Police Commissioners (Wales)

Wayne David Excerpts

Tuesday 14th September 2010 Westminster Hall

[Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab)]

Thank you for the chance to have this debate, Mr Walker. I am grateful to other hon. Members from Wales for coming along.

Few issues exercise my constituents more than crime, and I am sure we all agree that policing is far too important for us to get it wrong. That is why I am grateful for the opportunity to have this debate and to question the Minister. I say that not least because the Home Office consultation “Policing in the 21st century: reconnecting police and the people” lasted only eight weeks, which is less than the 12 weeks set out in the Cabinet Office guidelines. The consultation was also done over the summer holiday period, thereby restricting consultation on this hugely important issue before the Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill begins its progress.

With any new proposal on law and order, we all ask ourselves the fundamental question whether it will allow us to work better together to cut crime. The proposal for directly elected police commissioners will not do that, and it is a costly diversion. The proposal to remove police authorities and to replace them with directly elected police commissioners is opposed by the Local Government Association, the Association of Chief Police Officers, the Association of Police Authorities and, according to some reports, many Tory and Liberal Democrat councillors—not least councillors, and indeed magistrates, who have given police authorities valuable service. We then realise that there are serious concerns about the Government’s proposal, and they need addressing.

Those councillors, myself and other Opposition Members feel that the proposal has the potential to politicise policing, to impinge on the availability of funding for front-line police services, to be unrepresentative of the community and to go against the coalition’s desire for localism. If we set those concerns against the backdrop of the belief that the proposal would be hard to reverse once it had been implemented, we start to fear that it could damage the future of policing.

[Mr Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

Is my hon. Friend aware of any evidence at all of a public appetite for such a change?

[Jessica Morden]

I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention. I am not aware of any public appetite. I was about to say that, like all hon. Members, I have frequent conversations with constituents about crime, antisocial behaviour and policing, and I have yet to encounter a clamour in my constituency for an elected police commissioner. My constituents want more police out on the beat preventing crime; the last thing they want is another politician. That is what the previous Government understood when they consulted. Although the present system is not perfect, substantial progress was made, and crime is down. It is no coincidence that there are now more police and police community support officers. Following on from my hon. Friend’s intervention, I would be grateful if the Minister could provide evidence of the appetite for change.

I am at a loss to know why the Government’s policy is being prioritised when forces are facing one of the most challenging times financially because of the coalition’s cuts. Surely, the priority is to keep as many police on the beat as possible. Will the Minister give me a breakdown of the cost of his proposals, because Ministers have not addressed the issue in any forum that I have attended? In a recent answer, the Under-Secretary of State for Wales told me that electing police commissioners and the new crime and police panels would cost not a penny more than the existing police authorities, which is clearly not the case. The LGA estimates that the elections could cost as much as £54 million. Today, the president of the Police Superintendents Association of England and Wales has said that crime and antisocial behaviour might increase with the cuts, particularly if the police have to reduce the number of officers because of the spending cuts. Can we really afford the proposed change?

If we take into account the cost of running the elections, the salary of the commissioner—it is a powerful role, which will presumably require substantial remuneration —the cost of his or her advisers, the administrative support, and the cost of the police and crime panel and its administrators, we have to ask whether the Government have made any estimate of the costs.

[Jessica Morden]

I very much agree, and I will come to that later. My hon. Friend makes the point very well.

In Gwent, the police authority costs just 0.6% of the total policing budget for each year. Can the Minister confirm that the running costs and the elections for the new system will not cost a penny more than that? The chair of the Devon and Cornwall police authority, who is a former returning officer, claims that elections alone will cost £1.9 million in his part of the world, which is £350,000 more than the existing police authority’s annual budget, or the equivalent of 50 police officers. No details of the costs have been forthcoming, so could the Minister address the issue and enlighten us?

My experience as an MP working with my local force and police authority, which are very proactive and accessible to the public, is that they are open to change and would certainly welcome debate with the Government on improving the current structure. They know better than anyone the current system’s strengths and weaknesses, and it is unbelievable that the Government are determined to throw away all the knowledge, expertise and experience that police authorities have acquired over the years. Given the financial constraints, why not just work with them to improve the system that we have?

The coalition seems to base its argument for elected commissioners on a survey that shows that only a small percentage of the public know about police authorities, but some Welsh police authority surveys undertaken over recent months seem to show otherwise. Will the Minister look at those surveys and the evidence that they have collected before becoming welded to this policy?

The Home Office consultation document indicates that the Government want candidates to come from a wide range of backgrounds, because they believe that the current system does not allow for that. That is bizarre, considering that one strength of the current system is the diversity of representation. For example, Gwent police authority is an independent organisation made up of 17 local representatives—councillors and independents—who hold the chief to account. The nine councillors come from the five unitary authorities, so each council is represented. The allocation of the nine council representatives reflects the actual votes cast by the electorate, so there is true political proportionality. As we all know, and as my hon. Friend the Member for Islwyn (Chris Evans) said, candidates from political parties, wealthy individuals and single-issue campaigners are most likely to mount the most serious election campaigns. That raises the question of why the Government want to replace a system characterised by greater accountability and diversity with the new proposed model, particularly when they will semi-duplicate that system anyway by setting up smaller crime and police panels.

The consultation document proposes the introduction of police and crime panels, but is the Minister happy that they have the right balance of powers and responsibilities to provide robust checks and balances in respect of police commissioners? Will they be strong enough to scrutinise and hold a commissioner to account, bearing in mind that the commissioner will set the budget and the precept, appoint the chief and set the force’s strategic direction? I am concerned that the police and crime panel will lack any teeth and will, in reality, have little say over the decisions made by the commissioner.

That leads me to one of the most worrying aspects of the Government’s proposal. There is a danger that the commissioner will focus on short-term populist measures and priorities and not have proper and responsible regard for the bigger picture now and in the longer term. For example, the four police authorities in Wales, together with their chief constables, are acknowledged leaders in working together to tackle extremism and serious organised crime, and that is a hidden service to the electorate. If a commissioner, who will always have an eye on the next election, is publicly elected with the mandate of bringing in an additional 200 police officers but the chief constable wants to use those resources to tackle organised crime, who would win? With each force having a commissioner, where is the incentive for cross-force collaboration? Does the Minister agree that it would be hugely dangerous if the productive and effective work done by Welsh forces, and the hidden services that they provide, were put in jeopardy?

In view of the number of elections in Wales—next year, we will have three all-out elections, two of which will be on the same day—is the Minister worried about low turnouts and the very real threat of leaving the door open to candidates who might have more extreme views? I would be interested to hear what he estimates the turnouts for those elections will be and whether he has had discussions on the issue with the Electoral Commission.

[Mr David]

An important principle of policing in this country has been the need to establish a consensus about policing priorities, and the need for democratic accountability and responsibility. Is my hon. Friend aware of any consultations that the Government have carried out with the Welsh Assembly Government? We could say that policing is a non-devolved matter, but increasingly we see policing measures in effect being, in part at least, the responsibility of the Welsh Assembly Government. We therefore need to ensure that we are all pulling in one direction. Has there been any such consultation?

[Jessica Morden]

My hon. Friend makes a very good point. The proposals will have very different effects on Wales and England. As the Minister is aware, the Welsh Assembly Government have direct responsibility for community safety matters, which results in the police in Wales working to different policy agendas from those in forces in England. I, too, would be grateful to hear what discussions the Minster has had with the Welsh Assembly Government about the proposals, and what their opinion on them is. Has he also taken into account the possible advancement of the devolved settlement? Finally, does he also plan to hold the election for directly elected commissioners on the same day as the local government elections in 2012, and has he discussed that with the Welsh Assembly Government?

To conclude, I have struggled to find anyone in Wales with any enthusiasm at all for the policy. The Western Mail has suggested that police authorities could be strengthened rather than abolished—a view that I share—because they represent a diversity of opinion, through several members, rather than one elected person with the power to wield a P45. The Welsh Local Government Association has called the idea half-baked, and has stated that it is a retrograde step, and that police and crime commissioners would be hugely damaging. The idea was rejected by the previous Government and there is no demand for change, I believe, from the public. The public care about front-line policing and our view is, “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it”: why not work with the current police authorities to improve the system we have, saving money and using the authorities’ expertise?

--- Later in debate ---

[Nick Herbert]

Again, I disagree with the hon. Gentleman. The chief constable has to represent the force and cover the whole area concerned. He succeeds in doing that, so why should not the elected individual who holds him to account? We are, of course, proposing the introduction of police and crime panels that draw on locally elected councillors to ensure that the local authorities in the police force’s area have representation in holding the commissioner to account, and independence as well. That will be one way of ensuring that voices within the whole police area are heard.

I will now continue to address the points made by the hon. Member for Newport East. I have talked about the consultation period and the fact that we conducted extensive pre-consultation ahead of the formal consultation period. Even those who would disagree with us about the proposals, such as the Association of Police Authorities, would, I am sure, agree that we have been very ready to talk to them about the detail of all this and to consult widely.

[Mr David]

Will the Minister give way?

[Nick Herbert]

Yes, but I am being left with little time in which to respond to these important points.

[Mr David]

The Minister is being very generous. On the issue of consultation, has there been any with the Welsh Assembly Government?

[Nick Herbert]

Yes, and I will come to that. There certainly has been consultation, and it is important that there should be.

The hon. Member for Newport East suggested that the idea of police and crime commissioners is opposed by a wide range of people, including the Association of Chief Police Officers. Actually, it is noticeable that it does not oppose the introduction of commissioners outright; it rightly expresses its concerns about operational independence. Nor, even, is the Association of Police Authorities—although it does not support the proposal—mounting a great campaign against the change. I think there is recognition that it makes sense to work with the Government to ensure that the design of the proposals will be right. That is a sensible way forward. The Government, after all, have a mandate in this respect. Both the Conservative party and the Liberal Democrats stood on a platform of reform of police authorities. The Conservative party wanted to introduce a directly elected individual; that was in our manifesto. The Liberal Democrats wanted to introduce direct elections to police authorities. Therefore we have a joint mandate and the proposal is part of the coalition agreement. Our views were very clear and formed part of the manifesto that we put to the country. We are entitled therefore to introduce the Bill and proceed with the policy.