Baroness Uddin
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is the evidential basis of their policy of promoting English language classes for women to address isolation and extremism.
Baroness Uddin (Non-Afl)
My Lords, I wish to express my gratitude to the Table Office staff for their constant support and courtesy. Indeed, I am indebted to all noble Lords for taking part.
I was delighted to learn that we would be able to debate some of the latest excitement about the lives of Muslim women. As one myself, I cannot but feel momentarily flattered to be bestowed with the responsibility of eradicating all social ails in our lives, including the global phenomena of sexism and terrorism. I so wish that collectively we can be a part of the solution that makes our world free of fear of terror on our streets, just as I wish for the safety and future security of all our children. However, there has to be some equity in that collective responsibility, and the current inflammatory narrative on every minutia about Islam, particularly defining women of faith through the narrow prism of repressed objects, is baseless and damaging in the long term.
Even today, 43 years later, I can recall all too vividly the rawness of experiencing racism and Islamophobia as we went about our ordinary lives. My experience is not at all unique. Just as we are asking who speaks English, we should also enquire about the prejudice and barriers we face—as Muslim women in particular but as Muslims in general—and, more importantly, how so many hundreds of thousands of Muslims have overcome the barriers of prejudice and hatred and made our home in Britain. We would find that we were able to overcome brazen racists on the streets of the East End, the West End, Scotland, Wales and elsewhere, as did my family and countless others, because of the strength and resilience of our faith.
My four brothers and I—all five of us—and my mother, who was a teacher in Bangladesh, learned functional English by the end of the first year of being here, but incidents of hate and disdain never end and new and uglier faces of bigotry and prejudice are always emerging, culminating in the ever-increasing number of Islamophobic incidents we have today. My point is that the ability to integrate and embrace shared values is almost never just about speaking English.
I have lived and worked with women in all walks of life and if I say in that time I have spoken to hundreds of thousands of women, it would be no exaggeration. Given that I cannot claim a monopoly of wisdom on Muslim women, I have recently instituted a structured and informal series of round-tables with community leaders and professionals from all backgrounds and geographical localities, with a purpose to assess the current landscape of work in progress, to map out the good practice and to find out what else we can do together in order to respond to many of the national and global challenges our generation faces.
The latest onslaught on Muslim women has angered many of those participants. We believe that, in essence, this on-the-hoof policy-making disregards the countless number of Muslim women who have struggled to better their families, their community and this country. Some of their successes should be made equally visible when making reference to Muslim women in the UK.
Will the Minister agree to meet some of the women I have been speaking to as part of an upcoming fairness commission on Muslim women in the UK, which I am pleased to be leading? I would also welcome a walk with the Minister, or any Minister, down the streets of the East End, the West End, the north or south of England, Scotland or Wales, where the evidence speaks for itself—a myriad of small and large businesses owned by Bangladeshi, Pakistani, Turkish and Somali men and women. If we can put aside our political differences, I am willing to organise a very diverse group of women thinkers and activists, even those I do not agree with.
Consider the thousands of British curry houses, large numbers of which are owned by Bangladeshis, which generate an estimated £4 billion to the economy. Many of these people did not have the fullest command of English, but their unstinting loyalty and values are unchallenged and they have contributed by educating their children, permeating all professional spheres, including many entrepreneurs in a wide range of professions.
Of course, now we have a number of honourable Members contributing to this House and local government offices across our land. I was privileged to be the first Bangladeshi Muslim woman to enter this House of the British Parliament. It pleases me enormously to have supported and encouraged in very small ways the latest batch of able and confident Muslim women in public office, including Rushanara Ali, Rupa Huq and Tulip Siddiq. In fact, Tulip started in my office as a student placement at a very early age—one of many who have gone through my and other offices in Parliament over the past 17 years. Each of these young British Muslim women, like many others, has the ambition to take part in and contribute to Britain’s social, economic and political development.
Opportunities are what make the difference between people choosing to engage or to isolate themselves from the mainstream system. Just as others, Muslim women experience violence, abuse, family pressures and discrimination as they aspire to complete their education and achieve career prospects, yet we know that it is structural obstacles such as gender discrimination and lack of childcare services that limit many potential achievements.
Many hundreds of women’s organisations have suffered drastic cuts. These include Southall Black Sisters, Newham Asian Women’s Project and Jagonari, where funding has been decimated. So the support structures required to empower Muslim women—or any women—through educational independence and so on have been taken away. Visible Muslim women in particular, as a racialised minority, face added discrimination, which proves to be an even greater barrier to climbing the employment ladder once they are educated. Therefore, the question of appropriate English language skills will not resolve the problem of isolation; nor will it provide any clarity on the driving force of radicalisation. But what further separates those women who may need a broader range of support systems is our inclination to isolate them further in the media and elsewhere.
I do not understand where the statement that 22% of Muslim women do not speak English came from. The Runnymede Trust challenges this figure and says that it may be 6%. But these kinds of figures are irrelevant to the main point of my discussion. I can easily demolish the suggested argument that the lack of English-speaking women in some households leads to isolation and extremism. Indeed, it was challenged in the media with great competence by many. I hope that the PM has taken note of the powerful voices that emerged against these disparaging remarks—and they were all women.
It is important that we challenge the narrative frame of the Muslim woman as one who is oppressed by honour killing, strict Islamic rules, domestic violence and incompetence in obtaining English; in fact, many British Muslim women are highly educated, holding qualifications from their countries of origin—as was my mother. If I were to list our general statistics vis-à-vis women in the UK generally, we look as though we are in the dark ages in some corners when it comes to participation, domestic violence and child abuse. Muslim women are part of that same social construct, so of course the problem is going to affect them. The Prime Minister’s approach is therefore far too ambiguous and simplistic, as this policy threatens to erode further the confidence of the many women who are already facing multiple disadvantages.
The current global predicament in dealing with growing and violent conflicts across the globe requires more than learning vocabulary and grammar. It demands of us genuine internal strength to challenge the generations of prejudice and misunderstandings that exist among ourselves. It requires us to acknowledge that we have common values that bind our common purpose for peace and security.
I had the great honour to be present over the last few days in Marrakesh under the patronage of His Majesty King Mohammed, where the Marrakesh declaration was debated regarding the rights of religious minorities in predominantly Muslim communities. One cannot ignore the potent stench of terrorism that has come to our doorstep. To this end, alongside a number of British women, I have been participating in the programme organised by the Forum for Promoting Peace in Muslim Societies, ably led by the much loved and respected scholar Sheikh Abdullah bin Bayyah, whose work is much respected. He said:
“Enough bloodshed. We are heading to annihilation. It is time for co-operation. There is a sickness … in the world, but we have treatments within Islam”.
It is built within Islam to participate in civic society. We are obliged to protect and preserve our identity as Muslims without harming others or risking isolation of certain individuals. He made many such contributions and I commend his work to this House. America and Mr Obama have embraced him. I ask the Minister and her Government to consider inviting Sheikh Bin Bayyah to Britain to meet parliamentarians and policymakers to hear of his good work.
I am confident that the House will agree that fear-mongering and incoherent thinking are not the solution to address the divisions that alienate whole sections of society and certainly cannot aid integration. Will the Minister encourage her department to attend some of these events and meetings with grass-roots organisations to counter the perceived philosophies?
Lord Patten (Con)
I strongly support the developing policy of my right honourable friend the Prime Minister and the Government, despite what the noble Baroness has just said in her thought-provoking speech. It is common sense that isolation is often very painful, however caused. It does not, of course, always cause extremism. Neither is it restricted to women; men also suffer thus, as common sense also indicates. But giving women, whether Roman Catholic Poles or Muslim Pakistanis in the UK, the ability to speak English, or help to ensure that they can, is, in the proper sense of the phrase, a proper feminist issue. No English, no integration. No English, little understanding of the world around—or, indeed, some of the messages that may come from abroad, written in English but aimed at Pole or Pakistani alike. Access to English equals full access to participation in our society.
For any woman, from wherever it may be, if you are—perhaps worst of all—illiterate and also unable to speak our everyday tongue, then you become a member of what is essentially those who are in female internal exile. This can be dangerous for women’s happiness, peace of mind and health—particularly mental health—and can sometimes promote and induce extremism; that is the result. Historically, among the longer-established citizens of the UK, this can manifest itself, on their part, as fear or suspicion of “the other”, which we have seen through the generations and through the centuries. Thinking that anyone belongs to “the other” because they cannot speak English is bad for our social cohesion.
Most of our very welcome immigrants get to grips with speaking English pretty quickly because of economic and social necessity, even if still being perceived as “the other” of their day for a while. Few, however, introduce extremism. The issues that we face today are different in terms of the scale and the potential problem. Threats come from those in the Muslim world who specifically do not concur with the teaching in Islam that attributes to the creator those qualities of being merciful and kind, which are such an important part of that religion. So there is a big qualitative difference between the religious and cultural heritage of welcome Muslim immigrants for many generations in this country and the new ultra-conservative and ultra-violent extreme Wahhabism of the 20th and 21st centuries, made manifest in Daesh today, which reaches deep into the hearts of a few in our own country.
Whether veil-wearing or not—it does not matter at all—if any woman in our often flourishing Muslim community cannot speak English and is perhaps also illiterate, it is indeed common sense that they cannot read or understand the written word or social media that their daughters look at or may read, bring home and understand all too well after schooling in English, which they speak well. That sometimes has incited a tragic number—a small number, but none the less a tragic number—of these children to go off to Daesh in Syria or wherever. That is common sense and needs little research, although I readily understand that more research may well need to be done on ways of trying to combat such messages.
Speaking English is, I think, a fundamental duty—I do not use that word lightly—as well as an attribute for our citizens, whether they are Muslim or not and wherever they come from, be it Poland or Pakistan. So I am a very strong supporter of the Government’s policy of speaking English for all—if we can shorthand it that way—provided always that it is needs driven and that it is colour, religion and creed blind, and that it is available to all. This “speak English” programme of the Government that is being developed is excellent, but it must be built into the very warp and weft of our social stability so that isolationism through language becomes redundant, from whichever group it might spring now or in the future.
Baroness Hussein-Ece (LD)
My Lords, I, too, am a very strong supporter of Muslim women—and men—learning English. It is important for all migrants of all backgrounds, race, creed and religion to learn English, for themselves and for society as a whole. I do not think anyone in this Chamber will argue with that. But my jaw fell open—as did many others—at the statement that some Muslim women who cannot speak English might somehow, in the words of the Prime Minister, become,
“more susceptible to the extremist message that comes from Daesh”.
Where is the evidence for this? I would like the Minister to respond to that point.
I was brought up by my grandmother and my mother. They both spoke little English and I spoke none when I started school. Once I learnt, I was expected to act as an interpreter for adult members of my family when visiting GPs and other places. I know that this still happens, so I welcome greater access to English language classes. But to make the connection between Muslim women not speaking English and extremism, as the Prime Minister did in the Times article, is discriminatory, inflammatory and unhelpful.
I support the intention to break down patriarchal systems, which do exist, but this proposal is an example of how not to succeed in doing that. It is counterproductive and simply stigmatises women who are from a Muslim background. In an article last week in the Independent, an ESOL teacher said that he felt that,
“by selecting Muslims for special criticism Cameron is playing to an Islamophobic gallery. There were 850,000 people in the last census who said that they spoke little or no English”.
Yet the Prime Minister chose to single out Muslims with a figure of 190,000, which many question.
In addition, the Government cut £40 million last year from funding for migrants wanting to learn English. Where is the joined-up policy or strategy in this, when on the one hand you cut and on the other you announce a reinstatement of £20 million to allow women to learn English? The chief executive of the Association of Colleges bore this out when he said that there were,
“2,000 fewer women attending Esol courses in the last year”,
due to cuts. The Woolf Institute, which had a recent commission on religion in public life, said:
“It is extremely unfortunate that the prime minister has chosen to focus solely on Muslim women to make an important point about the integration of immigrants”.
It has asked that this issue be looked at in the round and said that points that apply to,
“immigrants from a wide variety of nationalities … and religions … have been used to associate all Muslims with difficulties associated with integration”.
I agree with my own party leader, Tim Farron, when he says:
“Linking women in the Muslim community who struggle with the English language to home grown extremism only serves to isolate the very people Cameron says he is trying to help”.
Threats of deportation are even more unhelpful.
Where is this policy framed in a way that will attract and positively encourage more women—and men—from all backgrounds to integrate properly, learn the language and become active members of our society? Why are Muslim women being singled out in this way? If the aim was simply to ensure that those women should be encouraged to improve their English language skills and have better access to doing so, surely there were better ways to announce and articulate this as a positive message and aspiration to ensure equality of opportunity for all. How does the Minister think that this debate will need to be reframed in a more positive light?
Lord Kerr of Kinlochard (CB)
My Lords, there are elements in the Prime Minister’s article of 18 January which I could warmly welcome. The encouragement of the empowerment of women and the discouragement of forced gender segregation are greatly to be welcomed and excellent. But there are elements in it which I find really rather shocking. There are three in particular.
First, there is the smear. The idea that a boy brought up in Bradford is more likely to slide into radicalism if his mother is not fluent in English is a smear. What is the evidence for it, as the noble Baroness, Lady Hussein-Ece, has just asked? The evidence I have seen, as it applies to this country, France and Belgium, is that the alienation of young Muslim people who are tempted to find a communal identity in radical Islam is a third-generation problem. It is not a second-generation problem and I find it very implausible that the temptation should be greater if the grandmother cannot speak English. It seems wildly unlikely and, I am sorry, but it is therefore a smear.
Secondly, I am shocked at the threat. Holocaust Memorial Day was yesterday, yet here we have someone in No. 10 writing this article in the Prime Minister’s name—I am sure that he did not write it—and telling people who are entitled to be here, were married here and are bringing up children here, “If you don’t improve your fluency in English, that could affect your ability to stay here”. It is shocking and it was not just a slip of the pen. The No. 10 briefing note makes it clear that there will, from October, be a new language test for those seeking a visa extension after 30 months here. Do we really envisage breaking up families or deporting mothers because they talk Urdu or Bengali at home? Now that really might radicalise their children.
In seeking to defend British values, we must take care not to betray them. John Stuart Mill defined our liberty as,
“doing as we like … without impediment from our fellow-creatures, so long as”,
it,
“does not harm them, even though they should think our conduct foolish, perverse, or wrong”
—exactly so. Toleration, respect for others and minding our own business; respect for those things is the duty of people who live in this country, not a duty to speak any particular language. Forced assimilation and deporting the innocent would betray these principles and risk breeding the very alienation that the Prime Minister is quite rightly anxious to reduce.
My third and last concern is about the scope of the proposed new regime. The Prime Minister’s article speaks only of Muslim women, and of women from Bangladesh and Pakistan, countries which I know well, but the No. 10 note contains no such specification. Would the new regime also apply to people from India, 72,000 of whom received first residence permission in 2014, the last year for which numbers have been published? From China, there were 74,000. Would it apply to them, or to those from Brazil, Japan or Korea? I do not know what answer I want. If the regime of language testing at 30 months and possible deportation thereafter applies to everyone, we risk doing global damage to our reputation as a welcoming, tolerant country, living by John Stuart Mill’s principles. But if it applies only to Muslims, when that becomes the law of the land we shall straightaway—not in 30 months—achieve the further isolation and alienation of the community that is most at risk of radicalisation. I await the Minister’s reply with considerable unease.
Baroness Helic (Con)
My Lords, I welcome this debate and the varied views expressed so far. I support the Government’s determination to prevent some women in our country being held back by a language barrier, and I agree with the Government’s expectation that people who apply to settle permanently in the United Kingdom must be able to speak English to intermediate level. I say this as someone whose mother tongue is not English, as your Lordships may detect on occasion. I have the strongest admiration for the sacrifices made by many mothers from many different backgrounds in our country. They are the unsung heroines of their sons’ and daughters’ successes.
This is a common-sense policy that has unfortunately been caught in a wider debate over security and counterterrorism, but we can all agree that the ability to speak and write English is a basic building block of citizenship. It is the key to understanding and adapting to the culture of the new country. It is crucial to quality of life, equality of opportunity and social mobility. It is surely much harder for women who are unable to speak English to be informed of their rights as British citizens, to access the full range of opportunities to work, and to further their education and have economic independence. There can be no doubt that a lack of English can leave women vulnerable to being isolated, potentially dominated by others and denied new opportunities. This discussion, in my view, applies equally to everyone who finds a home in this country.
As I know and as the Government recognise, it is not only about Muslim women but I understand the logic behind the Government’s policy and welcome the intention to empower all women in our country. I am confident that the Government will listen to and absorb some of the advice they have received on how best to present and implement this policy at a sensitive time. None the less, I would strongly encourage the Government not to be deflected from their intention to empower women. I would add that it is surely time to examine other issues that we sometimes shy away from discussing, for fear of giving offence: such as whether the covering of a woman’s face in the name of religion is compatible with the freedoms and values that are guaranteed in this country. While all these issues are complex, we should have the courage to examine them.
Lord Greaves (LD)
My Lords, I declare my local government interest. This is not an interest as such, but I also inform the House that my wife spent her working career teaching English as a second language, very often to Muslim women, although to lots of other people as well.
This latest controversy seems to be part of a growing number of statements and discussions by persons in prominent positions in public life and the media in which there is an increasing use of what I would call fast-and-loose and dangerous language. For example, the Prime Minister, who really ought to know better, talked some time ago about “swarms” of migrants crossing the Mediterranean. Yesterday, he talked about a “bunch of migrants” at Calais. On this particular issue, he associated Muslim women’s isolation with extremism. This is all part and parcel of a wider tendency that includes the obsession with the niqab and stories about red doors and red, white and blue wristbands for seekers of asylum. This all reflects, it seems to me, a lack of knowledge and understanding by people in prominent positions of communities different from theirs and a lack of respect for other people—not for other Muslims, other women or whatever, but for other people—and a lack of the ability to empathise with people and to respect them before talking about them.
The proposal mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, to test women on spousal visas after two and a half years, with a not-very-hidden threat of removal if they have not improved their English, is quite extraordinary. Someone coming over to get married or to live with their husband will have other things to do in the first two years than to spend a lot of time improving their English. They will be setting up their home and will probably be having their first child, and perhaps their second. Under those circumstances, to then threaten people with removal from the country—I do not know whether they are threatening to remove the children as well—is just extraordinary. It seems almost inconceivable that this would ever happen, but to talk about it has such an effect, and is seen as such a threat, that it is ridiculous.
As noble Lords will know, I live in Pendle, where there have been very successful schemes for more than 40 years specifically targeted at teaching English, originally to Asian ladies, although more recently it has spread to people from other parts of the world. Throughout this time, people have not discovered a reluctance to learn English: people know they need to learn English and they want to learn it. However, over that time, and particularly perhaps in the last 10 years, services have been run down, weakened or abolished. Skilled teachers have gone to get other jobs, sometimes in other places in other parts of the world. There has been a loss of expertise and a loss of the local knowledge of the communities, and the people who these classes are being offered to, which comes with provision of that kind. The main problem now is not that people do not want to learn English but the lack of adequate, professionally provided classes and other provision.
My final point is that the original teaching that took place 40 or 45 years ago was based on home tuition. A whole range of volunteers was found and trained to go and teach English in people’s homes. Then classes outside the home were developed. That resulted in personal friendships which still endure today, yet that is all being swept away.
Baroness Flather (CB)
My Lords, one of the things that worry me greatly is that those who advise the Prime Minister on policy statements such as this do so without checking with anyone who has any experience of ever having taught English as a second language to Muslim women, Indian women or children. I spent 15 years teaching English as a second language. I taught Indian women and Pakistani women, although I did not have any Bangladeshi women because there were none where I lived. It is not a question of Muslim women; it is a question of those who need to be taught. How can we say we are going to teach Muslim women? There are plenty of Indian women who did not know English and probably still do not. There was a misunderstanding in the early days that once the first generation had been to school everyone would speak English. It did not happen like that because marriages were constantly being made on the subcontinent and wives and husbands were coming over, one or other of whom did not speak English. As a result, you took two steps forward and one and a half back. That is still going on: we still have people whose children come to school with very little English or none, so yes, we have to work on English.
I am retired now as I am so old, but when I was a deputy lieutenant I did some citizenship events. Those participating were supposed to have done a test in the English language. They did not take those tests—somebody took them for them. There are no checks to see whether the person is the person they claim to be; there is no way of telling whether or not this Indian lady is the same as the other Indian lady. It is, again, a big scam. There are even professional driving-test takers—particularly in the Southall area, where there are so many Somalis, who look very much alike. We have to be very careful not to bring in these things and just leave them to happen, because they do not happen.
At the end of the 1960s, I taught women who were working. At lunchtime I used to go and teach them in the factories. I also taught them in their homes and started a club where the women and the children came. I taught in Broadmoor, too, so I think I have pretty well covered the whole gamut of people who need to learn English. I feel very strongly, as a lot of your Lordships do, that everyone has to know some English to function properly. They should be able to go to the doctor and should know who they are going to vote for. However, they do not even usually know what a vote is. In my day, they were just told, “Go and put your cross there”.
It is no good saying that everyone should learn English without thinking how it is to be done. It is not easy to teach a woman English who is probably barely literate in her own language. Not only is she barely literate but she is very frightened of having to cope with this new language. I produced a teaching scheme that I still believe is the only one that can work with women, because I created it by teaching women. As I went along, I saw how they learnt, and then produced the scheme. Unfortunately, they gave it to a person who had produced their own teaching scheme to assess it, who obviously was not going to assess it as being useful, but I would be very pleased to show my teaching scheme to any of your Lordships interested in seeing it. It is a simple distillation of the essentials, but it is done in such a way that you can build on it constantly. After learning the first part you can just about function, and after that it is up to you how far you want to build on it. This is a very specialised area, especially when it comes to teaching women.
I know I am running out of time, but my last point is that Muslim women are ill-served in two ways. One is the discrimination against them, but the other is their treatment within the community. We must never forget how badly they are treated in their own community, and the advent of sharia is something to be fought against. I have spoken to the Home Secretary about my fears and maybe some changes will come.
The Earl of Courtown (Con)
I am sorry to interrupt the noble Baroness but it is time for her to sit down.
Lord Sheikh (Con)
My Lords, at the outset I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Uddin, for initiating this debate. The Prime Minister’s announcement has proved controversial in some circles, but I agree that people who cannot speak adequate English will experience difficulties. They will find it difficult to integrate into communities and into British life more widely.
With particular regard to the British Muslim community, I agree that speaking English is crucial, particularly in the light of recent tensions. I have previously stated in your Lordships’ House that I would like to see mosques and Muslim centres become more than just places of worship. I would like to see more of them used as paths towards integration. Mosques and Muslim centres would like to play a greater role by hosting English language courses, but some of them may need financial assistance. I have personally supported mosques and centres in these activities.
I believe that the Muslim community should be more proactive in dispelling misapprehensions about Islamic values. If women cannot speak English, they cannot contribute to this. I think it is important to clear up some confusion. From my experience, a lot of second-generation Muslims in fact speak only English. This includes a number who actually have little knowledge of their mother tongue. Some youngsters are radicalised, but there are a number of factors other than lack of English knowledge by a parent which contribute towards radicalisation. I have referred to these factors previously in your Lordship’s House, but because of lack of time I am unable to repeat them today.
In my experience, Muslim girls perform better than boys in schools. Muslim women have done well in every walk of life, and we now have a record number of Muslim women in both Houses of Parliament. We should therefore be careful not to regard Muslim women in general as failing and in desperate need of outside help. Many of the problems that exist lie with women who have migrated to the United Kingdom or married men here, irrespective of their religion. However, this applies to all communities, not just Muslims. For example, it is suggested that a significant proportion of immigrants from Europe struggle with the English language. Data that are available suggest that only 6% of the overall Muslim population struggles with speaking English. I appreciate that this differs from what the Prime Minister said, and more research needs to be done.
In any case, it is important to note that the Muslim community is aware that some Muslims cannot speak good English and would like to remedy the problem. English should be taught to people of all faiths and cultures. It is a language that will unite them, and they should share in learning it. We must also remember that while a lack of English can act as a barrier to integration, so can many other factors—for example, labour market inequalities and, especially, deprivation. Unfortunately, almost half of all Muslims in Britain live in the 10% most deprived local authority districts. I have visited deprived areas with higher Muslim populations and am aware of the problem in those areas. Such deprivation can affect people’s aspirations, education, employment and health. Deprivation can also be a factor in influencing youngsters to be radicalised. We therefore need to look at the question of deprivation in certain areas.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)
My Lords, this has been a hugely important debate. I hope we may return to this with more time at some point in future. There is no argument with the Government about the importance of people living in the United Kingdom learning English. It is crucial for work, integration, independence, communication and well-being.
Like the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, I was shocked by the Prime Minister’s statement and the various enunciations that came from Downing Street and which were clearly emotive, quite deliberate and designed to politicise an area in which we surely need to have common purpose among all parties and peoples. I also find it richly ironic that the Government trumpeted the announcement of £20 million towards ESOL programmes when they have spent the past five years cutting into ESOL. The number of people doing ESOL in 2009-10 was nearly 180,000. That fell to 130,000 in the past year, and the number who enrolled this October is 71,500.
Picking up the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, it is also clear that by cutting the amount each provider gets it is no longer viable for many of them to run courses. As a result, experienced qualified teachers are no longer employed in the sector. The irony is that there are thousands of women who want to learn English. In Birmingham, I have seen queues of women enrolling on ESOL courses, and this Government have spent five years reducing their opportunity. The Government have a nerve then to make this announcement that they are suddenly going to find a pittance to develop new programmes.
I thought my noble friend Lady Uddin made some important points about the role and contribution of Muslim women in this country, for which we should be grateful. Let me ask the same question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Kerr: where is the evidence that families where women do not speak English are more susceptible to supporting terrorism? This is very important. If we are talking about building an inclusive society, to make these emotive statements—and we know that the Prime Minister was able to produce no evidence—is disgraceful. This announcement is a step back in integration and in the possibility of trying to achieve what the Government ostensibly say they want to achieve.
As for holding a gun at the heads of people who have come here on a spousal visa, it is pretty obvious that we want to encourage people to learn English, but do the Government really think that that is the way to integrate communities into our society? All it will do is encourage resentment and fear and lead to further segregation. The Government will have rules that will have to apply to everyone, but naming Muslim women is a crude attempt to finger a particular community. I thought Madeleine Bunting put it correctly when she said the approach risks turning communities inward, which is then compounded, as the noble Lord said, by endemic poverty in those communities. It will put progress back. It certainly will not lead to the kind of society that we wish to see. I am very doubtful whether it will have any impact whatever in relation to terrorism. This is very disappointing.
I also say to the noble Baroness that if the Government are so concerned on this issue, why have they encouraged a large rise in faith schools, many of which serve only to increase segregation in many of our communities? The Government have got off on the wrong foot on this. They need to rethink their language and their approach.
Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
My Lords, I am very pleased to answer this Question for Short Debate. I thank all noble Lords who contributed to it. The noble Baroness, Lady Uddin, immediately raised a point about racism and prejudice in this country, particularly when people come from other countries for the first time. A number of speakers have been recipients of that type of racism and abuse—as I was as a child.
The noble Baroness and my noble friend Lord Sheikh mentioned the success of BME women in this country. They have been incredibly successful, and among them I include some of the noble Baronesses in the Chamber today. The noble Baroness also invited me to meet with some of the ladies she talked about, which I will be very happy to do. In speaking about racism and prejudice she raised the point about anti-Muslim hatred, and as someone who chairs that group, I acknowledge that she is absolutely correct: both anti-Muslim hatred and anti-Semitic attacks in the last year have spiked quite dramatically. I pay tribute to those in that group for the work they do to both monitor it and bring issues to the Government’s attention.
I begin today by affirming the words of the Prime Minister, who has been much mentioned in this debate, in his article in the Times last Monday. He says:
“Britain has a claim to be the most successful multi-faith, multi-racial democracy on the planet. We got here because we fought and won those long struggles for liberty, equality and mutual tolerance. But the job of building a more cohesive country is never complete. With English language and women’s empowerment as our next frontier, I believe we can bring Britain together and build the stronger society that is within reach”.
Earlier this month, I was privileged to attend a community engagement forum where the Prime Minister met a group of inspirational Muslim women—the very type the noble Baroness, Lady Uddin, talked about—who have achieved remarkable things in their communities, acting as role models to other women. We should absolutely celebrate their success and that of other women who are flourishing in many different fields. But we must not shy away from tackling the factors underpinning the stories that they also brought to the discussion about the more negative side of things. These are stories, which some noble Lords brought up today, of forced gender segregation, discrimination and in some cases isolation from mainstream British life. The inability to speak good English leaves too many women at risk of this kind of treatment, and we need to act to remove this barrier.
I will tell a story about one of the most harrowing things I ever had to witness. It happened in a domestic refuge, which provided in particular for south Asian women, some of whom had arrived at the refuge—God knows how they got there, because they could not speak English—having been isolated in their homes and living in fear of doing anything that might be against their husbands. Their plea to learn English touched me more than anything I have ever heard, because I saw it—the noble Baroness, Lady Flather, brought this up—as almost their ticket to freedom. Just to be able to book a doctor’s appointment or ring up a domestic refuge would have helped them. I have to say that some of them were so traumatised that they could not even speak their own language by the time they got to the refuge, such was the bravery it had taken to get there.
There is a clear rationale for why our new English language offer, worth £20 million over this Parliament, will be directed at helping Muslim women in our most isolated communities to get the training they need. Of course this will not be a “Muslim-only” scheme, which the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, and the noble Baroness, Lady Flather, asked about; we want to do all we can to encourage Muslim women to take up the offer. It will apply to all, including those who come to the UK on a spouse visa; we are simply raising the expectation of the level of proficiency after two and a half years to help them integrate into everyday life.
One reason we have focused on Muslim women is that the figures for Muslim women who speak little or no English demonstrate that poor English skills are particularly prominent within this group. Some 38,000 Muslim women aged over 16 reported that they spoke no English at all, and over 150,000 reported that they did not speak English well. This means that 22% of Muslim women in England—that is an ONS figure—could not speak English well or at all. This figure compares to 10% of Muslim men, less than 1% of Christian women, and 2.1% of the female population overall.
I am sure that this House accepts the basic proposition that learning English opens up a host of possibilities that may previously have been closed, providing women with opportunities to fulfil their personal and economic potential and that of their families. That goes back to the point about the basic task of filling in forms and making a doctor’s appointment. Our new programme will involve local volunteers and mentors supporting women to learn in a local setting, and will focus on practical daily scenarios such as those I have outlined, and situations such as talking to teachers about their children’s progress. It will enable many more women to converse in English both in their homes and their communities. It will help women break through the barriers that inevitably arise with a crippling lack of confidence and the inability to articulate their own opinions, decisions and aspirations. Those barriers can at first seem insurmountable but may quickly fall away when they have gained the power to communicate.
This point cannot be better illustrated than by listening to the voices of women themselves. Mrs N is originally from Bangladesh and is a Muslim mum with one child. When she arrived in UK she spoke no English and could understand only a few words. She joined one of the six community projects my department funded in 2014, the learning from which will influence our new programme. She said:
“I felt isolated at first here in UK because I couldn’t speak English—I felt nervous and uncomfortable and I didn’t get to know any English people … Learning English and working as a volunteer with the project has shown me that I can learn new skills, help my son, help other people and do something useful for my local area. I am now looking for vocational training to get qualifications so I can get a job”.
We want to extend the opportunity that Mrs N has grasped. We must do all we can to give people like her the skills they need to speak and to be heard.
A couple of noble Lords talked about ESOL funding. The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, talked about participation in 2015-16 having fallen to 71,500. I point out that the figure is so low because it is only from August to October. ESOL is largely targeted at jobseekers, which is still the case. In 2014-15, BIS spent £105 million on supporting more than 130,000 people to learn English.
Before I run out of time—and possibly voice—I will address the point made about radicalisation. I have watched with interest the commentary in the days since the Prime Minister’s announcement. Much of it has been supportive and measured, and some of it has not. I know that some strongly reject the view that women being able to speak English and engage in daily life has any connection whatever with efforts to stop people sliding towards radicalisation. I disagree. The Prime Minister himself made it clear that we are not saying that conservative religious practices directly cause extremism. That would be insulting to many who are devout and peace-loving. But with fluency in English, women are far better placed to access the labour market, far more able to make decisions in their own lives, to converse with their children about their daily experiences and to make friends with people from outside their immediate circle.
How can a parent be confident that the material their child accesses on the internet or brings home from friends is appropriate if they cannot understand it themselves? How can women be open to a wide range of different views and perspectives of the world if so many media sources and channels of communication are closed to them? Nobody is saying that language skills are an answer in themselves—noble Lords have brought that up—but learning English has a role to play in allowing women to better integrate and understand and engage with their local community and wider British culture. Notably, English allows women to better understand the world that their children inhabit outside the home and the influences, positive or malign, which are brought to bear on them and which help to shape their emerging views of the world.
The noble Lord, Lord Sheikh, suggested the use of mosques to teach English. I totally agree: we should use mosques and other religious buildings for English-language training. In fact, a number of the Near Neighbours projects that I have seen in action have that very facility, and they have proved very useful. We will seek to learn from FaithAction, one of our current six projects that are delivering training in familiar local venues across five separate faiths.
This has been an excellent discussion. I hope that some of what I have said has helped to clear up some of the misconceptions and that we can all move forward on this agenda together.
Baroness Hussein-Ece
I asked the noble Baroness, as did the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, and others, where the evidence is for the link that the Prime Minister articulated between women not being able to speak English and them losing their identity and sliding towards extremist organisations such as Daesh. He specifically said that. I listened very carefully but did not hear the Minister respond to that at all. That was the crux of the Question for Short Debate. None of us queries whether everyone should learn English.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
Perhaps I may clarify that. I think that I articulated my view that a lack of ability to speak English did not of itself mean that a woman would become radicalised; it was more that she could engage, first, with what her children were doing and, secondly, with the world around her.