Oral Answers to Questions

Tony Baldry Excerpts

Thursday 5th July 2012 Commons Chamber

[John Robertson (Glasgow North West) (Lab)]

1. What information the Church Commissioners hold on the number of churches sold and subsequently turned into bars or casinos since May 2010.

[The Second Church Estates Commissioner (Sir Tony Baldry)]

None that I am aware of.

[John Robertson]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that extensive answer. I am disappointed that although I have asked this question on many occasions, I am yet to receive a satisfactory answer—which we have again not received. Is it not despicable that a place of worship should be turned into a bar or a casino? Is it not time that the churches looked at that, to ensure that it does not happen and that they are not sold to those kinds of people?

[Sir Tony Baldry]

We are at cross purposes. The answer that I gave to the hon. Gentleman was very clear: I am not aware of any redundant or former churches having been turned into a bar or a casino. If he has details of any such instances, will he please let me have them so that I can investigate?

[Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)]

2. What the average number of parishes is per Church of England priest in rural areas; and if he will make a statement.

[Sir Tony Baldry]

The Church does not calculate an average figure for the number of parishes per priest in rural areas, because different dioceses take varying approaches to pastoral organisation.

[Miss McIntosh]

I thank my hon. Friend for that answer. I wonder whether we could urge the Church Commissioners to undertake such an exercise. I should like to praise the work of rural priests. In North Yorkshire, they are being asked to spread themselves extremely thinly, and any support that they could be given would be most welcome.

[Sir Tony Baldry]

My hon. Friend is quite correct to draw our attention to the fantastic work being done by priests in rural areas. We will collect statistics on rural priests, and I will ensure that they are shared with her.

[Hugh Bayley (York Central) (Lab)]

3. What discussions he has had with the Church Commissioners on the role of clergy in a reformed House of Lords.

[Sir Tony Baldry]

I have regular discussions on the question of Lords reform with senior colleagues in the Church of England, including the archbishops and the Bishop of London, who are Lords Spiritual and Church Commissioners. Like me, they welcome the view of the Government and the parliamentary Joint Committee that there should be a continuing, albeit reduced, place for Lords Spiritual in a reformed House of Lords.

[Hugh Bayley]

Some years ago, Parliament changed the law to allow members of the Anglican clergy to stand for election to this House, which has enabled my hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) to become a Member of Parliament. Will the Government’s proposals for an elected second Chamber permit the Anglican clergy to stand for election, and has the Church considered that it might make sense for the Anglican representation in the second Chamber to be elected, so that women as well as men could offer themselves for election?

[Sir Tony Baldry]

The answer to the first part of the hon. Gentleman’s question is yes. I do not think that there will be any constraint on priests or former priests standing for election to the elected part of the second Chamber. On the second part of his question, I suspect that all of us here earnestly hope that, sooner or later, the Church of England will have women bishops.

[Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)]

I completely agree, and I praise the hon. Gentleman for all his work on trying to bring in women bishops, but has he read the Bill that we are to debate next week? It does not actually define what a bishop is. The Bill does not say whether it refers to diocesan bishops, suffragan bishops, Anglican bishops, Catholic bishops, bishops from Scotland or bishops from Wales. Is this a radical step that the Church is going to support?

[Mr Speaker]

I think that the hon. Gentleman has just applied to speak in the debate. He has already applied to me in writing, and I think that his question was an additional application, for which we are all very grateful.

[Sir Tony Baldry]

May I also make an oral application to speak in the Lords reform debate, in response to the many speeches that I know the hon. Gentleman is going to make about bishops?

[Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con)]

4. What steps the Church Commissioners are taking to mark metal items in churches for the purpose of preventing metal theft.

[Sir Tony Baldry]

The Church Commissioners have taken a keen interest in the development of metal marking undertaken by the Institute of Minerals, Mining and Metals—IOM3. Marking systems are under development that can be used to mark new and existing roofs with a clear mark of ownership. We have been working to achieve that with IOM3 and the insurance industry.

[Guy Opperman]

Churches, war memorials and monuments throughout the north-east have been affected by this despicable crime. Will my hon. Friend do all that he can to get behind the private Member’s Bill that is to be debated in the House shortly, and ensure that the churches themselves do all that they can to mark their property?

[Sir Tony Baldry]

My hon. Friend the Member for Croydon South (Richard Ottaway) has introduced an excellent Bill, and we hope that it will get a good hearing tomorrow and make progress. Of course the churches have a responsibility to do everything they can to protect their own metal from theft. They do this by using SmartWater, CCTV cameras and other examples of the latest technology. We are all seeking to crack this despicable crime, but at the end of the day we have to make the scrap metal business a cashless business involving only business-to-business transactions, to prevent people from ripping lead off roofs and taking it round to the scrap metal market the next day and getting cash for it.

[Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con)]

My hon. Friend mentioned SmartWater, which is a tried and trusted method not only of bringing criminals to justice but of deterring them from committing crimes in the first place. Will he update the House on how many churches have SmartWater technology on their premises, and will he ensure that as many as possible are covered by it in the future?

[Sir Tony Baldry]

I can assure my hon. Friend that a very large number of churches are using SmartWater.

The right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton, representing the Speaker's Committee on the Electoral Commission was asked—

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab)]

9. What representations the Church Commissioners have received on recent amendments to the Women Bishops Measure made by the House of Bishops.

[The Second Church Estates Commissioner (Sir Tony Baldry)]

I made my own position very clear in a speech to the General Synod shortly after my appointment. I had hoped that the Synod would give final approval to the legislation for women bishops next Monday, but as a result of an amendment made by the House of Bishops in May, it is possible that the Synod will ask the House of Bishops to think again, in which case we may be in for a short period of ping-pong between the Synod and the House of Bishops.

[Simon Hughes]

Those of us such as the hon. Gentleman who have argued for a long time for women to have equality in the Church and to be able to become bishops are getting a bit frustrated. I respectfully say that the objective he should communicate to his colleagues on the Synod is that during this year—either at the forthcoming Synod or the autumn Synod—a final decision should be taken. If there has to be a bit of compromise, so be it—but not on the principle. The differences of view need to be respected, but we need a clear decision on women bishops to be taken this year while this archbishop remains in office.

[Sir Tony Baldry]

I agree entirely with everything my right hon. Friend has said.

[Mr Bradshaw]

It is terribly sad that, yet again, the bishops have threatened this measure by trying to water it down. A couple of weeks ago, they accused this House of jeopardising the status of the established Church because we are likely to vote for equal marriage. Will the hon. Gentleman tell the bishops that establishment is a two-way street, and that by putting themselves so far away from mainstream opinion on women bishops—in this House, in the country and even in the Church of England—it is they who are threatening the established status of the Church?

[Sir Tony Baldry]

I take the point, but let me say, in fairness, that I think the Archbishop of Canterbury and the bishops were trying hard to find a piece of territory on which they felt that everyone could stand. Many of us in the House are familiar with that concept. As the archbishop said, it is rather like one of those Christmas cracker games that involve trying to get three ball bearings into a hole: you always get two in, but one falls out. I think that a genuine attempt was made, but it obviously backfired, and we shall have to review the position.

The House of Commons well understands the concept of ping-pong. I hope that if the General Synod sends this back to the House of Bishops, the bishops will reflect on what has been said by people including my right hon. Friend the Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes). I also hope very much that, before the year is out, the House will have an opportunity to pass legislation that will make it possible for the Church of England to have women bishops.

[Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)]

Does the hon. Gentleman accept that in years to come, it will be as difficult for people to understand the controversy about women bishops as it is for them to understand now why 100 years ago women had to fight in every conceivable way to become Members of Parliament and to have the right to vote?

[Sir Tony Baldry]

The hon. Gentleman has made a fair point, and one on which the General Synod ought to reflect at its meeting in York over the next few days.

[Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con)]

7. What consideration the Church Commissioners have given to the use of an inclusive admissions policy for Church of England schools.

[Sir Tony Baldry]

The ethos and purpose of the original foundation of Church of England schools was to serve the local community. The National Society was founded by the Church of England in 1811 to provide community schools for poor children, and currently provides resources for 4,700 Church of England schools and 172 Church in Wales schools. All those schools have a strong Christian foundation and a commitment to the local Christian community.

[Mr Speaker]

The hon. Member for South West Bedfordshire (Andrew Selous) is now fully informed.

[Andrew Selous]

I find that in my constituency most Church schools are hugely popular with parents, but concern is sometimes expressed about admission policies. How can we best expand popular Church schools in an inclusive way?

[Sir Tony Baldry]

I believe that the Church schools admissions policy involves a duty to balance the need to admit children from Christian families with the need to admit those from the wider community. The diocese of St Albans, which contains my hon. Friend’s constituency, places considerable emphasis on community involvement and ensuring that children from the wider community enter Church schools. The schools were set up in the first place to educate children of the parish.

The hon. Member for Gainsborough, representing the Public Accounts Commission, was asked—

--- Later in debate ---

[Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con)]

10. What recent assessment the Church Commissioners have made of the listed places of worship grants scheme.

[The Second Church Estates Commissioner (Sir Tony Baldry)]

The sum of £30 million per year, for the life of this Parliament, will be added to the existing listed places of worship grant scheme, making a total fund of £42 million per year. The fund will be made available annually to ensure that all eligible repairs and alterations to listed church buildings receive a full rebate of the equivalent of VAT.

[Robert Halfon]

On behalf of many church leaders from Harlow and the villages who have written to me about this issue—Valerie and Simon Dinwiddy from St Mary-at-Latton church, Joan Jones and many others—I thank the Government for listening. Can my hon. Friend give those people comfort by assuring them that his financial support will not last for just a few months, but is a longer-term commitment from the Government?

[Sir Tony Baldry]

I think that we must all thank the Chancellor of the Exchequer for making the extra money available. Indeed, he has undertaken to make it available each year for the remaining life of the current Parliament. I hope that we can secure cross-party agreement and understanding that the scheme will continue irrespective of what happens at the next general election.

[Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)]

Can the hon. Gentleman confirm that churches in Wales will benefit from the rebate scheme when VAT similar to that in England is imposed on them?

[Sir Tony Baldry]

I shall have to take advice on that point. I am not responsible for the Church in Wales, which was cruelly disestablished and dis-endowed by Lloyd George.