Scotland: General Election and Constitutional Future

Tony Lloyd Excerpts

Wednesday 17th March 2021 Commons Chamber

[Tony Lloyd (Rochdale) (Lab) [V]]

A happy St Patrick’s Day to you too, Madam Deputy Speaker.

May I begin with this point? It is roughly the same distance from Greater Manchester to London as it is to Edinburgh or Glasgow, yet the travel time is considerably more—almost half as much again—to those great Scottish cities than it is to London. That is indicative of a problem facing the north of England and Scotland: the failure of Governments of different descriptions, but particularly the Conservative-led Government, over the past 10 years to address the needs of every part of this island of ours, its nations and regions. I empathise with the sense of resentment in Scotland about a Government who ignore the needs of many people, because that is exactly how many people in the north of England feel as well.

We have more in common than empathy. There was a time when northern MPs worked hard with Scottish Labour MPs to challenge a Conservative Government and a Labour Government to work together to bring about solutions that both Scotland and the north needed, but we do not see that now. The motive of SNP MPs is to talk up independence at the expense of major issues such as universal credit, job creation, and investment, both in industries and services and in our children’s education and training.

We had those things in common, but we have more in common than that. I grew up in a city region where the influence of Scots was not romantic but real. As a young man, I was at school with people from Scottish families. During my early working life in industry, I met engineers and printers from Scotland. I met people in the teaching profession who had come down from Scotland and worked in our universities as academics. People worked together in different areas. I worked closely with many Scots in our trade union movement, and they made an important and valuable contribution. Their attitude was similar to ours, and in politics my party has always benefited, in Greater Manchester and across the north of Scotland, from many Scots who played a role.

I cannot think of a time when there was not a Scottish Member of Parliament in the region—we now have the hon. Member for Stretford and Urmston (Kate Green). There have always been Scottish Members of Parliament, including the late Jim Dobbin, who was MP for Heywood and Middleton. That mattered, because they had similar values to us, unlike one home counties-based Conservative —I will not name them—who, many years ago, travelled up to the north and said, “I love coming to the north, Tony. It’s so terribly real up there.” Well, it was very real for me, because I grew up there and have lived most of my life there. The Scots understood that; they were our partners because they shared those values. That matters, because it is why, even now, 60% of Scotland’s trade is with England. That matters enormously because, in the end, taking away the importance of London, the north of England and Scotland trade with each other. If we were to see Scotland in the European Union, that would devastate the trade between Scotland and the north of England; it would be crippling for both sides. That does matter because it is jobs, it is the future, and that matters.

There is an answer. It is to work together essentially for the devolved Britain that I want to see—power, yes, for the Scottish Parliament, but power too for the north of England, the north-west, the north-east, Yorkshire and Humberside. That different constitutional settlement can allow us to work together. It is the real answer to the problems of Scotland and the north-west of England.

Draft Scotland Act 1998 (Transfer of Functions to the Scottish Ministers etc.) Order 2020

Tony Lloyd Excerpts

Monday 2nd March 2020 General Committees

[Tony Lloyd (Rochdale) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Sharma. Neither I nor the Minister anticipate any dissent, but I have a number of technical questions about the draft order. I will be grateful for a response.

Extra provision for those who have left care is obviously welcome. It is important to recognise the extra burden faced when obtaining employment by those who come through the care system anywhere in this United Kingdom. Will the Minister state for the record what I think is the case, which is that residence in Scotland will be a necessary condition of being able to apply for the grants, but anyone who has come through the care system in any part of the United Kingdom—England, Wales or Northern Ireland—will be eligible to apply for, and to be granted, the same facilities as those who have come through the care system in Scotland?

My second question is slightly more difficult. Probably something in the order of 700,000 people in Scotland are on a zero-hours contract. Such new and unusual forms of employment contract lead to very different work-life balances from those we would have assumed in the past. Clearly, there may be complications for those on low or zero hours in having their employment status recognised for the purposes of the grants. Can the grants be extended to people in that situation? Obviously, these unusual contracts exist in problematic work all over the UK, and it would be difficult—indeed, unfair—for those who are making their best effort to get into the world of employment to find themselves shut out of the scheme because of technicalities.

My final point is arguably much more political. We know that one issue we still face is low pay in work. The grants—£400 for those with children, £250 for those without—are a powerful incentive and go some way to recognising the real costs of moving into the world of work for those who do not have previous experience. Had the Government accepted the minimum wage of £10 an hour proposed by the Labour party during the last election, the uplift would have been considerably bigger, putting £2 billion into the Scottish economy and in effect floating a considerable number of those seeking work way above the level of the grants.

I do not want to be churlish and pretend that this scheme is not welcome, but I hope the Minister accepts that the politics of low pay and of bringing the whole of these four nations of ours up to an acceptable working wage is real. For younger people aged between 18 and 20, the living wage will be little more than £6.45 an hour. That is a low wage by any standard. Clearly, the capacity to lift those people beyond that would make a real difference. Nevertheless, we give our wholehearted support to the order.

Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2019 Section 3(5)

Tony Lloyd Excerpts

Wednesday 16th October 2019 Commons Chamber

[Mr Walker]

I do not accept that characterisation. The Government have always been clear that we want to see devolved Government restored and that this deadline set out in the Act of the 21st would be when legislation would have to be brought forward if the Executive were not in place. Of course it is right that we are engaging with the parties—as I suspect any Government of any colour would be doing—to try to restore the Executive and Assembly, and we should continue to do that right up to the deadline.

As the hon. Lady notes, the current period for Executive formation expires on Monday, 21 October, and in the event that the institutions have not been restored, we will be required to extend the Act by statutory instrument. On this, I want to be absolutely clear with the political parties in Northern Ireland: this would not be a good outcome. Northern Ireland needs political decision making. The Assembly has had over two and a half years to reach a compromise and get Stormont back up and running, and the people of Northern Ireland are sick and tired of continued delay.

[Tony Lloyd (Rochdale) (Lab)]

I understand why the Secretary of State is not with us tonight, but can the Minister confirm that there is no part of this country of ours that will be more affected by either a deal on Brexit or, worse, no deal on Brexit? The Secretary of State committed to come to the House and give a clear indication of what powers he would need to take in the event of any outcome of Brexit. We have not yet seen this before the House. Can the Minister guarantee that at a very early stage we will see what legislation is necessary to ensure that we have an orderly exit with a deal and, even more importantly, without a deal?

--- Later in debate ---

[Tony Lloyd (Rochdale) (Lab)]

I begin by asking the Minister to respond to this debate. Many important questions have been asked and will be asked in this debate, and he was not able to respond to the questions raised in our debate on the previous report.

[Mr Robin Walker]

I was timed out by other speeches in our previous debate but, if the Chair is happy to make time, I would be happy to provide a closing statement.

[Tony Lloyd]

That is important, because the House will address some substantive issues tonight and we need answers.

The Minister rightly said it is now over 1,000 days since the Stormont Assembly and the Stormont Executive last functioned, which is outrageous. It is almost unrecognisable in terms of modern democratic governance.

If not for other factors, I would be talking tonight about the failure of the political system to reform the education of our young people in Northern Ireland. I would be talking about the failure to reform the health service, and the fact that the Bengoa report is now receding dramatically in the rear-view mirror of life. That is, quite frankly, tragic because it is letting down patients, as the health service in Northern Ireland now sees increasing waiting lists and other things that are unacceptable.

Mental health provision in Northern Ireland is grossly inadequate. If there is one statistic that ought to frighten Members on both sides of the House, it is that more people have died since the troubles through suicide than died during the troubles—that figure is dramatic but true. It is immeasurably sad, and we ought to dwell on that. It is a failure of politicians of all stripes in Northern Ireland.

[Emma Little Pengelly]

I absolutely agree with the shadow Secretary of State about mental health, on which we urgently need more investment. Northern Ireland has a much higher need than the average across the United Kingdom, and it is only growing—of course we need investment in mental health across the UK.

The shadow Secretary of State says that the Bengoa report is disappearing—I refer the House to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests, as my husband is the permanent secretary at the Department of Health. Fortunately, the Northern Ireland Executive agreed the Bengoa recommendations. They are very high level, but that policy framework is currently being implemented. It is important for clarity to make sure that people are fully aware of that, but we need Ministers back because health and education are suffering enormously.

[Tony Lloyd]

I think the hon. Lady and I are in agreement. Not enough is being done and the political decision-making capacity is not there. These things are outrageous and tragic in their own right, but of course the reality is that we also have two dates approaching very quickly: 21 October and the things that will move forward on the back of that and, of course, 31 October. I wish to talk about the two events that those dates touch on.

First, of course, is Brexit. As I said to the Minister, there is no part of this United Kingdom of ours that will be more changed than Northern Ireland. Irrespective of whether we have a deal on Brexit or a crash-out Brexit, either will transform Northern Ireland in a way that will be massively different from the effect on any other part of this United Kingdom. We need to dwell on that. I said to the Minister that the Secretary of State had said he would need to bring forward regulation and legislation to equip himself as Secretary of State, and the Government, with the necessary provisions. Even if we sit not just this Saturday but every other weekend day between now and 31 October, we are now some 14 days from that Brexit date. That is worrying and frightening.

We need to have some certainty about issues such as policing. We know that the previous Chief Constable warned that a hard border across the island of Ireland would create targets for would-be terrorists, and we know that the current Chief Constable has asked for more resource in the event of a no-deal Brexit. In any event, we know that, with the possibility of an increase in civil disturbances, almost irrespective of the type of Brexit, there needs to be some concentration on keeping the peace and on the questions relating to stability. We are simply not seeing that. I hope we get clear answers from the Minister on the timetable for when the Secretary of State will come to the House.

The Secretary of State and the Minister know Northern Ireland, so I do not doubt that they will recognise that there can be no hard border across the island of Ireland. The Prime Minister’s red lines are such that they must take that into account. In that context, the need for an Assembly and an Executive to be up and running is paramount. That really has to be a driving force. I accept that the Secretary of State is in Belfast today bringing the parties together—I do not simply accept that; I want him to be there—but I have to say to the politicians that the gap between them is so small. I need to say this through the House. I cannot recognise the principle that keeps them apart, out of the Assembly and out of the Executive when we look at issues such as health, education and the very important issue of Brexit. I hope the Minister can reflect on the questions that we need to address that will help to bring the Executive back into operation between now and 31 October, because we need the Executive there, irrespective of what takes place there—save for the Prime Minister having to write the letter, which so far he has been reluctant to say he will do, to ask for an extension. If he writes that letter, there is of course some leeway in the formation of the Executive, but frankly not an awful lot.

I wish now to turn to the question of abortion, which other Members will want to raise as well. I have two specific questions for the Minister. He talked a little around the issues, and I am not sure that we have had absolute certainty on them. If the Assembly does not meet before 21 October, the provisions of the legislation will come into operation. There has already been an exchange on what that means. My understanding is that, once the clock begins to tick on 22 October, the Assembly will not be able to annul the legislation. Will the Minister guarantee that, from 22 October, there will be a proper campaign to make people aware of how they can access safe and legal abortion for women in Northern Ireland? Such a campaign would guarantee that health professionals, and those who would give advice more generally, know that they have comfort in the law to give proper and adequate advice to women who seek that kind of advice. That is of fundamental importance during the interim period.

The second question may be even more important, and it has been raised, either directly or indirectly, by other hon. Members. Will the Minister guarantee that, if we move into this phase, come 1 April when the new regime moves in, there will be the provision of safe and legal abortion for women in Northern Ireland? That is the intention of the law as this House voted, and it is absolutely necessary that we have a commitment from the Government tonight not simply that the law will allow it, but that the Government will institute it, provide for those services and make sure that they are available. Women in Northern Ireland are entitled now to know that they have certainty about the direction of travel of this Government.

I do not intend to speak for long, because I know that other Members wish to speak, but may I simply say to the Minister that I hope he can answer some of these difficult questions tonight? Those he cannot answer, will he undertake to return to Members, both individually and collectively, so that we have proper answers on the record and we know where we are travelling both in terms of the formation of the Executive and, of course, on this very difficult, but very necessary, issue of providing safe and legal abortion?

Oral Answers to Questions

Tony Lloyd Excerpts

Wednesday 11th January 2012 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

I congratulate everyone at Bombardier on winning that contract. As I have said before from the Dispatch Box, I want the Government to be a good customer of British firms and work with their supply chain, and not to make the mistakes that the last Government made. They drew up the contract for the railway service that Bombardier did not win.

[Tony Lloyd (Manchester Central) (Lab)]

Q12. The Prime Minister will probably be aware that a chief executive of a stock exchange top 100 company is paid 35 times as much as a hospital consultant who keeps people healthy and saves lives. If the Prime Minister is going to act tough on high pay, and if he really does get it, will he give a date—a year from now, or within the lifetime of this Parliament—when we will see that obscene 35 times multiple come tumbling down?

[The Prime Minister]

I do think that we should make progress on the issue of pay ratios, and we can start with the Government setting out their own pay ratios as an act of leadership. I think this Government have shown some leadership, not least by cutting and freezing Ministers’ pay and having total transparency on pay across Government. On the specific case that the hon. Gentleman raises, this year we have seen a 49% increase in pay yet only a 4% increase in the FTSE. I am not against people running great companies being paid lots of money if they are growing and expanding them and succeeding, but we should not have rewards for failure. Frankly, the last Government had 13 years to deal with this, and did sweet nothing.

Oral Answers to Questions

Tony Lloyd Excerpts

Wednesday 4th May 2011 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

First, I would like to congratulate my hon. Friend on his bicycling feat, as well as all those who took part from Huddersfield Town. I also pay tribute to our air ambulance crews across the country, who do an amazing and brilliant job. I have looked specifically at this issue. As he probably knows, the EU VAT directive does make an exemption for lifeboats, but there is no equivalent provision for supplies used by other charities and we are not able to change that. However, we are able to do more for charities, as we did in the Budget, including with the inheritance tax exemption, which I think is going to make a huge difference for charities up and down our country. I hope that he will do everything he can to encourage them to make use of that.

[Tony Lloyd (Manchester Central) (Lab)]

Q13. Child poverty is a cancer that means that children in our society go to bed hungry in homes that their parents cannot afford to heat. The Prime Minister will be aware of the recent Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development report that says that the great progress that was made has now stalled and that the numbers are once again due to go up. If the Prime Minister agrees with me, as I think he will, that this is a moral imperative for any Government, will he tell the House what he will do now to change policy and make sure that our innocent children will not be the victims of Government cuts?

[The Prime Minister]

I do believe it is a moral imperative and I have looked at the OECD report carefully, which does show that things stalled under the previous Government in recent years. What I would say is that despite having had to take difficult decisions in the Budget we did make sure that there has been no increase in child poverty as a result of the Budget. I think it is time, frankly, for a more mature, cross-party debate on how we can make sure that we get people out of poverty rather than just looking at the transfer of money between rich and poor. That is why we are looking at things such as the pupil premium, free nursery education for deprived two-year-olds and making sure that Sure Start is working properly, because it is all those things that will help children out of poverty in a more sustainable way.

Oral Answers to Questions

Tony Lloyd Excerpts

Wednesday 1st December 2010 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

My hon. Friend makes the right point in the right way. I understand that there will be difficulties with High Speed 2 in terms of the impact on some hon. Members’ constituencies and on some neighbourhoods. However, it is true to say that Governments of all parties for 50 years have tried to deal better with the north-south divide and to bring our country closer together. I profoundly believe that high-speed rail and good transport links are a really good way of making that happen. This measure could succeed where others, frankly, have failed.

[Tony Lloyd (Manchester Central) (Lab)]

Q11. The community of Collyhurst in Manchester has waited patiently and stoically with its insecure doors and draughty windows, while it has seen huge regeneration across large parts of Manchester. The Prime Minister will understand the sense of anger and despair in that community last week when the Minister for Housing and Local Government announced that its regeneration will not go ahead. Will the Prime Minister or the Minister for Housing and Local Government meet my hon. Friend the Member for Blackley and Broughton (Graham Stringer) in Collyhurst with tenants’ representatives to see how the matter can be taken forward?

[The Prime Minister]

I will make sure that the Minister for Housing and Local Government does as the hon. Gentleman says. The regional growth fund will be available for investment in those sorts of areas, and the replacement of regional development agencies—the local enterprise partnerships—will, partly because they will be more locally based, have a finer-tuned ear to local problems such as the one that the hon. Gentleman raises.