Bishops and Priests (Consecration and Ordination of Women) Measure

Debate between Tony Baldry and Lord Beith

Monday 20th October 2014 Commons Chamber

[Sir Tony Baldry]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for those comments, and I hope that view is shared by everyone and all Members of the House.

[Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD)]

Will my right hon. Friend note that the enthusiasm for tonight’s decision is shared in the non-conformist Churches, many of which, like the Methodist Church and the United Reformed Church, are accustomed to having women as their leaders, as moderator or president?

[Sir Tony Baldry]

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for making the point—it was made in the other place and I will comment on it later—that this is a measure that has been welcomed by many other faith groups as well. I am also grateful for his kind welcome for the Measure.

At General Synod, the Measure enjoyed overwhelming majorities at final approval in the three Houses of Synod, with 95% in the House of Bishops, 87% in the House of Clergy and 77% in the House of Laity—majorities that I suspect any party or combination of parties in this House would give their eye-teeth for. At the heart of the work and discussions on the new Measure was the ambition to do everything possible to maintain unity in the Church of England. This Measure, along with its accompanying instruments and documents, seeks to give expression to that hope of unity in various ways. It is acknowledged in the five guiding principles in the House of Bishops’ declaration that we live in a wider Christian world, where this development—having women bishops—is not accepted by everyone, and we have committed ourselves to maintain a place, without limited time, for those who are of the traditional viewpoint. These commitments are important because they are at the core of what the Church of England is about and how it sees itself within our national life. In the House of Lords debate last week, the Archbishop of Canterbury observed:

“One of the most moving parts of this process has been listening to those who have been willing to go along with something that they feel passionately and deeply is not the right thing for the church to do…I say again that the Church of England is deeply committed to the flourishing of all those who are part of its life in the grace of God. It is not our intention that any particular group should wither on the vine.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 14 October 2014; Vol. 756, c. 187.]

Indeed, I think we would all hope that every part of the Church of England can now flourish and thrive.

In the same debate last week, the House of Lords was particularly moved by the speech of the noble Lord Cormack, who many will know was for many years a member of the Ecclesiastical Committee and who describes himself as a traditional Anglican. Lord Cormack said that he could

“say with all certainty that had I been present in York this year I would have approved of the Measure before us this evening. There has been a real attempt to understand the sincerely held peculiarities of those of us who call ourselves traditional Anglicans.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 14 October 2014; Vol. 756, c. 175.]

As the Archbishop of Canterbury observed a little while ago on “Newsnight”,

“the biggest change in the last 20 months has been the way we treat each other and the way we are learning to treat people we disagree with.”

This Measures thus comes before us this evening with the overwhelming endorsement of every diocese in England and the overwhelming endorsement of every part of General Synod following a process of listening and reconciliation.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Tony Baldry and Lord Beith

Tuesday 18th January 2011 Commons Chamber

[Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD)]

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that many churches can remain in use while adapting to accommodate other uses? Will he commend the work of English Heritage and its field officers in trying to achieve that, and will he so organise the affairs of the Church Commissioners that they encourage and facilitate this kind of continuing useful worship?

[Tony Baldry]

Absolutely. Increasingly, churches are being put to other uses, ranging from post offices to shops, and from community centres to internet cafés. There are 19,000 churches across the country and in many communities the church is the most prominent public building, so we want to make sure that churches are used as much as possible, rather than just for a couple of hours each week on a Sunday.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Tony Baldry and Lord Beith

Tuesday 30th November 2010 Commons Chamber

[Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD)]

8. What consultation the Church Commissioners have undertaken with organisations in the north-east on the future of the paintings of Jacob and the Patriarchs in Auckland castle.

[The Second Church Estates Commissioner (Tony Baldry)]

I was grateful for the meeting yesterday that was chaired by the Bishop of Jarrow, which the hon. Lady helped to organise. As a consequence of those discussions, it was agreed that the lord lieutenant of Durham will chair a working party to consider over the next three months whether it is possible for the Zurbaráns to remain at Auckland castle.

[Tony Baldry]

The hon. Lady highlights the challenge for the Church Commissioners. I was grateful to her for taking me to visit Woodhouse Close church community centre and the Woodhouse Close church, which is in one of the poorest wards in the country. That demonstrates the Church Commissioners’ need to raise money to allocate to clergy in such parishes. However, we will consider carefully and seriously any suggestions that the local community makes that enable us to retain the Zurbaráns at Auckland castle. She must appreciate, however, that they are a drain on, and not an asset to, Church Commissioner funds.

[Sir Alan Beith]

I welcome my hon. Friend’s decision to initiate some new discussions with bodies that are interested in a sustainable future for Auckland castle and the paintings, but will he recognise that the paintings are a precious cultural asset of the north-east region? In their time and to this day, they make a strong statement about the emancipation of the Jewish community in the UK?

[Tony Baldry]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The paintings were a strong and important statement by Bishop Trevor of the Anglican Church’s support for the emancipation of the Jewish community.

The Church Commissioners, by and large, do not possess pictures—we tend to own land and property—but I am in absolutely no doubt of the importance and identity of those pictures, which is why the working party that I mentioned, which will be chaired by the lord lieutenant of Durham, will consider ways in which the Zurbaráns can stay at Auckland castle, but I say that without prejudice to the wider statutory and charitable responsibilities and obligations of the Church Commissioners.