an increase—from 6.7% to 7.3%. The Queen’s Dragoon Guards will return to Wales, to Caerwent, in the constituency of the Under-Secretary of State for Wales, my hon. Friend the Member for Monmouth. There will be a new reservist unit in the constituency of Wrexham. We are saving Brecon barracks—such an important part of the social and economic heartlands of the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Brecon and Radnorshire. We put £30 million into developing the first centre for rail excellence, which is between Port Talbot and Brecon, and will create 150 direct jobs.
The small ruminant rule has been lifted. Who would have ever thought that the small ruminant rule would play such a significant part in our lives? The lifting of it, which is enabling Welsh lamb to be marketed in the United States for the first time in nearly 25 years, is a significant moment for our farming industry. With the Welsh Government and the First Minister, we set up the coal tip safety taskforce—jointly chaired by the First Minister and me—securing £31 million for the Tylorstown tip and creating the first register of coal tips and their safety in Wales. No doubt there will be more on that.
There are other things, too: the £4.8 million investment in Holyhead hydrogen hub, and accelerated funding for the Cardiff city, Swansea bay, north Wales and mid Wales city and growth deals. The mid Wales growth deal, worth £55 million, was signed by the Under-Secretary of State for Wales, my hon. Friend the Member for Monmouth only last week. We have invested £31.9 million to develop electric propulsion systems in Cwmbran, and there is Wales-specific funding through the British Business Bank of £130 million. I could—and I will—go on, and I know my hon. Friend will go on later.
There is lots to say, and it is all positive, imaginative and innovative. It is all about jobs—sustaining existing jobs and creating new jobs as we come, we hope, out of the pandemic for the last time. Probably the best example of the strength and value of the Union is the way in which we have been able to join forces with so many people in our pandemic response. I could go through a long list, but hon. Members should cast their minds back to the furlough scheme: one in three jobs in Wales was protected, at very short notice, by the might of the UK Treasury.
Jo Stevens (Cardiff Central) (Lab)
Will the Secretary of State take the opportunity to thank the TUC? It was its representations to the Chancellor of the Exchequer that led to the furlough scheme.
Simon Hart
I am very grateful for the intervention, because I would like to thank a number of people. I do not think this scheme was the particular brainchild of any one group of people or other, but it was an urgent response to a serious and potentially catastrophic issue, so I extend my thanks to anybody who may have had a stake in that process. However, I particularly commend the Treasury. In all our time as Members of Parliament, we have probably not always thought of it as an organisation that moves at lightning speed, but on this occasion it did move at lightning speed, and it has saved hundreds of thousands—millions—of jobs in the process. The Chancellor took decisions that nobody thought possible at the time and implemented a scheme at a speed that nobody thought feasible at the time, and one in three of our constituents on the payroll in Wales had their job secured as a result.
Simon Hart
May I give way to the hon. Member for Arfon before coming to the hon. Member for Llanelli?
Hywel Williams
Dwi’n ddiolchgar iawn i’r Ysgrifennydd Gwladol am ildio. Ar nodyn hanesyddol, byddai Lloyd George yn dweud nad oedd yn dweud llawer o ddim byd am y pum munud cyntaf, er mwyn caniatáu i’r Siambr lenwi, wrth gwrs. Credaf bod hyn yn esiampl. Tra mae wrthi yn gwneud y diolchiadau, ydy’r Aelod gwir anrhydeddus am restru nid yn unig y buddion sy’n dod o’r Undeb, ond hefyd y costau? Hefyd, i Aelodau anrhydeddus yn ystod y dydd, a yw’r Llywodraeth am nodi yr hyn yr ydym yn ei golli o fod yn yr Undeb?
(Translation) I am grateful to the Secretary of State for giving way. On a historical note, Lloyd George used to say that he did not say much for the first five minutes, to allow the Chamber to fill up, of course. I believe this is an example. While the right hon. Gentleman is expressing his thanks, will he list not only the benefits but the costs of the Union? Will the Government also note for hon. Members throughout the day what we lose from being part of the Union?
Simon Hart
I could not catch the hon. Gentleman’s question, partly because I could not get the headset to work at that speed, but the Under-Secretary of State for Wales passes on the fact that it is about the cost of the Union. Perhaps, when the hon. Member for Arfon is able to make his contribution, he will be able to expand on his arguments. As I will come to later in my speech, the value of the Union is what really matters as far as we are concerned. As I mentioned earlier, if any kind of coherent argument is to be made against the Union, it needs to be made in the context of its value rather than necessarily its cost.
I will mention one thing that always baffles me about the Plaid Cymru approach to the Union. For the last four and a half years, we have heard endlessly, relentlessly and somewhat tiresomely about the fact that Wales could not possibly survive outside the European Union; we have been reminded endlessly that our economic health has depended on our membership of it. The nation of Wales happened to take a different view from the hon. Gentleman, but I would love to know why he thinks that it is possible to survive outside the UK when apparently it is impossible to survive outside the EU.
Simon Hart
I am not going to give way again, because I said that I would give way to the hon. Member for Llanelli.
Nia Griffith
Indeed, actions were taken quickly by the Treasury, but what happened in October and November 2020, when there was a huge delay? The Welsh Government recognised the need to use that half-term to have that firebreak, yet there seemed to be no movement by the UK Treasury. Where was the close working there? Where was the good relationship? Are there not ways, now, in which we could improve that relationship and make it work better, so that the UK Government take more notice of what the Welsh Government are saying and work better with them?
Simon Hart
Our intergovernmental relations paper was published last week. That would probably help me to answer the hon. Lady’s question. I think I am right in saying that back at the time of the example that she gives, the Treasury did make absolutely clear to the Welsh Government what was possible and what was not in that timescale. I am afraid to say that the Welsh Government, in that case, completely ignored the information that was given by the Treasury, and then made what I thought was a rather salacious effort to exploit that in the press, when they knew very well that the Treasury was working to the fastest legal speed that it was able to. That was one of those cases where there was a little bit of political opportunism at a time when the nation was looking to us for a practical solution.
Several hon. Members rose—
Simon Hart
I will give way to my right hon. Friend the Member for Preseli Pembrokeshire.
Stephen Crabb (Preseli Pembrokeshire) (Con)
May I draw my right hon. Friend back to the point about the furlough scheme, in the context of the strength of the Union, because I think the point about that scheme is even better than he alluded to? The truth is that the scheme was a much bigger success than anybody had anticipated. Far from there being a crisis of unemployment at the end of 2021—as so many Opposition Members had predicted—when the furlough scheme was unwound, we actually had a boom in job creation and no employment shortage up and down the country, so full credit to the Treasury and the decision making of the Chancellor and his colleagues.
Simon Hart
My right hon. Friend is right. The decision-making point that he makes is particularly apposite, because these decisions were being made at breakneck speed in unbelievably unpredictable conditions and under significant pressure, and they turned out to be the right calls. They were made for the right reason, at the right time. It is no coincidence that the unemployment figures now show that there are over 400,000 more people in work than there were before the pandemic.
Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)
The furlough scheme was a great success, and I commend the Government for bringing it in. I do not know whether the Minister had the same experience as me, but throughout covid one of the difficulties was explaining to constituents the differences between Welsh and English policies. It was sometimes very difficult to get to the bottom of them, in particular with financial support for businesses in Wales, which could only be announced once the Welsh Government had had the money from the UK Government. That was difficult to explain to people, and to get out to people in a proportionate time. The single biggest question I have now is, why is HS2 considered to be an England and Wales project, when it does not benefit Wales at all?
Simon Hart
A neat means of getting in on the HS2 question.
As the hon. Gentleman knows, I believe that a consistent approach to interventions, whether regulations or financial interventions, would in many cases have been more desirable for exactly the reason he pointed out; it would have been simpler to understand precisely what was on offer and exactly why we were doing things in the way we were. It was unfortunate that, from time to time, those arrangements were not as consistent as they could have been.
By the way, the hon. Gentleman’s point enables me to say that it was very important that the financial contributions that we were able to make to the Welsh Government were upfronted, rather than the usual Barnett system of them being provided retrospectively.
Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op)
The issue here is consistency. I pay full credit to the Treasury when it acts properly and constructively with the Welsh Government, as it did over the Celsa Steel plant in my constituency during the height of the pandemic. It was a sensible co-operation and I thank the Secretary of State’s office for assistance on that.
On the cladding issues, which affect thousands of my constituents—a serious situation that they have faced under covid—there is not that co-operation between the Department for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities and the Welsh Government to tackle it. There is a desire for co-operation with some sound politics behind it, as thousands of people are in very difficult circumstances, but often announcements are made up here without consultation with the Welsh Government in advance, so that they can supply information to the thousands of people affected.
The Chair
Order. Twenty-one people want to speak, so may we try to keep interventions short, in the asking and the answering?
Simon Hart
I agree with the hon. Member for Cardiff South and Penarth that co-operation and collaboration is generally speaking a preferable route; it works both ways. The IGR—the intergovernmental review paper, which I commend to him—will address a number of the concerns that he has raised.
On the instructions of the Chair, rightly, let us press on. I do not have a lot more to cover, but the point about collaboration with the Welsh Government is well made. Of course, I completely accept that a bespoke approach is important. However, there are also occasions—we have to admit this, on whatever side of the political fence we sit—where evidence does not support the decisions that have been taken.
In the past few weeks—although the matters that have overtaken us are another example—curious interventions have suggested that people might be fined for going to work, but not necessarily for going to the pub. They could do indoor exercise, but not parkrun, which is well known to be a contributor to people’s physical and mental health, and they could watch rugby from the clubhouse but not from the touchline. Things like that start casting doubt into people’s minds about whether the interventions are evidence-based. Going back to the beginning of the pandemic, I recall the calls that we all heard to follow the science. However, the science seemed to be limited to medical science only, when economic and social sciences are almost as important elements of the evidence that we need to follow as anything else.
Let us cut to the quick: what have the UK Government done? We have become the fastest growing economy in the G7. We are a world leader in the vaccine roll-out. We have done more tests than any other country in Europe. We have got 400,000 more people in work than at the beginning of the pandemic. That is because we are part of a fantastic Union. It is because we recognise the value of the cross-border economic zones, whether that is Mersey Dee, Western Gateway or Mid-Wales and the West Midlands.
I want to finish with this: it is about the future, it is about being optimistic, it is about being creative, it is about sustaining the jobs we have and being imaginative about the jobs we need and the jobs that we can create. It is all about delivering. The Cabinet meeting today is all about delivering. It is about jobs, it is about livelihoods, it is about working with the Welsh Government but also not being afraid to challenge the Welsh Government when we think they have got it wrong. It is continuing the work that we are doing to assist and support them in their responsibilities on things such as coal tips.
Through the levelling-up fund, the shared prosperity fund and the community ownership fund, we will continue to deliver jobs and prosperity not just to well-known parts of Wales, but to every part. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State will be vigorously signing growth deals left, right and centre. We did the mid-Wales growth deal just a few days ago. We will recruit the first ever Veterans Commissioner in Wales to look after the interests of Welsh military veterans. And we will deliver––I always said it was when, not if––the first free port in Wales. We edge ever closer to that moment. We will continue to remain optimistic and co-operative as far as the Welsh Government are concerned in attempting to get that crucial job-creating opportunity on to the books and on to the map in Wales in the very near future.
We will, of course, be central to our plans for net zero in Wales, whether that is small modular reactors, floating offshore wind or continuing to highlight the fact that Wylfa Newydd is probably the world’s––let alone the UK’s––best site for large-scale nuclear. We will look at the value that a nuclear cluster in north Wales can bring, whether that is medical isotopes, thermal hydraulics or any of the other technologies that were unheard of not that long ago but may possibly now have their epicentre in Wales. That is what levelling up is about. That is what the strength of the Union brings to our country, and at no stage does it ever compromise the fact that we are a proud nation in ourselves.
As we come out of one of the more challenging periods of our history, we have a fantastic opportunity to deliver on all those commitments. I do not believe that voters anywhere in Wales much want to hear us talking about a constitutional convention or arguing about who has got what powers and who has responsibility for what. We all know what we are responsible for: the UK Government know what they are responsible for; the Welsh Government know what they are responsible for. As far as I am concerned, the UK Government must get on, do the things we do, do them as well as we can, as lively as we can and as proudly as we can. I am not remotely ashamed of, and nor will I ever apologise for, the fact that the UK Government will be more visible, more active, more effective and more successful in achieving the things that we all want, whether they are social, cultural or economic. Now that we have the pandemic somewhere in our sights, our absolute focus in every Department of the UK Government will be to deliver on that commitment.
The Chair
I remind the Committee that the English translation of contributions in Welsh will come through channel 2. I ask Members to unplug their headsets when they are not using them. That will mean that when someone speaks Welsh, everyone will have to plug in at once.
Ben Lake
Thank you, Mr Davies. I am grateful to the hon. Member for Bridgend for that intervention. I acknowledge the truth of what he is saying, in that a number of the Wales Acts have been introduced in the last 10 years under Conservative Administrations, although I would point out that we still have an asymmetric devolution settlement in which Wales does not enjoy the same level of autonomy and discretion over policy areas that Northern Ireland and Scotland take for granted. Indeed, even certain city regions in England have greater discretion and influence over certain policy areas than the Welsh Government, such as policing. I will come on to that point in a moment.
Y meysydd polisi sy’n amlygu canlyniadau anffodus yr ymagwedd hon fwyaf yw polisi isadeiledd trafnidiaeth a llywodraethiant Ystad y Goron yng Nghymru. Os trown ni’n gyntaf at ein rheilffyrdd, mae’n ffaith bod nifer o aelodau ar ddwy ochr y Pwyllgor wedi crybwyll yn y gorffennol bod rheilffyrdd Cymru yn cael eu hesgeuluso’n ddifrifol dan y setliad presennol a bod gwaith adnewyddu a gwella’r rhwydwaith yn dioddef o danariannu sylweddol. Mae gan Gymru tua 11% o rwydwaith rheilffyrdd y Deyrnas Unedig, ond ar gyfartaledd mae’n derbyn dim ond tua 6% o wariant Prydeinig ar weithrediadau, gwaith cynnal a chadw ac, yn bwysig iawn, gwaith adnewyddu. Mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi cyfrifo y bydd rheilffyrdd yng Nghymru yn dioddef tanfuddsoddiad o tua £2.9 biliwn yn y cyfnod rhwng 2001 a 2029 am y rheswm hynny.
Nid yw’r ffigurau hyn yn syndod, wrth gwrs, os cofiwn ni fod Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Unedig wedi ymrwymo i fuddsoddi jyst £350 miliwn yng Nghymru yn y cyfnod hwn ar welliannau o gymharu â thua £50 biliwn ledled y DU. Yn wir, bu Llywodraeth Cymru yn go blwmp ac yn blaen am y sefyllfa, yn dadlau bod methiannau’r Undeb yn y maes hwn wedi arwain at ddibrisio a thanfuddsoddi yn rhwydwaith rheilffyrdd Cymru
“o gymharu â’r rhwydwaith yn Lloegr.”
Mae hyn yn amharu nid yn unig ar yr economi ond hefyd ar ein gallu i ddatgarboneiddio ein rhwydwaith trafnidiaeth.
Efallai y cawn yr enghraifft gliriaf o fethiant, ac yn wir ffolineb, y setliad presennol yn HS2, prosiect fydd, yn ôl un adroddiad gan Lywodraeth Prydain—ac rwy’n eithaf siŵr mai’r Trysorlys ei hun wnaeth gomisiynu adroddiad gan KPMG—yn golygu y byddai Cymru’n gweld colled o tua £150 miliwn y flwyddyn mewn allbwn economaidd. Ond er gwaetha’r ffaith yma, mae’r Trysorlys yn parhau i adnabod y prosiect fel un sydd o fudd i Gymru a Lloegr. O ganlyniad i hyn, mae Cymru mewn perygl o golli rhwng £4 biliwn a £5 biliwn mewn buddsoddiad yn yr isadeiledd trafnidiaeth, a hynny oherwydd yr ymdriniaeth a gaiff gan y Trysorlys.
(Translation) The main policy areas that manifest the unfortunate results of this attitude are transport infrastructure and the Crown Estate in Wales. A number of Members on both sides of the Committee have suggested that Welsh railways are being seriously neglected by the current settlement and that refurbishment work really lacks funding. Wales has around 11% of the UK rail network but on average receives only about 6% of the current expenditure on maintenance and, importantly, refurbishment and renewal work. The Welsh Government have estimated that railways in Wales will suffer an underinvestment of about £2.9 billion between 2001 and 2029 for that reason.
Those figures are no surprise if we bear in mind that the UK Government committed to investing around £350 million in Wales in that period on improvements, compared with around £50 billion across the United Kingdom. The Welsh Government were quite clear about the situation, arguing that failings of the Union in that regard had led to the devaluing of and underinvestment in the Welsh rail network
“compared to the network in England.”
That impairs not only the economy but our ability to decarbonise our transport network.
A clear example of the failure, and indeed stupidity, of the current settlement is the HS2 project. The UK Government said—I am sure that it was the Treasury that commissioned a KPMG report—that Wales could see a loss of £150 million a year in economic output. But despite that, the Treasury continues to recognise the project as one that is beneficial to Wales and England. Wales is in danger of losing between £4 billion and £5 billion in investment in transport infrastructure as a result of the treatment that it receives from the Treasury.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (David T. C. Davies)
Rwy’n ddiolchgar i’r Aelod anrhydeddus am ildio. Ydy e’n derbyn bod Network Rail wedi dweud bod Cymru, yn enwedig gogledd Cymru, yn mynd i elwa o’r ffaith bod ni’n mynd i gael cysylltiadau gwell gyda Llundain oherwydd HS2?
(Translation) I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way. Does he accept that Network Rail has said that Wales—particularly north Wales—was going to benefit from better connections with London as a result of HS2.
The Chair
Order. May I ask people to speak up? Apparently, the translators could not hear what you said, David. Could you repeat it and speak up?
David T. C. Davies
Sorry, Mr Davies; that is not normally a problem I suffer from. Network Rail has said to us that it believes north Wales will benefit greatly from the better connections with London that will come about as a result of HS2.
Ben Lake
Rwy’n ddiolchgar iawn i’r Gweinidog am ei ymyriad. Mae Plaid Cymru wedi cydnabod o’r cychwyn cyntaf y byddai rhai o welliannau HS2—pe baen nhw’n cael eu gwireddu yn llawn, wrth gwrs—yn fuddiol i ogledd Cymru. Ond os edrychwn ni at Gymru yn ei chyfanrwydd, mae’r adroddiad a gomisiynwyd gan y Trysorlys ei hunan yn dangos y bydd colled net o £150 miliwn y flwyddyn mewn allbwn economaidd. Mae’n rhaid i ni ystyried yr effaith mae hyn yn ei gael a bod y Trysorlys yn gostwng y ffactor cymaroldeb a’r gwariant ar gyfer yr Adran Drafnidiaeth yn y datganiad cyllid.
Dyna pam rwyf am annog Aelodau yma heddiw i wrando ar argymhelliad y Pwyllgor Materion Cymreig y dylai HS2 cael ei adnabod fel prosiect sy’n buddio Lloegr yn unig. Fe fyddwn i’n mynd yn ymhellach, ac annog pobl i gefnogi datganoli cyfrifoldeb dros y rheilffyrdd i Senedd Cymru. Yn wir, yn ôl Canolfan Llywodraethiant Cymru, pe byddai’r cyfrifoldeb hwn eisoes wedi ei ddatganoli i Gymru, byddai buddsoddiad ychwanegol o hanner biliwn o bunnoedd wedi bod rhwng 2011 a 2020.
Enghraifft arall o ddiffyg yn y setliad presennol yw triniaeth yr Undeb o Ystad y Goron yng Nghymru. Er gwaetha’r ffaith y datganolwyd rheolaeth Ystad y Goron i’r Alban yn 2017, mae San Steffan yn cadw rheolaeth dros yr ystad yng Nghymru. Mae hyn yn golygu bod refeniw o adnoddau naturiol Cymru yn cael ei drosglwyddo i’r Trysorlys yn hytrach nag aros yn y cymunedau lle cânt eu cynhyrchu. Ddoe, fe welon ni bod Ystad y Goron yr Alban wedi cwblhau ei arwerthiant diweddaraf o hawliau gwely’r môr i ddatblygwyr ynni gwynt. Trwy 17 o brosiectau, mae’r Alban wedi sicrhau bron i £700 miliwn ac wedi denu consortiwm byd-eang o ddatblygwyr i fuddsoddi ymhellach yng nghadwyn gyflenwi yr Alban. Er bod ein hadnoddau adnewyddadwy ni yn llai yng Nghymru, dangosodd y rownd ddiweddaraf o arwerthiannau yr hyn sy’n bosibl yn ein hadnodd ynni gwynt morol. Gwelwyd gwerth portffolio morol Cymreig Ystad y Goron yn cynyddu’n sylweddol o tua £50 miliwn i dros £500 miliwn.
Mae Plaid Cymru wedi gwthio ers tro am ddatganoli Ystad y Goron ac rwy’n falch cael dweud bod y cytundeb cydweithredu rydym wedi’i gyrraedd gyda Llywodraeth Lafur Cymru yn cynnwys sicrhau ei ddatganoli fel prif amcan.
(Translation) I am grateful to the Minister for his intervention. Plaid Cymru has recognised from the very outset that HS2 improvements, if they were fully realised, would be beneficial to north Wales. For Wales in its entirety, however, the report commissioned by the Treasury shows that there will be a net loss of £150 million a year in economic output. We have to consider the impact all of that, and the fact that the Treasury depleted the comparative factor for Department for Transport expenditure in the finance statement.
That is why I encourage Members to listen to the Welsh Affairs Committee recommendations that HS2 be recognised as a project that benefits only England. I would go a step further and encourage people to support the devolution of responsibility for the railways to the Senedd. According to the Wales Governance Centre, if that responsibility had already been devolved to Wales, there would have been additional investment of half a billion pounds between 2011 and 2020.
Another flaw in the current settlement is the treatment in the Union of the Crown Estate in Wales. Despite the fact that control of the Crown Estate was devolved to Scotland in 2017, Westminster retains control of the Crown Estate in Wales, meaning that revenue from natural resources in Wales is transferred to the Treasury rather than remaining in Wales. Yesterday, the Crown Estate in Scotland completed its latest sale, with 17 projects that will bring in £700 million, and attracted a global consortium of investors to invest further in supply in Scotland. Even though our renewable resources are fewer in Wales, that latest round of sales shows what is possible in our marine energy. Welsh Crown Estate marine energy increased in value from £50 million to more than £500 million.
Plaid Cymru has pushed for some time for the devolution of the Crown Estate, and I am pleased to say that the agreement we have reached with the Labour Welsh Government includes devolution as one of its main objectives.
Ben Lake
The right hon. Gentleman raises an important point. Simply put, I think we will see quicker action. When action is taken, we can realise some of the abundant potential we have on the coast of his wonderful constituency in south-west Wales. We will see those benefits being retained closer to the community that he represents and closer to the communities in which the revenues are generated.
Rydw i’n brysur rhedeg allan o amser, felly wnai beidio cymryd unrhyw ymyriadau pellach, ond hoffwn sôn am ddwy broblem arall sydd yn codi o’r setliad presennol. Yr un pennaf yw’r hon sy’n ymwneud â’r system gyfiawnder. Tra bod cyfiawnder yn Lloegr, yr Alban a Gogledd Iwerddon wedi’i hintegreiddio yn llawn i bolisïau cynhenid y gwledydd hynny, yng Nghymru, cedwir pwerau dros gyfiawnder yn San Steffan. Dywedodd y Comisiwn ar Gyfiawnder yng Nghymru, dan arweiniad yr Arglwydd Thomas, nad oedd unrhyw sail rhesymegol i’r sefyllfa presennol a bod y sgil effeithiau yn rhai anffodus dros ben.
Rydym eisioes wedi clywed gan yr Aelod anrhydeddus dros Caerdydd Canolog bod tangyllido cronig gan San Steffan mewn gwasanaethau cyfiawnder wedi golygu bod Cymru wedi gorfod llenwi’r bwlch a adawyd gan yr Undeb. Ond yn waeth na hyn, gwelwn fod polisïau San Steffan wedi cyfrannu at lefelau anghynaladwy o garcharu a olygai yn 2019 bod gan Gymru y cyfraddau carcharu uchaf yng ngorllewin Ewrop. Mae’r setliad cyfansoddiadol presennol, felly, wedi methu mewn dyletswydd sylfaenol: y dyletswydd hynny i sicrhau mynediad teg a chyfartal i gyfiawnder. Gan ddod i’r casgliad unfrydol bod pobl Cymru ar eu colled yn y system bresennol, argymhellodd y comisiwn yn 2019 y dylid datganoli cyfiawnder deddfwriaethol llawn ynghyd â phwerau gweithredol i Gymru. Fel dywedodd y Comisiwn Thomas, yn eithaf huawdl yn fy marn i:
“Mae angen gwell system ar bobl Cymru, ac maent yn haeddu hynny.”
Nid ynys yw cyfiawnder a dylid ei integreiddio â pholisïau ar gyfer Cymru gyfiawn, deg a llewyrchus.
Mi wnaf i ysgubo trwy ambell i ddarn o’m haraith, ond hoffwn ddweud bod Plaid Cymru wedi croesawu ers tro ymrwymiad rhethregol y Llywodraeth hon i ddatblygu economi Cymru a’i chefnogi i fod yn gydradd â gweddill y Deyrnas Unedig. Wrth wneud hynny, rydym yn disgwyl i’r Llywodraeth ddatganoli pŵer i ffwrdd o’r Trysorlys, sicrhau bod penderfyniadau a gweithredu yn digwydd yn nes at ein cymunedau, a bod eu rhethreg yn gyfateb i’r cyllid caiff ei glustnodi ar gyfer y dasg.
Mae’n rhaid i mi gyfaddef, serch hynny, bod yna eisioes rheswm i boeni na chaiff yr addewidion lu eu gweithredu, ac yn hytrach fod anghydraddoldeb rhanbarthol yn rhan annatod o economi a phenderfyniadau sefydliadol gwladwriaeth y Deyrnas Unedig. Er enghraifft, yn Llundain mae cynhyrchiant ac enillion rhwng traean a hanner yn uwch na chyfartaledd y Deyrnas Unedig, yn ôl yr Institute for Fiscal Studies. Yng Nghymru, mae ein cynhyrchiant o leiaf 15% yn is na chyfartaledd y Deyrnas Unedig ac enillion bron 40% yn is nag yn Llundain. Yng Ngheredigion, mae’r gwerth ychwanegol gros lleol y pen bron i 37% yn is na chyfartaledd y Deyrnas Unedig. Gwelwn, wedyn bod buddsoddiad mewn ymchwil, sy’n allweddol i sbarduno arloesedd a chynhyrchiant gwell, wedi ei ganolbwyntio ers tro yn Llundain a de-ddwyrain Lloegr, gyda gwariant y pen yn 2019 yn rhyw £577: mwy na dwywaith y swm cyfatebol i Gymru.
Nid mewn termau economaidd yn unig y mynegir yr anghydraddoldeb hwn. Gwelwn goruchafiaeth Llundain a’r de-ddwyrain ym mhob man, o argaeledd ac ansawdd cysylltiadau trafnidiaeth i gefnogaeth i amgueddfeydd ac orielau. Ystadegyn syfrdanol oedd bod gwariant y pen ar ddiwylliant yn Llundain rhwng 2010-11 a 2017-18 gymaint â £687 y pen—bron i bum gwaith cyfartaledd gweddill Lloegr, heb sôn am Gymru. I’r pant y rhed y dŵr, fel y dywed yng Ngheredigion.
Cyn cloi, rwy’n troi at yr argyfwng presennol o ran costau byw. Rydym yn gwybod eisioes bod sefyllfa Cymru yn un eithaf bregus yn y maes hwn, ac ar ben popeth, nawr mae’n rhaid i deuluoedd ledled Cymru wynebu argyfwng y costau ynni nad yw Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Unedig wedi gwneud dim i fynd â’r afael ag ef hyd yn hyn. Mae’r diffyg yma yn cael effaith ofnadwy ar Gymru, lle mae 11% o aelwydydd yn byw mewn tlodi tanwydd a’r ffigwr ar fin gwaethygu. Yn anffodus, nid yw bod yn rhan o’r Undeb wedi ein hinswleiddio rhag yr argyfwng yma. Nid problem tymor bir fydd hi chwaith. Datgelodd y Gyllideb Prydeinig mai dim ond rhyw 0.8% y flwyddyn y disgwylir i incwm gwario gwirioneddol aelwydydd ledled Prydain dyfu dros y pum mlynedd nesaf. Roedd incwm gwario gros yng Nghymru yn gyfateb i ond tua 80% o gyfartaledd y Deyrnas Unedig yn 2019, sef yr ail isaf ar draws Prydain, felly mae’n syndod nad oes gweithredu ar fyrder yn digwydd tuag at y perwyl yma.
Yn olaf, ar ôl sôn am sefyllfa’r economi ar hyn o bryd, rhaid hefyd inni edrych tuag at y dyfodol. Yn fyr iawn, o ran polisi masnach, caf i ddim amser i fynd i berfedd y peth heddiw, ond yr hyn ddywedaf yw y pe bai gan Unoliaethwyr unrhyw fwriad i ddiogelu dyfodol yr Undeb, byddent yn ymrwymo ar unwaith i’r egwyddor bod rhaid i Lywodraeth y Deyrnas Unedig geisio cael cytundeb y Seneddau datganoledig cyn arwyddo cytundebau masnach newydd.
(Translation) I am running out of time, so I will not take further interventions. I want to briefly talk about two problems that arise from the current settlement. The predominant one relates to the justice system. While justice in England, Scotland and Northern Ireland is fully integrated into the policies of those countries, powers for justice in Wales are retained in Westminster. The Commission on Justice in Wales led by Lord Thomas stated that there was “no rational basis” for the current situation and that the knock-on effects were extremely unfortunate.
We have heard from the hon. Member for Cardiff Central that chronic underfunding by Westminster of justice services has meant that Wales has had to fill the gap left by the Union. Even worse, Westminster policies have contributed to unsustainable levels of incarceration and have meant that in 2019 Wales had the highest levels of incarceration in western Europe. The constitutional settlement has failed in its fundamental duty—the duty to ensure fair and just access to justice. Coming to the unanimous conclusion that the people of Wales are missing out in the current settlement, the 2019 commission stated that full legislative powers for justice should be devolved to Wales. As the Thomas commission stated quite eloquently, in my view,
“The people of Wales both need and deserve a better system.”
Justice should be integrated into policies for a just, fair and prosperous Wales.
Plaid Cymru has for some time welcomed the rhetoric of the Government on developing the economy of Wales and supporting it to be equal to the rest of the United Kingdom. In doing so, we expect the Government to devolve power away from the Treasury and ensure that decisions and actions take place closer to our communities. Their rhetoric should correspond to the finance earmarked for the task.
I must admit, though, that we already have reason to be concerned that those promises will not be fulfilled and that, instead, regional inconsistency and inequality will be part of the state of the United Kingdom. According to the Institute for Fiscal Studies, productivity and earnings are between one third and a half higher than the UK average. In Wales, production is at least 15% lower than the UK average, and earnings are almost 40% lower than in London. In Ceredigion, local gross value added per capita is almost 37% lower than the UK average. Investment in research, which is key to propelling better productivity, has focused for some time on London and south-east England, with investment per capita around £577, which is more than twice the equivalent sum for Wales.
It is not only in economic terms that these inequalities can be expressed. We see the supremacy of London and the south-east everywhere, from the availability and quality of transport connections to support for museums and galleries. An astounding statistic is that expenditure on culture per capita between 2010 and 2017-18 was as much as £687 in that region—almost five times the average of the rest of England, let alone Wales. Money follows money.
Before I conclude, I will turn to the current crisis around living costs. The situation in Wales is quite fragile in this regard. On top of everything else, families across the whole of Wales now have to face the crisis around energy costs that the UK Government have done nothing to deal with so far. This flaw is having an awful impact on Wales, where 11% of households live in fuel poverty—a figure that is about to deteriorate further. Unfortunately, being part of the Union really has not insulated us from this crisis. It is not a short-term problem, either. The UK Budget expressed that real household income was expected to grow by 0.8% over the coming five years. Gross household expenditure in Wales only corresponded to 80% of the average for the UK in 2019—the lowest across Britain—so it is surprising that there has been no urgent action taken towards this issue.
Finally, after talking about the situation of the economy at the moment, we must also look towards the future. I will not have time to go into the detail of trade policy today, but I will say that if Unionists had any intention of safeguarding the future of the Union, then they would take action immediately on the principle that the UK Government have to seek agreement with the devolved Governments before they sign any new trade agreements.
Ben Lake
In a moment, very briefly.
Cyhyd ag y byddwn yn rhan o’r Undeb, rhaid iddi fod yn Undeb gyfartal, ac mae’n bryd i’r polisi masnach adlewyrchu hyn.
(Translation) As long as we are part of the Union, it has to be an equal Union. It is about time that trade policy reflects that.
Simon Hart
I know we have raised this before, but the hon. Gentleman has avoided talking about the fiscal deficit. We can have an argument about it; it is worth something like £15 billion. If he is going down that road, perhaps he would at least treat the Committee to what his vision of the tax regime would be under the arrangements that he suggests. He seems to have rather conspicuously avoided what that would actually mean for families and businesses in Wales.
Ben Lake
I am grateful to the Secretary of State for that intervention. I only wish he had intervened earlier in the debate, when I might have had time to entertain him with some of my thoughts. All I would point out before closing is that, to my knowledge, I do not think the British state has run a surplus for many years in the past century, so if a deficit is good enough for the UK Government, why not for the Welsh Government?
I gloi, os ystyriwn holl diffygion y setliad cyfansoddiadol presennol, oes syndod o gwbl bod y rhai sy’n teimlo’n angerddol ynghylch yr Undeb mor bryderus i’w chryfhau? Mae Cymru yn haeddu gwell, yn fy marn i, ond does dim dwywaith y bydd rhaid i’r Undeb newid os fydd hi am oroesi. Y cwestiwn i’r Aelodau hynny sy’n ei chefnogi yw: ydyn nhw o ddifri amdani ac yn barod i wneud y newidiadau angenrheidiol hynny i sicrhau ei goroesiad? Neu a fyddan nhw, drwy eu hystyfnigrwydd, yn selio ffawd eu Hundeb annwyl?
(Translation) In conclusion, if we consider all the shortcomings of the current constitutional settlement, is it any surprise or wonder whatsoever that those who feel passionately about the Union are so concerned about strengthening it? Wales deserves better. There is no question but that the Union will have to change if it is to survive. The question for those Members who support it is: are they serious about it and are they ready to make the necessary changes to enable and ensure the Union’s survival—or will they be sealing the fate of their dear Union?
Beth Winter
Sorry, but I will not give way.
Mae enghreifftiau eraill o’r Llywodraeth Dorïaidd yn diystyru hawliau pobl Cymru a’i Llywodraeth ddatganoledig yn cynnwys y Mesur Cenedligrwydd a Ffiniau, sy’n tanseilio dyhead Cymru i fod yn genedl—
(Translation) There are other examples of the Tory Government disregarding the rights of the people of Wales and their devolved Government, including the Nationality and Borders Bill, which undermines Wales’s desire to be a nation—
Simon Hart
Will the hon. Lady give way on a very important point? I hope she will at least acknowledge that Rhondda Cynon Taf—her own local authority— was one of the major recipients of funding in the latest round. She should withdraw or at least qualify the comments that she made about the financial arrangements favouring Conservative seats. She needs to look at the statistics and possibly come back to the Committee with a correction.
Beth Winter
I disagree, sorry. All the local elected representatives are clear about the reduction in funding and the terrible impact that that has had on our constituents. If the Government looked at the research, it will confirm what I say.
Felly nid yn unig y mae’r Llywodraeth hon yn benderfynol o anwybyddu a chael gwared ar Lywodraethau datganoledig, mae’n benderfynol o danseilio ein hawliau democrataidd yn llwyr. Rydyn ni ar bwynt peryglus, yn fy marn i, o ran democratiaeth a datganoli. Nid yw diwygio cyfansoddiadol a datganoli yn faterion anghysbell, ymylol. Mae arnom angen system lle mae’r pedair gwlad yn cael eu trin yn gyfartal, nid system o’r top i lawr fel yr hyn sydd yna ar hyn o bryd. Dylai pob rhan o’r Deyrnas Unedig gael ei hariannu’n briodol ac yn deg, heb fod angen bowlen gardota pryd bynnag y bydd anghenion ychwanegol yn codi.
Dylid gwneud penderfyniadau gwleidyddol a gwariant mor agos â phosibl at y bobl y maent yn effeithio arnynt. Ni allwn ganiatáu i’n pwerau gwario gael eu cymryd i reolaeth ganolog. Bydd yn atal Llywodraethau datganoledig a lleol rhag mynd ar lwybrau gwahanol economaidd sy’n bodloni amcanion polisi cyhoeddus rhanbarthau a chenhedloedd y Deyrnas Unedig. Mae angen i ni gydio yn y cyfle ac archwilio a thrafod opsiynau sydd o’n blaenau ac ystyried beth sydd orau i bobl Cymru.
Yn arbennig, mae angen i ni ymgysylltu â’r holl bobl a chymunedau lleol a’u cynnwys yn y drafodaeth a’r ddadl ar yr hyn y mae datganoli yn ei olygu iddynt hwy a’r hyn a welwn fel ein dyfodol. Bydd y comisiwn cyfansoddiadol a benodwyd yn ddiweddar yng Nghymru yn gyfle i godi proffil y ddadl hon a fydd yn cynnwys cymaint o bobl â phosibl.
(Translation) Not only are this Government intent on getting rid of devolved Governments, but they are determined to undermine our democratic rights. We are at a dangerous point for democracy and devolution. Constitutional changes and devolution are not distant matters. We need a system whereby all four countries are treated equally, not the top-down system that currently exists. All areas of the UK should be funded appropriately and fairly without having to beg when additional needs arise. Any political decisions on funding should be made as closely as possible to the people they affect. We cannot allow our spending powers to be taken under central control. That will prevent devolved and local governments from going down different economic paths to satisfy regional public policies and different nation policies.
We need to grab the opportunity to investigate and discuss the opportunities ahead and to consider what is best for the people of Wales. In particular, we need to interact with all our local communities and include them in the discussions and debates on what devolution means for them at the moment and what they see as our future. The constitutional commission that was recently appointed in Wales will be an opportunity to raise the profile of this debate and include as many people as possible.
David T. C. Davies
A yw’r Foneddiges anrhydeddus, fel aelod o’r blaid Lafur, yn gyfforddus gyda’r ffaith bod y comisiwn wedi dweud eu bod nhw’n mynd i edrych ar bob cwestiwn, gan gynnwys annibyniaeth? A yw hi’n hapus, fel cefnogwr yr Undeb, eu bod nhw’n mynd i ystyried hyn?
(Translation) Is the hon. Lady, as a member of the Labour party, comfortable that the commission has said that it is going to look at every question, including the question of independence? Is she happy that it will consider that?
Beth Winter
Diolch am y cwestiwn. Rwy’n hapus bod y comisiwn yn mynd i edrych ar bob posibilrwydd achos penderfyniad pobl Cymru yw e beth fydd y dyfodol i Gymru. Does dim problem gyda fi ynglŷn â hynny. Mae’r comisiwn ei hun yn cynnwys trawstoriad eang o gymdeithas Cymru gan gynnwys academyddion ac undebwyr llafur yn ogystal â gwleidyddion ac mae ganddynt feddwl agored, fel rydych chi wedi dweud, o ran beth y gallai’r argymhellion fod yn y dyfodol. Mae angen i ni drawsnewid y Deyrnas Unedig yn bartneriaeth wirfoddol o genhedloedd sy’n gyfartal ac yn ddemocrataidd lle mae pobl yn teimlo eu bod wir yn gallu cymryd rheolaeth yn ôl.
Os ydym yn wleidyddion er mwyn cynrychioli buddiannau mwyafrif y bobl, mae angen gweledigaeth o fath gwahanol o wlad: un sy’n seiliedig ar degwch, a rhoi pobl cyn elw, ac sy’n datganoli pŵer gan roi cyfoeth, cyfle a phŵer yn nwylo pobl a chymunedau lleol.
Mae’n hen bryd ein bod ni’n cael y drafodaeth hon am ddyfodol yr Undeb oherwydd mae’n ymwneud â democratiaeth, ynglŷn â sut yr ydym yn llunio ein dyfodol a chymryd rheolaeth yn ôl, rhoi llais i’r rhai yr ydym yno i’w cynrychioli a gweithio ochr yn ochr gydag eraill i greu dyfodol tecach, gwyrddach ledled y Deyrnas Unedig sy’n cydnabod ac yn parchu gwahaniaeth ac felly’n wirioneddol ddiwallu anghenion pobl Prydain.
(Translation): Thank you for the question. I am happy that the commission will look at every possibility, because it is the people of Wales who should decide the future of Wales, so I have no a problem with that.
The commission itself comprises a wide cross-section of Welsh society, including academics and labour unions as well as politicians, and they have an open mind as to what the recommendations could be in the future. We need to transform the UK into a voluntary partnership of nations that are equally democratic and where people feel that they can really take back control. If we are politicians to represent the interests of the majority of the people, there needs to be a different vision of a country, based on fairness, putting people before profit and devolving powers, thus giving wealth, opportunities and power into the hands of local communities.
It is high time we had this discussion about the future of the Union, because it is to do with democracy and how we form our future and take back control, to give voice to those we are here to represent and work hand in hand with others to create a fairer, greener future across the UK that recognises and respects differences and therefore satisfies the needs of the people of Britain.