Oral Answers to Questions

Tony Lloyd Excerpts

Monday 12th December 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mrs May]

I thank my hon. Friend for his comments. I add to his congratulations the name of my right hon. Friend the Policing Minister, who played a significant role in ensuring that the legislation was steered through Parliament for it to be in place in September. I am keen to ensure that we have a diversity of candidates. We are now looking into a number of ways in which we can promote an understanding of the role of the police and crime commissioners. My right hon. Friend marked the one year to go to PCCs on 21 November with a speech on a new era in policing. We will be publishing a consultation, setting out proposals that PCCs act as commissioners for victim support services.

[Tony Lloyd (Manchester Central) (Lab)]

Given that the Home Secretary has made it clear that she wants police commissioners to have authority with respect not just to policing but to the criminal justice system, will she heed the important advice of the Association of Chief Police Officers that antisocial behaviour orders should still be part of the things at the disposal of police commissioners, the police and the criminal justice system?

[Mrs May]

I note the rather clever way in which the hon. Gentleman weaved the antisocial behaviour order into that question. As he knows, we consulted on replacing the current regime of ASBOs with a new regime that is clearer, less bureaucratic and easier to use. We will be introducing legislation in due course.

Border Control Scheme

Tony Lloyd Excerpts

Tuesday 15th November 2011 Commons Chamber

[Damian Green]

What used to happen under the previous Government was that flights were designated as high, medium or low risk, but there were no criteria by which anyone could judge whether flights were high, medium or low risk. All the very good people at the border therefore took a view on an individual basis. The result was complete inconsistency between different parts of the country. I cannot think that anyone addressing this matter in a fair-minded way would say that having a decent set of national criteria about what is a high or a medium-risk flight is less sensible than the chaos that existed before.

[Tony Lloyd (Manchester Central) (Lab)]

The shadow Home Secretary asked the Minister a direct question. What he has announced this morning is inconsistent with what the Home Secretary told the House last week. Did the Home Secretary know?

Oral Answers to Questions

Tony Lloyd Excerpts

Monday 7th November 2011 Commons Chamber

[Nick Herbert]

As my hon. Friend knows, the MOD police are not the responsibility of the Home Office; they are the responsibility of the MOD. However, I am happy to discuss the matter with them.

[Tony Lloyd (Manchester Central) (Lab)]

The Prime Minister promised that all legitimate claims made under the Riot (Damages) Act 1886 following the recent riots would be paid. I understand that a commitment has been made to ensure that the Metropolitan police will see its money, whereas Greater Manchester police authority is still struggling to get an answer from the Home Office. Can the Home Secretary or one of her Ministers give an answer today?

[Mrs May]

I am happy to answer the hon. Gentleman on that point. We will indeed cover claims made under the Riot (Damages) Act 1886, but as I am sure he will appreciate, it is necessary to check and verify those claims. We have been generous with the definition that we have used, but there is still a necessary process to go through—for example, to identify the exact value of the property lost.

Gangs and Youth Violence

Tony Lloyd Excerpts

Tuesday 1st November 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mrs May]

This is why we are absolutely clear that this is merely the start of a process and that what we are doing is putting in place sustainable, long-term work. It is necessary not just to bring certain individuals out of gang membership, but, sadly, to ensure that we prevent other young people from becoming part of new gangs that would replace those existing gangs. That is why preventing people from getting into gang membership in the first place is a key element of what we want to do.

[Tony Lloyd (Manchester Central) (Lab)]

The Home Secretary will know that the success in Greater Manchester in reducing gun crime has been through this type of multi-agency working, so what she describes is the application of common sense. However, resources do matter because many of the agencies involved are under financial pressure. Will she introduce an independent element of monitoring to ensure that we can see that the issue of money will not stop the effectiveness of these programmes?

[Mrs May]

I commend the work of Greater Manchester police, which has done excellent work in its Excalibur project. As the hon. Gentleman says, cross-agency working has made a very real difference to what it has been doing. I come back to the point that has been raised by many Opposition Members about funding and money. The issue is about how we spend the money that is available and about making sure that it is targeted on the right people and on interventions that are going to be effective. Over the years, Governments have spent so much money on dysfunctional families and on individuals who are gang members, but often to no effect. We must change that.

Public Disorder

Tony Lloyd Excerpts

Thursday 11th August 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mrs May]

The hon. Gentleman raises a valid point. That is one of the issues that we need to look at in more detail. However, the answer that I would give him is that when the police were looking at their numbers and bringing in some mutual aid, which they did on Monday night, they were of the view that they would have the capacity to deal with what they believed was going to happen.

The police were dealing with a different situation from that which they had seen before. One comment that a number of chief constables and officers have made to me is that they were surprised by the speed with which gangs were able to mobilise through the use of social media, and I shall come on to the issue of social media. Very real questions have to be answered about how we take forward those policing matters, and that is why we need to make sure that we learn the lessons from that situation.

The hon. Member for Streatham (Mr Umunna) is right that the number of officers then put on the streets on Tuesday night was effective. That robust policing, coupled with a robust arrest policy, was effective; it has been continued, and other forces have followed it through.

[Tony Lloyd (Manchester Central) (Lab)]

It is very easy for us as politicians to be armchair police officers, and it would have been wrong to comment on the night, but we need a cold analysis in order to know whether, for example, the lessons of the surge in London were taken on board in other parts of the country. That is not a matter that should divide the House; that is a matter of concern to my constituents, obviously, to those of other Greater Manchester Members and to those in other cities and conurbations throughout the country.

[Mrs May]

The hon. Gentleman makes a very valid point, and yesterday I had a conference call with chief officers from throughout the country to tell them that we wanted them to adopt exactly that approach. I shall refer to that in a few minutes.

--- Later in debate ---

[Yvette Cooper]

Senior police officers whom I have spoken to are concerned about the possibility that their activities will be constrained or inhibited by inappropriate intervention by American-style police and crime commissioners in operational decisions. It is important to note that the operational independence guidance has not yet been agreed between the police and the Government.

[Tony Lloyd (Manchester Central) (Lab)]

The Prime Minister rightly made great play of the ability of the Metropolitan police and, for example, the Greater Manchester police to draw on officers from other forces, but it is not clear to me whether it would still be possible to move police around the country following the introduction of political commissioners. The pressures against it would be enormous.

[Yvette Cooper]

The Met’s ability to put 16,000 police officers on the streets of London depended partly on mutual aid. It depended on the ability to draw on officers from other parts of the country, which is a hugely important principle. It is part of our policing model, and it has been effective. However, as my hon. Friend says, we should consider whether a chief constable and a police and crime commissioner campaigning to be re-elected by the local community will put local policing before their obligations to neighbouring areas that may face greater pressures. That is another major concern that has been raised with me.

This issue raises serious questions about resources that need to be addressed. Like the Prime Minister and the Home Secretary, I have asked police representatives whether they need more powers to do their job in the present circumstances. One senior officer put it very bluntly: he said that the problem in the early stages had been not a lack of powers, but a lack of cops. As the Home Secretary has confirmed, there were not enough police officers on the streets when the violence started. No one anticipated the scale of the violence that our cities would face. In some instances, the police did not step in to make arrests because they did not have enough officers out there to do so while also containing the public order problems that confronted them.

Last night, again, the Met put 16,000 officers on the streets. That is more than five times the normal likely strength in the capital, and it worked, but it came at a cost. Thousands of officers from other areas must be paid for, as must the cancelling of leave. The last couple of nights have probably cost the Met alone millions of pounds, and we need some clarity about the Government’s position. The Prime Minister said that, under Victorian legislation, the costs of riot compensation would be borne not by police budgets but by the Treasury reserve, and I welcome that announcement. However, the Prime Minister also appeared to say, in answer to a question asked by Members, that the Treasury would stand behind all the extra operational policing costs as well. I hope that that is correct, because the Home Secretary seemed to say something very different. She appeared to suggest that the pressure would sit on the reserves of the police authorities and forces involved.

I shall be happy to give way if the Home Secretary wishes to clarify the disparity between her comments and those of the Prime Minister. I hope she will agree that the costs of policing unprecedented riots and criminality must not necessitate cuts in the very neighbourhood and community police whom we need in order to prevent further criminal action.

--- Later in debate ---

[Tony Lloyd (Manchester Central) (Lab)]

The hon. Member for Enfield North (Nick de Bois) rightly concluded by saying that Enfield is open for business. Manchester is also open for business. All the places hit by these riots must make the same claim. We must insist that life goes on and we sweep up the pieces. We must begin the difficult process of saying that we will not be defeated by the rioters.

The rioters in my city—probably some 400 people—are not representative of young people across Manchester, which has thousands and thousands of young people. That very limited number of criminals trashed the city of Manchester in a few short hours. The real comparison is with the bravery of the police, because individually and collectively the police took enormous risks on behalf of the public and we should pay tribute to them. The much-derided local government workers and public servants worked through the night to ensure that Manchester was fit for purpose the following morning. Volunteers came in from districts in and around Manchester to sweep the streets and help out. They should be the contrast to the very limited number of rioters. It is right that we seize the question of why these disastrous riots happened, because the reputation of our country and of my city has been seriously damaged, but we must point out that the rioters do not represent modern Britain. Moral panic is not the answer.

I hope that we will get answers from the Government on the question of compensation. It is not trivial. Police forces that face increased costs and citizens in the affected areas want to know whether adequate compensation will be provided to cover their costs, because there was ambiguity in what was said by the Home Secretary and the Prime Minister. I hope that the Minister can clear up that important issue later.

We need a wider inquiry into the whole question of how riots should be policed. This riot was different. There are no strong parallels with the 1981 riots that I remember: the causes and the structures are very different. Indeed, no real reason lies behind the current riots, apart from criminality. Nevertheless, we need to consider whether the policing of these events has lessons for the future.

I am not proposing a vindictive attempt to put the blame on the police. As I have said, they have been incredibly brave, and it ill behoves politicians to be armchair police officers. However, we must ensure that the tactics of policing are right and that we are aware of where we are taking our police, and that must include a review of numbers. The fact is that we are asking people in blue uniforms to stand up to thugs, and we must make certain that there are no gaps in those blue uniforms. I must say, not unkindly, to the Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice, the right hon. Member for Arundel and South Downs (Nick Herbert), that when I see him with a riot shield I shall be more convinced that we have got the answers right. We, as politicians, must be prepared to do what we ask of our serving police officers.

Let me make a final point in the few moments that remain to me. I believe that it ill behoves Members in all parts of the House to look for easy scapegoats. It was not the abolition of education maintenance allowance or the increase in tuition fees that caused these riots. However, they do suggest that that there is no future for many of our young people. We must begin to define a future for them, so that they believe that they are part of society’s solutions rather than part of society’s problems.

Oral Answers to Questions

Tony Lloyd Excerpts

Monday 27th June 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mrs May]

I note that my hon. Friend was quite careful in the phrasing of his question, because of course, this is an MOD responsibility. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence and I have regular discussions on matters that affect both our Departments, and I am sure that we can put that on to the agenda.

[Tony Lloyd (Manchester Central) (Lab)]

The Greater Manchester police announced this day, I believe, that more than 200 serving police officers and 600 back-room staff will be shed. Will any Home Office Minister come to the Dispatch Box and promise my constituents that, if the great gains in crime detection and prevention are not continued, they will reverse the cuts and allow numbers to go back to where they were?

Tribunals (Maximum Compensation Awards) Bill

Tony Lloyd Excerpts

Friday 17th June 2011 Commons Chamber

[Tony Lloyd (Manchester Central) (Lab)]

I will be brief, because my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Diana Johnson) on the Front Bench also wants to say a few words.

Many of us share the sense of astonishment of the hon. Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope) at the extraordinary £2 million-plus claims that have occasionally gone through, but it is important that we make it clear, as my hon. Friend already has, that the median payout by tribunals for sex discrimination and for discrimination on the grounds of gender, race or whatever is considerably lower. The median payout for all those is less than £7,000, which is a world apart from the £2 million that the hon. Gentleman has cited, and we need to put that firmly on the public record. Those payouts of under £7,000 are also all way below the maximum cap for unfair dismissal, which is £68,000, so it really is desperately important that what the hon. Gentleman says about high-end payments should not determine the tribunal payouts for sex discrimination or for discrimination on the grounds of gender, race or whatever. Such discrimination still infects our workplaces, and people suffer enormously.

The median payout of £7,000 recognises the loss of earnings that takes place, but people do not simply lose their jobs, because those who go through such intolerable bullying in the workplace suffer enormously at psychological and personal levels, too. Earlier, we debated good and bad employers, and the fact that such tribunal cases are fought successfully is evidence that some employers allow the most unacceptable practices in the workplace. However, those cases do not involve the mega-payouts that the hon. Gentleman has mentioned.

If the idea is to equate, for example, sex discrimination with unfair dismissal, I also say gently to the hon. Gentleman that I do not understand why he has not equalised the cap on each. I share with him my profound belief, however, that he was right to challenge the Minister on the impact of European law, because it would not be possible to bring in his legislation without at least a massive challenge going right through our domestic legal system to—I think I am right in saying—the Court in Luxembourg and, perhaps, to the Court in Strasbourg. He will therefore have some difficulty persuading any Government to take on the Bill as it stands.

Student Visas

Tony Lloyd Excerpts

Thursday 16th June 2011 Westminster Hall

[Paul Blomfield]

I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention and join him in urging the Minister to look again at that issue. We should trust the universities to determine adequate levels of English competence. After all, they have, through their own initiative and ability, developed our education into this worldwide export earner.

[Tony Lloyd (Manchester Central) (Lab)]

My hon. Friend is making an excellent speech. He talks about the offers that universities have made that may now have to be withdrawn. The vice-chancellor of the Manchester Metropolitan university, whose views will be very similar to those of people up and down the land, said to me that he is now in the difficult position of having

“to notify students who have accepted offers that they must now meet new conditions. We are also concerned about the legal ramifications of altering the terms of offers already accepted.”

In other words, the universities could be sued and lose out financially above and beyond the visa withdrawal.

[Paul Blomfield]

That is absolutely right. This afternoon, we need to consider the transitional arrangements for the introduction of these new requirements and the position in which they put our universities.

--- Later in debate ---

[Tony Lloyd (Manchester Central) (Lab)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield Central (Paul Blomfield) not simply on obtaining the debate, but on the way in which he introduced it. Despite some of the speeches that have been made, this is not an attempt to make a frontal assault on the whole of the Government’s immigration policy. All of us who have taken part in the debate and, I think, every Member of the House of Commons would accept that the bogus college has no place in British society. We should close such colleges down, prosecute those involved in running them and kick out those who have obtained bogus visas. That should be a statement of obvious fact.

What we are talking about here, though, is a recognition that, in the introduction of a relatively new system, haste may have been involved and there may be a need to fine-tune and adjust what already exists. I think that that is what my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield Central concentrated on and I hope that we can get the Minister to address those issues. Rather unkindly, I will be complimentary to the Minister, as the hon. Member for Woking (Jonathan Lord) was. The Minister is a thoughtful man, and I hope that he will think about the issues that have been raised, because they are important.

Our higher and further education system is a precious national asset economically, but also culturally and in the wider realm of public diplomacy, so it does matter. It matters to all our constituencies. A city such as mine, with a huge educational infrastructure, both in higher education and in further education, depends on it for employment and for the very nature of modern Manchester. Within that context, I will concentrate on three particular aspects of the rules as they are now beginning to apply. These points have been brought to me by individual establishments. I will begin by raising, as other hon. Members have, the issue of a level playing field with respect to private institutions.

The Nazarene theological college, which obviously trains students in areas of theology, has made the point to me that the majority of its students are not visa holders—they do not need to be. It has a limited number of very high level students, mainly PhD students. However, PhD students attending private colleges such as the Nazarene college are treated differently from those who attend our public universities, in that only postgraduate students at universities and Government-sponsored students are able to bring in their dependants—their spouses and children. Often, those studying for doctorates at theological colleges are mature students. Frankly, saying that they must spend three or four years away from their families means that colleges will not be able to attract that kind of high-level student. I hope that the Minister will reconsider, because that college believed that there might be movement in that area. Perhaps that is something that warrants reconsideration.

A couple of institutions, both operating at a high level, have raised with me an issue that I have previously raised with the Minister—the post-study work route. One is the Northern Ballet school, which says that its graduates often do not get the regular paid work that they need; they need work experience if they are to pursue their careers. They will often take on freelance or part-time work, but at the moment that would take them outside the provisions of the post-study work route. Similarly, SSR college, which trains people to degree level, works in conjunction with universities on sound recording, a vital part of modern education. It, too, says that its students, after graduation, often have to look for part-time work, but again that would prevent them from taking the post-study work route.

The next point that I wish to raise in the brief time available has already been put to the Minister—the capacity to revise the impact of the new regime this year. INTO Manchester, which provides a route into higher education, and Manchester Metropolitan university have both raised similar issues with me about existing offers of places. The Minister said that unconditional offers would be honoured but there is the question of conditional offers.

More narrowly, questions have been asked about those people coming on to foundation courses where the language qualification is lower. Students often come to the university over the summer months to begin a part of their language course before going on to the foundation course. The summer is nearly with us, and the problem for these institutions is that they are having to correspond with students at a very late stage to say that they must now get the B1 English qualification, which they are finding too difficult.

My appeal to the Minister is whether, even at this late stage, we can modify the impact of the rules, make them a little more flexible, and recognise that in the longer run we do not want to damage this vital part of our economy and culture; I am sure that the Minister, too, does not want that. We need to refine that process in a way that suits everybody and makes no serious assault on the Government’s immigration policies.

--- Later in debate ---

[Damian Green]

Absolutely. Indeed, the numbers were still rising right up until last year. We now have the figures up to the summer of last year and the numbers were still rising at that point. As I was saying, we are building on the points-based system, but we are precisely introducing limits and precisely driving out abuse in the student system. That is why we will move on to other systems, so that we can get the numbers down. The points-based system is not enough on its own, but it is a platform on which we can build.

The Home Secretary announced new reforms that mean that all sponsors must now be vetted by one of the approved inspectorates and all of them must attain the status of highly trusted sponsors. In line with that commitment, we announced earlier this week that the Quality Assurance Agency for Higher Education and the Independent Schools Inspectorate would extend their activities to cover privately funded providers. Sponsors must meet our immigration requirements and high standards of educational provision. Institutions that do not meet those requirements are now subject to a limit on the number of students that they can bring in. To stay on the sponsor register in the longer term, they must achieve highly trusted sponsor status no later than April 2012 and gain accreditation by the relevant agency by the end of 2012. The imposition of a limit responds to the urgent need to tackle abuse, allows sponsors time to adjust to the new system and prevents surges in applications from high-risk sectors. We are well on track to delivering a sponsorship system that the public can trust.

We are also raising the bar on entry requirements. All students coming to study degree-level courses must now be able to speak English at an upper intermediate level and others will have to speak English at an intermediate level. If students cannot answer basic questions in English about their course, UKBA officers will refuse them entry at the border. That was another point legitimately made by the Chairman of the Home Affairs Committee. We are now bringing back the power for immigration officers at the border to recognise that someone is obviously, indeed blatantly, incapable of fulfilling the requirements of their visa.

In recognition of our trust in universities, we are flexible about the methods that they use to assess a student’s level of English. That brings me on to a specific point that was made by the hon. Member for Sheffield Central. Let me start by discussing what is, if you like, the biggest transitional issue. That is the English language requirement, which he raised in his introductory speech.

The appropriate level of English for those coming to study at level 6 and above is an upper intermediate level across each of the four disciplines: reading; writing; speaking; and listening. That is level B2 on the common European framework of language. A lower level—B1—is the appropriate level for lower courses, including the pathways courses that many Members have mentioned. Those are courses taken by people coming in who do not have the appropriate level of English but who want to take an English language course in the UK on their way to taking a full university course here. So we have set a lower level of English as a requirement for those students.

In order to get a visa, those outside universities will have to present a test certificate from an independent test provider proving that they have attained the required level. As another flexibility that we have introduced, universities will be able to vouch for a student’s ability if they are coming to study at degree level or above. Indeed, there might be the odd student who cannot meet the requirements for all four disciplines but is so exceptional that we will allow individual requests by university academic registrars.

A number of Members have talked about English language schools. People who want to come to the UK to study lower-level English can do so for up to 11 months through the student visitor route. We introduced that concession after discussions with the English language colleges last autumn, and the colleges have welcomed it.

On the confirmations of acceptance for studies and the visas, the requirements for an offer of a place at a university are separate from the requirements under the immigration rules. Universities could, and should, have assigned a confirmation of acceptance for studies to people who held unconditional offers before 21 April. Someone with a conditional offer has, of course, not yet satisfied the university’s own academic entry requirements. The immigration system and its requirements have always been separate from the academic entry requirements, and it is important not to confuse the two. For instance, any Government would refuse a student entry if their background indicated that a potential harm would be posed to the UK, even if a university had given an unconditional offer of a place.

It was mentioned that there are difficulties relating to the English language tests. The UKBA ran a procurement exercise and expanded the list of English test providers to ensure that there was significant capacity, and we are in regular contact with each of the approved test providers, which have demonstrated flexibility in expanding test centre capacity where there is demand. If there are blockages, we are trying hard to remove them.

There has been much inevitable discussion about the impact assessment, and various figures have been cited. I wish to put on the record that the net cost is said to be £2.4 billion. The £3.6 billion is the gross cost, but there will also be £1.1 billion of benefits. The truth about the impact assessment process is that it is in its infancy and is not yet satisfactory. I have spoken to the economists who do the assessments and they agree that the process needs to improve. I do not want to go into the economic theology of what works and what does not work because it is late on a Thursday afternoon, but I shall give one very practical example. The way in which the assessments are carried out requires us to assume that there is a zero displacement effect of students taking jobs on the local labour market. In other words, if a foreign student is doing a job and then leaves, 100% of that economic activity is assumed to be lost. In practical terms, however, it is likely that that person will be replaced by a British student or someone else. Clearly, therefore, the assessments are not satisfactory, and we have asked the Migration Advisory Committee, which is independent of Government, to look at the process over the summer.

The definition of immigration is beginning to vex us, and I am half-tempted to spend a long time discussing whether students should somehow be removed from the definition altogether. There is clearly an academic argument to be had, but I will just make the underlying point that although it would be fantastically convenient for the Minister for Immigration suddenly to discover that hundreds of thousands of people who were regarded as immigrants yesterday would not be regarded as immigrants tomorrow—I would hit my targets with no effort at all—that is not realistic, and I do not think that the public would accept it. In terms of confidence, the point is very well made that immigration statistics are imperfect, particularly regarding counting people in and out, and that is why we have re-let the e-Borders contract. Over the next few years we will develop a much greater ability to count people out as well as in, but it seems sensible to stick to the internationally agreed measurements we have always had, which are used by other countries, rather than apparently try to redefine our way out of what is a serious and difficult political issue.

The other big subject that many Members have mentioned is post-study work, and I am afraid that I will have to agree to differ with the hon. Member for Sheffield Central. The students’ primary motivation should be to study, not to work. The ability to work after finishing a course or, as my hon. Friend the Member for Woking (Jonathan Lord) said, while doing a course, should not be a significant part of the motivation of someone coming here on a student visa. If people want to come here to work, there are work routes, and I do not want them to deceive either us or themselves by saying, “I’m here as a student but what really matters to me—the motivating force—is that I can either work during the course or stay for a couple of years afterwards.” It is simply not the case that everyone who does that gets a graduate-level job. In one cohort that we looked at, of those who were hanging around for the allowed two years after finishing their degrees, about 20% were unemployed, and 50% of those who were employed were in unskilled jobs and not making use of their studies.

[Tony Lloyd]

Does the Minister not recognise that there are some people who would benefit as part of the total package of education plus skills training but who might not qualify under the current post-study work route structure?

[Damian Green]

No. The problem is that the post-study work route has been abused as much as it has been legitimately used. We are not closing down that route altogether; we are specifically saying, “If you can get a graduate-level job, you can stay.” That seems very reasonable—[Hon. Members: “It is about the salary”]. I thank Members for that. Let me talk about the £20,000 salary that the hon. Member for Sheffield Central suggested was somehow wrong. I have to say, in the gentle spirit of non-partisanship in which I am making this speech, that the £20,000 minimum salary threshold for tier 2 was set by the previous Government, following a recommendation by the Migration Advisory Committee in August 2009. At that time, the tier 2 skill threshold was jobs at national vocational qualification level 3, and this Government have now raised that threshold to jobs at NVQ level 4, at which level the case for a salary threshold of at least £20,000 becomes even more compelling.

Student Visas

Tony Lloyd Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd March 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mrs May]

We have looked at the balance of interests among universities, the UK economy, businesses and, of course, those currently resident in the UK who are graduating from UK universities and looking for jobs. That is why we have not said that graduates can stay on under the terms of the current post-study work route, which allows them to stay on and go into unskilled jobs or stay on and not be in employment. We think it is right that the brightest and best should have an opportunity to stay here for a limited period of time, but they must be in a skilled graduate-level job. We have been absolutely clear, however, that if the numbers unexpectedly or significantly increase, we will ask the Migration Advisory Committee to look at how we can ensure that abuses do not continue—if that is happening—and that could include limiting the numbers.

[Tony Lloyd (Manchester Central) (Lab)]

The Home Secretary will get support—not least from me—for her previous answer, because it is important to get that balance right. Will she clarify something for me? One of the things involved in the post-study work route that she has described is a system of UK Border Agency licensing. If that is to exist, will those who operate it be properly trained and will they operate with proper flexibility? That has not always been the case in the past. Does she recognise the point made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham, Deptford (Joan Ruddock) that for some graduate professions, such as the performing arts and dance, the £20,000 limit could be impossible to attain in post-study work?

[Mrs May]

I am happy to say to the hon. Gentleman that we are not creating a new process at the UKBA; it already has such a process for tier 2 of the points-based system. The UKBA is used to operating the system and to discussing with business and others the appropriate codes of conduct and measures within those codes, in order to ensure that people stay on in the right level of job. The UKBA is well used to employing a degree of flexibility in dealing with occupations that do not fit into a more stereotypical approach in terms of levels of salary.

Oral Answers to Questions

Tony Lloyd Excerpts

Monday 7th March 2011 Commons Chamber

[Nick Herbert]

I should point out to the hon. Gentleman that there are also 4,000 police staff working in Greater Manchester police. There was a huge increase in the number of police staff employed by police forces under the previous Government. The chief constable of Greater Manchester police said in evidence to the Home Affairs Committee that

“there was already a recognition, certainly in Greater Manchester Police, that some of our headquarters operations had got too big.”

Forces can and must make savings in back and middle offices while protecting the front line.

[Tony Lloyd (Manchester Central) (Lab)]

The Minister has not really responded to the real issue on this. Will he tell the House unequivocally—and repeat his view—that when we see the number of police officers reduced in Greater Manchester, as we will, it will have no impact on crime?

[Nick Herbert]

We are absolutely determined to maintain efficient and effective forces, and every chief constable I meet, including the chief constable of Greater Manchester, makes the same point. The chief constable said last week, after being misquoted on the matter:

“We need to have an intelligent debate about the cuts and see the opportunities, not just the threats.”