Persecution of Religious Minorities: Pakistan

Tobias Ellwood Excerpts

Thursday 11th February 2016 Westminster Hall

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr Tobias Ellwood)]

It is a pleasure to work under your chairmanship today, Mr Brady. I confess I have a terrible cold, so my speech will, I think, read better than it will sound. I apologise and hope that hon. Members will bear with me.

I think that this has been a phenomenal debate, and a very important one. I pay tribute to the incredible contributions that have been made, with passion, expertise and the determination to raise an important issue. Many questions have been raised, and I will do my best to respond to a number of themes that have come up. However, as I have pledged and, I hope, done in the past, I will write to hon. Members with more details if I do not have the opportunity to cover everything to the extent they expect.

I will begin as other hon. Members have done, by congratulating the hon. Member for Mitcham and Morden (Siobhain McDonagh) on securing this worthwhile debate. The standard of that debate reflects what the Labour party spokesman, the hon. Member for Leeds North East (Fabian Hamilton) pointed out—the House’s close interest in human rights issues not just in this country but throughout the world. He is right; and this country has a proud reputation for defending the rights of minorities such as the Yazidis of Iraq and Syria; the Baha’i of Iran; and the Buddhists and Rohingya Muslims of Burma. We have stood up for individuals such as Meriam Ibrahim in Sudan. She was raised as a Muslim but chose to follow and marry into the Christian faith, and for that choice she was punished, charged with apostasy and adultery, and imprisoned with her young son while heavily pregnant.

Today, with intolerance very much on the rise, we now see reports of anti-Semitic and anti-Christian attacks even here in Europe. It is especially important that we stand up for people’s right freely to express their faith, or indeed to have no faith at all. I welcome this opportunity to debate the specific issues of religious minorities in Pakistan, which I do not recall the House discussing during my time as Minister for the middle east, north Africa and south-east Asia.

My hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Scully) and others have mentioned the important contribution of the Pakistani diaspora to this country, which is important to recognise, and I am glad that it has been expressed today. Before going into the details, I say at the outset that we have a strong, powerful and important relationship with Pakistan. We have a historical relationship—Pakistan is a close ally in the Commonwealth —and we have a commercial relationship, too. Bilateral trade with Pakistan is moving towards £3 billion. We have shared security interests in the region and, as I have mentioned, we have a massive diaspora relationship, with thousands of people moving backwards and forwards between Pakistan and this country every single month.

As the hon. Member for Bradford West (Naz Shah) said in her powerful speech, Pakistan is an important country that has made progress over past decades and has gone through a difficult period as it moves from military governance to civilian governance. We should applaud and encourage the continuing path in that direction. It is important to recognise where Pakistan has come from, but our relationship means that we can have frank and important conversations about some of the details that we have discussed today. That is where we are with our relationship. I address some of the challenges that we face knowing that Pakistan is a friend, and friends should be able to say such things on the record as matters of concern.

The all-party parliamentary group on the Ahmadiyya Muslim community, which is chaired by the hon. Member for Mitcham and Morden, does a great deal of valuable work to support the beleaguered Ahmadiyya minority in many countries across the world. We are not only dealing with Pakistan; other countries have been mentioned, too. I pay tribute to the group’s work. We met to discuss these issues on 20 January—my hon. Friend the Member for Congleton (Fiona Bruce) and the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon), who is a regular at debates on such matters, were also there. I admire and pay tribute to the group’s leadership and chairman.

It is important that the all-party parliamentary groups on the Ahmadiyya Muslim community and on international freedom of religion or belief work together and continue to bring such matters to the fore and that we debate them in the House. Both groups discharge an invaluable service in reminding us of the importance of the freedom of religion or belief, which we in the UK are lucky enough to take for granted, but some people in other countries cannot, as we have heard today.

Religious minorities suffer more than most, and it is right that we should speak up for them on their behalf if we see evidence that their voices are not being heard and that their rights are being denied. Today’s debate, unfortunately, is a sad reminder of the persecution suffered by Ahmadiyya Muslims in Pakistan. As has been said, the Pakistani constitution discriminates against them. They struggle to exercise their right to vote because they have to state their religion from a list on the ballot paper, and because the religion is not recognised they are denied the ability to vote. The hon. Member for Scunthorpe (Nic Dakin) mentioned education, and Ahmadiyya Muslims are denied education for the same reasons. They face arbitrary detention, their literature is banned, their mosques are attacked and, as the hon. Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West (Margaret Ferrier) and others have said, their minarets are also destroyed.

The hon. Member for Ochil and South Perthshire (Ms Ahmed-Sheikh), the spokesman for the Scottish National party, also talked about the lack of justice in Pakistan. Last year’s Foreign and Commonwealth Office annual human rights report detailed cases of extremists specifically targeting Ahmadiyya Muslims. The report highlighted the case of an Ahmadiyya man who was shot and killed after a Muslim leader denounced the Ahmadiyya as “enemies of Pakistan” on a popular television show. I am sorry to say that it is not only the Ahmadiyya Muslim community that experiences persecution. Shi’a, Hazara, Christian and other religious communities also face intimidation and violence, forced conversion and marriage, attacks on places of worship and sectarian killings. All those appalling abuses continue to take place.

The misuse of blasphemy laws against Muslims and members of religious minorities, such as Christians, can lead to mob violence and the potential use of the death penalty against victims, which is a particular concern. A stark example is the case of Mrs Asia Bibi, a Christian lady who was accused of blasphemy after drinking water from the same bowl as a Muslim woman. She is facing execution after five years on death row. People in her own village, including religious leaders, have publicly stated that they would kill her if she is released. I continue to follow her appeal process very closely.

The Government deplore violations of the right to freedom of religion or belief, wherever they occur. We regularly urge the Government of Pakistan to honour their international commitments and guarantee fully the human rights of all Pakistani citizens. The scale of the challenge facing Pakistan is illustrated in the film “He Named Me Malala,” which I saw a couple of months ago. I had the honour of meeting Malala Yousafzai when she spoke at the Syria conference last speak, highlighting again the plight of minorities. It was an honour to have her at the conference.

[Paul Scully]

Does the Minister agree that, especially when we have an unstable world and an unstable region, it is important that we act as a critical friend to Pakistan and work with it to ensure that the country is stable so that it can progress?

[Mr Ellwood]

My hon. Friend makes an important point, and I will address the role of the Department for International Development. Pakistan is a country in which we invest an awful lot of money. There have been many questions about whether that funding should be conditional, and I will address those issues. He makes a valid point, and we are a friend of Pakistan. We want to work with the country, which allows us to highlight such areas to ensure that there is progress.

[Siobhain McDonagh]

I can see that the Minister is in trouble with his cold. I am unclear on whether the governor of Punjab has been to the UK or is about to come to the UK. If he has been, were the Government able to raise the issue of the Ahmadiyya in his region? If he is about to come, will the Minister include it in those discussions?

[Mr Ellwood]

I met the governor of Punjab—he happens to be the brother of the Prime Minister of Pakistan, so he has access to the powerbase—prior to meeting the APPG, so I did not specifically raise the plight of the Ahmadiyya community, but I did raise other matters. The plan is that I will visit the country in the near future. I, the Foreign Secretary and others have taken many opportunities to raise these issues and the plight of other minorities in Pakistan.

Our high commissioners are being changed over, and this morning I met Tom Drew, our next high commissioner, who is about to depart for Islamabad, and we discussed these very issues. He is aware of the concern and of the fact that this debate is happening today. We have also raised the issue with the Pakistani high commissioner in London, and I assure the hon. Lady that the next time I meet the Chief Minister of Punjab I will raise it with him, too.

[Jim Shannon]

I understand that the Minister’s voice is under some pressure; we can appreciate that. I just gently say to him that there will be a report from the all-party group on international freedom of religion or belief, which will be the Pakistan inquiry. It might be helpful for him to receive a copy. If he is happy with that, when we get a chance we will ensure that he receives a copy of the report—the inquiry was chaired by Lord Alton of the other place—as it might be helpful when it comes to presenting the case on behalf of all those religious minorities in Pakistan.

[Mr Ellwood]

I will be very grateful to receive that; I thank the hon. Gentleman very much indeed for the offer.

In addition to the conversations that I have already mentioned, in August last year the Foreign Secretary expressed our concerns about religious freedom and the misuse of the blasphemy laws in Pakistan. The misuse of those laws is at the core of what we are discussing here. Our concern is that sometimes judges are not willing to enforce these blasphemy laws because of concerns about their own safety. We need to encourage and further advance greater maturity of the justice system in Pakistan.

I have also impressed on the Pakistani high commissioner to the UK, Syed Abbas, the importance not only of respecting the rights of religious minorities in Pakistan but the importance of the Ahmadiyya, Shi’a, Hazara and Christian communities, many of which we have referred to in debates here in Westminster Hall and in the main Chamber.

We also work through the European Union to promote human rights overseas. For example, the EU preferential market access scheme has helped to incentivise progress on human rights in Pakistan. This has led to the creation of a cell to help with the implementation of international human rights obligations. Also, Pakistan has submitted overdue UN treaty reports and re-established a Government ministry specifically to lead on human rights. That is a very important and welcome development. This progress is encouraging, but we cannot be complacent. We recognise the need to maintain the pressure on the Government of Pakistan to honour their commitments to human rights, and we will continue to do that.

I turn now to some of the other matters that have been raised this afternoon. First, there is the issue of international aid. Aid is provided not on a national basis but on a federal basis, so we discuss these matters with the various chief ministers in Pakistan. As hon. Members know, the Foreign Office does not lead on aid, but I promise hon. Members that I will meet the relevant Minister in the Department for International Development to make sure that we can see that aid is being properly distributed in Pakistan.

Hon. Members will be aware that we have a proud legacy of making sure that aid goes to vulnerable people and is not somehow tied up in conditionality. The problem with placing conditions on the aid that we give is that we can end up denying it to the very vulnerable people whom we want to support. So we need to look at cognitive measures that will enhance and encourage change, but also recognise that the DFID contribution to Pakistan is immense. Indeed, I think that it is one of the highest aid contributions in the world.

[Fiona Bruce]

I fully accept what the Minister is saying about conditionality. The important issue that I ask him to raise with DFID Ministers is the fact that religious discrimination is a root cause of poverty, as we have demonstrated today in this Chamber. However, in my opinion, to date DFID Ministers have not sufficiently addressed this issue as a cause of poverty in the way that other issues have been addressed, for fear of appearing to discriminate. That is a hurdle in thinking that we need to overcome.

[Mr Ellwood]

My hon. Friend makes an important point about the criteria that must be met for aid to be advanced to a country. The development committee that focuses on these issues wrote the rules back in the 1950s, and the guidance on overseas development support was written in the aftermath of the second world war and designed to focus on poverty itself. We know today that instability is also directly linked to the cause of poverty, but the rules have not changed.

I have been encouraging change, and we are slowly moving in that direction. Those rules need to be updated and advanced, to recognise other ways of ensuring that poverty can be tackled, such as by providing stability and improved governance, so that people make better decisions to move their country forward and also alleviate the challenges of poverty.



A number of hon. Members spoke not only about Pakistan but about the wider issues. I think we spoke of those issues when we met the all-party group on the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community. Bulgaria was mentioned as well, which raises eyebrows. This is a country in Europe; it is part of the European Union. Why on earth are we seeing this sort of persecution in Bulgaria as well? I raised this issue with my right hon. Friend the Minister for Europe, and he is pursuing it from his angle. I will ask him to be in touch with the hon. Member for Mitcham and Morden to provide an update of what is going on. However, I am aware that the Grand Mufti of Bulgaria is very influential in these circumstances. We need to work harder, particularly as Bulgaria is essentially part of the European community, to ensure that persecution of the Ahmadiyya community does not happen so close to the UK.

A couple of other countries were also mentioned at that meeting. For example, on Thailand we continue to work with the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, not only on a wide range of refugee issues but on persecution as well. Again, I will write to hon. Members with more details of what is happening on that front. As I say, Thailand was raised at the all-party group meeting. So, finally, was Indonesia.

Our ambassador in Jakarta has discussed these issues, including the plight of the Ahmadiyya community, with the Minister of Religious Affairs, and has urged him and other community leaders to ensure that the right of individuals to practise freedom of religion and belief is respected, and indeed protected. I understand that a Bill is now going through that is based on the protection of religious and faith communities, and I hope that that will be a major advancement in Indonesia. However, we need to keep the pressure on and keep working on this issue.

To conclude, I once again thank the hon. Member for Mitcham and Morden—

[Siobhain McDonagh]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Ellwood]

Of course.

[Siobhain McDonagh]

I apologise for extending the Minister’s time on his feet, but will he address the issue raised by my right hon. Friend the Member for East Ham (Stephen Timms) about the religious inter-faith forum? It was set up by the Foreign Office under the coalition Government, but at this time it does not seem to have been re-established.

[Mr Ellwood]

I had asked for a note on that, to see what had happened. If I may, I will write to the hon. Lady. I am not familiar with where things are at the moment, and it would be wrong for me to place something on the record without knowing the details. However, the importance of this issue has been raised; the hon. Lady’s point is on the record, and I will write to her with more details as to what stage that forum is at.

To conclude, Mr Brady, thank you very much indeed for the opportunity to place these important points on the record and to put into context the work that the Government are doing to put pressure on Pakistan, one of our important allies, to advance its views on dealing with the persecution of the Ahmadiyya, and indeed of other religious groups, in Pakistan and in other countries.

I assure hon. Members that we will continue to take every opportunity to raise issues of concern with the government of Pakistan; indeed, when I next meet the Chief Minister of Punjab, I will raise this issue. Our aim is, of course, that one day everyone, everywhere, whatever their faith or belief, will enjoy the rights that we in this country take for granted