Parliamentary Standards Act 2009

Wayne David Excerpts

Thursday 15th December 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

Many of us remember only too well the collective trauma experienced by the House during the previous Parliament over expenses. It is worth remembering that the then Prime Minister, my right hon. Friend the Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown), had support from both sides of the House when he introduced plans for an external and independent body to have responsibility for Members’ allowances. It was rightly seen that a system of self-regulation had been thoroughly discredited and that a fundamentally different approach was required—one that could command public confidence and one that meant establishing a body that was truly independent of Parliament. That body was the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority.

Today, the Opposition still strongly support that approach and are firmly behind the principles that underlie IPSA’s operation, but it is fair to say that because Parliament moved swiftly to address the wholly understandable public concerns about the House’s expenses regime, after IPSA was established there were a number of shortcomings in the administration of the new system. I am encouraged that IPSA has listened and that significant improvements have been made and are still being made. For instance, the system for the submission of duplicate documents relating to Members’ accommodation has been simplified and Members’ mileage claims are now much more straightforward. These are just two examples of how things have gradually improved over the past 12 months.

That is not to say that the process of improvement should come to an end. On the contrary, we need to consider carefully two reports that highlight the fact that ISPA can and should make further improvements. The first report is that from the National Audit Office, published in July. It suggested that IPSA ought to consider a number of points. For example, it stated that IPSA needed to consider how it could improve relations with MPs and provide reassurance that it was truly committed to doing all it could to facilitate our work as MPs. Similarly, it suggested that IPSA ought to consider the introduction of centralised procurement contracts. It was argued that such contracts would allow more progress to be made in achieving IPSA’s goal of a cost-effective scheme. Other points in that report are also worthy of consideration.

[John Mann (Bassetlaw) (Lab)]

I thank my hon. Friend for robustly supporting the coalition position in this debate, which I, too, endorse. However, does not his point about the National Audit Office go to the crux of the dilemma? There are many different views on what a good system would be. My personal preference would be for local supplies, rather than national supplies, to boost local economies; the National Audit Office, backed by some, is suggesting something centralised and national. Does that not go to the crux of the matter, and is that not precisely why IPSA should remain independent?

[Mr David]

My hon. Friend makes a good point, which underlines the point that IPSA should always effectively be independent of Parliament, as he says. The only point I would make—and which the National Audit Office has also made—is about the general principle of collective procurement, which could be done more effectively to save taxpayers’ money. IPSA has made advances in ensuring a cost-effective scheme, but more can be done, and this is a clear example.

The second report that we are discussing today is that from the Committee on Members’ Expenses. I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Windsor (Adam Afriyie) and his Committee for their assiduous work. Their report is reasonable in tone and contains a raft of practical proposals to improve IPSA’s performance. However, I have some reservations about aspects of the report. For example, I am somewhat concerned about the recommendation that a separate body be established within the House of Commons service. That body, the report says, would be independently regulated by IPSA, and

“transparency would ensure that it did not replicate the deficiencies of the old expenses system.”

I welcome those words of reassurance, which are honestly expressed, but I am not convinced that we should run the risk of creating a perception that MPs could once again exercise influence over their expenses. For me, independence means independence, full stop.

[Adam Afriyie]

I do not think there is any disagreement, actually. The recommendation is merely that the legislation should enable the separation of those functions, because IPSA is unique in the entire world in its existing set-up. The Committee goes on to suggest what we think might be the best way to work more cost-effectively, but that is not the recommendation. The recommendation is merely that the legislation should enable a separation to take place, just to tidy things up a little.

[Mr David]

I hear what the hon. Gentleman says, but it still worries me that we are talking about at least an aspect of IPSA’s work coming in-house, to this place. Indeed, recommendation 3 says clearly:

“The best arrangement would be for that separate body to be within the House of Commons Service”.

However, if that body is in the House of Commons service, it is under the control of Members of Parliament, and I do not think that is desirable, nor is it something that would be easily understood by the general public.

That said, the report makes a number of good practical suggestions. For example, it is suggested that IPSA should extend its use of direct payments to cover as near to 100% of transactions as possible. That is to be welcomed. It is proposed that Members’ office and staff budgets should be merged, which would also be welcome. The report proposes that IPSA should make it easier for MPs to find out online how much of each budget has been spent. That would be a step forward. It is also suggested that IPSA should always ensure that MPs’ staff should have their expenses reimbursed directly and that this reimbursement should be made promptly. We would all endorse that. Those are just some of the practical and positive suggestions that are well worth active consideration and, I hope, implementation.

There are many policies and proposals in the report that I believe require careful deliberation. However, because of that, I am of the view that simply approving all the recommendations in their entirety might not be the best approach. That is why I have sympathy with the amendment, tabled by Government Back Benchers, which asks that the report be considered by IPSA as part of its annual review. I also hope that the Government will not merely wrap the report in warm words, but ensure that active consideration is given to those proposals that relate directly to the Government—in particular, recommendation 2—or the duties of IPSA.

I believe that the House has begun the process of restoring the reputation of Members of Parliament in the eyes of the public. However, to be honest, we still have a long way to go. That is why I believe that IPSA’s independence must be unequivocally maintained and that this House should not have any determining influence over any aspect of its expenses regime.

[Bob Russell]

Would the hon. Gentleman like to follow that argument through? Had it not been for the determination of the hon. Member for Windsor (Adam Afriyie) in getting the House to agree that this Committee should be established in the first place—we should remember that the Front Benchers did not want this Committee to exist—we would not be having this debate now and we would not have been able to discuss the important points to which the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr David) has alluded, including allowing Members to make progress and enhancing public confidence. It is not thanks to Front Benchers, but thanks to the House collectively—and the hon. Member for Windsor particularly—that we are having this debate and that this Committee was set up in the first place.

[Mr David]

I certainly endorse that point. The House has been mature in its approach to the issue and, as I made clear at the start, I genuinely commend the work carried out by this Committee. I would make the point, however, that for the next stage, it is not for us to accept everything before us on a blanket basis; we should pass matters on for further in-depth scrutiny and appropriate implementation. That is my important point.

I come back to the central issue of the independence of IPSA. That is a cardinal principle, and I would not want any message to go out from this House, either deliberately or inadvertently, that undermines that independence. That is important both for the practical implementation of expenses and for public perception. The standing of Members of Parliament is, I believe, something that we are all genuinely concerned about.

Finally, we all recognise that the system needs to be improved and made more effective. That is why Labour Members and I personally welcome this report from the Committee on Members’ Expenses and why I shall support the amendment.

EU Council

Wayne David Excerpts

Monday 12th December 2011 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

As ever, I am grateful for her support.

[Mr Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

Is it correct that the Deputy Prime Minister said that he is not here because he does not want to be a distraction?

[The Prime Minister]

The point is that the Deputy Prime Minister and I agreed the negotiating strategy for the European Council, and that is important because it was the whole Government who were doing it at the Council.

Oral Answers to Questions

Wayne David Excerpts

Tuesday 15th November 2011 Commons Chamber

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

As I said earlier, it is a civic duty, and that will not change, and the offence of not providing information when requested to provide it will remain as well. I just think we need to pause and reflect on whether we think it necessary, on top of that, to create a new criminal offence of failing to apply to register to vote. Those who feel that it should be up to individual citizens whether or not they vote, should pause and reflect on whether it is necessary to criminalise people to get them on the register in the first place. I am not sure, bluntly, whether that is the right way forward.

[Mr Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

The Deputy Prime Minister has quoted the Electoral Commission, but when the Government publish their Bill on individual electoral registration will he take on board its advice and publish details on the implementation of IER and the necessary secondary legislation at the same time?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

Of course we are considering that very carefully, and of course we will wish to prove to this House that we have thought through all the necessary steps, such that each and every voter is properly approached, initially through individual contacts or approaches to households. People will canvass door-to-door to ensure that those who have moved or not yet registered have the opportunity to do so. As we debated last time at Deputy Prime Minister’s questions, the Electoral Commission had concerns about the opt-out system. That was its main concern, and I think we have provided satisfaction on it.

G20

Wayne David Excerpts

Monday 7th November 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

The Prime Minister has said that the action plan for growth and jobs includes many of the things that Britain is already doing. I can assume only that it is a very thin document. How many minutes were spent talking about job creation at the summit?

[The Prime Minister]

A great deal of the first day was spent talking about the condition of the world economy, and particularly the fact that economies in the developed world are obviously seeing very low rates of growth. I also had a meeting, I am pleased to report, with the leader of the TUC and other international trade unionists, to discuss specifically growth and jobs, and how we can try to prevent youth unemployment from rising in western European countries. I do not know whether all my predecessors always found time for such meetings at the G20, but I was delighted to have one.

Parliamentary Lobbying

Wayne David Excerpts

Wednesday 2nd November 2011 Westminster Hall

[Mr Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Newport West (Paul Flynn) on securing the debate, which has been a good one. He is a doughty campaigner and several important issues have been raised. Among the many important issues raised by the hon. Member for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire (Simon Hart) was that of unintended consequences. My hon. Friend the Member for Bassetlaw (John Mann) stressed the importance of the principle of transparency. The hon. Member for Harlow (Robert Halfon) made the point that there is a great deal of common ground between politicians in the House, and I shall revert to that. My hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) pointed out that lobbyists fulfil a useful role and that it is the question of regulation that concerns us. I also thank him for introducing us to a word with which I was not familiar—“lobbyacious.” Finally, we heard, briefly but pithily, from the hon. Member for Camborne and Redruth (George Eustice), who underlined the complexity of the subject and warned us to be careful not to introduce unintended consequences.

I hope that Members agree that we should all do our best to establish a genuine consensus in the House on how best to register lobbying activity. It is well worth remembering that how best to regulate lobbyists featured in the manifestos of all three main British political parties during the general election campaign. The Labour party stated:

“We will create a Statutory Register of Lobbyists to ensure complete transparency in their activities.”

The Liberal Democrat manifesto stated that the improper influence of lobbyists should be curbed by

“introducing a statutory register of lobbyists”.

Indeed, the Conservative manifesto said:

“We will regulate lobbying through introducing a statutory register of lobbyists and ensuring greater transparency.”

The coalition agreement also has a commitment to a statutory register.

I hope that the Minister will indicate when the long-waited consultation paper will see the light of day. I read with interest his interview in the current House magazine, and it was rather unfair of it to refer to him as “Nick Clegg’s babysitter”. [Hon. Members: “Aah.”] I am glad that hon. Members agree that that is a rather unfair description. I dare say that some would prefer to describe the Minister as “David Cameron’s handmaiden.”

In that interview, the Minister alluded to several other constitutional issues, which mean that the register of lobbyists has slipped from the Deputy Prime Minister’s initial target of later this year. I sincerely hope that the Minister’s work load will not prevent him from keeping his promise of at least a consultation document in the next few weeks. If he could provide us with a publication date today, that would be most helpful.

When that consultation document is published, I hope that there will be a widespread debate and that the Government will listen carefully to the views expressed by all.

[Robert Halfon]

Although the hon. Gentleman rightly urges the Government to take action on this and for us to fulfil our election manifesto commitment, does he not regret that his own party did not follow through the recommendations of the 2009 report of the Public Administration Committee?

[Mr David]

If the hon. Gentleman will bear with me, I will address that point in a moment.

It is important for the Government to learn from the unfortunate episodes that we have witnessed in this House in recent times. I also urge them to study carefully the experiences of other legislatures, particularly in Australia and Canada. There is no easy formula or one-size-fits-all approach—nothing can be taken off the shelf—but we can learn from what has happened in other countries.

I would like to make a few suggestions about the principles that I believe should underpin any future statutory register of lobbyists. Building on the cornerstone of transparency, to which several Members referred, the Public Administration Committee stated in its 2009 report that information in a statutory register must include

“the names of the individuals carrying out lobbying activity and of any organisation employing or hiring them, whether a consultancy, law firm, corporation or campaigning organisation.”

Secondly, it stated that the information should include,

“in the case of multi-client consultancies, the names of their clients.”

Thirdly, it recommended the inclusion of

“information about any public office previously held by an individual lobbyist—essentially, excerpts from their career history.”

Fourthly, the report said that there should be

“a list of the interests of decision makers within the public service (Ministers, senior civil servants and senior public servants) and summaries of their career histories outside the public service”.

Fifthly, it stated that there should be

“information about contacts between lobbyists and decision makers—essentially, diary records and minutes of meetings. The aim would be to cover all meetings and conversations between decision makers and outside interests.”

Those five points are a good starting point. Some will suggest that they do not go far enough, while others will say that they go too far. They are, however, a useful point at which to begin our discourse. As the hon. Member for Harlow suggested, some may wonder why the report was not implemented when Labour was in government. I shall pre-empt that argument by saying that, while it is true that Labour did not take up the Committee’s call for a statutory register, it nevertheless indicated in January 2010 that, if a voluntary system proved ineffectual, it would be necessary to go further. I suggest that the time has indeed come for us to go further.

There is a danger that our approach to this admittedly complex and difficult area could end up being too broad and general. We must also be mindful of unintended consequences, as a number of Members have said. We are all advocates and ambassadors for our constituents, and many of us support a wide range of organisations that do not fit the widely accepted definition of a lobbying organisation. We must be careful that we take that into account when we define which bodies and individuals should be included in a statutory register of lobbying interests.

Finally, a register of lobbyists will not wholly solve the problem of the exercise of inappropriate influence. Let us not forget that the friend of the right hon. Member for North Somerset (Dr Fox), Mr Adam Werritty, was not a lobbyist as such. If anything, that episode clearly demonstrates that it is necessary for us to have in place a number of safeguards that are vigorously enforced. A statutory register of lobbyists, however, would be a vital element in ensuring that faith is restored once again in our parliamentary democracy.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr David]

I simply make the point that we have an ideal opportunity to make progress now because there is a genuine political consensus. I therefore urge the Government to be constructive.

[Mr Harper]

Yes, and I am very pleased to do so.

The hon. Member for Newport West also referred to Ministers who take up roles on leaving office. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister strengthened the guidelines on that in the ministerial code he published last year. Ministers must seek the advice of the Advisory Committee on Business Appointments and they must abide by it. That was not previously the case. Ministers had to get the advice, but they did not have to abide by it. In addition, for the first time, my right hon. Friend introduced a ministerial code that bans former Ministers from lobbying for two years after leaving office. So, they are absolutely not allowed to go straight out of office, get a job and start lobbying the Government again. That is a very helpful step forward.

European Council

Wayne David Excerpts

Monday 24th October 2011 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

The key point about the European Union Act 2011 and the referendum lock that we put in place is that any passage of powers from Britain to Brussels results in a referendum. That is the key thing that we have delivered, which means that never again can we have a situation where, as with Maastricht or Lisbon, a treaty is passed that transfers powers from this House to somewhere else without the British people being asked first. I sometimes think that we have lost the ability to make clear what a significant change that is. That is the key thing that the referendum lock delivers, and I think everyone on this side of the House can be very proud of it.

[Mr Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

Following on from the last question, just a few months ago this House spent 42 and a half hours debating the European Union Bill, the purpose of which is to allow for referendums on the EU. Is there any chance of seeing a referendum in the near future on the EU at all?

[The Prime Minister]

The point is that if a Government propose to pass powers from this House to Brussels, they should ask the British people first. That is the simple principle that we have put into law. It is important that we try to establish clear rules for the use of referendums in a parliamentary democracy, and I absolutely believe that rule 1, line 1 is: “If you’re giving up powers that belong to the British people, you should ask them first.”

Oral Answers to Questions

Wayne David Excerpts

Tuesday 11th October 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Harper]

There is a very simple answer, and I know what the hon. Gentleman thinks it is. I do not agree with him, most Members of this House do not agree with him and we will do everything we can to make sure that this United Kingdom stays together.

[Mr Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

Because we have asymmetrical devolution in the United Kingdom, the application of law, as agreed by this Parliament, is different in different parts of the United Kingdom. Given that complexity, does the Minister believe it is possible to have different MPs voting on different pieces of legislation without creating total legislative confusion?

[Mr Harper]

First, may I welcome the hon. Gentleman to his new position? We had a number of conversations on these constitutional matters during the progress of the two previous pieces of legislation, and I look forward to more such conversations. As he rightly says, this is a complicated matter—I sometimes have to stress that to colleagues in this House who think it is simple—which is exactly why we have said that the commission will consist of experts who understand how this place works and can balance those complexities while making sure that we end up with a solution that is fairer to England as well as to the other parts of the United Kingdom.

Public Confidence in the Media and Police

Wayne David Excerpts

Wednesday 20th July 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

In The New York Times article of September last year it is stated:

“One former editor said Coulson talked freely”

with colleagues about phone hacking. Given that the Prime Minister has read the article, how can he say he had no new evidence of a link between Coulson and hacking?

[The Prime Minister]

I discussed these allegations at the time and there was no proper foundation for them. That is not just my view, but the view of many people who followed the issue. Of course, there is an investigation under way. I could not have been franker. If it turns out that Andy Coulson knew about hacking, it will not just be a matter of profound regret and of profound apology—an apology that I have given today. It will also be an issue for criminal prosecution.

European Council

Wayne David Excerpts

Monday 27th June 2011 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

I think my hon. Friend is entirely right. The Governor of the Bank of England spoke powerfully about this and has set out what the liabilities of British banks are in terms of Greece. We need the stress tests to be transparent, and we then need them to be acted on by making sure that those banks that need to build up their reserves do so. One of the things I wanted to secure at the European Council was to ensure that the conclusions were very tough on this, because at the same time as they are operating these stress tests and arguing for more capital to go into the banks, some European powers are trying to water down the Basel requirements. It seems to me to be completely illogical to try, on the one hand, to strengthen a banking system to withstand pressure in the eurozone, and then to start weakening it on the other. I am thankful that the conclusions are pretty clear on that point.

[Mr Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

I welcome what the Prime Minister said about Croatia coming closer to the European union, but was there any reference to Turkey?

[The Prime Minister]

In terms of future membership of the EU, I think I am right in saying that the conclusions referred only to Croatia, which is completing its negotiations. There was a reference to Serbia’s European perspective, because with the arrest of Ratko Mladic I think that it has taken another step towards European membership. There was no specific mention of Turkey, but as the hon. Gentleman knows, I strongly support Turkey’s membership of the European Union.

Oral Answers to Questions

Wayne David Excerpts

Wednesday 15th June 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Letwin]

Yes, I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend. It is extremely important to point out that the purpose of the big society bank, under Sir Ronald Cohen’s direction, is to go beyond the traditional sources of finance and persuade, for example, large charities that have considerable investments to start to reinvest in the voluntary and community sector so that they can get good returns on, for example, social impact bonds.

[Mr Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

How long will it take for funds from the big society bank to reach the front line?

[Mr Letwin]

That very much depends, of course, on the state aid process, which, as the hon. Gentleman will know from his own experience, we cannot totally determine. In order not to waste time, however, the investment committee that has been set up within the Big Lottery Fund will begin to disburse funds from dormant accounts as soon as they are made available and released. I hope that that will happen within a few months.