Westminster Hall is an alternative Chamber for MPs to hold debates, named after the adjoining Westminster Hall.
Each debate is chaired by an MP from the Panel of Chairs, rather than the Speaker or Deputy Speaker. A Government Minister will give the final speech, and no votes may be called on the debate topic.
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Mr Khalid Mahmood (Birmingham, Perry Barr) (Lab)
I commend my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston (Preet Kaur Gill) for making such an eloquent speech and raising all those figures. I also commend my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Erdington (Jack Dromey), who secured the debate. Owing to his position as a shadow Minister, he is unfortunately not able to take part.
This is a crucial debate to my constituents and the people of Birmingham. We have people who live in fear. In my constituency, gangs maraud around with knives, baseball bats, sticks, machetes and, in some instances, guns. The police are called, but they are not able to attend because they need sufficient numbers for such an event, which I understand.
There is a business in my constituency. A group of young people got together and opened a car wash. They do not employ labour from abroad; they wanted to do it themselves and make a living for themselves. For some reason, they were set upon by a gang—probably because they did not want them to open the business where they had. They made several complaints to the police themselves. Nobody turned up. A week later, when the father approached me and spoke to me, they still had not come. I made enquiries and the police were not able to visit those young people, who wanted to better their lives and their local environment.
It is not the fault of the police officers who work in my area. They work extremely hard—fantastically hard—but they do not have the numbers. As my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston says, the West Midlands PCC is working extremely hard to increase numbers. It is important to heed the words of the PCC. If they do not have the officers to do the work, it is difficult to do the work. That is what the problem is.
I have a fantastic sergeant working in my constituency, Nick Hill. He came in as a breath of fresh air in my patch. He is available literally all the time. He comes to community events. He wants to engage, to the extent that we were able to set up a police drop-in at a local church on a Tuesday afternoon, so that people who could not get through to the police on the phone or by other mechanisms could come and see the police and report things. That is a fantastic initiative.
We have some local police officers who are doing a fantastic job. On my own security, Nick has been fantastic. If I tell him where I am holding surgeries, he tries his best to support me. We all have to think about our position and our safety, particularly since the tragic incident of Sir David Amess. That is an additional requirement for the police. More issues are being added to the list for the police to address.
There are also issues within the policing structure. The Home Office has said that more officers need to have a degree to work on the streets.
Mr Mahmood
Well, that is what I am being told—that police officers need to have a degree to be able to work. A lot of recruits have been taken in. I know about four recruits who have come into my constituency as police officers who have come in through the degree mechanism, and there are others who have been told they need to complete degree qualifications in order to move on, which removes them from the limited number of police we have. There are some people who want to be on the street, who want to do policing, who have the qualification, who want to build connections within the community and deliver those services. What we want are police officers who understand local communities and know what is going on.
In another policing debate, I mentioned a PCSO in my area who was a member of the Labour party, and joined the police, so he cannot deliver leaflets for me any more. Rob Capella has done fantastic work. He has been there almost 20 years now. He is recognised by the community. Less so now, because he has less of a team to operate, but he used to go on the streets to understand and speak to people. He was a huge resource as the eyes and ears of the police, working in the community, and that gleaned great intelligence. We can only do that if we have sufficient numbers of police.
Before 2010, we used to have neighbourhood meetings. We would get police there. We would get PCSOs there. We would get people speaking to them in Perry Barr. My hon. Friends here will understand that, in Perry Barr, where we have Handsworth, Lozells and Aston, there have been significant issues with policing and crime. Before 2010, we had some of the lowest crime rates across the country. We did only one thing: increase the police. We had more PCSOs in those areas, and we delivered for the community.
People in the Asian community have a huge issue in terms of robberies that are taking place. Most people understand that it is a traditional practice to have gold jewellery, particularly for weddings and those sorts of events. Those things have been targeted specifically, and damage has been done to buildings and to people. We need more police officers, and we will achieve that only if, on Thursday, we look at the police settlement for the west midlands and listen to the PCC, who is working hard to ensure that we get more police officers. It is the only way to deal with crime. That is what Margaret Thatcher said—to give an example of someone the Minister may look up to. The only way to police is to ensure that there is sufficient policing in the community. If we do not have sufficient police in the community, it is not safe for them or for my constituents. My plea is that West Midlands police get their fair share of the police officers required to give our communities peace of mind and to have law and order in our city and my constituency.
The Minister for Crime and Policing (Kit Malthouse)
As always, Sir Edward, it is a joy to appear before you, and it was great to hear the speech from the hon. Member for Croydon Central (Sarah Jones)—I think it was 3a this time. I have heard it a number of times before. [Interruption.] I am sorry; they are all broadly the same.
I often find these debates a bit disheartening. They make me wonder how many years will have to pass before Labour Members stop constantly using the refrain “austerity”. It is almost 12 years ago that that necessary corrective financial action was taken, and I hope that in time, Opposition Members will mature beyond looking back over a decade for the impact that they are seeing today. Even if they do not, wouldn’t it be nice if any argument about austerity were presaged by an apology for crashing the economy—for the Labour Government that ran it hot, allowed the banks to take dreadful risks, ran down the country’s reserves and then almost bankrupted the country, ushering in a coalition Government who had to take difficult financial decisions? [Interruption.]
Kit Malthouse
I have never shied away from those difficult financial decisions that have to be taken. Nevertheless, generations will pass, and maybe in 50 years the Labour party will stop talking about that period of austerity and talk about what is happening today. Today, I thought I was coming to a debate about the value of neighbourhood policing. However, it has become obvious that this is a pretty naked political manoeuvre in advance of some difficult financial decisions that the police and crime commissioner for the west midlands will have to make as he moves towards setting his council tax. My hon. Friend the Member for Dudley North (Marco Longhi) has highlighted how significantly council tax has increased over the past few years.
Most of the hon. Members present are experienced parliamentarians. As such, they all know that the funding formula is set in law, and when the police settlement is announced later this year, it will be divvied up between the forces as per the legislation. There is nothing we can do, discretionarily or otherwise, to change that; the funding formula has been in place for some time. We have acknowledged that it is elderly, as I have said at the Dispatch Box—the hon. Member for Croydon Central has heard me say it many times. We are working on a replacement, and we hope to have one in place soon. Nevertheless, this year, as hon. Members know perfectly well, the police settlement will be settled on the basis of that legislation, so the social media posts, tweets and videos that Members put out will be promoting to the public a misapprehension that something could change before later this week, when the police settlement will be announced.
Beyond that, I find these debates a bit disheartening because of the lack of curiosity exhibited by Members about the performance in the west midlands. For example, they never ask themselves why other police forces are doing better. Why is Liverpool doing better than the west midlands? Why is Humberside doing better than the west midlands? They point to the reduction in police numbers in the west midlands and the fact that the numbers at the end of the uplift may not be above where they were in 2010, but they do not ask themselves why there are forces, such as those in Kent and London, where those numbers will be higher than in 2010.
Several hon. Members rose—
Kit Malthouse
I will give way in a moment. Those Members are unwilling to acknowledge the reason, which is that decisions were made by the previous Labour police and crime commissioner that set the west midlands back. They have to take responsibility for those decisions; they cannot, I am afraid, just come to this Chamber and keep saying that everything that goes wrong in the west midlands is the Government’s fault, and that everything that goes right is the Labour party’s achievement. Nobody is buying that in Edgbaston, Selly Oak, or anywhere else in the west midlands. They recognise that difficult decisions had to be made, and I urge the Labour party to acknowledge those difficult decisions.
David Jamieson was not all good, and he was not all bad. He had difficult things to do, and he made a set of choices that produced a particular outcome and a particular baseline in the west midlands. I have no doubt that that was what he said in the elections that he won, and that the people of the west midlands took him at his word and believed him. They have re-elected a Labour police and crime commissioner, so presumably they are happy with that performance, but complaining that everything that goes wrong is down to the Government seems a little naive to me.
Sarah Jones
Knife crime has gone up in every single part of England and Wales.
Sarah Jones
It is true. I can send the Minister the statistics. Crimes have gone up across the country. It is not accurate to blame one area or another for those universal increases and the universal drops in prosecution. Of course, there are good police forces and less good police forces, and everyone tries their best. The point we are trying to make is that we are 1,000 police officers down, which means neighbourhood policing will suffer. On the point made by the hon. Member for Dudley North (Marco Longhi) about the police station, I should have mentioned that the police and crime commissioner is waiting for the Conservative council to sell them the land to build the police station. Perhaps we could talk about that later.
Kit Malthouse
I understand the hon. Lady’s point, but it is unfair and pulling the wool over the eyes of the people of the west midlands not to stand by the fact that a Labour police and crime commissioner—or any other police and crime commissioner elected, presumably —has an impact on the force. The decisions they make must have some implication for the way the force is run and its finances.
Several hon. Members rose—
Kit Malthouse
I have taken an intervention already; I will take another in a minute. It is extremely important for the confidence that people need to have in the west midlands that that is acknowledged. This was a different period financially for the country; people had to take difficult decisions. The west midlands made a certain matrix of decisions that resulted in the outcome today. A number of forces around the country made different decisions. As a result, they will have more police officers than they had in 2010. That is something with which hon. Members will have to wrestle; I am afraid that is the plain truth.
On neighbourhood policing, I am pleased to hear that there is a thrust in the west midlands to invest in neighbourhood policing, not least because the neighbouring Staffordshire force has been doing that for some years, to great effect. The police and crime commissioner and the former chief constable there took the decision to invest in neighbourhood policing and, interestingly, traffic policing, as the basic building blocks of an excellent delivery of service to their people. As a result, they saw significant reductions in neighbourhood crime. My hon. Friend the Member for Dudley North referred to the uplift number, which is 800-odd. I encourage exactly that kind of intervention. It is what lies behind our desire to expand the number of police officers in the country.
Difficult decisions had to be taken over the previous decade—you were part of the team that took those difficult decisions, Sir Edward, as a member of the party in power at the time—but the economics of the country now allow us to invest in policing in the face of changing crime.
Tahir Ali
Will the Minister explain why £175 million has been taken from west midlands policing since 2010, resulting in 2,200 fewer officers on the street? Giving back 800 officers does not replace the 2,200 lost. There is a deficit of 1,600. Can the Minister please explain?
Kit Malthouse
I am sorry if the hon. Gentleman missed it, but as I explained earlier, his predecessors blew the credit card and broke the bank in the country. Difficult decisions needed to be made, and the police and crime commissioner David Jamieson made a certain set of decisions about how he and the chief constable were going to prioritise spending.
The hon. Member for Croydon Central is probably tired of hearing this, but I was Deputy Mayor of London for policing between 2008 and 2012. We faced precisely the same budgetary challenges as the west midlands. It was extremely difficult; we had a £3.5 billion budget, and in two years I had to take something like 10% out of it, which is an enormous cut, but we chose to prioritise police officer numbers. We fought tooth and nail to maintain those police officer numbers above 31,000, and we were successful in doing so. As a result, our crime performance was better. That was also because of the tactics we pursued; it is not all about numbers.
Different decisions were made by police and crime commissioners during that period, and that has resulted in different outcomes for each of the forces. It would be foolish and, to be honest, financially illiterate, not to recognise that. We can see that in police forces’ reserves position, in the disposition of the property portfolio, and in the balance between police staff and police officer numbers. Every year, police and crime commissioners, who preside over all those things, have to produce a result from that quite complicated combination.
Marco Longhi
Can the Minister help me out with a point made by the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Croydon Central? Dudley Council is ready to sell the land right now if the police and crime commissioner decides to sign the contract. Also, planning permission is not contingent on property ownership. This is about local decision making. We could shorten the long time that it would take to get planning permission and get things going now.
Kit Malthouse
Sir Edward, I feel like a Foxtons representative here, negotiating a property deal across the Chamber. How dynamic we can be when we put our minds to it.
There is significant extra funding going into policing, and there has been over the last two years. We now have a three-year funding settlement that gives us an enormous uplift in resources. For the west midlands, that means £655.5 million next year, which is an increase of £35.1 million. That is a very large increase, and I hope the west midlands spends it well. We can all agree that neighbourhood policing is a significant priority, and that we would like more investment in it. It is welcome that the police and crime commissioner is doing that in the west midlands.
We agree that the funding formula is out of date and a little old fashioned. It has not been reviewed for some time, and we are working on a replacement. I have given an undertaking at the Dispatch Box that we expect to hold that review before the next election, assuming that Parliament runs its full term. Finally—I will give the hon. Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston (Preet Kaur Gill) time to wind up—there has been much debate about what position the 20,000 police officers will put us in. Hon. Members make all sorts of claims about where we will be. They forget that in the final year of the Theresa May premiership, there was a recruitment drive for 3,500 police officers; that can be added to the number as well. When we get to the end of the 20,000 uplift, we will, I think, have the highest number of police officers the country has ever had.