European Union (Approvals) Bill [Lords]

Wayne David Excerpts

Monday 4th February 2013 Commons Chamber

[Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

In the order of things, many hon. Members might think that this Bill is not particularly contentious. I can understand that; however, the Bill is important, in terms of policy content and its constitutional significance to our relationship with the European Union.

As we have heard, there are three elements to the Bill. The first gives legislative approval to the electronic version of the European Union’s Official Journal. A draft decision was arrived at by the Justice and Home Affairs Council last March. Parliament is now being asked to approve that decision. The second issue concerns another decision of the Justice and Home Affairs Council, about the European Union’s Fundamental Rights Agency. The European Union is required to make a decision to establish the thematic areas of the FRA’s work for the next five years. Political agreement was secured at the Council meeting in January last year. Now Parliament has to approve or reject that agreement.

Thirdly, there is the draft European Council decision on the number of European commissioners. The Lisbon treaty states that there will be one commissioner per member state until 1 November 2014, when the number of commissioners would be reduced to a number corresponding to two thirds of the member states. However, a concession was made to assuage Irish sentiments during the Irish referendum on the Lisbon treaty. The concession was that each member state would continue to have one commissioner. To enable that commitment to come into effect, it is necessary to have the conclusion of the European Council agreed by this Parliament.

The three draft decisions are the first such decisions to be brought before this House under the European Union Act 2011. I would like to make a few remarks about that legislation. We welcome the fact that the agreement of Parliament is being sought on these decisions. Although we had reservations during the passage of the 2011 Act about the possibility of referendums being held on a multiplicity of relatively small issues, we strongly supported referendums being held on issues of constitutional significance. We also strongly supported a bigger role for Parliament, both in scrutinising European legislation and actual decision making. That is why we did not oppose the European Union Bill or divide the House on it.

In a constitutional sense, the decisions before us are important because two of the three were made at European level under article 352 of the treaty on the functioning of the European Union—the so-called flexibility clause—which allows the EU to act on a subject for which there is no specific treaty base. The clause has understandably been a cause for concern among parliamentarians across the political spectrum, not only in this country. Indeed, I recall that, when I was a member of the European Scrutiny Committee, a great deal of time was spent deliberating on the issue, and a good report was produced on it.

Given that the Government support the two decisions made under article 352, I am pleased that we are having a full discussion on the Floor of the House and that parliamentary approval is being sought for a parliamentary Bill. I am especially pleased that such approval is being sought on the decision to extend the work of the Fundamental Rights Agency over the next five years. I say that because, as the hon. Member for North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg) has pointed out, the former Lord Chancellor, the right hon. and learned Member for Rushcliffe (Mr Clarke), initially took the view that there was no need for an Act of Parliament as the European decisions satisfied the exemption requirements of the 2011 EU Act. I am pleased to note that the Government changed their mind on that after the European Scrutiny Committee and its indomitable Chairman, the hon. Member for Stone (Mr Cash), pointed out the error of their ways.

I shall comment briefly on each of the draft decisions covered by the Bill. The first decision relates to the Official Journal of the European Union. The EU has produced the OJ in printed form since 1958, and it has been available in its electronic format since 1998. The journal is made up of two series and one supplement. It contains information about the treaties and about the judgments of the European Court of Justice. Crucially, its “S series” supplement also provides invitations to tender for contracts and is therefore an important part of the mechanism that enables the single market to function and develop. As we all know, the single market is vital to the British economy.

We also need to take into account a relatively recent court ruling to ensure that online electronic versions of the Official Journal of the European Union have parity with the paper versions. I refer Members to case C-161/06, which involved a company called Skoma-Lux in the Czech Republic. After being fined for infringing customs legislation, the company, which operated in the fine wine import sector, brought an action for the cancellation of the fine before the regional court in Ostrava. I am sure that Members will be fascinated to hear that the claimant was an importer of the red dessert wine, Kagor VK, into the Czech Republic. The wine was made from grape juice, with added sugar and corn spirit —[Interruption.] You have obviously not tried that delicacy yet, Mr Deputy Speaker, but I am sure that there is time to do so.

After the deliberations in the regional court, the matter was referred to the European Court of Justice, particularly in relation to the interpretation of article 58 of the 2003 Act of Accession, regarding whether that provision allowed the enforcement of a Community regulation that had not been published in the Official Journal of the European Union in the language of a member state. The Court went on to state that publication on the internet did not equate to proper publication. That is why we need clarification of that point today. In case there is concern about digitalisation, I am assured that it will be covered under heading 5 of a multi-annual financial framework budget allocation and that, as the Minister said, there will be no extra cost.

The second draft decision relates to the Fundamental Rights Agency. The previous multi-annual framework for the FRA expired at the end of last year. After consultation, the European Council proposed extending and developing the FRA’s work in a number of thematic areas. In May last year, the Justice and Home Affairs Council reached political agreement for there to be nine areas of work. These included access to justice, victims of crime and compensation for crime victims, children’s rights, racism, xenophobia and related intolerance. Opposition Members believe that the agency is extremely useful in assessing the impact of legislation not only in current EU member states, but in applicant countries. We therefore support the draft decision.

The third decision relates to the number of EU commissioners. This is perhaps the most significant of the proposals in the Bill. As I indicated a few moments ago, this draft decision maintains the number of commissioners at one per member state. I of course welcome the fact that the people of Ireland voted yes in 2009, and I am pleased that they felt able to do so. This change will, it has to be said, ensure that all member states will feel that they are fully represented in all the EU’s principal institutions, which can only be a good thing.

It would be wrong to give the impression, however, that there is no need to change the way in which the Commission functions. There is a need and a case for examining whether there should be a degree of seniority within the college of commissioners, and a case can be made for examining the allocation of portfolios within the Commission. As the shadow Foreign Secretary has argued, there needs to be a commissioner with the specific responsibility for stimulating growth and job creation.

Finally, in recent debates on the European Union, Members have referred to the need for national Parliaments to have a stronger voice and a stronger involvement. Despite its shortcomings, the European Union Act 2011 does to some extent address this issue, but let us not forget that one of the most positive aspects of the Lisbon treaty, which Labour secured, was the introduction of a so-called yellow card procedure. This needs to be strengthened so that this Parliament, along with other national Parliaments, really does fulfil a central role in EU decision making. Subsidiarity means that decisions ought to be taken at the most appropriate level—as close to the people as possible. That is a sound democratic principle, and it ought to be the cornerstone of how we approach the European Union. To make that vision a reality, it will be necessary to ensure that national Parliaments—and this Parliament in particular—play a central role in determining what should be decided and at what level of government.

This Bill, small though it is, has our support because it modestly points us in the right direction. Unfortunately, the same cannot be said of other more important aspects of the Government’s policy towards the European Union.

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[Martin Horwood]

Only yesterday the hon. Gentleman was declaring on Radio 4 that he was taking his lead from the Catholic hierarchy. Now he tells the House that he is taking a lead from the German Parliament. At this rate he might get a reputation for being a Europhile, which might not do his reputation within the Conservative party too much good.

[Wayne David]

Does the hon. Gentleman think the generous allocation of time by the Government has anything to do with the lack of any other Government business?

[Martin Horwood]

It is above my pay grade to judge, but I am sure that is not true.

The substance of the Bill relates to three measures, two of which are completely uncontentious—the e-publication of the Journal and the business plan, effectively, of the Fundamental Rights Agency. Other hon. Members are right that the third measure is worth more substantial debate, as it adjusts a mechanism that was supposed to limit the size and endless growth of the Commission. There are a number of issues that that growth has raised. It was not simply the practicality of having an ever-increasing number of commissioners. Without being unkind to some of the smaller member states, we know that there is a bit of a capacity issue in terms of their ability to produce candidates of sufficient calibre for a portfolio that affects the entire continent. Moreover, in terms of public perception, it slightly muddies the whole idea of the Commission. The Commission should be, in essence, the equivalent of our civil service. It should be the servant of the Council of Ministers, the various European ministerial councils and the European Parliament, and not pretend to be a representative body.

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[Mark Simmonds]

Had the hon. Gentleman been here for the whole debate, he would have heard about that. I am happy to give way to hon. Members who have participated in this debate rather than to those who have just wandered into the Chamber.

It is because of increased parliamentary control that we are debating the elements in the Bill. It gives the House an opportunity to consider several technical measures designed to make the EU more efficient and accessible. The Bill will give parliamentary approval for the Government to agree with three EU decisions. The European Union Act 2011 requires us to seek that approval before the Government can vote in favour of them at EU level.

As the House has heard, the first decision will give legal effect to the electronic version of the Official Journal of the European Union, which will make access to EU law faster and more economical. The second decision will agree the work of the EU Fundamental Rights Agency for the next five years, which will ensure that the Council directs the work of the agency into areas considered to be a priority by member states. The third decision will maintain the current arrangement of having one EU commissioner per member state, which will fulfil a commitment to the Irish and will guarantee that the UK retains its commissioner and is in a stronger position to influence the make-up of the next Commission.

I am grateful to the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Wayne David) for his support for the Bill. He rightly welcomed parliamentary scrutiny, but it was slightly perplexing that he also welcomed referendums, given his party’s position on not allowing the British people the right to decide on what relationship they wish to have with the EU. He also made an important point about the fundamental rights issue, to which I shall return in a minute.

We then heard from my hon. Friend the Member for Daventry (Chris Heaton-Harris), who gave a typically knowledgeable and detailed contribution on the workings of the EU. He was right to highlight the importance of parliamentary scrutiny, the significant change that the Government made and how it was in the UK’s interest. I also welcome his support for these small, technical, but important, measures. He was correct to highlight the Lisbon treaty proposals and how they have since changed, particularly in how they relate to the Commission.

My hon. Friend will also be aware of the necessity, owing to the Irish position, of ensuring that each country has a commissioner, thus ensuring that the UK has a commissioner. He should be aware, however, that the draft decision states that that position should be reviewed when a new Commission is appointed in 2019 or when the number of EU member states exceeds 30, whichever is earliest. I reiterate to him that the Government are committed to having a leaner, less bureaucratic EU, to improving the efficiency of EU institutions, including the Commission, and to continuing to push for substantial reductions in the EU’s administration costs.

We then heard from the hon. Member for Luton North (Kelvin Hopkins), who forcefully argued for an EU commissioner for each country. Part of the Bill will ensure that the UK has the commissioner for the next Commission period. I reiterate to him what I said to my hon. Friend the Member for Daventry.

Then we heard from my hon. Friend the Member for Cheltenham (Martin Horwood). I am grateful to him for his support for the Bill. When he started speaking, I wondered where he was going on the lack of necessity for scrutiny of these important aspects emanating from the EU, but I think he came full circle and, in the end, supported scrutiny. He will no doubt intervene if I have misinterpreted his remarks. I was also slightly perplexed by his comments about the capacity of smaller EU countries to manage a commissioner. Many small EU countries’ commissioners have made a significant contribution to the EU, and I am sure they will do so in the next period.

We then heard a traditionally articulate and passionate speech from my hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg), who was absolutely right, yet again, to highlight the importance of scrutiny, to recognise the vital role of the European Scrutiny Committee—a theme to which I shall return in a moment —and to highlight the significance of article 352, under which any powers brought forward must be agreed unanimously by the Council and EU Parliament. For the UK to agree that at the Council, however, and therefore for the required unanimity to be secured, the UK Parliament must first give its approval. That is what the Government have put in place under the 2011 Act. My hon. Friend was right to suggest that section 8 of the Act stated that a

“Minister of the Crown may not vote in favour of or otherwise support an Article 352 decision unless”

it is approved by an Act of Parliament. That is why this level of detailed, forensic scrutiny is essential and in the UK’s interest. Without the agreement of Parliament, therefore, a proposal brought forward under this legal base cannot be adopted throughout the EU.

We then heard from my hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Mr Cash), who gave a traditionally detailed, analytical speech. I was pleased that he welcomed the Prime Minister’s announcement of the referendum, although I accept that perhaps he does not agree with the timing. I would also like to put on the record my congratulations to him on his chairmanship of the European Scrutiny Committee. He does a sterling job not only for the House, as was mentioned, but for the country.

[Wayne David]

Does the Minister think that the Prime Minister agrees with his glowing praise of the Chair of the European Scrutiny Committee, given that he did his utmost to prevent him from becoming its Chair?

[Mark Simmonds]

I am not sure I share that analysis, and I am quite sure that the Prime Minister thinks extremely highly of my hon. Friend the Member for Stone, who was right not only to underline the importance of scrutiny, as other Members did, but to point out that the Government reflected on his Committee’s suggestions —a good example of scrutiny working—and introduced proposals to pass primary legislation in the way that he and his Committee suggested.

We then heard from my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope), who detailed his thoughts and criticisms of how the FRA worked. I want to put on the record one or two facts in order to add to the debate that he will clearly have in Committee. The proposals do not expand the agency’s remit, but agree to a plan without which we would have much less control over its work. His example of wasting EU taxpayers’ money in the way he alluded to is sadly not the only example he could have given. This is not a new agency, and the funds flow from the EU budget, which, as he will know, is under intense scrutiny and pressure from my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister in order to ensure that UK taxpayers’ money is spent wisely and for the purposes for which it was intended—an ethos that I know he supports very strongly.

My hon. Friend also wanted to know whom the agency was accountable to. It is accountable to the Council of Ministers, which allocates the budgets. I know that he looks forward to delving in further detail into this matter in Committee.

Finally, we heard from the hon. Member for Wolverhampton North East (Emma Reynolds). Again, I reiterate our thanks for the Opposition’s support. She was right again to highlight the issue of commissioners, although I will not repeat what I said about the position being reviewed when a new Commission is appointed in 2019 or when the number of EU member states exceeds 30, whichever is soonest.

Policing

Wayne David Excerpts

Wednesday 24th October 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hanson]

I do not know where the hon. Gentleman has been for the past 100 years, but police authorities did have elected members chairing those committees.

I will talk about the Labour party’s approach to police and crime commissioner elections, but first let me finish looking at where we are in relation to the election on 15 November. Today is 24 October, yet Parliament has not yet approved the Police and Crime Commissioner Elections (Welsh Forms) Order 2012, item 21 on today’s Order Paper. That election is to take place three weeks tomorrow. This very day, the answer from the Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice to a question that I tabled has been published in which it is revealed that his decision not to lay that order has cost you, Madam Deputy Speaker, me and every other Member of this House as taxpayers an extra £350,000. That is the cost of this Government’s failure to lay an order which should have been laid by law—not by choice; by law. It is a legal requirement to have election ballot papers in English and Welsh in Wales, but this Government have not yet laid the relevant order, even though the election is happening three weeks tomorrow. Returning officers in my constituency and throughout Wales have had to print two sets of ballot papers, at a cost of £350,000.

[Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

What my right hon. Friend is describing is truly shocking—a huge waste of public money through Government incompetence. Does he agree that this is the first time in electoral history that a Government have had to destroy ballot papers before an election?

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[Damian Green]

No. The right hon. Gentleman should listen to what I say. The claim is, I think, that forces are facing 20% cuts, but no force is facing cuts of that level. As he knows as well as anyone in the country, the police service receives about a quarter of its income from the police precept element of council tax, the exact proportion—[Interruption.] I am glad that I am able to educate the Labour party about how the police are funded in this country. That funding is not all from the Home Office; some of it comes from the police precept. As the right hon. Gentleman and, I hope, those on the Opposition Front Bench know—although there is no evidence that they do—the exact proportion that comes from the precept varies from force to force, and the level at which it is set is, I stress, a matter for individual police and crime commissioners to decide. In short, no force has seen anything like a 20% cash reduction.

We on this side of the House have long argued that there is no simple link between police numbers and crime rates, and I am happy that that view is shared by the Home Affairs Committee. The figures I have quoted show that that view is correct and widely accepted—the one place it has not yet been accepted is inside the Labour party.

Let me turn to the elections for police and crime commissioners. On this side of the House, we are getting behind our candidates and campaigning hard to ensure that the elections are a success and that the public get the PCCs they deserve—hard-working, dedicated people who want to deliver for their communities and improve policing. Opposition Members should decide whether they support or oppose the elections. I assume that they support them, and I am delighted that the right hon. Member for Delyn has said that he does. A huge number of former Labour Ministers are standing, determined to make 15 November the night of the living retreads.

The confusion on the Opposition Benches is summed up with a pleasing touch of nostalgia by a dispute between Blair and Prescott. Prescott is having an argument with a new Blair, Lord Blair, who is arguing that people should not vote—I think that is disgraceful, and I hope the Labour party will agree that to tell people not to vote in a democratic election is deplorable. [Interruption.] I am glad that the right hon. Member for Delyn disagrees with Lord Blair. I hope that will continue and that everyone in the Labour party will condemn Lord Blair for what he said, not least because, as we have seen in recent articles, Lord Prescott is—of course—campaigning in his unique and energetic fashion around Humberside.

The introduction of PCCs is the most significant democratic reform of policing ever. It will introduce greater transparency and accountability to a service of which we are all rightly proud, but which can sometimes be too distant from the public it serves and fail to reflect adequately their concerns and priorities. As I told the House in a debate last week, only 7% of the public know what a police authority is. That figure represents a huge failure in democratic accountability, because it is the job of a police authority—as it will be of a PCC—to spend the public’s money in a way that guarantees that the police in that area are doing what the public need. It is impossible to do that when 93% of the public do not even know what police authorities are.

[Wayne David]

rose—

[Bridget Phillipson]

rose—

[Damian Green]

I am spoilt for choice but I think that the hon. Lady has had a go, so I will give way to the hon. Gentleman.

[Wayne David]

Does the Minister agree with the Minister of State in the Home Department who said at the Liberal Democrat conference that a turnout out of 20% in elections for PCCs would, “not be good”?

[Damian Green]

My hon. Friend will speak later in the debate, and can no doubt speak for himself. Up to now, and until next month, the public have been unable to do anything about the failures of police authorities. PCCs will have a clear incentive to perform better than that, because if they fail to represent their communities, engage properly and deliver on their priorities, the public will tell them what they think at the ballot box.

Policing matters to the public and people want their forces to respond to their concerns. The advertising campaign that the Home Office has been running this month will be seen by 85% of the public. It tells them how to get more information—[Interruption.] Labour Members have problems with people getting information online, but people can get information online at www.choosemypcc.org.uk, and anyone who wants a printed booklet can get one by calling the freephone number from the advert. Everyone registered to vote will also get the number on a polling card through their door, and the Electoral Commission is writing to each household with information on how to vote. Whatever the Opposition want to say, no one who wants information in the elections will be denied it.

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[Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

Regardless of how we voted on the question of the introduction of police and crime commissioners, all Members on both sides of the House agree that we must do everything possible to ensure that there is a reasonable turnout on 15 November. It worries me that a range of people have expressed deep concern about the turnout. The Electoral Reform Society believes that it may be only 18.5%, which, it says, would constitute an historic low. However, as a number of Members have pointed out, that does not mean that people are not concerned about the issue of policing; in fact, they are deeply concerned about it.

In my constituency, people fear that there could well be a cut of some 20% in police funding over the next few years. They want to see more, not less, neighbourhood policing. They are also deeply worried about the lack of consultation on the closing of front desks in police stations: they want to see consultation on whether resources are being used effectively. They are also worried about the antisocial behaviour that still blights a number of our communities.

Only the other week, I attended a public meeting in a community called Graig-y-Rhacca. Those decent, hard-working people are still blighted by the activities of a relatively small number of persistent offenders, and they want to see more policing in their community, not less. Those issues have been brought to my attention because I am the local Member of Parliament, but they have also been brought to the attention of the excellent Labour PCC candidate, Hamish Sandison, who is doing a very good job in travelling around the Gwent police area as much as possible.

We all know that the Electoral Commission is sending pamphlets to every household in the country, and that is commendable. However, I fear that the Home Office website will be very limited, and that it will not be supplemented by other information disseminated directly to individual households. As we have heard, some 7 million people will be excluded from getting that information directly because they do not have access to the internet.

The Government have produced advertisements over the last few weeks. I hope that they increase awareness, but it must be said that there is concern about the way in which they depict young people, and also that they are giving some people the impression that the PCCs will have more powers than will actually be the case. We know that the PCCs will have no responsibility for operational matters, but will make the chief constables accountable for them, and will themselves engage in wider strategic and funding issues. However, the advertisements do not make that clear.

I now want to focus on the fiasco—for it is a fiasco—of the bilingual ballot forms, partly because it is important in itself but also because, I fear, it is indicative of the wider, ham-fisted approach of the Home Office to the elections. The Opposition said some 12 months ago that there was a need for a statutory instrument—a piece of secondary legislation—to come before this House to enable bilingual Welsh and English ballot papers to be provided for the elections. Our advice was ignored. The result was that a few weeks ago the Home Office suddenly woke up to the fact that it could not have English-only ballot papers in Wales and belatedly introduced a piece of secondary legislation. However, it is not absolutely certain that there will be enough time to get it through. Therefore, all the authorities in Wales have been told that there should be two sets of ballot papers—one in English and one in English and Welsh—at a cost of £350,000 extra. The cost will be paid by the Government—it will be taxpayers’ money—which is a total waste of money. It is the first time that ballot papers will be thrown in the bin before an election.

That, I fear, is indicative of how the Government have approached this whole election—a lack of planning and a lack of strategy. I very much hope, even at this belated moment, that the Government will provide more resources for the elections, so that more people are aware of them and will come out and vote.

Police and Crime Commissioner Elections

Wayne David Excerpts

Friday 19th October 2012 Commons Chamber

[Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

It is now less than four weeks before the police and crime commissioner elections on 15 November, and I have to tell the Minister that there is acute concern about the likely turnout. A wide range of people have expressed concerns. For example, Peter Neyroud, the former chief constable of Thames Valley police, former chief of the National Policing Improvement Agency and now a respected academic at Cambridge university, has expressed concerns about the PCC elections. He stated:

“If you could have constructed a manual on how not to conduct an election, the Home Office have managed to tick just about every element of it.”

The result of the Home Office’s cack-handedness will be that the turnout, again in Mr Neyroud’s words, will be “pretty shocking”.

Concerns were also expressed at the Liberal Democrat conference, by the new Minister of State in the Home Department, the hon. Member for Taunton Deane (Mr Browne), who advanced the opinion that a turnout in the PCC elections of 20% would “not be good”. Worries have been expressed in the other place, by the Police Federation and by PCC candidates, whether representatives of a particular political party or independents.

The clearest and most strongly worded concerns have been expressed by the Electoral Reform Society, which stated some weeks ago that the PCC elections are set to have the lowest turnout of any election in modern times—18.5%. To all democrats, that must be of profound concern. If turnout is that low, it could unfairly advantage extremist candidates who would never succeed in winning over a larger proportion of the electorate. It would also place a massive question mark over the role of elected PCCs. Let us not forget that the stated purpose of police and crime commissioners is to improve the accountability of the police, and reconnect the public with them. That objective would clearly be placed in jeopardy if there were such a low turnout.

To date, the Government have shown few indications that they comprehend the gravity of the situation. Despite protestations that the winter is the worst possible time to hold an election, and particularly a first-time election, the elections are being held in the middle of November, having been postponed by the Government from May. All who have experience of elections know full well how difficult it is for us to persuade voters to come out in the middle of winter, when the nights are cold and dark. That was borne out by distinguished academics Colin Rallings and Michael Thrasher, who conducted research into seasonal factors affecting voting in which they concluded that turnout in council by-elections fell by an average of 6.6% when held in November as compared with May. If that happens with council elections, there is a risk that it will happen with PCC elections.

From the start, it was always going to be difficult to generate enthusiasm for, or even interest in, these elections, but it must be said that things have not been made easier by the Government’s attitude and inaction. Despite the concerns expressed by the Electoral Commission and others, the Home Office has refused to provide information other than online, unless someone specifically asks for written information. The result is that some 7 million people who do not regularly have access to the internet are unlikely to know what is happening. Thankfully, the Electoral Commission is providing a booklet to all households, but it will provide information only about the elections and the electoral system to be used—the supplementary vote. Crucially, no information will be provided about the candidates in any of the police force areas. The result is that electors will have to rely on information provided to them by the candidates themselves.

[Jonathan Ashworth (Leicester South) (Lab)]

My hon. Friend is speaking extremely well. There is very little awareness of the elections in my patch of the city of Leicester, although the excellent Labour candidate, Sarah Russell, is reminding voters that the Government are cutting 200 police officers from the Leicestershire force. There is a great deal of awareness about that; it is extremely unpopular.

[Wayne David]

My hon. Friend’s example from Leicester is replicated the length and breadth of the country. There is tremendous concern about policing and police numbers, but many people are not making the connection between that and the PCC elections. The Labour party will certainly do its utmost to make the connection.

Police force areas are huge in terms of geography and population. It is therefore difficult to disseminate information door to door—it is a huge task. The Government’s position prompts a question: if comprehensive information, including details of the candidates, can be provided for mayoral elections—it will be provided for the Bristol mayoral election on 15 November—why cannot the Government provide candidate information in the PCC elections? Surely that would increase public knowledge and interest, and enhance the democratic process.

There is also a concern that there are no provisions for information in accessible formats for people with sight difficulties, and no information is provided in any other languages, despite the assurances given in an Adjournment debate on 25 April by the then Minister with responsibility for political and constitutional reform. Incidentally, I would appreciate an explanation of why a Cabinet Office Minister responded to that debate on PCC elections, but a Home Office Minister will reply to this one. Why the change? Is the switch indicative of the confusion at the heart of the Government about the conduct of the elections? Who is really in charge of these elections? Is anyone in charge of them?

I referred a moment ago to minority languages. I am incredulous that the Government have messed up on the production of bilingual ballot papers for Wales. Despite repeated reminders from the Opposition, the Home Office has only this week tabled the order to enable the production of bilingual ballot papers in Wales. It is likely that Parliament will approve the order to allow the ballot papers to be sent out as postal votes in Wales and I guess that this will be done in the nick of time. But there is of course no certainty that the Government will meet the deadline, and they belatedly realised this some weeks ago.

Having wrongly believed that there was no need for such an order, the Home Office, in its wisdom, then decided to play safe and give the go-ahead for the production of two sets of ballot papers—one set in English only and one set in English and Welsh. Which set will be used depends on whether the Government get their order through before the deadline. The unused set of ballot papers will then be destroyed—I kid you not, Madam Deputy Speaker. This is the first time in modern electoral history that the Government have, through sheer incompetence and stupidity, been obliged to throw away more than 2 million ballot papers before an election. How much is this act of folly costing the taxpayer? The Government are reluctant to say, for understandable reasons, but it is estimated that the cost runs into many hundreds of thousands of pounds—taxpayers’ money wasted by the incompetence of this Government.

I am sure the Minister will point out that the Government are engaged in a public awareness campaign with television, radio and newspaper advertising. Those advertisements are making a contribution to raising public awareness. That cannot be denied, and I sincerely hope that they will continue to help raise awareness, but I have to say that these advertisements are unprecedented as a way of increasing knowledge of elections and they are not risk free. In this respect, I would point out to the Minister that concerns have already been expressed. It has been suggested by some that the adverts unfairly depict young people, imply criticism of current policing and suggest that PCCs will have a role in day-to-day policing priorities, which of course is not and should not be the case.

As I said at the outset, there are only a few weeks left before the elections. I hope that the lessons of the campaign so far will be learnt and I know that the Electoral Commission is already focused on this, but I also hope that the Government will mobilise more resources, even at this relatively late stage, so that a concerted effort can be made to raise public awareness. I would hope that all Ministers will make an effort to refer to the PCC elections at every opportunity. Labour Members will certainly do our best to make people aware of them.

While all of us in this House have differences about the role of PCCs and what their priorities should be, all of us must surely believe that it is important for democracy that there is a good turnout in these elections. That is something on which all sides of the House should surely agree.

[The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Damian Green)]

I would normally congratulate the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Wayne David) on securing this debate but given the content of his speech, the thought occurs that perhaps we would both be better engaged in being out there and campaigning for some of our respective candidates in the PCC elections on 15 November. In that regard, I feel I should put it on the record that I did indeed spend this morning in Stevenage and Hitchin campaigning with the excellent Conservative candidate for Hertfordshire, David Lloyd, and meeting people working on crime prevention in the area—

[Wayne David]

I just wish to make the point that I will be out tomorrow morning with the excellent Labour candidate in Gwent, Hamish Sandison—

--- Later in debate ---

[Damian Green]

I will happily do that, Madam Deputy Speaker, because it gives me the chance to correct a number of inaccurate assertions that the hon. Gentleman has made.

I will deal with the hon. Gentleman’s final point about whether Members are doing their best to increase interest in the elections. I cannot remember whether he attended Home Office questions on Monday, but, as the Home Secretary observed, many Government Members took the opportunity to refer to the elections and individual candidates. The only Labour candidate referred to by name, however, was the right hon. Member for Cardiff South and Penarth (Alun Michael), and he was referred to by himself, so, although I agree that Members should help to raise public awareness, I think I can say, in the fairest and least partisan way possible, that the hon. Gentleman might want to spread that message on his own Benches. It has been well spread on ours.

The hon. Member for Leicester South (Jonathan Ashworth) mentioned police numbers, so it is worth putting it on the record the fact that crime in Leicestershire has fallen by 5% in the past 12 months, which shows how effective the current arrangements for policing are there.

I remind the House why we are introducing police and crime commissioners, the most significant democratic reform of policing ever. It will introduce greater transparency and accountability to a service of which we are rightly proud but which can sometimes be too distant from the public it serves and can fail adequately to reflect their concerns and priorities. For too long before the Government came into office, the Home Office interfered too much in local policing and cared too little about national threats. The introduction of PCCs is a step along the road to reversing that trend. The creation of the National Crime Agency to focus on serious and organised crime nationally is another. PCCs will not just focus on their local area but will have a duty to co-operate in dealing with national threats under the new strategic policing arrangement.

Within four weeks, we will find out who the first PCCs will be. They will be the first people elected with a democratic mandate to hold their local force to account, set the budget and draw up the policing plan. Of course, the wider landscape into which the new PCCs will enter is also evolving fast. The college of policing will be launched later this year, and PCCs will sit on its board. Crucially, then, direct representation of the people of England and Wales will also be introduced on to that board. The purpose of the college will be to enhance professionalism across the service. Everyone in the country cares about the continual improvement of professionalism in the police, and the college will play a significant role in making that happen.

The issue of public awareness lay at the heart of the speech by the hon. Member for Caerphilly. It is worth putting that in the context of the picture we now have of crime. By happy coincidence, the latest crime statistics were out yesterday, and they are very pertinent to this debate. They show that on both measures—the crime survey for England and Wales and police recorded crime—crime is falling. It has fallen by 6% in the crime survey and by 6% in the record crime figures. Most significantly, the fall is across the board—violence, burglary, vandalism, vehicle theft, robbery and knife crime are all down.

PCCs will be taking up their posts, therefore, in a time of a continuing downward trend in crime rates that proves—this is relevant to the point about Leicestershire—that it is not how many officers we have but what we do with them that counts. Wise PCCs will understand that point when they take up their offices and start deploying the police plans that they will need to operate. We are replacing what were bureaucratic and unaccountable police authorities with democratically accountable PCCs so that, for the first time, the public will be given a voice and a seat around the table when key decisions are made about how their communities are being policed and how their money is being spent. I suspect that the hon. Gentleman would agree that that simply does not happen under the current system, and I genuinely hope that the tone of his speech did not reflect an underlying unease about greater and better democratic control of the police.

[Wayne David]

indicated dissent.

[Damian Green]

I am glad that the hon. Gentleman confirms that it did not.

I suspect that the hon. Gentleman and I can also agree that for all the good work that people on the police authorities do—many do very good work—we know that police authorities are often invisible and unaccountable. Inspections have shown that fewer than a quarter of police authorities perform well on their basic functions and that fewer than a third engage well with their communities. In part, that is because only 7% of the public know what a police authority is. The hon. Gentleman adduced survey evidence showing the level of engagement with the PCC elections, but none of the figures is as low as the 7% of people who have heard of police authorities. That figure represents a huge failure in democratic accountability, because it is the job of a police authority—as it will be of a PCC—to spend the public’s money in a way that guarantees that the police in its area are doing what the public need. However, it is impossible to do that when 93% of the public do not even know what police authorities are. There is simply no possible measurement of success in that area. Up to now—and up to next month—the public have been simply unable to do anything about those failures. PCCs will have a clear incentive to perform better than that. If PCCs fail to represent their communities, engage properly and deliver on their priorities, the public will be able to tell them what they think of them at the ballot box.

The hon. Gentleman made the point about the November elections. He will be aware that the legislative timetable meant that this was an early date, but the Government correctly took the decision that further delay would simply mean that it would take longer before we could apply what are appropriate democratic controls. He also made the point about the weather. On the whole—but not always, in these troubled climatic times we live in—the weather in May is better than the weather in November. However, I should also observe that every four years America holds what is possibly the most important election in the world in November and the American electorate seem to engage in it, so it is not insuperable for people to go and vote when it is a bit cold and wet.

It is also clear—this is hugely relevant—that with more than 90% of the public not even aware of what a police authority is, we are starting the procedure from a very low base of public engagement. We could have a long, academic debate about what the turnout may or may not be in a few weeks’ time. The hon. Gentleman made it clear that there is no shortage of commentators criticising the date of the election or demanding that ever-increasing amounts of money be spent on strategies to engage the public, which may or may not work. What is neither academic nor remotely in doubt is that whatever happens—however many thousands of people turn out to vote in each force area—every PCC will have more legitimacy to make important decisions about what the police do than unelected, unaccountable and, as I have said, largely invisible police authorities.

There is no question but that there is huge public interest in policing issues. They regularly come near the top of issues that people want addressed, particularly when they are asked about antisocial behaviour, which many feel is not taken seriously enough in some areas. The Home Office advertising campaign, which the hon. Gentleman mentioned and about which I shall say more shortly, is focused precisely on telling the public that PCCs will respond to those priorities. The hon. Gentleman made some critical remarks about the content of the advertisements, but that content is dictated by what the public care about. That is what they think about when they think about crime, and that is what they will want the PCCs to address.

There is evidence that the public are engaged. Our crime-mapping website is the most successful Government website ever. There have been more than 500 million hits since it was launched, and—perhaps because of the elections next month, and the gradually increasing public awareness and willingness to discuss crime-related matters—the traffic to the site has increased markedly in recent weeks. This month alone, it is averaging more than 360,000 hits each day. I know how much of an increase that is. Because I am relatively new to my post, I still remember my initial briefing just over a month ago, when I was told that the average was 250,000 hits a day. I am fairly sure that the only reason for the increase—an extra 100,000 hits a day—is the advent of the PCC elections, as nothing else has changed.

We are expanding the website to respond to that ever-increasing demand for information. We have added justice outcomes so that people can see what happens when a crime takes place, measures to compare similar areas, and mug shots of convicted criminals, all of which are proving popular with the public.

We know that the public care about crime, that they want to know more about crime in their local areas, and that they want their voice to be heard. The elections on 15 November will give them an opportunity not just to talk about crime, but to take action to make a change in their communities. A week from today, information about every candidate who supplies such information will be published online. That will give the candidates an opportunity to set out their stall to the electorate, and to reveal their vision for policing. Let me stress again—I have said this many times, but it clearly has not got through to the hon. Gentleman yet—that the information will be delivered free of charge, in written form, to anyone who asks for it, via a phone line.

[Wayne David]

I am aware of that—if the Minister had listened carefully to my speech, he would have heard me make it very clear that I was aware of it—but why on earth does he not follow the example of the mayoral election campaign, and send information directly to households?

[Damian Green]

There is a certain amount of confusion among Opposition Members. Half of them complain that the elections are a waste of time and cost too much, while the other half demand that we spend more on them. The hon. Gentleman falls into the latter camp, which is entirely consistent with his general approach. That is fine from his point of view, but I have to tell him that there is no such thing as a free mail shot. The so-called free mail shot would actually have cost the taxpayer more than £30 million. If the hon. Gentleman wants to go and decide, along with his colleagues, whether he wants more to be spent or not, he can do so.

We should publicise this information. The address of the website is www.choosemypcc.org.uk, and the telephone number—which is Freephone from landlines—is 0800 1 070708. It is very easy for people to obtain information about the elections. Details of both the website and the phone line will appear on every polling card that is delivered to every registered voter in England and Wales outside London. We launched an advertising campaign this month that explains the reforms, encourages participation in the elections, and provides a phone number. No one will be denied information. I hope that the hon. Gentleman has seen our advertisements. We have calculated that 85% of the population will see the television advertisement alone an average of six times. In addition, every household will receive information about the elections from the Electoral Commission, which will include information about the role of PCCs and, crucially, about how to vote.

The hon. Gentleman has been consistent in saying that every effort should be made to familiarise the electorate with the role of the PCCs, with the candidates and with the electoral system. All that has been done. In addition, a large number of candidates have already started campaigning and will be doing much of that work themselves. So not only will the public be made aware of the elections, but they will have the information they need to make informed choices. Beyond that, it is up to the candidates locally to make these elections a success. Given that the three main parties in this House are fielding candidates, it is incumbent on us all to go out to explain to the public why the competing visions for policing and tackling crime are worth turning out for, and how PCCs can best ensure that the public get the policing they deserve.

Question put and agreed to.

Police

Wayne David Excerpts

Wednesday 8th February 2012 Commons Chamber

[Yvette Cooper]

My hon. Friend is right. In every force across the country, chief constables have been put in an impossible position and as a result they are saying that they have to cut front-line services. That is the impact of the Government’s decisions. The Minister is not admitting the facts. He will not stand up again and confirm the facts from HMIC, which show that in the first year more than 4,000 front-line officers have gone from front-line jobs. That is the reality of what is happening.

[Mr Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

Does my right hon. Friend agree that the lack of candour from the Government is having a negative impact on police morale? If the Government do not support them, they are asking, who on earth will?

[Yvette Cooper]

My hon. Friend is right. The ducking and diving from Ministers shows how out of touch they are with what is happening in police forces and communities across the country. Communities know what is happening, because they can see it. Police officers are being taken off the front line and the number of uniformed officers working in custody suites, for example, has gone up, not down. In Birmingham, uniformed officers have been taken off the front line in order to monitor CCTV and, in Leeds, police officers are having to go back into the station between incidents to type up their own case notes because the support staff have gone. Whereas those officers would previously have been able to move from incident to incident, rapidly responding, they are now having to go back into the office to do paperwork instead.

Domestic Violence, Crime and Victims (Amendment) Bill

Wayne David Excerpts

Friday 21st October 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

In 2004, the previous Government introduced the Domestic Violence, Crime and Victims Act. Section 5 was written to address a particular situation: a gap in the law dealing with cases when a child had died at the hands of one or other of its parents, or other members of the household, and no one would admit to what had been done. To be guilty of the offence, the household member must have either caused the death or failed to take reasonable steps to protect the victim.

The NSPCC had campaigned on the issue, and the Law Commission did a great deal of work on it. While the 2004 Act was under consideration, there was a debate about whether the legislation should include serious harm cases and the point was made, both in this and the other place, that the term “serious harm” would need careful definition. Importantly, the then Government left the door open for the issue to be addressed again in the future. As the Minister at the time, my right hon. Friend the Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East (Paul Goggins), said:

“I do not rule out extending the offence at some time in the future. It is important, first, to put in place the new offence. Let us get that right first and see how the provision operates. If appropriate, we may return to the problem at a later date.”—[Official Report, 27 October 2004; Vol. 425, c. 1473.]

Since the passage of the 2004 Act, between 2005 and 2008 alone the offence of causing or allowing the death of a child or vulnerable adult was used successfully to prosecute 17 people, notably baby P’s mother, boyfriend and lodger. It was clear that one of them caused Peter’s death, but the police could not prove which of them was directly responsible. As a result, they were all found guilty of causing or allowing his death.

Crown Prosecution Service data suggest that there is now a need to extend the law to cover cases of serious injury. In 2010, CPS prosecutors in six areas identified 20 potential cases involving children and three involving vulnerable adults that could not be prosecuted under existing legislation, but which they believe could have been prosecuted under the proposed new offence.

It is clearly time to return to the issue. That is why the Opposition support the Bill introduced by the hon. Member for Mole Valley (Sir Paul Beresford). We congratulate him on all his assiduous work. The Government suggested two amendments, which were accepted by the hon. Gentleman. The amendments will strengthen the Bill and now, with cross-party support, I hope that this important measure will soon be on the statute book and be implemented quickly.

Police Commissioners (Wales)

Wayne David Excerpts

Tuesday 14th September 2010 Westminster Hall

[Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab)]

Thank you for the chance to have this debate, Mr Walker. I am grateful to other hon. Members from Wales for coming along.

Few issues exercise my constituents more than crime, and I am sure we all agree that policing is far too important for us to get it wrong. That is why I am grateful for the opportunity to have this debate and to question the Minister. I say that not least because the Home Office consultation “Policing in the 21st century: reconnecting police and the people” lasted only eight weeks, which is less than the 12 weeks set out in the Cabinet Office guidelines. The consultation was also done over the summer holiday period, thereby restricting consultation on this hugely important issue before the Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill begins its progress.

With any new proposal on law and order, we all ask ourselves the fundamental question whether it will allow us to work better together to cut crime. The proposal for directly elected police commissioners will not do that, and it is a costly diversion. The proposal to remove police authorities and to replace them with directly elected police commissioners is opposed by the Local Government Association, the Association of Chief Police Officers, the Association of Police Authorities and, according to some reports, many Tory and Liberal Democrat councillors—not least councillors, and indeed magistrates, who have given police authorities valuable service. We then realise that there are serious concerns about the Government’s proposal, and they need addressing.

Those councillors, myself and other Opposition Members feel that the proposal has the potential to politicise policing, to impinge on the availability of funding for front-line police services, to be unrepresentative of the community and to go against the coalition’s desire for localism. If we set those concerns against the backdrop of the belief that the proposal would be hard to reverse once it had been implemented, we start to fear that it could damage the future of policing.

[Mr Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

Is my hon. Friend aware of any evidence at all of a public appetite for such a change?

[Jessica Morden]

I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention. I am not aware of any public appetite. I was about to say that, like all hon. Members, I have frequent conversations with constituents about crime, antisocial behaviour and policing, and I have yet to encounter a clamour in my constituency for an elected police commissioner. My constituents want more police out on the beat preventing crime; the last thing they want is another politician. That is what the previous Government understood when they consulted. Although the present system is not perfect, substantial progress was made, and crime is down. It is no coincidence that there are now more police and police community support officers. Following on from my hon. Friend’s intervention, I would be grateful if the Minister could provide evidence of the appetite for change.

I am at a loss to know why the Government’s policy is being prioritised when forces are facing one of the most challenging times financially because of the coalition’s cuts. Surely, the priority is to keep as many police on the beat as possible. Will the Minister give me a breakdown of the cost of his proposals, because Ministers have not addressed the issue in any forum that I have attended? In a recent answer, the Under-Secretary of State for Wales told me that electing police commissioners and the new crime and police panels would cost not a penny more than the existing police authorities, which is clearly not the case. The LGA estimates that the elections could cost as much as £54 million. Today, the president of the Police Superintendents Association of England and Wales has said that crime and antisocial behaviour might increase with the cuts, particularly if the police have to reduce the number of officers because of the spending cuts. Can we really afford the proposed change?

If we take into account the cost of running the elections, the salary of the commissioner—it is a powerful role, which will presumably require substantial remuneration —the cost of his or her advisers, the administrative support, and the cost of the police and crime panel and its administrators, we have to ask whether the Government have made any estimate of the costs.

[Jessica Morden]

I very much agree, and I will come to that later. My hon. Friend makes the point very well.

In Gwent, the police authority costs just 0.6% of the total policing budget for each year. Can the Minister confirm that the running costs and the elections for the new system will not cost a penny more than that? The chair of the Devon and Cornwall police authority, who is a former returning officer, claims that elections alone will cost £1.9 million in his part of the world, which is £350,000 more than the existing police authority’s annual budget, or the equivalent of 50 police officers. No details of the costs have been forthcoming, so could the Minister address the issue and enlighten us?

My experience as an MP working with my local force and police authority, which are very proactive and accessible to the public, is that they are open to change and would certainly welcome debate with the Government on improving the current structure. They know better than anyone the current system’s strengths and weaknesses, and it is unbelievable that the Government are determined to throw away all the knowledge, expertise and experience that police authorities have acquired over the years. Given the financial constraints, why not just work with them to improve the system that we have?

The coalition seems to base its argument for elected commissioners on a survey that shows that only a small percentage of the public know about police authorities, but some Welsh police authority surveys undertaken over recent months seem to show otherwise. Will the Minister look at those surveys and the evidence that they have collected before becoming welded to this policy?

The Home Office consultation document indicates that the Government want candidates to come from a wide range of backgrounds, because they believe that the current system does not allow for that. That is bizarre, considering that one strength of the current system is the diversity of representation. For example, Gwent police authority is an independent organisation made up of 17 local representatives—councillors and independents—who hold the chief to account. The nine councillors come from the five unitary authorities, so each council is represented. The allocation of the nine council representatives reflects the actual votes cast by the electorate, so there is true political proportionality. As we all know, and as my hon. Friend the Member for Islwyn (Chris Evans) said, candidates from political parties, wealthy individuals and single-issue campaigners are most likely to mount the most serious election campaigns. That raises the question of why the Government want to replace a system characterised by greater accountability and diversity with the new proposed model, particularly when they will semi-duplicate that system anyway by setting up smaller crime and police panels.

The consultation document proposes the introduction of police and crime panels, but is the Minister happy that they have the right balance of powers and responsibilities to provide robust checks and balances in respect of police commissioners? Will they be strong enough to scrutinise and hold a commissioner to account, bearing in mind that the commissioner will set the budget and the precept, appoint the chief and set the force’s strategic direction? I am concerned that the police and crime panel will lack any teeth and will, in reality, have little say over the decisions made by the commissioner.

That leads me to one of the most worrying aspects of the Government’s proposal. There is a danger that the commissioner will focus on short-term populist measures and priorities and not have proper and responsible regard for the bigger picture now and in the longer term. For example, the four police authorities in Wales, together with their chief constables, are acknowledged leaders in working together to tackle extremism and serious organised crime, and that is a hidden service to the electorate. If a commissioner, who will always have an eye on the next election, is publicly elected with the mandate of bringing in an additional 200 police officers but the chief constable wants to use those resources to tackle organised crime, who would win? With each force having a commissioner, where is the incentive for cross-force collaboration? Does the Minister agree that it would be hugely dangerous if the productive and effective work done by Welsh forces, and the hidden services that they provide, were put in jeopardy?

In view of the number of elections in Wales—next year, we will have three all-out elections, two of which will be on the same day—is the Minister worried about low turnouts and the very real threat of leaving the door open to candidates who might have more extreme views? I would be interested to hear what he estimates the turnouts for those elections will be and whether he has had discussions on the issue with the Electoral Commission.

[Mr David]

An important principle of policing in this country has been the need to establish a consensus about policing priorities, and the need for democratic accountability and responsibility. Is my hon. Friend aware of any consultations that the Government have carried out with the Welsh Assembly Government? We could say that policing is a non-devolved matter, but increasingly we see policing measures in effect being, in part at least, the responsibility of the Welsh Assembly Government. We therefore need to ensure that we are all pulling in one direction. Has there been any such consultation?

[Jessica Morden]

My hon. Friend makes a very good point. The proposals will have very different effects on Wales and England. As the Minister is aware, the Welsh Assembly Government have direct responsibility for community safety matters, which results in the police in Wales working to different policy agendas from those in forces in England. I, too, would be grateful to hear what discussions the Minster has had with the Welsh Assembly Government about the proposals, and what their opinion on them is. Has he also taken into account the possible advancement of the devolved settlement? Finally, does he also plan to hold the election for directly elected commissioners on the same day as the local government elections in 2012, and has he discussed that with the Welsh Assembly Government?

To conclude, I have struggled to find anyone in Wales with any enthusiasm at all for the policy. The Western Mail has suggested that police authorities could be strengthened rather than abolished—a view that I share—because they represent a diversity of opinion, through several members, rather than one elected person with the power to wield a P45. The Welsh Local Government Association has called the idea half-baked, and has stated that it is a retrograde step, and that police and crime commissioners would be hugely damaging. The idea was rejected by the previous Government and there is no demand for change, I believe, from the public. The public care about front-line policing and our view is, “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it”: why not work with the current police authorities to improve the system we have, saving money and using the authorities’ expertise?

--- Later in debate ---

[Nick Herbert]

Again, I disagree with the hon. Gentleman. The chief constable has to represent the force and cover the whole area concerned. He succeeds in doing that, so why should not the elected individual who holds him to account? We are, of course, proposing the introduction of police and crime panels that draw on locally elected councillors to ensure that the local authorities in the police force’s area have representation in holding the commissioner to account, and independence as well. That will be one way of ensuring that voices within the whole police area are heard.

I will now continue to address the points made by the hon. Member for Newport East. I have talked about the consultation period and the fact that we conducted extensive pre-consultation ahead of the formal consultation period. Even those who would disagree with us about the proposals, such as the Association of Police Authorities, would, I am sure, agree that we have been very ready to talk to them about the detail of all this and to consult widely.

[Mr David]

Will the Minister give way?

[Nick Herbert]

Yes, but I am being left with little time in which to respond to these important points.

[Mr David]

The Minister is being very generous. On the issue of consultation, has there been any with the Welsh Assembly Government?

[Nick Herbert]

Yes, and I will come to that. There certainly has been consultation, and it is important that there should be.

The hon. Member for Newport East suggested that the idea of police and crime commissioners is opposed by a wide range of people, including the Association of Chief Police Officers. Actually, it is noticeable that it does not oppose the introduction of commissioners outright; it rightly expresses its concerns about operational independence. Nor, even, is the Association of Police Authorities—although it does not support the proposal—mounting a great campaign against the change. I think there is recognition that it makes sense to work with the Government to ensure that the design of the proposals will be right. That is a sensible way forward. The Government, after all, have a mandate in this respect. Both the Conservative party and the Liberal Democrats stood on a platform of reform of police authorities. The Conservative party wanted to introduce a directly elected individual; that was in our manifesto. The Liberal Democrats wanted to introduce direct elections to police authorities. Therefore we have a joint mandate and the proposal is part of the coalition agreement. Our views were very clear and formed part of the manifesto that we put to the country. We are entitled therefore to introduce the Bill and proceed with the policy.

Oral Answers to Questions

Wayne David Excerpts

Tuesday 15th June 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Blunt]

I notice that the previous Government had to reform the IPP arrangements in 2008, having introduced them in the Criminal Justice Act 2003. We inherit a very serious problem with IPP prisoners. We have 6,000 IPP prisoners, well over 2,500 of whom have exceeded their tariff point. Many cannot get on courses because our prisons are wholly overcrowded and unable to address offending behaviour. That is not a defensible position.

[Mr Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

In opposition, Conservative Members thought it was a good idea—in fact, they thought there was an extremely strong case—to build a new prison in north Wales. Is that still their view?

[Mr Blunt]

Yes.