Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Fourth sitting)

Tom Gordon Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 29th January 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Sarah Olney (Richmond Park) (LD)]

Q Dr Griffiths, do you think it is possible that disabled people are likely to be or potentially more at risk of being coerced or otherwise persuaded to seek assisted dying as a result of the Bill?

Dr Griffiths: I think so—I think the coercion principles outlined in the Bill are incredibly weak in terms of the scrutinising and the process of how you judge whether coercion has taken place. We know that coercion is a complex issue, but put that against the context of disabled people’s lives; we are talking about disabled people who are struggling day to day to access sufficient support and to live in participatory, accessible societies. The feeling, then, of societal coercion—the feeling that this is a tolerable idea—highlights my concerns about coercion.

It also plays into the issue of support and assistance to understand what your rights are, not just in terms of what we are talking about here but broader disabled people’s rights. There is a lack of advocacy services available to disabled people, and there is a lack of support for disabled people to have accessible information about their rights. If you feel that assisted dying is your only choice—as opposed to accessing support or calling out discriminatory practices in, say, access to social care and healthcare—that highlights, again, situations where coercion will manifest. The infrastructure to support people either to respond to coercion, or to understand that they do not have to be in that position in the first place, is non-existent.

[Tom Gordon (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (LD)]

Q One of the things that we have heard from other countries that have assisted dying is that this is one of the strongest and most robust laws. I wonder whether Professor Shakespeare has any more views on how we could make the Bill even tighter, and provide support and further peace of mind to people who might be worried about it?

Professor Shakespeare: When I read the Bill, I thought that it did have many safeguards. It has, for example, five opportunities for a conversation with doctors or other supporters. That is a good safeguard. I think it makes a criminal offence of dishonesty, coercion or pressure, so that would scare off people. Miro is quite right—there are people who might put influence on somebody, but I hope that they would be covered under clause 26 as having committed an offence. That would scare people who may have a particular view against assisted dying.

How can we make it stronger? We could have more of an advocate for the person who is requesting assisted dying—somebody who will support them, within the law, to make that decision or to think about their decision. We are trying to make sure that everybody who is thinking that this is for them has the opportunity to talk about it and to think about it. The time and the conversations are all about that, but maybe an advocate also would be the person who is requesting this step, who is not a beneficiary in any way of that death, and they could be a neutral party to give advice. I am not sure. However, there is a lot here. There are five conversations. I am not surprised that people thought it was strong. I think it is a strong Bill.

There is scope for doctors and other medical practitioners to act on their conscience and to withdraw from this. Miro made a useful point, which is that we do not want any disabled person frightened of their doctor or worried that their doctor, who has been supporting somebody else to die, might do that with them. In conversation, Marie, we have talked about an assisted dying service as being a part of the NHS, but I wonder whether it might be specifically around this. I think that it is worth considering whether the average doctor is the person to whom a person should take a concern or a wish to die.

So this is about advocacy and maybe having a specific service for people who want to go down that route. However, I think it is a strong Bill as it stands.

[Tom Gordon]

Q One of the things that we have heard from other people and other jurisdictions is about moving away from a High Court judge, and having a multidisciplinary team and panel. Do you think that would further strengthen the Bill, and would you support that?

Professor Shakespeare: I think the law is only one of the influences that might be involved. There is also physical health, mental health and social wellbeing. I think a multidisciplinary panel might be a better way of finding out. But I bow to my friend Mr Amin, who has a lot more experience of legal panels than I have.

[The Chair]

Mr Amin, do you want to comment?

Yogi Amin: The way the Bill is drafted, the judges reviewing the case are not making an order; they are declaring a plan that someone else has produced and has put in front of them. It is a strong, independent, legal and judicial safeguard, as part of the Bill. My written submission, you will note, says that the courts are well used to doing that. The courts have been doing it for many years. They have been dealing with disputes over facts, disputes over capacity and disputes over medical treatment. They are able to identify safeguarding issues. The courts and the judges are certainly able to do it. I am not speaking to the question of capacity. If the question is about whether to introduce something different from a High Court judge, I will wait to see it and scrutinise it, but as it is drafted at the moment, I would say that a High Court judge is a strong legal safeguard as part of the mix of safeguards in the Bill.

Oral Answers to Questions

Tom Gordon Excerpts

Tuesday 7th January 2025 Commons Chamber

[Karin Smyth]

The hon. Gentleman makes an excellent point, particularly with regard to staff, who need support to continue their important work. A new start with new leadership is what they need, as well as implementation of the recommendations.

[Tom Gordon (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (LD)]

8. What steps his Department is taking to improve access to mental health services.

[Gideon Amos (Taunton and Wellington) (LD)]

20. What steps his Department is taking to improve access to mental health services.

[The Minister for Care (Stephen Kinnock)]

As Lord Darzi’s independent investigation found, around 1 million people are waiting to access mental health services in England. This Government will fix our broken mental health services by recruiting 8,500 more mental health workers, providing access to specialist mental health professionals in every school and rolling out young futures hubs in every community.

[Tom Gordon]

In my constituency of Harrogate and Knaresborough we have heard harrowing stories from people who have tried to reach out and get access to mental health services before they reach crisis point. Often, people end up facing months-long if not years-long waiting lists. When all too often they reach a crisis point, they end up having to access services as far away as Newcastle or Manchester. What are the Government doing to make sure that we can root local community mental health facilities in communities such as Harrogate and Knaresborough?

[Stephen Kinnock]

In addition to the measures that I just set out, in the Budget the Chancellor made funding available to expand talking therapies to 380,000 extra patients. We have a £26 million capital investment scheme for mental health crisis centres and, as always with this Government, investment goes with reform. We are finally reforming the Mental Health Act—that was first talked about when Theresa May was in 10 Downing Street. This Government are rolling up their sleeves and getting on with the job.

Oral Answers to Questions

Tom Gordon Excerpts

Tuesday 19th November 2024 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Kinnock]

Obviously the golden hello scheme for rural areas is very important. We are pushing forward on that, and I am pleased to say that hundreds have expressed interest in it and appointments are starting on that basis. The hon. Gentleman is right about training places. As I have already mentioned, we are very open to establishments and institutions coming forward with proposals for that. We are living in a country where the biggest cause of hospital admission for five to nine-year-olds is having their rotten teeth removed. That is a truly Dickensian state of affairs, and it needs to be fixed as a priority.

[Tom Gordon (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (LD)]

Earlier this year, I was at an orthodontist’s practice that carries out work on behalf of the NHS. It said the issue is that when people are referred to it by their general dentist, it cannot go on to do the orthodontic work because their teeth are in too bad a state, so they are referred back to the dentist, but they cannot get in because of waiting lists and issues. When we look at reforming dental contracts, will we look at orthodontic ones too?

[Stephen Kinnock]

Absolutely. As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has said, we have already met with the British Dental Association, and no issues are off the table. We absolutely need to look at orthodontists in the round as part of the contract negotiations, and we will certainly report back on that in due course.

Income Tax (Charge)

Tom Gordon Excerpts

Tuesday 5th November 2024 Commons Chamber

[Tom Gordon (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (LD)]

There are two key points that stick out in the Budget. The first has been referenced by colleagues from across the House, and it is the elephant in the room to which Liberal Democrats keep referring: social care. Members have eloquently made the point that if we do not fix social care, we will not fix the NHS. A personal experience of mine is a great example. A couple of years ago, my grandfather sadly passed away. He spent the last six months of his life bed blocking in hospital, repeatedly getting covid and pneumonia because he could not leave hospital and go home. I do not blame the NHS for his passing, but if he had been better cared for with an adult social care package at home, there might have been a different outcome.

The problem with the Budget is that while there is a token gesture for local government, what is provided is nowhere near enough to fix the gap in adult social care. The House is full of Members who have worked in local government and served as councillors, and who understand that often more than half a budget goes on adult social care. The problem will not be fixed by our tinkering around the edges; we need a lot more to support social care and the NHS.

I am worried about unintended consequences. A couple of weeks ago, I met a constituent who is working in the NHS. She is a single parent, and her daughter has SEND issues. Because local authority schools in the area could not meet her needs, she paid for her daughter to go to an independent, fee-paying school where she could get the support that she needed, but because of the introduction of VAT on school fees, my constituent will have to consider leaving the NHS and working in the private sector, so that she can afford to keep her daughter in that school and meet her needs. I am worried about the wider ramifications of some of the Government’s decisions. In this case, healthcare staff would be taken out of the NHS because of Budget measures. I hope the Government will reflect on that, and consider what more can be done to ensure that we support NHS staff in their current roles, whether that is giving them more pay rises or more support in the workplace, or by ensuring that someone does not have to leave their NHS role in order to afford to keep the provision of their daughter’s SEND needs and capabilities.

Earlier the Secretary of State made a point about prevention. Local authorities often provide that first line of public health prevention, but the money that underpins that is just not enough. We know that every pound spent saves countless more for the NHS, so I urge the Secretary of State to take a strong approach to prevention and invest in community pharmacies.

Access to Primary Healthcare

Tom Gordon Excerpts

Wednesday 16th October 2024 Commons Chamber

[Tom Gordon (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (LD)]

Let me begin by congratulating my Liberal Democrat colleagues on some fantastic maiden speeches, which have given me a lot to live up to. While I am on the subject of thanking people, let me confess that I committed a cardinal sin at my election count: I reeled off my Oscars award-style speech recognising everyone who had played a part in the previous 30 years of my life, but importantly forgot to acknowledge my agent—the worst thing that any political candidate or Member of Parliament could do. I have not yet lived that down.

Still on the topic of thank-yous and acknowledgements, I want to thank my Tory predecessor, Andrew Jones, for his hard work as a valued constituency MP, which many people mentioned throughout the election campaign, and for his work in securing bathing water status for the River Nidd.

This may seem a little too obvious, but the two principal towns in my constituency are Harrogate and Knaresborough. Knaresborough does not like coming second, for a good reason: it is the older town, an ancient market town featuring a fantastic castle and the Nidd gorge, with a view over the River Nidd. It has a strong sense of community, and I encourage anyone who has not heard of the Knaresborough bed race to google it after my speech—it is a truly unique event.

Harrogate is a famous old spa town. It has been renowned for its healing waters, which have drawn people from all corners of the globe, including the Russian aristocracy and—previously—its royal family. Agatha Christie turned up there after a nationwide manhunt. It is a place of intrigue, but in more recent years it has become a place of culture, a cultural gem in the north. We have the fantastic Harrogate international festivals, whose annual calendar ranges from literature to art and everything in between. We also have RHS Garden Harlow Carr—we are a flower town, and have won many awards at both regional and international bloom festivals.

We also have Harrogate Convention Centre. A little while ago, before I was born, Eurovision was hosted there. One of the most frequent suggestions that comes up is that I should launch a campaign to get Eurovision back. That relies on our getting millions of pounds of investment into the convention centre, something for which I have already been campaigning. This is probably a little-known fact for those on the Government Benches, but we will have something almost rivalling Eurovision next March, namely the Liberal Democrat spring conference—and the Glee Club will be in town!

As well as the towns of Harrogate and Knaresborough, my constituency contains a wide range of villages, but what interests me is the people—it is the people who make our area so fantastic. It is that Yorkshire grit, determination and resilience that really make our area shine. Let me give the House a few bits and pieces of potted history, featuring some famous and some more infamous folk from my part of the world. There is Mother Shipton, Knaresborough’s answer to Nostradamus, who was made something of a pariah and cast into a cave, and called a witch to boot. To this day, the cave is one of the biggest tourist attractions in the area. On the more infamous side, we play host to the childhood home of no friend of this place, Guy Fawkes; the less said about him, probably, the better. We also have more modern and contemporary people, such as the Lionesses’ Rachel Daly, and Olly Alexander as well. One person who sticks out in the history books is Blind Jack, who is said to have been the founder of modern road building. He built kilometres on kilometres, or miles and miles, of turnpikes centuries ago, and rumour has it that North Yorkshire council might get around to repairing them some time soon. As I have said, it is the people who make my constituency great.

Let me now reflect on the topic of today’s debate. I think the reason health is so important to us is that in those moments of desperation, worry and anxiety when we reach out and go to that frontline of primary healthcare—when we see our GPs—we are truly human. Looking back at some of the more formative moments of my life and experience, my life has been changed when I have gone to a GP.

It is apposite that I am giving my maiden speech today, during Breast Cancer Awareness Month. People have been wearing lot of fantastic bright pink outfits to highlight that cause. The reason I got involved in politics is that the day before I started my master’s degree in public health, my mum was diagnosed with breast cancer. Fortunately, she has recovered and is fine now, and I have even made her a Lib Dem councillor in Wakefield— she has not yet forgiven me for that. When we were going through that experience, I dropped down to doing my degree over two years so that I could look after her and my little sister, who was just five at the time.

We know that being able to access healthcare is the most important factor in getting a good outcome. Fortunately in our case, my mum was fine, but the complications of having gone through lots of surgery and chemotherapy still live with her today. As someone who lives with a chronic condition—earlier this year I was diagnosed with ulcerative colitis—I know that getting through the door to see a GP can be the biggest barrier to getting a diagnosis, treatment and support.

I would not be here without my constituents. It is an honour and a privilege to have been elected to represent the people of Harrogate and Knaresborough, and I shall do my best, whether it be on health, culture and tourism, or whatever wonderful fortunes and opportunities await me.

Unpaid Carers

Tom Gordon Excerpts

Tuesday 3rd September 2024 Commons Chamber

[Wendy Chamberlain]

I am grateful to the hon. Member for that intervention. He is absolutely right, and as he and I know, having served in the last Parliament, during covid the lack of respite care was a critical factor for many carers. It is clear that we all need to do more in that area.

We were talking about how vital carers are to our economy and society. The economic value of unpaid care is £162 billion a year in England and Wales, £13.1 billion in Scotland and £5.8 billion in Northern Ireland. We know the country’s finances have been left in a ruinous state by the last Government, and that the social care system is already stretched to breaking point. We must also know that we cannot take the contribution of unpaid carers for granted, so I hope that the Minister will take tonight as an opportunity to show that the Government do care about unpaid carers.

In a debate shortly before the general election was called, the then shadow Minister for care, who is now a Minister, the hon. Member for Gorton and Denton (Andrew Gwynne), committed Labour to developing a new carers strategy if it formed the next Government:

“There will be a carers strategy under the next Labour Government, because we value the vital work our carers do. It will be a cross-Government strategy with the Department for Work and Pensions, Department for Education and the future of work review all feeding into it along with the Department of Health and Social Care. There is a brighter future for those living with dementia and their families and carers. Labour will deliver it.”

Given that promise, I hope that the Minister can understand why I and many whom I have spoken to in the care third sector were disappointed that unpaid carers were not mentioned at all in the Labour manifesto. At the same point in the speech I just referred to, the then shadow Minister said that unpaid carers

“will be at the heart of Labour’s plans in Government.” —[Official Report, 16 May 2024; Vol. 750, c. 228WH.]

I hope the Minister will take tonight’s debate as an opportunity to make that case.

[Tom Gordon (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (LD)]

I thank my hon. Friend for bringing forward this Adjournment debate, and of course for the work she did before this parliamentary Session on what is now the Carer’s Leave Act 2023. One of the reasons why I became involved in politics is that the day before I started my master’s degree, my mum was diagnosed with breast cancer. I studied my degree part-time over two years to look after her and my little sister, who was just five. Looking back, it is clear that I was filling the role of a carer, but I did not identify as one. That is a key point to note if we are to have a carers strategy. A recent Carers Trust survey found that 73% of those who provide or have provided unpaid care do not identify as unpaid carers. Does my hon. Friend agree that a national carers strategy should prioritise the identification of carers across all sectors?

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Ms Ghani)]

Order. This is an Adjournment debate and interventions must be super-short.