Strengthening the Union as it Relates to Wales (First sitting)

Hywel Williams Excerpts

Tuesday 18th January 2022 General Committees

[The Secretary of State for Wales (Simon Hart)]

I beg to move,

That the Committee has considered the matter of strengthening the Union as it relates to Wales.

I welcome you to the Chair, Mr Davies. I know you would love to make a longer contribution, but sadly on this occasion we will be denied that particular pleasure. This is the first Welsh Grand Committee for some time, and it is a huge pleasure to introduce it. I welcome colleagues. Another cause of celebration is that it coincides with the birthday of my hon. Friend the Member for Brecon and Radnorshire—as if there were not enough to enjoy about today’s proceedings, we can add that to our list.

The country is talking of other political matters at the moment, but I want to spend my time this morning talking about the UK Government’s achievements in Wales, why the Union matters and why, thankfully, three out of four voters at the last opportunity still supported Unionist parties in Wales. In a week when apologies are on everyone’s lips, I will be making no apologies for this being the most active and engaged UK Government in Wales for the last 20 years; no apologies for standing up, when necessary and forced, to a Welsh Government who sometimes seem to enjoy all the responsibility but little of the accountability when it comes to Welsh matters; no apologies for taking a very proactive approach to covid and recovery, particularly in our economic interventions; and no apologies at all for delivering what 54% of the people of Wales voted for back in 2016, despite numerous efforts by some of our political opponents to reverse, delay or deny what happened in that referendum.

I will start with a reference to the Union—I make no apologies for my Unionist credentials, either. Sometimes, our attitudes as politicians of the Union can be wilfully misrepresented. For me, the Union is not a political movement or party; it is not instead of national identity, but as well as it. We all know that it is perfectly possible—we see it among our constituents all the time—to be patriotic and enthusiastically champion everything that is Welsh, but at the same time to recognise the value of the Union. How often have we all heard, even in Plaid Cymru seats, people say, “I’m passionately Welsh but I’m also British”?

In my mind, the question is not, “Could Wales survive on its own?”. An accusation that is occasionally, and sometimes legitimately, levelled at us—because of the manner in which we have sometimes constructed our arguments—is that we are suggesting that Wales could not survive on its own. I have never subscribed to that view. However, I have always asked, if Wales was to survive on its own, what would be the economic, social and cultural cost of taking that step? My attitude to the Union is one of respect, but it is also one of reality—of wanting to take a really detailed look at some of the more complex areas of the debate, around defence, currency, intelligence, security and international trade.

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

Will the Secretary of State give way?

[Simon Hart]

If I could get into my stride and warm up a bit before I take interventions, I would be very grateful.

The question for today is, “What have the UK Government delivered for Wales while covid has been the dominant news story?”. I will not share it with hon. Members because it would take far too long, but I have two and a half pages of very varied, but very significant, achievements that the Government have been able to deliver—sometimes in collaboration with the Welsh Government, sometimes not. For example, £121 million has been directly invested through the first round of the levelling-up fund. The diversity of this is worth noting.

The Government have increased the Army footprint in Wales, the only part of the UK that saw an increase—from 6.7% to 7.3%. The Queen’s Dragoon Guards will return to Wales, to Caerwent, in the constituency of the Under-Secretary of State for Wales, my hon. Friend the Member for Monmouth. There will be a new reservist unit in the constituency of Wrexham. We are saving Brecon barracks—such an important part of the social and economic heartlands of the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Brecon and Radnorshire. We put £30 million into developing the first centre for rail excellence, which is between Port Talbot and Brecon, and will create 150 direct jobs.

The small ruminant rule has been lifted. Who would have ever thought that the small ruminant rule would play such a significant part in our lives? The lifting of it, which is enabling Welsh lamb to be marketed in the United States for the first time in nearly 25 years, is a significant moment for our farming industry. With the Welsh Government and the First Minister, we set up the coal tip safety taskforce—jointly chaired by the First Minister and me—securing £31 million for the Tylorstown tip and creating the first register of coal tips and their safety in Wales. No doubt there will be more on that.

There are other things, too: the £4.8 million investment in Holyhead hydrogen hub, and accelerated funding for the Cardiff city, Swansea bay, north Wales and mid Wales city and growth deals. The mid Wales growth deal, worth £55 million, was signed by the Under-Secretary of State for Wales, my hon. Friend the Member for Monmouth only last week. We have invested £31.9 million to develop electric propulsion systems in Cwmbran, and there is Wales-specific funding through the British Business Bank of £130 million. I could—and I will—go on, and I know my hon. Friend will go on later.

There is lots to say, and it is all positive, imaginative and innovative. It is all about jobs—sustaining existing jobs and creating new jobs as we come, we hope, out of the pandemic for the last time. Probably the best example of the strength and value of the Union is the way in which we have been able to join forces with so many people in our pandemic response. I could go through a long list, but hon. Members should cast their minds back to the furlough scheme: one in three jobs in Wales was protected, at very short notice, by the might of the UK Treasury.

--- Later in debate ---

[Simon Hart]

May I give way to the hon. Member for Arfon before coming to the hon. Member for Llanelli?

[Hywel Williams]

Dwi’n ddiolchgar iawn i’r Ysgrifennydd Gwladol am ildio. Ar nodyn hanesyddol, byddai Lloyd George yn dweud nad oedd yn dweud llawer o ddim byd am y pum munud cyntaf, er mwyn caniatáu i’r Siambr lenwi, wrth gwrs. Credaf bod hyn yn esiampl. Tra mae wrthi yn gwneud y diolchiadau, ydy’r Aelod gwir anrhydeddus am restru nid yn unig y buddion sy’n dod o’r Undeb, ond hefyd y costau? Hefyd, i Aelodau anrhydeddus yn ystod y dydd, a yw’r Llywodraeth am nodi yr hyn yr ydym yn ei golli o fod yn yr Undeb?

(Translation) I am grateful to the Secretary of State for giving way. On a historical note, Lloyd George used to say that he did not say much for the first five minutes, to allow the Chamber to fill up, of course. I believe this is an example. While the right hon. Gentleman is expressing his thanks, will he list not only the benefits but the costs of the Union? Will the Government also note for hon. Members throughout the day what we lose from being part of the Union?

[Simon Hart]

I could not catch the hon. Gentleman’s question, partly because I could not get the headset to work at that speed, but the Under-Secretary of State for Wales passes on the fact that it is about the cost of the Union. Perhaps, when the hon. Member for Arfon is able to make his contribution, he will be able to expand on his arguments. As I will come to later in my speech, the value of the Union is what really matters as far as we are concerned. As I mentioned earlier, if any kind of coherent argument is to be made against the Union, it needs to be made in the context of its value rather than necessarily its cost.

I will mention one thing that always baffles me about the Plaid Cymru approach to the Union. For the last four and a half years, we have heard endlessly, relentlessly and somewhat tiresomely about the fact that Wales could not possibly survive outside the European Union; we have been reminded endlessly that our economic health has depended on our membership of it. The nation of Wales happened to take a different view from the hon. Gentleman, but I would love to know why he thinks that it is possible to survive outside the UK when apparently it is impossible to survive outside the EU.

[Hywel Williams]

Will the Secretary of State give way?

[Simon Hart]

I am not going to give way again, because I said that I would give way to the hon. Member for Llanelli.

--- Later in debate ---

[Ben Lake (Ceredigion) (PC)]

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Mr Davies. Mae’n bleser i wasanaethau dan eich cadeiryddiaeth chi a hefyd i wneud hynny drwy’r Gymraeg heddiw.

Rwy’n croesawu teitl y ddadl heddiw oherwydd ymddengys ei fod e’n cydnabod bod yna ddiffygion yn yr Undeb yn ei bresennol wedd a bod angen ei gryfhau er mwyn gwasanaethu pobl Cymru yn well. Felly mae gennym gyfle i drin a thrafod gwendidau polisïau’r Llywodraeth Brydeinig, ond hefyd efallai y cawn gyfle i ystyried y llwybrau sy’n agored i’n cenedl wrth i ni edrych tua’r dyfodol. Mae un llwybr wedi’i osod ar seiliau bregus y setliad cyfansoddiadol presennol, gwaddol cyfuniad anffodus o echdynnu economaidd ac ymyleiddio gwleidyddol. Mae’r llwybr yma’n gofyn i ni israddio ein hadnoddau a’n huchelgeisiau fel cenedl er mwyn gwasanaethu blaenoriaethau’r Undeb yn lle, a derbyn nad oes modd gwella ar y status quo.

Y llwybr arall, a bydd neb efallai’n cael syndod o glywed hyn, y llwybr yr hoffwn i ac—efallai bydd hyn yn syndod i rai pobl—yr hoffai nifer gynyddol o bobl ledled Cymru ei gymryd, yw’r llwybr sy’n arwain at annibyniaeth—llwybr llawn cyfle sy’n gofyn i ni ddyheu am ffyrdd tecach a mwy cynhwysol o lywodraethu, ond yn bwysicaf oll, yr her i gymryd y cyfrifoldeb dros wireddu hynny dros ein hunain.

Rwyf am ganolbwyntio fy sylwadau heddiw ar feysydd allweddol y dylai rhai sy’n credu yn yr Undeb weithredu arnynt ar fyrder os ydynt am gryfhau’r Undeb fel y mae teitl y ddadl yn crybwyll, oherwydd ar hyn o bryd, gwelwn eu bod nhw’n prysur danseilio’r berthynas rhwng cenhedloedd ynysoedd Prydain.

Yn fy marn i, mae problemau’r Undeb ar ei wedd bresennol yn deillio yn syml iawn o adeiladwaith diffygiol. Gwelwn Undeb rhwng sawl cenedl a rhanbarth yn cael ei ddominyddu gan un genedl ac un Senedd. Mae’r fath oruchafiaeth yn golygu y caiff hawliau a chyfrifoldebau’r cenhedloedd eraill eu hanwybyddu yn aml. Mae anghymesuredd y setliadau datganoli gwahanol ond yn gwaethygu’r sefyllfa, ond does dim awgrym bod gan y rhai sydd am weld dyfodol i’r Undeb unrhyw fwriad, na hyd yn oed awydd, i ddiwygio’r setliad cyfansoddiadol presennol er mwyn mynd i’r afael â’i ddiffygion.

Ystyriwch am eiliad sut y mae San Steffan wedi canoli grym yn gynyddol yn Whitehall ers Brexit, ac wedi ceisio uno gwledydd Prydain trwy orfodaeth yn hytrach na meithrin y cydweithrediad hynny rhwng ei Llywodraethau. Mae ond angen i ni edrych ar Ddeddf y Farchnad Fewnol 2020 neu’r Bil Rheoli Cymorthdaliadau am enghreifftiau o hyn. Mae’r ddau wedi cael eu gorfodi ar Gymru. Yn wir, wrth gyfeirio at yr ail fesur hwnnw, dywedodd Gweinidog Cyllid Llafur Cymru:

“Er gwaethaf awgrymiadau gan Lywodraeth y DU bod ymgysylltu manwl wedi’i gynnal, nid yw’r Bil ond yn adlewyrchy buddiannau cul Llywodraeth y DU.”

Pan wrthododd y Senedd y cynnig cydsyniad deddf-wriaethol, anwybyddodd San Steffan ei gwrthwynebiad yn llwyr. Felly yn hytrach na chydweithio, yr hyn a welwn yw deddfwriaeth sy’n tanseilio’n uniongyrchol alluoedd y gwledydd datganoledig i wella bywydau pobl yng Nghymru.

(Translation) It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Davies, and to be able to do so through the medium of Welsh.

I welcome the title of today’s debate, because it appears to recognise that there are shortcomings in the Union in its current format and that there is a need for it to be strengthened in order to serve the people of Wales better. We have an opportunity to deal with the weaknesses of the UK Government’s policies, and perhaps an opportunity to consider the pathways that are open to our nation as we look to the future. One pathway is clearly set on the vulnerable foundations of the current constitutional settlement, with an unfortunate situation of political leadership. This pathway requires us to lower our ambitions, to follow the Union’s principles, and to accept that we cannot continue with the status quo.

The other pathway, which perhaps nobody will be surprised to hear is the pathway that I and an increasing number of people in Wales and the UK would like to take, leads towards independence, an opportunity to look for fairer and more comprehensive ways of governing and, most important, the challenge of taking responsibility for realising that for ourselves.

I will focus my comments on the key areas that those who believe in the Union should take strong action on as a matter of urgency if we are to strengthen the Union, as the title of the debate suggests, because at the moment, we can see that they are undermining the relationship between the nations of the British isles.

In my view, the problems of the Union in its current format emanate from a flawed structure. We are dominated by one nation and one Parliament, and such supremacy means that the rights and responsibilities of the other nations are frequently being disregarded. An imbalance in the different devolution settlements exacerbates the situation, but there is no suggestion that those who want to strengthen the Union have any intention or desire to reform the current constitutional settlement in order to address the flaws in it.

Consider for a moment how Westminster has increasingly centralised power in Westminster since Brexit and sought to unite the nations of Britain by enforcement, rather than nurturing collaboration between its Governments. We need only to look at the United Kingdom Internal Market Act 2020 and the Subsidy Control Bill, both of which are being forced on Wales. Indeed, referring to the second piece of legislation, the Welsh Labour Finance Minister said:

“Despite suggestions from the UK Government that detailed engagement has been undertaken, the Bill only reflects the narrow interests of the UK Government.”

When the Senedd rejected the legislative consent motion, Westminster disregarded its opposition. Rather than collaboration, what we see is legislation that directly undermines the abilities of the devolved nations to improve the lives of people in their countries.

[Hywel Williams]

Onid ydy hyn yn codi allan o ryw ddryswch sylfaenol sy’n cael ei arddangos gan y Llywodraeth ac, yn wir, gan yr Wrthblaid swyddogol? Hynny yw, eu bod nhw’n aml iawn yn cymysgu buddiannau Prydain a Lloegr. Dw i’n meddwl y gwnaethon ni glywed Aelod anrhydeddus dros De Clwyd yn nodi hynny gynnau, pan ddywedodd o “Llywodraeth Lloegr”. Does yna’r un!

(Translation) Does not this situation arise from a fundamental confusion on the part of the Government and, indeed, the official Opposition? That is, they often confuse the interests of Britain and England. I think we heard the hon. Member for Clwyd South indicate as much when he referred to the “English Government”. There is no English Government.

[Ben Lake]

Rwy’n ddiolchgar iawn i’m Ffrind anrhydeddus am ei sylwadau. Yn wir, rwy’n un o’r rheiny sy’n credu’n fawr y byddai’r Undeb, os ydyw e am barhau tuag at y dyfodol, yn buddio’n llwyr o gael Llywodraeth i Loegr a Senedd i Loegr, oherwydd ar hyn o bryd does dim sefydliad o’r fath yn bodoli ac mae’n rhaid i’r Senedd Brydeinig a’r Llywodraeth Brydeinig wisgo dwy het. Rwy’n bell o fod yn berffaith, ond rwy’n credu ei bod hi’n anodd iawn i unrhyw Lywodraeth gyfiawnhau dwy swydd mor bwysig ar yr un pryd.

(Translation) I am grateful to my hon. Friend for those comments. I am one of those who strongly believes that the Union, if it is to continue in the future, would really benefit from there being a Government and a Parliament for England. At the moment, there is no such institution, and the UK Government and Parliament have to wear two hats. Despite the fact that I am far from perfect, I think it is difficult for any Government to justify two such important jobs at the same time.

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[Simon Baynes]

The polls come and go, but the essence of what I am saying is that we are delivering a constructive and particular project. I have tried to focus on my own constituency, so that my remarks are not generalised but particular. In a part of Wales that has been left behind and has significant deprivation, the UK Government are stepping in where the Welsh Labour Government should have been for decades.

I would like to finish on the remarks of my right hon. Friend the Member for Preseli Pembrokeshire (Stephen Crabb). He referred to the way in which the Welsh Government are playing a dangerous game consorting with the nationalist cause. As someone who grew up in Wales and has lived there most of my life, I think the value of the Union is of huge importance. It is extremely dangerous that the Welsh Labour party is not providing the support, vigour and representation for that cause.

[Hywel Williams]

First, may I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on winning Clwyd South? He, myself and the Prime Minister have stood there, but the hon. Gentleman is the only won who has ever won. I invite him to say, or perhaps not say, that co-operation between us and the Labour party to bring forward a large number of positive policies—46 points in the agreement—is not necessarily damaging to the Union.

[Simon Baynes]

I am pleased that I am the one of the trio who made it across the line in Clwyd South. I have every respect for the hon. Gentleman as a Member of Parliament and a vigorous representative of his constituents. With regard to his point about the programme put forward jointly by the two parties, it is important that there is clear accountability for Plaid Cymru in that arrangement. It strikes me that they are trying to have their cake and eat it by supporting the Government but not being quite part of them, and not being willing to be held to account for what they are doing. There needs to be clarity in how they operate and what they are trying to do.

To go back to my right hon. Friend the Member for Preseli Pembrokeshire, the Labour party in Wales needs to be clear whether it is really supporting the Union, or whether political expediency is allowing it to blur the line. There are two particular quotations that its members have come up with recently: they have called the UK nothing more than “an insurance policy” and said that support for the existence of the UK “is not unconditional”. Welsh Labour needs to be clear about where it stands on the Union, to the benefit of everybody across Wales.