(12 years, 10 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr George Osborne)
I beg to move,
That the following provisions shall apply to the proceedings on the Sovereign Grant Bill:
Timetable
1.–(1) Notwithstanding the practice of the House as to the interval between the various stages of a Bill brought in upon a financial resolution, proceedings on Second Reading, in Committee, on Consideration and on Third Reading shall be completed at today’s sitting in accordance with the following provisions of this paragraph.
(2) Proceedings on Second Reading shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion at 2.30 pm.
(3) Proceedings in Committee and on Consideration shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion at 5.00 pm.
(4) Proceedings on Third Reading shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion at 6.00 pm.
Timing of proceedings and Questions to be put
2. When the Bill has been read a second time—
(a) it shall (notwithstanding Standing Order No. 63 (Committal of bills not subject to a programme order)) stand committed to a Committee of the whole House without any Question being put;
(b) the Speaker shall leave the Chair whether or not notice of an Instruction has been given.
3.–(1) On the conclusion of proceedings in Committee, the Chairman shall report the Bill to the House without putting any Question.
(2) If the Bill is reported with amendments, the House shall proceed to consider the Bill as amended without any Question being put.
4. For the purpose of bringing any proceedings to a conclusion in accordance with paragraph 1, the Speaker or Chairman shall forthwith put the following Questions (but no others)—
(a) any Question already proposed from the Chair;
(b) any Question necessary to bring to a decision a Question so proposed;
(c) the Question on any amendment moved or Motion made by a Minister of the Crown;
(d) any other Question necessary for the disposal of the business to be concluded.
5. On a Motion so made for a new Clause or a new Schedule, the Chairman or Speaker shall put only the Question that the Clause or Schedule be added to the Bill.
6. If two or more Questions would fall to be put under paragraph 4(c) on successive amendments moved or Motions made by a Minister of the Crown, the Chairman or Speaker shall instead put a single question in relation to those amendments or Motions.
7. If two or more Questions would fall to be put under paragraph 4(d) in relation to successive provisions of the Bill, the Chairman shall instead put a single Question in relation to those provisions.
Miscellaneous
8. Paragraph (1) of Standing Order No. 15 (Exempted business) shall apply so far as necessary for the purposes of this Order.
9.–(1) The proceedings on any Motion made by a Minister of the Crown for varying or supplementing the provisions of this Order shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion one hour after their commencement.
(2) Paragraph (1) of Standing Order No. 15 (Exempted business) shall apply to those proceedings.
10. Standing Order No. 82 (Business Committee) shall not apply in relation to any proceedings to which this Order applies.
11.–(1) No Motion shall be made, except by a Minister of the Crown, to alter the order in which any proceedings on the Bill are taken or to re-commit the Bill.
(2) The Question on any such Motion shall be put forthwith.
12.–(1) No dilatory Motion shall be made in relation to proceedings to which this Order applies except by a Minister of the Crown.
(2) The Question on any such Motion shall be put forthwith.
13. The Speaker may not arrange for a debate to be held in accordance with Standing Order No. 24 (Emergency debates) at today’s sitting before the conclusion of any proceedings to which this Order applies.
14.–(1) Sub-paragraph (2) applies if the House is adjourned, or the sitting is suspended, before the conclusion of any proceedings to which this Order applies.
(2) No notice shall be required of a Motion made at the next sitting by a Minister of the Crown for varying or supplementing the provisions of this Order.
15. Proceedings to which this Order applies shall not be interrupted under any Standing Order relating to the sittings of the House.
16.–(1) Any private business which has been set down for consideration at 3.00 pm at today’s sitting shall, instead of being considered as provided by Standing Orders, be considered at the conclusion of the proceedings on the Bill today.
(2) Paragraph (1) of Standing Order No. 15 (Exempted business) shall apply to the private business for a period of three hours from the conclusion of the proceedings on the Bill or, if those proceedings are concluded before the moment of interruption, for a period equal to the time elapsing between 3.00 pm and the conclusion of those proceedings.
We are going to follow a rather unusual procedure here, I think, because we have run out of time for Second Reading. I looked to the Chair for guidance on how to handle that and I suggest that as we have some time for debate in the Committee of the Whole House this afternoon we should use the time on clause 1 stand part to have, in effect, a Second Reading debate. Since no amendments were tabled to that clause, either, that is fine. As I understand it through the usual channels, the official Opposition are happy with that. That will address the concerns of my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Mr Leigh) and we can have what feels to the House like a Second Reading debate albeit on clause 1 stand part.
Ed Balls (Morley and Outwood) (Lab/Co-op)
We are clearly making a momentous decision today with the biggest change in the royal finances since 1760, so it is obviously important that we should have a full debate. We had a full debate a fortnight ago and we have that opportunity again today. Given the fact the statements have run on so long, the Chancellor is correct to say that we have a difficulty. The Opposition will be happy to have a full debate on clause 1 stand part and obviously the sooner we start that debate, the better.
Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)
On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. I just need your guidance as I have a particular general point that I wanted to make. It pertains to clause 13 but I would normally have made it on Second Reading. Will you immediately call me to order if I seek to raise it?
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
I think we will need to listen to what the hon. Gentleman has to say.
Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)
I emphasise that my remarks have nothing to do with the measure we will debate today. We can express our views on that one way or the other if we wish. My concern is that we are going to take all stages in one day—we are not, in fact, because we will not even have Second Reading. When Ministers come along, as the Chancellor has today, and argue that it is important to deal with all stages of the Bill in one day they might make their case, but that does not mean that the House should be complacent about the procedure. Last Thursday, the same procedure applied. We had all stages of the Police (Detention and Bail) Bill in one day and the Home Secretary explained its urgency, but even on that occasion I expressed my concern over the way in which we were hurried.
I consider this way of presenting measures to the House and telling us that everything has to be done quickly in one day to be undesirable. What will happen when the Bill goes to the other place? It will have a Second Reading, perhaps, which it has not had here, but the rest of the stages will be taken formally. I want to ask a question about motions such as this one on the allocation of time. What other measures are going to be introduced in the same way? The procedure being pursued shows disrespect to the House. Yes, Ministers always have an excuse for why things must be done in such a hurried way, but it is undesirable and it should not be repeated except on very rare occasions. I want to register my protest accordingly.
Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab)
I will detain the House for only a very short time. First, I strongly agree with the comments of my hon. Friend the Member for Walsall South—
Keith Vaz
Walsall North (Mr Winnick); my hon. Friend is definitely not my sister, my hon. Friend the Member for Walsall South (Valerie Vaz)—I would have recognised that. I agree with what he said and I thank him.
I think the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the shadow Chancellor are trying to be helpful but there were issues that I wanted to raise on Second Reading concerning the Act of Settlement and my Bill on the removal of primogeniture, which is currently before the House and ought to be considered alongside the very sensible changes being made by the Chancellor in clause 9 of this Bill, which gives a female heir of the Duke of Cornwall the chance to get a settlement equal to a male heir. I agree with what the Chancellor and shadow Chancellor have said, but there is no opportunity to raise these issues if we simply have a debate on clause stand part instead of on Second Reading. Like the hon. Member for Gainsborough (Mr Leigh), I should like to know whether it is your intention, Mr Deputy Speaker, to allow a clause stand part debate to proceed as if it were Second Reading, thus enabling us to raise concerns about the modernisation of the Act of Settlement, which as the hon. Gentleman has said, we have been waiting to do for two centuries.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
The stand part debate on clause 1 will be quite broad.
Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab)
May I raise an issue in support of the points that many people have made about the role of the monarchy outside the well-known ceremonial role—the crucial role of Head of State? This matter gets little or no attention. The Conservative historian, Robert Rhodes James, a former colleague of ours, gave a lecture in Cambridge, which was largely ignored, about a time when the role of the monarchy might have been absolutely crucial in our history. It was at the time when the skids were under Margaret Thatcher and everyone wanted her to go and tearful members of the Cabinet were coming to No. 10 Downing Street asking her to go. Robert Rhodes James, who was a very distinguished and respected Member of the House at that time, said that the Conservative party suddenly became terrified because there was a possibility that Mrs Thatcher might call a general election and she could not have been stopped by the Conservative party, the Cabinet or the House of Commons.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. We are talking about the allocation of time. I know that history is part of time but I am not sure it is relevant to the Bill.
Paul Flynn
This point is crucial to why we need extra time. This issue is virtually unknown, but it is important because the only person who could then have stopped Margaret Thatcher from acting in her own interests rather than in the national interests, as she might well have been elected, was the Queen. This is a question about the personality of the monarch, because the strong personality of the monarch might have been vital then. This matter is so important that we should have a greater allocation of time and a full debate.
Mr Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab)
It is a serious point that we are rushing through today a fundamental change. Reference has been made to 1760, so we are proposing in two hours, if that, to change what has been in place for more than 200 years. There has been virtually no publicity in the press. For obvious reasons, we have been dominated in the House and in the public sphere by other events since the Chancellor and the shadow Chancellor first spoke on this issue and since the Bill was read the First time two weeks ago. At that time, of course, none of us would have imagined what would be the only story dominating the press.
This is profoundly important. My right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz), who is the Chair of the Home Affairs Committee, has made his significant points; there are others. The one that most concerns me is that if passed—I have questions about the level of financial support—there can never be any change, because the provisions will not be debated in the same way as the civil list is debated each time the monarch changes.
We are setting in perpetuity a system for paying the royal family that cannot be challenged thereafter. Even George III would have baulked at that—[Interruption]— even though some Conservative colleagues from a sedentary position seem to think that it is a good idea. Therefore, should we not put this off? Festina lente. We do not need to rush this through today. We could return to the Bill in the autumn. We could then have a proper debate and proper public discussion, and deal with it properly.
Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP)
Members want to go back to 1700 and something. I am happy to go back to 1690. [Interruption.] Given the week that we are in, we are close enough. At home, we often say, “We won the battle, but they kept the river.” In this instance, I am happy to support the Government and go with the proposal.
Jacob Rees-Mogg
I am not going to go back to 1066, but I am not sure whether it was auspicious to schedule the debate for Bastille day. Debating the monarchy today of all days might not have been wise, but to limit the debate so much is not necessarily as constitutional as it ought to be, and perhaps Her Majesty’s Government might like to bring the Bill back, as the right hon. Member for Rotherham (Mr MacShane) suggested, when we can have a little bit of time for a proper debate on Second Reading.
Question put and agreed to.
Sovereign Grant Bill