Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)
The Home Secretary set out in her opening remarks why she believes it is necessary to introduce this Bill. She referred to the threat level, which has increased, and to the number of terrorist threats thwarted by our intelligence and security services and the police. She also referred to the need for the Bill’s additional powers to keep this country safe.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford (Yvette Cooper), the shadow Home Secretary, said that we will work with the Home Secretary: “We agree with her on some things, but we do not think she has got it right yet on others, and amendments are needed. Parliament as a whole must be thoughtful and responsible, because our liberty and security depend on each other. We need both in a democracy to keep us safe.”
This afternoon’s debate has been very thoughtful and responsible. The contributions of Members on both sides of the House have been of very high quality, and the debate has been very well informed and knowledgeable. The former Attorney-General, the right hon. and learned Member for Beaconsfield (Mr Grieve), started with a succinct but powerful speech. The Chair of the Home Affairs Committee, my right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz), reminded the House of the need for effective scrutiny of legislation and the role the Committee can play in that regard. He was followed by the right hon. and learned Member for North East Fife (Sir Menzies Campbell), who is an esteemed member of the Intelligence and Security Committee. My right hon. Friend the Member for Salford and Eccles (Hazel Blears), who is also a member of the ISC and a former counter-terrorism Minister, said that the provisions were both necessary and proportionate.
I will comment on Members’ contributions when I refer to specific provisions. The hon. Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis) is another member of the ISC, and he was followed by my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Perry Barr (Mr Mahmood), who speaks with such authority, as a member of the Muslim community, about his own experience in Birmingham, particularly with regard to schools and Operation Trojan Horse. He was followed by the hon. Member for Cheltenham (Martin Horwood) and it is important to note that GCHQ is in his constituency. I think that all Members would want to pay tribute to the security and intelligence services for all the work they do, every day of the week and every week of the year, to keep us all safe. I think the hon. Gentleman is the Liberal Democrat spokesman on this issue and it was interesting to hear him say that he thought the Bill strikes broadly the right balance. He noted in particular the support for the data retention provisions.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Knowsley (Mr Howarth), who is a former Home Office Minister and another member of the ISC, spoke powerfully about radicalisation and the work of the International Centre for the Study of Radicalisation at King’s college to inform the debate. We then heard from the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart). We know, of course, that terrorism has touched Scotland in recent years, with the attack on Glasgow airport. Finally, my hon. Friend the Member for Bolton South East (Yasmin Qureshi) spoke with her experience as a prosecutor and her knowledge of her community.
I will now briefly refer to the specific contents of the Bill to pick up some of the issues raised in the debate. Part 1, which deals with exclusion and passports, introduces new powers to deal with the emerging threat from ISIL—it is known by various names—and the British citizens and residents who have gone out to fight for it. The level of the threat is unprecedented, and we accept the need for new powers.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Salford and Eccles referred, very interestingly, to academic studies about those who go to fight but then want to return to this country, and she mentioned the three categories of the disturbed, the dangerous and the disillusioned. That will help to inform our debate on ensuring that the laws are proportionate and deal with the problems we face.
As my right hon. Friend the shadow Home Secretary set out, we have some concerns about aspects of part 1. Strong powers must be accompanied by equally strong checks and balances, but such checks and balances are absent from the Bill.
That issue was raised by the right hon. and learned Member for Beaconsfield, who made a very interesting comparison. He used the fact that a regime was put in place to ensure that there was judicial oversight, originally for control orders and then for TPIMs, to argue very effectively that we need to do something similar for exclusion orders. He also made a point about passports and possible claims for compensation, and I hope that the Minister for Security and Immigration will respond to that. The right hon. and learned Member for North East Fife also talked at length about exclusion orders and his concerns about interfering with the right of return.
We will table amendments in Committee to strengthen part 1. My hon. Friend the Member for Bolton South East asked whether we would do so, and I can reassure her that we will. We will also seek information about the exclusion power, as it is called in the Bill. As my right hon. Friend the shadow Home Secretary mentioned, the Prime Minister originally promised to exclude people from the United Kingdom, but the Home Secretary has said that the power is in fact about managing the reintroduction of individuals into the UK on certain terms. The process is important, but many questions remain about how part 1 will work, and about whether the powers will be used proportionately.
On part 2 on TPIMs, we of course welcome the Government U-turn. Having looked at the evidence, they are reintroducing relocation powers. The Opposition have called for that to be done for several years. The last Tory Home Secretary, the noble Lord Howard, has also called for it, as have both the current and the former independent reviewers of terrorism legislation. We are therefore very pleased by that change, and we also welcome the proposals to strengthen TPIMs in various ways.
We will seek clarification from the Minister on certain issues in Committee, including the 200-mile relocation limit and firearms licences, which my right hon. Friend mentioned. There is concern about the fact that firearms licensing officers did not know in the past that someone was on a TPIM.
Diana Johnson
I am very pleased that the Home Secretary is shaking her head, but it would be helpful if the Minister enlightened us about why the Government feel the need to make a provision specifically about that issue.
Part 3 is about data retention. We know that telephone records have always shown who receives calls and from whom, and that it has always been possible to link a number to the individual who owns the line. The Opposition think that it is appropriate for equivalent records to be kept for e-mails and peer-to-peer sharing.
As my right hon. Friend said, that issue is particularly important in relation to the National Crime Agency. It has IP addresses for about 20,000 individuals whom it suspects of accessing online child abuse images, but against whom it has not been able to follow through. We think that this power is urgently needed because, until the NCA can get the names of the 20,000 individuals, it will not know how many of them are known sex offenders, are working with children or are living with children. Those are the most basic checks that should be undertaken. The case of Myles Bradbury, which ended in the last 24 hours, should serve as an urgent reminder to the Government of the dangers of the NCA failing to follow up on leads. We accept what was said this evening about the drafting of clause 17. It should be looked at to improve the clarity.
On part 5, we welcome the fact that Prevent is being put on a statutory footing. My right hon. Friend the Member for Salford and Eccles made an excellent contribution on that and spoke, in particular, about the need for consistency and evaluation. It is important to show that whatever is put in place is working and having an effect. We are concerned that the guidance must be made available as soon as possible. Even if the guidance is in a draft format, it would be helpful to have it available when the Bill is in Committee over the next couple of weeks so that we can see what the Government’s thinking is on this issue.
There is, of course, a need for the community to develop resilience and for us to get into the DNA of the community, as a number of hon. Members said. The point has been made strongly this evening that the Department for Communities and Local Government has not taken the lead on the Prevent agenda in the way that the Home Secretary had perhaps hoped. It is therefore important that Prevent is put on a statutory footing. There are lessons to be learned from the experience of my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Perry Barr of schools in Birmingham in relation to Prevent and the duties that will be put on schools.
Finally, the hon. Member for New Forest East gave a thoughtful speech about the need for a counter-narrative at a national level, and my right hon. Friend the Member for Knowsley spoke about how private companies can be engaged in getting that message out. That area needs to be developed.
In conclusion, this Second Reading debate has been constructive. It has highlighted where there is support for the provisions in the Bill and where changes are needed. It has raised a series of specific questions for the Government to answer in the coming stages of the Bill’s passage. We must act proportionately, ensuring that the balance between security and liberty is dealt with properly, and that all the checks and balances are in place, in order to secure as much support as possible for the proposals.
The Minister for Security and Immigration (James Brokenshire)
In responding to what has been a very good debate, it is important to underline the context and background to our discussions. As the Home Secretary emphasised in opening today’s debate, the terrorism threat to the UK is considerable and as bad as it has been at any time since 9/11. That is the assessment that we have been given. It is our duty as a Parliament to ensure that our law enforcement and intelligence agencies have the tools and powers that they need to keep us safe.
I am grateful to all right hon. and hon. Members who have contributed to the debate. Many of them have great knowledge of the subject matter and experience in their communities, which has ensured that the debate has had great breadth and has touched on many issues. It is notable that we have heard from four members of the Intelligence and Security Committee of Parliament, the Chair of the Home Affairs Committee, a further member of the Home Affairs Committee, a former Attorney-General and other Members who have great knowledge, expertise and experience. That has contributed enormously to the debate. I believe that if we continue in that vein and with that approach, the Bill will benefit.
It is important to underline some of the themes of the debate, such as the need to ensure both privacy and security. The right hon. Member for Salford and Eccles (Hazel Blears), my hon. Friend the Member for Cheltenham (Martin Horwood) and the right hon. Member for Knowsley (Mr Howarth) made that point. The two things are not mutually exclusive, and should be mutually reinforcing—one goes with the other. Security brings us liberty, and liberty is basically what we are trying to provide and protect through the security arrangements.
The issues of proportionality and necessity have also been mentioned, and we believe that they are reflected in the measures in the Bill. We look forward to the House’s forthcoming scrutiny and examination of those measures. I note that, almost without exception, the right hon. and hon. Members who have spoken have recognised and understood the importance of the powers in the Bill and broadly supported them, even if some would like to see further focus and reflection on specific aspects of them. On a subject as vital as national security, and confronting and combating terrorism and the extremism that may lead to it, it is right that the House presents a united front to those who would seek to do us harm. The debate this afternoon and this evening has done precisely that.
The threat that ISIL presents to us is serious, as my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Beaconsfield (Mr Grieve) said, but it is not the only threat we face. There are a range of other terrorist organisations, including Boko Haram, al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula and al-Shabaab, and we must also protect ourselves from the threat of home-grown extremists who have been radicalised here in the UK. I recognise some of the points that the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) made, but the threat is not static. It is dynamic—it constantly evolves and changes. That is why it is right that the Government continue to challenge ourselves on what more we can do through legislation, but also through other processes such as the extremism taskforce. That is reflected in the Bill.
It important to recognise the excellent job that the police, MI5 and others do in keeping us safe through the actions that they take day in, day out and week in, week out. My hon. Friend the Member for Cheltenham, who has GCHQ in his constituency, made that point well. I should put on record, as other Members have, our recognition of and thanks to all those who work so hard to ensure the security of this country.
Some broader themes were also raised, such as the issue of counter-ideology and narrative. The hon. Member for Birmingham, Perry Barr (Mr Mahmood) made points about ISIL, which is clearly neither Islamic nor a state. The extremists who seek to advance its poisonous narratives do not do so in the name of Islam, which is a peaceful religion practised by millions of people around the globe. It is important to underscore that clear message from this House—we recognise the threat, but ISIL’s narrative is twisted and poisonous and does not represent Islam, which is one of the great religions.
On the issue of a counter-narrative, a number of Members, including the hon. Member for Bolton South East (Yasmin Qureshi), mentioned communities standing up. It is important to recognise that 100 imams have stood together and signed a letter absolutely condemning the actions of ISIL and others. That has shown a community coming together, and it has used social media to do so. It has used hashtags such as #NotInMyName and #MakingAStand to ensure that a counter-message is delivered in a way that is likely to reach those who need to be reached. Of course we want more of that, but it is important to recognise the stances and responses that the community has given to confronting and combating some of the sheer evil that has been perpetrated, and how it is making a stand in a direct and powerful way.
Keith Vaz
The Minister is making a sensible and thoughtful speech and his tone is absolutely right. May I put to him a point that I put to my right hon. Friend the Member for Salford and Eccles (Hazel Blears)? Has any research been done on the tipping point and the moment a law-abiding citizen suddenly becomes a radical jihadist? We have a lot of experience in counter-terrorism and have spent a huge amount of money on the issue. Are we any closer to knowing where that profile changes?
James Brokenshire
This is a complex subject and we cannot point to one individual factor for a specific individual. We can examine the profiles and backgrounds of terrorists who have been convicted for their crimes, but it is hard to generalise. We can point to individual factors or circumstances that may have contributed over a number of years, and some contributions to the debate have been about the vulnerability of certain individuals. Equally, for whatever reason, some people have sought to create an identity by allying themselves to an extremist organisation in some way. There is good understanding, but answers will be different for different circumstances and individuals, and it is important to understand the layers and complexity. Equally, we must look at the safeguarding agenda. Our work through Prevent is to ensure that front-line professionals are acutely aware of identifying any issues, so that people are directed to support and measures and do not progress down the path towards radicalisation and terrorism. We will continue that important work.
Mr Khalid Mahmood
Following on from what my right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz) said, a study has been done by Professor Kam Bhui of Queen Mary university of 600 people from London and Bradford—it should have been Birmingham, but it was not—on a clinical and psychological basis. That provides a certain way forward although it does not address the issue of ideology.
James Brokenshire
That is why it is so important that we continue to see that response from the community and families. The Home Secretary mentioned FAST—Families Against Stress and Trauma—and the good work it seeks to do to encourage families who are concerned about a loved one or someone they know to have the confidence to come forward to talk to someone. That may not necessarily be the police—it may be another agency or someone from the community—but where there are concerns we should act earlier to prevent someone from moving down a pathway that might lead them to be radicalised or to want to make the journey to Syria or Iraq. We must give a clear message that that is not the way to help or assist in that conflict.
On oversight and engagement, I am keen to ensure that we respond to Select Committees—indeed, I will give evidence on the Bill tomorrow morning to the Joint Committee on Human Rights. The Home Affairs Committee will also hold an evidence session tomorrow, and we will respond to inquiries from various Committees that have an interest in this matter.
Today’s main contributions have largely focused on the temporary exclusion order and Prevent, so I will concentrate my remaining remarks on those issues. On discussions with our international partners, as the Home Secretary made clear in her opening remarks we are actively engaged with a number of countries, and those discussions have been positive thus far in relation to practical operations. On the ability of someone to request a return, I point right hon. and hon. Members to clause 5(1), which states that the Secretary of State “must” issue a permit to return. The concept is of a managed return when a request is made, and the only circumstances in which a permit can be refused is if a person fails to attend an interview with a police or immigration officer. Therefore, the sense that we will deprive people of their citizenship or make them stateless does not bear examination, because they will have that right to return and the ability to make that request.
The speedier mechanisms can operate in circumstances around deportation. We will seek to cancel someone’s travel documents and to ensure that they can be put on watch lists, so that they can be met and we know when that return will take place. That is our stance. I therefore tell my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for North East Fife (Sir Menzies Campbell) that we are not seeking to say that someone cannot return in perpetuity. As we have made clear, those concerned will have the right to return to the UK. We believe and are confident that the measures we propose are compliant with our international obligations and relevant human rights legislation.
Sir Menzies Campbell
But an individual can return only under the terms specified by my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary. Can the Minister think of any other occasions or circumstances when the right of return has had conditions attached?
James Brokenshire
The power rightly reflects the challenge and threat we see from those returning from areas of conflict. They might have been radicalised and might have been acting on the instructions of a terrorist organisation. That is why we judge that the power is necessary. Equally, we know that the power deserves appropriate scrutiny, which I know the House will give the measures.
We think it is important to put Prevent on a statutory basis to ensure that there is greater consistency in the manner in which it is provided. It will also ensure that organisations recognise their responsibilities. The measure is about preventing terrorism. It is important to understand the specific frame in which Prevent exists, and to underline the work Prevent has undertaken since 2011. It has delivered 180 community-based projects; it ensures that front-line officers understand the context; and, in the 2013-14 financial year, Prevent local co-ordinators in our 30 Prevent priority areas worked with more than 250 mosques, 50 faith groups and 70 community groups.
In her opening remarks, my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary addressed a concern that has been expressed about university campuses. Her point was that universities’ commitment to freedom of speech and the rationality underpinning the advancement of knowledge mean that they represent one of our most important safeguards against extremist views and ideologies. We need to ensure that they take their responsibilities seriously and have the basic framework in place. That is what the guidance will seek to enunciate. I hear and understand the point made on giving greater clarity in the guidance. It is our intention not only to publish the guidance, but to put it out to consultation, to ensure that we receive appropriate inputs.
To the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) I say that it is the Government’s intention that the measure will apply to Scotland, on the basis that counter-terrorism and national security are reserved. The provisions will be subject to further consultation and discussion with Ministers in the devolved Administrations, which is apt, right and proper.
In conclusion, I reiterate that the threat we face from terrorism is real and severe. The collapse of Syria and the emergence of ISIL in Iraq not only threatens the stability of the middle east, but presents a clear danger in the UK. The Bill will ensure that our law enforcement and intelligence agencies have the powers they need to keep us safe. I hope the House agrees that this is a matter of the utmost importance. We are seeking to ensure that the Bill is passed speedily but not over-speedily, so that there is proper consideration. We believe that the time allowed in Committee and on Report will ensure that the House can do that. We will ensure the swift passage of this vital legislation, but in a way that enables appropriate examination. We recognise and appreciate that the Opposition will, as they have said, do that constructively. We look forward to working with them in that regard. On that basis, I commend the Bill to the House.
Question put and agreed to.
Bill accordingly read a Second time.
Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill (Programme)
Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 83A(7),
That the following provisions shall apply to the Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill:
Committal
(1) The Bill shall be committed to a Committee of the whole House.
Proceedings in Committee
(2) Proceedings in the Committee of the whole House shall be completed in three days.
(3) The proceedings shall be taken on the days shown in the first column of the following Table and in the order so shown.
(4) The proceedings shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion at the times specified in the second column of the Table.
Table
Proceedings | Time for conclusion of proceedings |
|---|---|
First day | |
Part 2, new Clauses relating to Part 2, new Schedules relating to Part 2 | Three hours after the commencement of proceedings on the first day |
Part 3, new Clauses relating to Part 3, new Schedules relating to Part 3, Part 4, new Clauses relating to Part 4, new Schedules relating to Part 4 | Six hours after the commencement of those proceedings |
Second day | |
Chapter 1 of Part 1, new Clauses relating to Chapter 1 of Part 1, new Schedules relating to Chapter 1 of Part 1 | Three hours after the commencement of proceedings on the second day |
Chapter 2 of Part 1, new Clauses relating to Chapter 2 of Part 1, new Schedules relating to Chapter 2 of Part 1 | Six hours after the commencement of those proceedings |
Third day | |
Clause 21, Schedule 3, Clauses 22 to 27, new Clauses relating to Chapter 1 of Part 5, new Schedules relating to Chapter 1 of Part 5, Clauses 28 to 30, Schedule 4, Clauses 31 to 33, new Clauses relating to Chapter 2 of Part 5, new Schedules relating to Chapter 2 of Part 5 | Three hours after the commencement of proceedings on the third day |
Part 6, new Clauses relating to Part 6, new Schedules relating to Part 6, Part 7, remaining new Clauses, remaining new Schedules, remaining proceedings on the Bill | The moment of interruption on the third day |
Consideration and Third Reading
(5) Any proceedings on Consideration and proceedings on Third Reading shall be taken in two days in accordance with the following provisions of this Order.
(6) Any proceedings on Consideration shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion one hour before the moment of interruption on the second day.
(7) Proceedings on Third Reading shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion at the moment of interruption on the second day.
Programming committee
(8) Standing Order No. 83B (Programming committees) shall not apply to the proceedings on the Bill in Committee of the whole House, to any proceedings on Consideration or to proceedings on Third Reading.
Other proceedings
(9) Any other proceedings on the Bill (including any proceedings on consideration of Lords Amendments or on any further messages from the Lords) may be programmed. —(Harriett Baldwin.)
Question agreed to.
COUNTER-TERRORISM AND SECURITY BILL (MONEY)
Queen’s recommendation signified.
Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 52(1)(a)),
That, for the purposes of any Act resulting from the Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill, it is expedient to authorise:
(1) the payment out of money provided by Parliament of:
(a) payments in respect of the Privacy and Civil Liberties Board;
(b) expenditure incurred under or by virtue of the Act by the Secretary of State;
(2) any increase attributable to the Act in the sums payable under any other Act out of money so provided;
(3) the payment of sums into the Consolidated Fund.—(Harriett Baldwin.)
Question agreed to.