Oral Answers to Questions

Tony Baldry Excerpts

Thursday 1st March 2012 Commons Chamber

[David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con)]

1. What annual wage is paid to chauffeurs working for Church of England bishops.

[The Second Church Estates Commissioner (Tony Baldry)]

The commissioners are currently employing 19 drivers, at a total cost of £352,719, which helps to ensure the best use of bishops’ time.

[David T. C. Davies]

I understand that the average wage of a chauffeur for Church of England bishops is about £23,000 a year. The Welfare Reform Bill has just become an Act, but does the commissioner believe that the bishops who voted against it—who voted to ensure that people who are not working should earn more than £26,000—should now feel a moral imperative to pay their chauffeurs accordingly?

[Tony Baldry]

My hon. Friend makes his own point in his own way. Bishops were not arguing for the abolition of the cap; they were arguing for child benefit to be exempted because they believed that the cap was not flexible enough to be fair to those with large families or those in areas with high housing rental costs. May I say to my hon. Friend, who is an independent-minded Member of Parliament, that there are just 26 Lords Spiritual in a Chamber of nearly 800 Members and I suspect that all independent-minded Members of this House, wherever we sit, would think that from time to time it is no bad thing for the Lords Spiritual to rattle a few cages?

[Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con)]

2. What steps the Church Commissioners are taking to ensure that cathedrals are able to access insurance.

[Tony Baldry]

The Church Commissioners are aware of the increasing demands that cathedrals are making on their insurance policies, especially as a consequence of metal theft. The majority of cathedrals are insured by Ecclesiastical Insurance and so far no cathedral has ever been refused any insurance claim by Ecclesiastical, which is working extremely hard with all cathedrals to assist in reducing the problem of metal theft.

[Sarah Newton]

I am very grateful to my hon. Friend for that answer, because there has been alarming coverage in the press of cathedrals being unable to insure themselves. People in my constituency work very hard to raise the necessary funds to support Truro cathedral and its vital work in the community, so will my hon. Friend keep ensuring that cathedrals can afford insurance?

[Tony Baldry]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right to raise this issue. Cathedrals have not been immune from thefts within and without and only recently a silver cross was stolen from the Lady chapel in Manchester cathedral. Each time this happens, it puts up the costs of insurance in all cathedrals, including the much-loved Truro cathedral in my hon. Friend’s constituency. That is why we have to bear down on metal theft.

[Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con)]

3. What steps the Church Commissioners are taking to promote bell ringing.

[Tony Baldry]

A general fund provides grants to enable the repair and maintenance of historic bell towers. The Church of England is delighted that bell ringing in church buildings is taking centre stage this year during the diamond jubilee and Olympic celebrations.

[Andrew Stephenson]

Over the past few years, the bell ringers of the 12th century St Mary-le-Ghyll church in Barnoldswick have raised more than £60,000 to increase the number of bells at the church from three to six, a project that was completed and dedicated by the Bishop of Bradford in January 2010. They are now in the process of raising a further £17,000 to add a final two bells. Will my hon. Friend join me in congratulating them on their efforts?

[Tony Baldry]

That is a fantastic achievement by St Mary- le-Ghyll and I hope that all those six bells will ring out at 3 o’clock in the afternoon on 3 June, when churches throughout the country are being encouraged to ring out their bells to coincide with the river pageant on the River Thames. I am glad to report to the House that the lead barge—the herald barge—will contain a floating belfry, the first of its kind with a new ring of eight bells cast at the Whitechapel Bell Foundry. Each of the royal jubilee bells will have the royal arms cast on it and will be named after a senior member of the royal family. The bells will go down the Thames and ring a quarter peal on the river, with the church bells along the route providing a musical response. It is hoped that at 3 pm on 3 June bells throughout England will ring out to celebrate the Queen’s diamond jubilee.

[Mr Speaker]

No one could accuse the hon. Gentleman of providing the House with insufficient information and we are grateful to him.

[Jake Berry (Rossendale and Darwen) (Con)]

Living in the house directly opposite St Thomas, Musbury, church in Helmshore, I am a real fan of campanology. Will my hon. Friend join me in congratulating our congregation at St Thomas’s on the fundraising we have done to restore our bell tower so that bells can be rung again on Sunday morning?

[Tony Baldry]

Absolutely, and that demonstrates that communities throughout the country are very keen to keep their church bell towers in good order.

[Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland) (Lab)]

4. What discussions the Church Commissioners have had with (a) the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport and (b) the Secretary of State for the Home Department on metal theft from war memorials situated on Church of England property.

[Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con)]

6. What steps are being taken to protect churches and churchyards against metal theft.

[Tony Baldry]

The Bishop of London, Anne Sloman, the chair of the cathedral and church buildings division of the Church of England, and myself have had numerous detailed discussions with a number of Ministers on the issue of metal theft from church property.

[Tom Blenkinsop]

Incidents of metal theft, including vandalism of war memorials, in the church diocese of York have increased by 61% in the past year alone. Would the hon. Gentleman be willing to meet me to talk about how we can help parishes in my constituency that are suffering from such crimes?

[Tony Baldry]

I would, of course, be very happy to do that.

[Guy Opperman]

Metal theft is a huge issue that concerns Church leaders across all faiths in Northumbria. Does my hon. Friend agree that the punishments for those who steal from churches and churchyards should be both severe and a proper deterrent?

[Tony Baldry]

As became clear in our recent debate on metal theft, there is a general desire across the House for the courts seriously to consider deterrent sentences for what is a despicable crime.

[John Cryer (Leyton and Wanstead) (Lab)]

This crime is a threat to some of the greatest buildings and monuments across Britain. Is there any possibility of grants being made available to churches so that security can be improved to protect against it?

[Tony Baldry]

As may come up later, those churches that use SmartWater or that install roof alarms have found that the incidence of metal theft has been substantially reduced. SmartWater and roof alarms are not necessarily that expensive and I hope that all churches will look at how they can improve security to deter metal theft.

[Mr Mark Spencer (Sherwood) (Con)]

Does my hon. Friend know whether the Church Commissioners have had discussions with English Heritage about allowing fibreglass replacements of lead roofs so that the crime is no longer a temptation?

[Tony Baldry]

We are in continuous discussions with English Heritage about what can be done in replacing lead roofs, but 60% of grade-I listed buildings in this country are Church of England churches, and there are some restraints as a consequence of those listings.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

5. What plans the Church Commissioners have to provide support for Christian communities in Syria.

[Tony Baldry]

The Archbishop of Canterbury and his staff are in regular contact with the Bishop of Jerusalem, whose diocese includes Syria. The archbishop has just returned from a personal pilgrimage to the middle east and has seen at first hand the issues facing Christians living there. The people of Syria who are being subjected to crimes against humanity need the prayers and support of all in this House.

[Mr Hollobone]

I am sure that we would all support the end of the Assad regime, but it has at least protected the Christian community in Syria from some of the more radical Islamist elements in that society. Does my hon. Friend share my concern about whether the Christian communities in Syria, which are substantial, will get the protection they need if the regime goes, as I am sure we all hope it will, and a new Islamist regime comes in?

[Tony Baldry]

My hon. Friend raises an interesting point. It is a fact that Christians in Syria have found a modus vivendi in the past and it is a real tragedy that such human rights atrocities have taken place in Syria. Throughout the middle east, I am afraid, Christians are being put under intolerable strain and pressure, and that must be a matter of concern for us all.

[Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)]

7. What recent representations the Church Commissioners have received on bats in churches; and if he will make a statement.

[Tony Baldry]

On 29 November the Bishops of Lincoln, Norwich and Chelmsford and I met the Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, my hon. Friend the Member for Newbury (Richard Benyon), to discuss how we could better deal with bats in churches. Also at the meeting were representatives of Natural England and the cathedral and church buildings division of the Church of England. I wish to thank the Minister at DEFRA who is working closely with the Church of England to support that work.

[Miss McIntosh]

I thank my hon. Friend for that reply. Are we not over-exuberant in our implementation of the habitats directive? Will he welcome DEFRA’s review to make sure that we are not gold-plating, so that the congregation at St Hilda’s church in Ellerburn can enjoy the facilities they usually enjoy?

[Tony Baldry]

I very much welcome the initiative taken by DEFRA Ministers. At the meeting I mentioned, the Minister made it very clear that he thought it was unacceptable that churches could not be used for public worship as a consequence of infestation by bats. He made it very clear to officials in his Department and officials from Natural England that he was looking to them to come forward with solutions in respect of the worst-affected churches and to report back by the autumn of this year.

[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

8. What recent representations he has received on the implications for the Church Commissioners of the Government’s plans to introduce same-sex marriage.

[Tony Baldry]

The Church of England will be making a detailed submission to the forthcoming consultation exercise, which will provide an opportunity for a more focused critique of what is proposed, including the proposal to distinguish in law between civil and religious marriage.

[Mr Bone]

I am very grateful for my hon. Friend’s response. Would it not be very simple just to write back and say, “Marriage is between a man and a woman so this is completely nuts”?

[Tony Baldry]

I am quite relieved by that question because I feared that we might have a question about Mrs Bone and, assuming that Mr and Mrs Bone are already married, I was not quite sure how I was going to deal with that. My hon. Friend is absolutely right. So far as the Church of England, the Roman Catholic Church and many other faith groups are concerned, marriage is a union between one man and one woman. That is a point that we will be putting forward, I hope, responsibly and clearly in the consultation.

[Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab)]

9. How many churches use forensic marking systems to prevent metal theft from church property; and what the cost is of such systems.

[Tony Baldry]

The use of forensic marking is widespread and is strongly encouraged at diocesan level and by insurers. Some 12,500 churches have registered with the SmartWater scheme. SmartWater has been successful in a number of cases involving arrests and successful prosecutions. An increasing number of churches are also now fitting roof alarms.

[Valerie Vaz]

I recently visited a church dedicated to St Materiana in Tintagel. It is a small church carrying the SmartWater sign. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the costs should not be prohibitive so that smaller churches can remain open for worshippers and visitors?

[Tony Baldry]

I would hope that it would not be prohibitive for any church to install SmartWater. I take note of the hon. Lady’s point, however, because I would hope that, in such circumstances, dioceses could help small churches with the funding that they need to protect their heritage.

[Mr Speaker]

I am sure that the House is grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his replies to nine successive questions, and for the prodigious work rate he has just demonstrated.