Cass Review

Debate between Victoria Atkins and Richard Fuller

Monday 15th April 2024 Commons Chamber

[Victoria Atkins]

I thank the hon. Lady for her thoughtful question, because she rightly lists some of the mental health conditions that both Dr Cass and professionals in this area have realised can be part of the complex needs of children and young people who are asking questions of their identity and about their path in life. On funding, the financial value of the contract last year with the Tavistock was £9.3 million, but for this financial year NHS England has committed some £17.1 million for the two new hubs for gender services. Of course, they will keep this under review as we build up the services across the country in the ways envisaged in the report.

[Richard Fuller (North East Bedfordshire) (Con)]

Let me add my thanks to Dr Hilary Cass for her review. Having listened to this Secretary of State today, I am confident that young people in this situation are in safe hands as she implements the recommendations. However, I wish to ask her about accountability, because what we have seen in the NHS with previous scandals, be it the contaminated blood scandal or Mid Staffordshire, is that accountability is a little slippery. Accountability is not just about lessons being learnt; it is about people being held to account for what they have done. So will my right hon. Friend be looking at ways in which there is room for people to be struck off if found to be wrong, for managers to be sacked and, in certain circumstances, for legal action to be taken?

[Victoria Atkins]

I completely understand my hon. Friend’s desire for accountability. I just remind us all that some clinicians have acted in a morally exemplary way, trying to blow the whistle on practices they observe. He and I, and, I hope, others, want to ensure that clinicians who have not acted in accordance with their professional duties are held to account. As I say, ongoing conversations are taking place with the independent regulators, but I suspect that they have very much understood the way in which the House is viewing this and the seriousness with which we view clinicians who have not abided by their professional duties in this regard.

Finance (No. 2) Bill

Debate between Victoria Atkins and Richard Fuller

Committee of the whole House
Tuesday 18th April 2023 Commons Chamber

[Victoria Atkins]

Yes, of course, but we have to work with the US Administration this week, next week and the year after next. That is why, with the US having its own rules and with its encouragement that these global standards should be applied, we are in lockstep with other countries in implementing this rule. I would just make the point that this is unprecedented; this is new and we have to be realistic. A hundred years ago we did not have multinational groups operating in the way that they do today, or in the way they will in five or 10 years’ time. We as an international community are trying to deal with some of the aggressive tax planning that we have seen multinational groups indulge in. We want to raise the floor, and those economies have signed up to this. They are part of the 135 countries that have committed themselves to this agreement. That is what was so important about the agreement, and these taxes will apply in those jurisdictions even if they have not implemented it.

[Richard Fuller (North East Bedfordshire) (Con)]

I am grateful to the Minister for giving way, and I apologise for not being here for the start of her speech. Can I just pick up on her remark that these countries have “committed” to this? A commitment in words to an international treaty is not the same as a commitment to enactment in domestic legislation. This is the point that my right hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset (Mr Rees-Mogg) was making. In the United States it is clear that although there might be an international intent to enact this legislation, there is certainly no legislative intent that it should be passed into US law. I have other points to make but I will finish on that point and simply ask the Minister for her comment on that.

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[Victoria Atkins]

First, this is an international agreement and nobody has forced the US, or anyone else, to sign up. As I say, 135 countries have signed up to it and a significant number are already implementing it or bringing forward legislation to do so. Indeed, the US Administration have maintained their commitment to align their rules with the pillar two standards. Until that happens, however, the OECD inclusive framework members, including the US, have agreed on how the US rules and the pillar two rules should interact to ensure that US multinationals are subject to the same standard as groups in other countries.

The long and the short of it is that we should be proud of the fact that we in the United Kingdom have helped to shape—and will continue to shape—these rules, precisely because we are able to work in unison with other large economies. As a result, we have been able to retain the corporate tax levers that we care so much about, such as research and development tax credits and the full expensing policy that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor announced at Budget, and to ensure that issues specific to the UK financial sector are identified and addressed.

[Richard Fuller]

On the Minister’s point about being proud to implement this, I would say that the shadow Minister, representing the high-tax Labour party, might be happy to implement it, but I am not sure that I would have quite the same degree of enthusiasm as a Conservative. I want to probe a bit deeper on a fundamental question that the Minister gave an interesting answer to, which is about how the United States’ interpretation of this is going to be held in the international context. Was she saying that the other countries in the international community that have signed up to it have effectively agreed that America does not need to go any further than its existing legislation in order to meet the requirements of this international standard? Or is she saying that there is still a requirement for the United States to enact it? If it is the latter, does she agree that the UK should not go forward and make its own changes until the United States makes those changes?

[Victoria Atkins]

I remind my hon. Friend that this is a minimum floor of 15%, which is below the lowest rate of corporation tax payable in this country, 19%, and below the 25% corporation tax we are setting for both this financial year and the next financial year in this Bill.

The countries most affected by this change are those that set lower rates of corporation tax. This international agreement is important because it means, when our constituents ask us why a particular tech giant has headquartered itself somewhere other than the UK while making enormous profits on its activities here—my hon. Friend the Member for North East Bedfordshire (Richard Fuller) will appreciate that I am not naming any businesses—we can say that we have joined an international agreement to ensure that such profit shifting does not occur. In the shifting sands of the 21st century and beyond we, as an international community, have to find ways of ensuring that companies cannot engage in profit shifting.

I normally try not to reference Labour Front Benchers, but my hon. Friend the Member for North East Bedfordshire mentioned them. Through this Finance Bill—and I know he fundamentally believes in this—we are taking a fiscally responsible approach to taxation. We understand that those with the broadest shoulders should bear the greatest burden of taxation, but we want to do it in a way that encourages growth and investment, and encourages businesses to set up and trade in our economy. Full expensing, R&D tax reliefs and the measures we introduced into the OECD agreement because of the concerns voiced by the insurance sector—these are examples of how we have been able to lead the international community in these negotiations and influence how the rules interact with our needs as a country.

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[Victoria Atkins]

On the complexity point, having set my three objectives, of course I acknowledge that there will be times of tension between fairness and simplicity. Indeed, I said that in the Budget debate and on Second Reading. We believe it is fair to have a spectrum of corporation tax thresholds between 19% and 25% as businesses grow and accrue profits, but I fully admit that does not make it simple. The balance the Government have to strike is where there might be tension between fairness and simplicity. Of course, we always want to ensure that fairness prevails.

I take my right hon. Friend’s point about complexity, but I gently remind him that these enormous multinational groups have armies of lawyers and accountants looking after their affairs. One might say that many of them have been able to shift their profits in this way because they are able to conduct that analysis. I should say that they are doing it completely lawfully, and there is no allegation of misfeasance, but we wish to bring forward this international agreement.

In the 21st century, we should not be frivolous or dismissive about encouraging businesses to invest in plant, machinery and people. I know my right hon. Friend is not being frivolous or dismissive, but this is not a game. If we can encourage multinational groups to come and do more business here, to invest in our workforce and in other businesses, that would be a great thing for the UK economy. This international agreement is about trying to introduce a level playing field in 135 countries to ensure multinationals are taxed fairly in each jurisdiction.

Finally, if we do not implement this measure, the top-up tax that these groups would have paid to the UK will be collected by other countries. This important agreement was reached by the Prime Minister when he was Chancellor, during our G7 presidency, and we want to enact it in this Finance Bill to enable it to take effect.

[Richard Fuller]

As has been mentioned, the Minister is being extremely generous in providing answers to some of these important questions. This may be a little niche, but may I take her back to the experience of the United States? A large number of US multinational companies, such as Apple and others that will be covered by this measure, held their cash balances offshore and did not take them back to the US because of the levels of corporation tax. Those levels were reduced under President Trump from 33% to 21% or 25%, I believe, but then in addition a special law was introduced providing for a 15.5% repatriation tax. That one-off tax enabled or incentivised companies such as Apple to bring their resources back to the US and pay tax there. Under the specifications both within the UK and under our international agreements, will what she is asking us to support today enable the UK to make one-off changes that might be in the specific interests of our corporations to help them bring back capital here? She may not know that—

[Victoria Atkins]

I hope I have understood my hon. Friend correctly. I am always loth to draw direct comparisons, particularly at the Dispatch Box, between the way in which the US conducts its tax affairs and the way we do so, as the systems are different. He has alighted upon the changes that the previous President made. The current President has also indicated that he wishes to make changes, albeit perhaps in a different direction. I hope my hon. Friend will appreciate my being cautious before giving an answer. I do not know whether he is referring to the corporate alternative minimum tax and the global intangible low-taxed income provisions. If I may, I will write to him on this, because it is incredibly technical and I want to ensure that I answer him accurately.

Having taken that final intervention, I am very conscious that although this is a large piece of legislation, colleagues are rightly scrutinising it. I shall sit down now so that they have a chance to have their say on it. I ask that clauses 5 to 15, and 121 to 277, and schedules 14 to 18 stand part of the Bill.

Finance (No. 2) Bill

Debate between Victoria Atkins and Richard Fuller

2nd reading
Wednesday 29th March 2023 Commons Chamber

[Victoria Atkins]

I am sensing from my hon. Friend that perhaps I have to convince him. I can tell him that 135 countries have signed the agreement.

My hon. Friend’s question may well extend to implementation; I know from listening to colleagues that there are concerns about that. We are acting in unison with other countries. EU member states are legally obliged by a directive to implement the measure by 31 December this year. Things are moving very fast. Germany published its draft legislation last week, showing its full intent to implement the directive; it joins Sweden and the Netherlands in doing so. Other countries implementing to the same timescale include Japan, Korea and Canada. In its Budget yesterday, Canada made the point that

“the multilateral framework for the global minimum tax regime is now being put in place.”

I understand the concerns that colleagues have raised about implementation and the timing thereof, but we are very much working in unison with other countries. Importantly, because of the position that we are taking, we can help to shape the rules.

[Richard Fuller (North East Bedfordshire) (Con)]

In enumerating all those countries, the Minister has covered approximately 20% of the global 100 multinationals. There are still 80 that are not covered by the countries that she has mentioned, the most important of which is of course the United States, which is having tremendous problems in fulfilling its signature to the agreement with the OECD. Can she say at the Dispatch Box whether she will be open to accepting an amendment in Committee, if such a provision is not in the Bill, to the effect that the United Kingdom will implement these changes only when all the major OECD countries have done so?

[Victoria Atkins]

I regret that I cannot undertake to do so. As my hon. Friend will know, we have had to scorecard the impact of this measure, and I have looked carefully into the implementation dates precisely because of the concerns that right hon. and hon. Friends have raised. I understand why my hon. Friend cites the US, but the United States already has rules that require US-headquartered groups to pay a minimum level of tax on their foreign activities.

We believe very strongly that acting alongside others is crucial to meeting the aims of this global reform. I know that there are certain points of tension with particular sectors, but we can point—perhaps in Committee, if not now—to examples of our ability to shape the rules in order to answer the very reasonable needs and requests of sectors that are so critical to the UK economy.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Victoria Atkins and Richard Fuller

Tuesday 7th February 2023 Commons Chamber

[Victoria Atkins]

On the point about the deaths that the hon. Lady understandably raises, we have made referrals to the Independent Office for Police Conduct in relation to those 10 events. The first referral was in March 2019. In the eight concluded investigations, no evidence has been found of misconduct by any HMRC officer, but we are very sensitive to the pressures that people are under, which is precisely why we have the extra support teams in place: teams of trained advisers who can, where appropriate, support taxpayers towards voluntary and community organisations that can help. Of course, people can also ask for help such as time to pay.

[Richard Fuller (North East Bedfordshire) (Con)]

Whatever the hopes were on the loan charge scheme’s introduction, the process has now gone on for a considerable time, raising questions about its efficacy and drawing HMRC into areas of moral hazard. Will my hon. Friend look at ways in which this HMRC scheme can be drawn to a conclusion?

[Victoria Atkins]

May I acknowledge my hon. Friend’s work as Economic Secretary and thank him for it? The difficulty is that a large sum of money is still outstanding from these disputes. We have had an independent review of the matter, through which we have been able to reduce the number of people affected, but the issue of outstanding tax remains. I encourage anyone affected by these historic issues to please talk to HMRC so that we can find a resolution for both sides.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Victoria Atkins and Richard Fuller

Tuesday 20th December 2022 Commons Chamber

[Victoria Atkins]

I hope that, in the spirit of Christmas cheer, the hon. Lady will accept that the trade and co-operation agreement is the world’s biggest zero-tariff, zero-quota trade deal. It provides a strong base for UK businesses to trade with the EU. We continue to support businesses trading with the EU, as well as helping them seize new opportunities with fast-growing economies around the world through our free trade agreements.

[Richard Fuller (North East Bedfordshire) (Con)]

The Chancellor was absolutely right in Edinburgh to include environmental, social and governance ratings agencies within the regulatory perimeter. But will he ensure that in the guidance, ESG objectives are consistent with the long-term actuarial goals of pension funds, to ensure that money is available in 20 or 30 years’ time, when people wish to retire?