Strengthening the Union as it Relates to Wales (First sitting)

Beth Winter Excerpts

Tuesday 18th January 2022 General Committees

[Stephen Crabb]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Davies, although it does mean that we will not benefit from a contribution from you to today’s debate. I will start by commending the Secretary of State on calling this meeting of the Welsh Grand Committee. It represents something of a revival, or a resuscitation, of the Committee, given that it looked like it was going to go the way of the Scottish Grand Committee and disappear from parliamentary proceedings quietly into the night. It is a timely moment to have a grand Welsh debate today, given the extraordinary period that we have come through as a nation and given the significant and serious challenges that lie before us. I hope the rest of the debate will be constructive and honest as we address these issues.

The pandemic has tested our nation’s financial and institutional capabilities, and proved a test to our constitution. We should all be able to agree today that, as we emerge from this current phase of the pandemic and hopefully enter a more benign phase, we can agree that the United Kingdom comes out of it with its relevance and importance highlighted more than ever. Contrary to what the Opposition have been primed to say, the fact is that the UK Government got the big calls right all the way through the pandemic. As the Secretary of State has highlighted, there was a period of very fast decision making at the time of uncertain, partial information and evidence. Whether one looks at the decisions around the furlough scheme and business support, the decisions around vaccine development, procurement and roll-out of the vaccines once approved, or at the most recent decisions on how we responded to the omicron variant and the very fine balance that we had to strike just before Christmas, taking precautionary measures but not damaging the economy, which had started to rebound following the earlier lockdowns, the Government’s decision making has been proved broadly correct. I look forward to the future review demonstrating that. The truth is that the UK compares very favourably with nations similar to ours, in terms of how ready we are to move ahead in this better phase of the pandemic, and to continue the economic growth.

[Beth Winter (Cynon Valley) (Lab)]

We have had in excess of 150,000 deaths from covid in this country. It is an absolute disgrace. My constituents in Cynon Valley had the third highest death rate in the UK. How can the right hon. Gentleman say that the UK Government’s decision making during the covid pandemic should be commended when we have had one of the highest death rates from covid in the world?

[Stephen Crabb]

I am sorry to respond to the hon. Member: it is not true that we have the worst covid death rate in the world. The standardised measurement of per 100,000 shows that Britain compares to similar sized nations such as Spain, France and Germany. There are a lot of other countries that have sadly experienced far greater deaths. Every single death is a tragedy, as the hon. Member is right to say. My other point in response is that decisions about public health in Wales were almost wholly the responsibility of the Welsh Government.

The decisions taken at UK level that affected Wales were around the financial architecture of how to support individuals, families and businesses. The public health measures were taken by the Welsh Government. As I will explain, generally the Welsh Government have veered to a tendency for more lockdown rather than fewer, wanting to be stricter, often on very flimsy scientific evidence—as the hon. Lady herself demonstrates in her question, to such little effect.

I draw hon. Members’ attention to the latest jobs data published this morning, with record job vacancies again and the employment picture continuing to improve. That is not what many people predicted for this phase of the pandemic, once the furlough scheme had been unwound. People were predicting a crisis of unemployment, but the truth is that that never happened. What happened was that the UK economy was well placed to rebound strongly last summer and it has continued to create jobs.

That is a really good thing, and it is down to the decision making of the Treasury team, to create that furlough scheme, which meant that there was not a tsunami of business failures and redundancies. Businesses were able to use that as a platform to grow again once the economy had been reopened. We do face challenges: the cost of living is certainly one of them, inflation, energy price hikes and, as revealed in this morning’s data, the fact that wage levels are not keeping pace with the cost of living, which is a serious issue that we need to address.

I reinforce the message of the Secretary of State that, when it came to those big decisions about how to get the country through the economy, the UK Government have been proved right. The Prime Minister continually emphasises the importance of seeing this as the one United Kingdom emerging from the pandemic. He is always incredibly polite and careful in his remarks about the Welsh Government and the First Minister. Even in private, when we coax him to say something critical about the Welsh First Minister, he is always incredibly polite, when sometimes we would like him to be stronger.

He is doing that in a genuine spirit of teamwork. That reflects well on the Prime Minister: he genuinely wants to foster a team UK ethos, respecting the fact that the Welsh Government have a different set of competences and have the freedom to take different decisions about public health protection measures. He is genuinely trying to foster an atmosphere of team UK.

--- Later in debate ---

[Beth Winter]

Diolch yn fawr, Mr Davies, am y cyfle i siarad heddiw, ac am y cyfle i siarad yn Gymraeg.

Rydyn ni’n trafod cwestiwn yr Undeb Prydeinig, ac fel pob undeb arall, mae’r nerth yn dod o dderbyn a pharchu gwahaniaethau, gan gynnwys iaith, diwylliant a gwleidyddiaeth. Mae’r cyfarfod Pwyllgor heddiw yn ddigwyddiad amserol i ni, gyda’r cytundeb cydweithio a gyhoeddwyd yn ddiweddar rhwng y blaid Lafur a Phlaid Cymru i ddod â pholisïau radical i fodolaeth yng Nghymru, gan roi buddiannau pobl Cymru o flaen llinellau plaid cul. Roeddem yn gallu gwneud hyn yng Nghymru, a’i wneud mewn ffordd ystyrlon, oherwydd bod ein harweinwyr gwleidyddol yn deall eu bod wedi’u hethol i wasanaethu buddiannau’r bobl y maent yn eu cynrychioli ac nid am unrhyw reswm arall.

Hefyd, ein hanes sydd wedi’n gwneud ni fel yr ydym.  Mae gan Gymru draddodiad o hanes radical, o godi’r faner goch gyntaf ar gomin Hirwaun, drws nesaf i’r pentref lle rwyf i’n byw, Penderyn, yn ystod oes y Siartwyr, hyd at sefydlu’r gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol. Y traddodiad hwn sydd wedi ysbrydoli Llywodraeth Cymru i ddatblygu polisïau o safon mwy uchelgeisiol na’i chymar yn San Steffan: er enghraifft, diogelu’r gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol fel gwasanaeth mewn eiddo cyhoeddus, ac ein hymateb gofalus yn y Senedd i covid. 

Senedd ddatganoledig Cymru oedd y gyntaf yn y byd i basio argyfwng hinsawdd. Yn ddiweddar, mae’r Senedd wedi sefydlu Gweinidogaeth ar newid yr hinsawdd. Roedden ni’n gyntaf gyda Deddf Llesiant Cenedlaethau’r Dyfodol (Cymru) 2015, ac yn ysbryd y ddeddfwriaeth honno, pasiodd Llywodraeth Cymru Fesur yn caniatáu i bobl 16 ac 17 mlwydd oed bleidleisio yn etholiadau Cymru. 

Mae Cymru hefyd yn helpu i arwain y ffordd o ran datblygu economi gynhwysol, sylfaenol, yn bennaf gan ddefnyddio dull partneriaeth gymdeithasol i hyrwyddo gwaith teg. Mae hyn wedi’i wneud yn erbyn cefndir o ddiffyg cyllid digonol. Mae dros 10 mlynedd o lymder creulon wedi tynnu £1.6 biliwn o gyllidebau cynghorau Cymru, ac mae fy awdurdod lleol, Rhondda Cynon Taf, wedi colli dros £90 miliwn. Nid yw fformiwla Barnett ar gyfer cyfrifo cyllid Cymru yn addas, nac yn ddigonol, i ddiwallu anghenion Cymru. Felly, rydyn ni’n dal i ddioddef y problemau tlodi, amddifadedd ac anghydraddoldeb y mae gweddill y Deyrnas Unedig yn eu hwynebu.

Bydd yr argyfwng costau byw yr ydym i gyd yn ei wynebu yn ergyd drom i bobl Cymru. Gwyddom oll eisoes am bobl yn ein hetholaeth sy’n gorfod dewis rhwng bwyta neu gynhesu. Bydd y sefyllfa yn galetach eleni wrth i realiti polisïau’r Torïaid, fel y toriadau lles, y costau tanwydd cynyddol, a’r cynnydd mewn yswiriant gwladol a ddaeth yn sgil y Llywodraeth Dorïaidd hon, ein taro. Nid yn unig nad yw’r Llywodraeth Dorïaidd hon yn poeni am neu’n deall anghenion pobl fel ein hetholwyr, maent yn rhoi’r gwaith da a wnaed hyd yma gan Lywodraeth Cymru i ddiogelu gwasanaethau a datblygu ein heconomi mewn perygl difrifol wrth iddynt symud i ganoli pŵer a thanseilio’r setliad datganoli. Amlygir hyn gan y Ddeddf Marchnad Fewnol y Deyrnas Unedig 2020, ac ar hyn o bryd, y gronfa codi’r gwastad, fel y’i gelwir. Ni fydd yn syndod bod y rhan fwyaf o’r cyllid lefelu wedi mynd i etholaethau a ddelir gan y Torïaid yng Nghymru. O’i gymharu â chyllid yr Undeb Ewropeaidd, roedd yn gyfraniad gwarthus.

(Translation) Thank you very much for the opportunity to speak, Mr Davies, and to do so in Welsh. We are here to discuss the question of the Union. Like all other unions, its strength comes from accepting and respecting differences, including in language, culture and politics. The Committee meeting is a timely event for us with the collaborative agreement announced between Plaid Cymru and Welsh Labour to bring radical policies into existence in Wales, putting the interests of the people of Wales before narrow party lines. We can do this in Wales, and in a meaningful manner, because our political leaders understand that they have been elected to serve the interests of the people they represent and not for any other reason.

Our history has made us as we are. Wales has a tradition of radical history, from raising the first red flag—on Hirwaun common, next to the village where I live now, Penderyn—during the time of the Chartists, to establishing the national health service. This tradition inspires the Welsh Government to develop policies with more ambitious standards than we see here in Westminster, including safeguarding the NHS as a public service; the Senedd’s careful response to covid.

The devolved Senedd in Wales was the first in the world to declare a climate emergency, and recently established a Ministry on climate change. The Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 was also a first. In the spirit of that legislation, the Welsh Government passed a Bill to permit 16 and 17-year-olds to vote in Welsh elections.

Wales is also helping to lead the way in developing an inclusive, foundational economy, predominantly using a social partnership approach to promote fair work. That has been done against the background of a lack of adequate funding. More than 10 years of cruel poverty has pulled £1.6 billion out of Welsh council budgets, and my local authority, Rhondda Cynon Taf, has lost over £90 million. The Barnett formula is not appropriate or adequate to meet the needs of Wales. We therefore continue to suffer the problems of poverty, deprivation and inequality that the rest of the United Kingdom faces.

The cost of living crisis that we all face will hit the people of Wales hard. We already know of people in our constituencies who have to choose between eating and heating, and the situation will be even harder this year as the reality of Tory policies, such as the welfare cuts, the increasing cost of fuel and the national insurance increase hit us. Not only do the Tory Government not care about and fail to understand our constituents’ needs, but they have put the good work of the Welsh Government to safeguard services and develop our economy in serious jeopardy as they move to centralise power and undermine the devolved settlement. That is manifest in the United Kingdom Internal Market Act 2020 and also in the so-called levelling-up fund. It is no surprise that the majority of the levelling-up funding has gone to constituencies held by Tory Members in Wales. Compared with European funding, it is a shameful contribution.

[Robin Millar (Aberconwy) (Con)]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

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[Beth Winter]

Sorry, but I will not give way.

Mae enghreifftiau eraill o’r Llywodraeth Dorïaidd  yn diystyru hawliau pobl Cymru a’i Llywodraeth ddatganoledig yn cynnwys y Mesur Cenedligrwydd a Ffiniau, sy’n tanseilio dyhead Cymru i fod yn genedl—

(Translation) There are other examples of the Tory Government disregarding the rights of the people of Wales and their devolved Government, including the Nationality and Borders Bill, which undermines Wales’s desire to be a nation—

[Simon Hart]

Will the hon. Lady give way on a very important point? I hope she will at least acknowledge that Rhondda Cynon Taf—her own local authority— was one of the major recipients of funding in the latest round. She should withdraw or at least qualify the comments that she made about the financial arrangements favouring Conservative seats. She needs to look at the statistics and possibly come back to the Committee with a correction.

[Beth Winter]

I disagree, sorry. All the local elected representatives are clear about the reduction in funding and the terrible impact that that has had on our constituents. If the Government looked at the research, it will confirm what I say.

Felly nid yn unig y mae’r Llywodraeth hon yn benderfynol o anwybyddu a chael gwared ar Lywodraethau datganoledig, mae’n benderfynol o danseilio ein hawliau democrataidd yn llwyr. Rydyn ni ar bwynt peryglus, yn fy marn i, o ran democratiaeth a datganoli. Nid yw diwygio cyfansoddiadol a datganoli yn faterion anghysbell, ymylol. Mae arnom angen system lle mae’r pedair gwlad yn cael eu trin yn gyfartal, nid system o’r top i lawr fel yr hyn sydd yna ar hyn o bryd. Dylai pob rhan o’r Deyrnas Unedig gael ei hariannu’n briodol ac yn deg, heb fod angen bowlen gardota pryd bynnag y bydd anghenion ychwanegol yn codi.  

Dylid gwneud penderfyniadau gwleidyddol a gwariant mor agos â phosibl at y bobl y maent yn effeithio arnynt. Ni allwn ganiatáu i’n pwerau gwario gael eu cymryd i reolaeth ganolog. Bydd yn atal Llywodraethau datganoledig a lleol rhag mynd ar lwybrau gwahanol economaidd sy’n bodloni amcanion polisi cyhoeddus rhanbarthau a chenhedloedd y Deyrnas Unedig. Mae angen i ni gydio yn y cyfle ac archwilio a thrafod opsiynau sydd o’n blaenau ac ystyried beth sydd orau i bobl Cymru.

Yn arbennig, mae angen i ni ymgysylltu â’r holl bobl a chymunedau lleol a’u cynnwys yn y drafodaeth a’r ddadl ar yr hyn y mae datganoli yn ei olygu iddynt hwy a’r hyn a welwn fel ein dyfodol. Bydd y comisiwn cyfansoddiadol a benodwyd yn ddiweddar yng Nghymru yn gyfle i godi proffil y ddadl hon a fydd yn cynnwys cymaint o bobl â phosibl.

(Translation) Not only are this Government intent on getting rid of devolved Governments, but they are determined to undermine our democratic rights. We are at a dangerous point for democracy and devolution. Constitutional changes and devolution are not distant matters. We need a system whereby all four countries are treated equally, not the top-down system that currently exists. All areas of the UK should be funded appropriately and fairly without having to beg when additional needs arise. Any political decisions on funding should be made as closely as possible to the people they affect. We cannot allow our spending powers to be taken under central control. That will prevent devolved and local governments from going down different economic paths to satisfy regional public policies and different nation policies.

We need to grab the opportunity to investigate and discuss the opportunities ahead and to consider what is best for the people of Wales. In particular, we need to interact with all our local communities and include them in the discussions and debates on what devolution means for them at the moment and what they see as our future. The constitutional commission that was recently appointed in Wales will be an opportunity to raise the profile of this debate and include as many people as possible.

[David T. C. Davies]

A yw’r Foneddiges anrhydeddus, fel aelod o’r blaid Lafur, yn gyfforddus gyda’r ffaith bod y comisiwn wedi dweud eu bod nhw’n mynd i edrych ar bob cwestiwn, gan gynnwys annibyniaeth? A yw hi’n hapus, fel cefnogwr yr Undeb, eu bod nhw’n mynd i ystyried hyn?

(Translation) Is the hon. Lady, as a member of the Labour party, comfortable that the commission has said that it is going to look at every question, including the question of independence? Is she happy that it will consider that?

[Beth Winter]

Diolch am y cwestiwn. Rwy’n hapus bod y comisiwn yn mynd i edrych ar bob posibilrwydd achos penderfyniad pobl Cymru yw e beth fydd y dyfodol i Gymru. Does dim problem gyda fi ynglŷn â hynny. Mae’r comisiwn ei hun yn cynnwys trawstoriad eang o gymdeithas Cymru gan gynnwys academyddion ac undebwyr llafur yn ogystal â gwleidyddion ac mae ganddynt feddwl agored, fel rydych chi wedi dweud, o ran beth y gallai’r argymhellion fod yn y dyfodol. Mae angen i ni drawsnewid y Deyrnas Unedig yn bartneriaeth wirfoddol o genhedloedd sy’n gyfartal ac yn ddemocrataidd lle mae pobl yn teimlo eu bod wir yn gallu cymryd rheolaeth yn ôl.

Os ydym yn wleidyddion er mwyn cynrychioli buddiannau mwyafrif y bobl, mae angen gweledigaeth o fath gwahanol o wlad: un sy’n seiliedig ar degwch, a rhoi pobl cyn elw, ac sy’n datganoli pŵer gan roi cyfoeth, cyfle a phŵer yn nwylo pobl a chymunedau lleol.

Mae’n hen bryd ein bod ni’n cael y drafodaeth hon am ddyfodol yr Undeb oherwydd mae’n ymwneud â democratiaeth, ynglŷn â sut yr ydym yn llunio ein dyfodol a chymryd rheolaeth yn ôl, rhoi llais i’r rhai yr ydym yno i’w cynrychioli a gweithio ochr yn ochr gydag eraill i greu dyfodol tecach, gwyrddach ledled y Deyrnas Unedig sy’n cydnabod ac yn parchu gwahaniaeth ac felly’n wirioneddol ddiwallu anghenion pobl Prydain.

(Translation): Thank you for the question. I am happy that the commission will look at every possibility, because it is the people of Wales who should decide the future of Wales, so I have no a problem with that.

The commission itself comprises a wide cross-section of Welsh society, including academics and labour unions as well as politicians, and they have an open mind as to what the recommendations could be in the future. We need to transform the UK into a voluntary partnership of nations that are equally democratic and where people feel that they can really take back control. If we are politicians to represent the interests of the majority of the people, there needs to be a different vision of a country, based on fairness, putting people before profit and devolving powers, thus giving wealth, opportunities and power into the hands of local communities.

It is high time we had this discussion about the future of the Union, because it is to do with democracy and how we form our future and take back control, to give voice to those we are here to represent and work hand in hand with others to create a fairer, greener future across the UK that recognises and respects differences and therefore satisfies the needs of the people of Britain.