Business of the House

Thomas Docherty Excerpts

Thursday 20th November 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hague]

I can see that Labour Members have a thing about the Chief Whip—I do not know whether it is an obsession, paranoia, stalking, or what it is. My right hon. Friend will be fascinated to hear these references to him. I have to tell the hon. Gentleman that we already have a very capable Lord Privy Seal in my right hon. and noble Friend—

[Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)]

It says here.

[Mr Hague]

No, it does not say it here; I am saying this off the top of my head. I do not have to have everything written down, I can tell the hon. Gentleman. The Lord Privy Seal is my right hon. and noble Friend Baroness Stowell of Beeston, the Leader of the House of Lords. There are a few functions attached to the job of Lord Privy Seal, and she discharges them with great distinction.

Finances of the House of Commons

Thomas Docherty Excerpts

Tuesday 11th November 2014 Commons Chamber

[John Thurso]

I understand that the Commission has reviewed the paper and that the initial decisions that needed to be taken to start that work have all been taken. As my hon. Friend knows, the decant space, which would have been one of the biggest blocks, has been acquired and is being fitted out and made available. My understanding is that work properly to scope the project is now under way. Clearly, in order to ensure the best value for the money spent, the work undertaken in scoping the project will reveal whether or not overall savings are available. At the moment, the budget is at its maximum because, quite properly, it has all the contingencies that could be put in. One hopes that proper scoping, including the point my hon. Friend raised, will lead to a tighter budget going forward and the work being completed on time. As he and I both know, however, public procurement is littered with projects for which aspirations were expressed that were not met. Hopefully, we have all learned lessons from that and will make sure that we deliver on time and on budget.

[Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)]

For the benefit of those of us who are not entirely familiar with the Commons accounting procedures—I appreciate what the right hon. Gentleman said about the R and R costs; because it has not yet been agreed whether we will decant at all, those costs have not been included—could he say what, if any, costs in the preparatory period have been accounted for in the tables set out?

[John Thurso]

Obviously, the cost of the options appraisal that is currently going through is, in part, being paid for out of the current estimate and might well be paid for in part from a future estimate, but it is in the budget and properly accounted for. I believe that we are talking about a total of around £7 million. If I am wrong, I am sure I will get inspiration in due course and come back to it. I might even read my vast file and come up with the figure before the end of the debate.

It has been said that spending £7 million on working out what needs to be done is a great deal of money. All my experience of working in the private sector on the refurbishment of large buildings and all I have observed from big projects such as nuclear decommissioning is that the more professional money spent in advance in scoping a project, so that it is really understood, the more effective the actual spend. I suggest that every pound spent now on working out what the problems are is at least a pound spent going forward. If I am wrong, I will come back to the hon. Gentleman.

In closing, I would like to commend again the professionalism of the House service and all those who work for us, and the tremendous improvements that have taken place in management systems and how things have been done over the years that I have been involved in the Finance and Services Committee, the Audit Committee and other bodies. This is the last occasion during this Parliament on which we will discuss the finances of the House. In commending the motion to the House, and in addition to the tributes I have paid on behalf of the House as a whole, I would like to express my personal gratitude for the support and help that I have received from the team, many of whom are watching us today. It has been a pleasure and a privilege to see this process through. The fact that there are in attendance fewer hon. Members than those who put their names down to speak today does not indicate any disinterest in the process, but is perhaps a reflection of the fact that we now publicise the plan so well that they do not feel it necessary to be present to suggest amendments to what we have put before them.

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[Sir Alan Haselhurst (Saffron Walden) (Con)]

I shall concentrate on the savings programme, and on section 3 of the report.

The biggest challenge in 2010, when the members of the present Administration Committee were appointed, was the target that the Committee had been set to cut the deficit in catering and retail from £5.9 million to £3 million by the end of the current Parliament. If my figure varies from that of my right hon. Friend the Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross (John Thurso), it is because it relates to both catering and retail. As my right hon. Friend said, we hope to achieve a lower figure than the £3 million target, which I think is reasonably to the credit of everyone who has been involved in trying to achieve it.

The Committee’s approach has been not just to rely on price increases, but to consider prudent cost-cutting and, more importantly, to increase demand. We resisted a move to separate retail from catering so that we could maintain like-for-like comparison, but we did agree on a separation of management, which has had a very beneficial effect. I shall say more about that later.

[Thomas Docherty]

Because I have the pleasure of serving under the right hon. Gentleman’s chairmanship, I understand what he means when he talks about the catering and retail subsidy. For the benefit of those who do not have that pleasure, will he confirm that our retail outlets have never been subsidised?

[Sir Alan Haselhurst]

Yes, absolutely. It was purely for budgeting purposes that the two were linked.

We faced a number of obstacles. For instance, there had been a 10% across-the-board hike in prices before our Committee and, indeed, the Finance and Services Committee, had taken office, and that had an initially bad effect on footfall.

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[Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to respond to this relatively brief debate on behalf of the Opposition. I should like to begin by paying tribute to the right hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross (John Thurso) for the way in which he chairs the Finance and Services Committee, as well as for his service in representing the smaller parties on the House of Commons Commission. That is not always the most glamorous of postings, and it is sometimes a thankless one, but it is critical none the less.

I should like to offer the House the apologies of the shadow Leader of the House, my hon. Friend the Member for Wallasey (Ms Eagle), for her absence from the debate. She and the Leader of the House are giving evidence this afternoon to the governance review. The irony that they are not here to take part in the debate on the finance relating to governance will not be lost on us.

We welcome the progress that is being made on the savings programme. The right hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross has already highlighted a number of savings relating to printing. I must confess that I am double-hatting here today, in that I also have the pleasure of serving under the chairmanship of the right hon. Member for Saffron Walden (Sir Alan Haselhurst) on the Administration Committee. One of the savings of which we are most proud—it was one that we proposed, and it was accepted—has been the ending of the printing of the leather-bound volumes of Hansard. We have saved the taxpayer more than £1 million a year—it is important to remember that we are talking about taxpayers’ money—by ending the slightly archaic ritual of printing 150 leather-bound volumes of Hansard every fortnight. They were probably just filling up attic space in hon. Members’ properties. Indeed, in some cases, they might even have been holding up the houses.

The right hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross also referred to the catering subsidy, which has been reduced by 47% over the past year. There are 15,000 people working on this site across the two Houses, many of whom are in low-paid jobs, and it is right that we, as a good employer, should provide subsidised canteen facilities. Equally, we recognise that, in this financial climate, we have a responsibility to reduce those costs wherever possible. We therefore welcome the 47% reduction that has been achieved in the first six months of this year. I think that the hon. Gentleman referred to a figure of £2.7 million. My understanding was that the figure for the first six months was £1.2 million, which was £360,000 better than the target. Can he confirm—or perhaps get inspiration that will allow him to confirm—that he is confident we can achieve that £2.7 million target for the year?

The right hon. Gentleman also mentioned restoration and renewal, rightly saying that financial planning is crucial. I suppose I am wearing a third hat because, again like the right hon. Member for Saffron Walden, I am a member of the Members advisory group that is assisting in the preparation for restoration and renewal. We believe it is right that we learn from not only mistakes made by other Parliaments, but good practice. Our Parliament is not unique; this is not the only Victorian-era building that requires substantial overhaul, and Parliaments around the world are facing similar challenges. Our colleagues in Canada, Austria and Finland are going through this process, and others will. Therefore, as the right hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross said, it is right that we get the planning right now, as we do not want to see a Holyrood debacle in future years. So we fully support the work being done in that area.

My hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) touched on the security contract. Obviously, I am not going to talk about the specifics, for the reasons that have been outlined by Madam Deputy Speaker. I observe only that we are paying about £30 million a year to the Metropolitan police for that contract, whereas the French National Assembly does not pay a penny for the security support it receives. I hope that the Serjeant at Arms and the director of security will seek to ensure that the taxpayer is not picking up an excessive cost for whoever gets the contract in future years—I am sure that will be the case.

The right hon. Member for Saffron Walden talked about the catering budget, and I will not repeat what he said. May I just echo his remarks about the progress that has been made, on not only obtaining greater income, but reducing our costs? I understand that we have finally hit the critical point where our staff-to-sales ratio has fallen below 100%—I believe it is now 88%, which is a step in the right direction. Labour Members were disappointed in one way that the European Union (Referendum) Bill died, because in the previous Session the Smoking Room was very popular among Conservative MPs on Thursday evenings before the debates on that Bill. I believe I am right in saying that we are now not likely to see as many Conservative MPs propping up the catering outlets on a Thursday evening. The Opposition also welcome the work being done on the diversification of retail opportunities, which the right hon. Gentleman mentioned. There were some recent discussions about extending further the range of products available, with some talk about having Deputy Speaker whiskies or beers. Apparently, that is popular elsewhere, but I could not comment on which would be the most popular Deputy Speaker brand.

The Opposition agree with the right hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross, the Chair of the Committee, that we should seek to make relevant external hire opportunities available, but we are also clear that we do not wish to see charities being priced out of using the facilities. Many hon. Members on both sides of the House have long supported local charities and good causes, and we think it is vital that the House balances the desire to bring in greater revenue through third party hires with the protection of smaller charities. We concur with the Committee on Standards that there should be no political fundraising on the premises. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will confirm that whatever external opportunities are provided, political fundraising will not be considered.

My hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield South East (Mr Betts) made an important point about staff relationships, and we agree with it; we wish to see greater progress being made on diversity and equality of staffing. The current Speaker and the House of Commons Commission have made progress on that, but it is important that that work continues. My right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz), in particular, has been championing the cause for some time.

I also want to thank the House staff for their work. A number of staff members have been praised already, so I will not repeat their names, but I wish to add four to the list on behalf of the Opposition: David Natzler, our acting Clerk, who is continuing the good work of his predecessor; John Borley, our director general of facilities, who manages a complex and challenging team; and it is only right that we pay tribute to two Clerks, Helen Wood, on the Administration Committee, and Bob Twigger, who not only clerked the Finance and Services Committee, but has the pleasure of being secretary to the House of Commons Commission—a double treat for him, no doubt!

One thing that my hon. Friend the Member for Wallasey raised last year, on which we are frustrated not to see more progress, is bicameral services. The Opposition appreciate that that is not entirely the fault of those on the Treasury Bench, as some of the responsibility—the culpability—does lie at the other end of the corridor. However, we already see a number of shared services on security, broadcasting and IT, so we feel it is ludicrous that we run two separate catering services and Library services. As the Administration Committee and the House of Commons Commission have said, real progress needs to be made. One hopes that with a new Clerk in post at this end of the building, a new Leader of the House at the other end and indeed a new Leader of the House—of course, temporarily—at this end, we will see in the last six months real dialogue on bringing things together. That is where there are some real opportunities for savings to be made. Obviously, I am also disappointed that the House of Lords does not have the equivalent savings programme in place. It is a credit to you, Mr Deputy Speaker, as one of the members of the Finance and Services Committee, that that Committee has driven savings across the board. We would, however, like to see the House of Lords take up more of its share of this programme.

We welcome the neutral financial remit, as has been set out already, and the fact that it does not set a particular spending path beyond 2015-16 that would fetter an incoming Commission. We entirely concur on the importance of Select Committees and scrutinising the work of the Government, and we welcome the extra funds that are being made available. Although we fully support the proposals for the e-petitions system and the new partnership across Government and the House of Commons, we are slightly concerned about the possibility for spending to rise. I hope the Deputy Leader of the House will confirm whether the Government believe that the overall cost of e-petitions and the Select Committee concerned should not add an additional burden to the Select Committee budget.

We entirely concur with the points made about the education centre, which we believe is an important contribution to fostering a higher level of political engagement among young people across the country. The recent referendum in Scotland demonstrates that when we find the right issue, we can engage young people. The education centre has our full support and we wish it full speed.

Let me close by setting out one important point. It is vital not only that Members have opportunities, through continual professional development, to improve our skill sets, but that the senior management team have the appropriate financial skill sets. My hon. Friend the shadow Leader of the House has made it clear that we believe that the senior management team, including the chief executive—this is without prejudging what the Select Committee under the chairmanship of my right hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) may decide upon—must have appropriate financial skills. I hope that the Deputy Leader of the House will echo that in his response.

This afternoon’s debate has been useful. I look forward to the last 177 days before the general election, and we look forward to continuing to make progress on delivering not just parliamentary scrutiny, but good value for the taxpayer at the same time.

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[John Thurso]

Proposals on the principles of the way forward, rather than the detail, have been received and will be put to the Commission and the House Committee of the Lords at their next meetings. If the proposals are agreed to in principle, the detailed work will take place, but I would not anticipate any particular changes until well into next year. I hope that answer is sufficient for the hon. Gentleman. The director of security would probably give him a fuller briefing, if he would like to take him up on that.

I thank my right hon. Friend the Member for Saffron Walden (Sir Alan Haselhurst) for his full account of the work of the Administration Committee. One of the features of this Parliament has been the Administration Committee and the Finance and Services Committee finding a very good way of working together, with the Administration Committee taking the lead on the services and the Finance and Services Committee taking the lead on the financial implications of that. I am most grateful for his contribution.

The shadow Deputy Leader of the House, or deputy shadow Leader of the House—I am not sure which way around it is—the hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife (Thomas Docherty), asked a number of substantial questions. The first was where I got the figure of £2.7 million from. The answer is page 10 of the report, which states:

“In the current financial year, at an equivalent point in the electoral cycle, it is forecast to be £2.7 million.”

However, he is absolutely right to ask, as always, because the update is that the like-for-like total net cost for catering services was £1.2 million in the first six months of 2014-15, against £2.25 million in the equivalent period of 2013-14, a reduction of £1.5 million, or 47%. Certainly, that being £360,000 better than budget, it is to be hoped that that will be carried through to the end of the year. I hope that is a reasonable answer. I will write to him about the first question he asked during my speech, but I direct him to annex D on page 32 in relation to the costs of restoration and renewal.

The hon. Gentleman mentioned charities. I absolutely agree that charities should not be penalised. That is part of the policies that have been adopted, and I see no chance of their being changed.

With regard to raising funds from those who come to watch us in this Chamber, there has never been any suggestion, ever, that money be paid by our constituents and the public to view the legislative process, Select Committee hearings, or any other part of our work—and nor should there be. There is a very distinct difference between people coming as members of the public to engage with the political process and those who come as tourists and pay for the privilege. The two are absolutely not linked.

[Thomas Docherty]

We entirely agree about the difference between tourism and watching the democratic process, but will the right hon. Gentleman confirm that the Commission supports the position of the Standards and Privileges Committee and the Opposition that political fundraising should not be allowed on the premises?

[John Thurso]

Indeed; I was about to come to that. It is in the purview of the Administration Committee, principally, but I am fairly certain that the policy is rigid and there is no known attempt to change it.

The hon. Gentleman raised the issue of bicameral services. It is of course worth remembering that the other place is a sovereign House, and therefore, in all we do, we negotiate with it, but cannot force it. This is not a matter for those on the Treasury Bench; it is a matter for the two Houses to reach a conclusion on. The reasonableness that their lordships demonstrated in so rapidly agreeing to a common procurement service bodes well for the future. Certainly, in any sane world, the whole Palace would be run as one, and I am sure that one day we will get there.

This has been a good debate, and I commend all Members who have taken part in it.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That this House notes the First Report of the Finance and Services Committee, HC 757, and the draft medium-term financial plan for the House of Commons as set out in the Appendix to the Report; and endorses the intention of the Finance and Services Committee to recommend to the House of Commons Commission a House of Commons: Administration Estimate for 2015-16 in line with the financial remit set by the House of Commons Commission.

Summer Adjournment

Thomas Docherty Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd July 2014 Commons Chamber

[Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to respond briefly to this debate on behalf of the Opposition, and I thank the Backbench Business Committee for initiating it. It seems to be a return to the traditions that we had until 2010-11, although we are using a slightly different format today. I do not intend to cover all the issues raised because I want to provide the Deputy Leader of the House the maximum opportunity to respond, but I thought that the speech by the hon. Member for Bracknell (Dr Lee) was one of the most thoughtful and powerful that I have heard this year. I hope that the Deputy Leader of the House will take the opportunity to provide a substantive reply to him on the possibilities for recall during the summer recess if the situation overseas deteriorates.

I echo the comments of the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) in wishing hon. Members who are getting married this week all the best. I am sure the whole House wishes them all the best for their futures.

A number of hon. Members have taken the opportunity to thank the staff of the House. On behalf of the Opposition, I join in thanking them, in particular Sam, Elaine, Joanna and Russell, our hard-working and very talented civil servants in the Opposition Whips Office, whom I know will have a very good summer without Members getting in the way of running the business.

A number of long-serving staff have retired or are in the process of doing so, including the Librarian, John Pullinger; Christine Gillie from the Library, who has provided many years of high-quality briefing on education; James Roberston, who started 20 years ago in the Serjeant at Arms Department, and who most recently served as director of accommodation and logistics services; Janet Rissen and Judith Welham, who have given excellent HR advice over many years; Amanda Waller, who has served a number of Committees and who has most recently served in support of our delegations to parliamentary assemblies; Chris Weeds, who has been engaged in providing education; and Clare Cowan, who started Parliament’s outreach efforts. We thank all those public servants, as well as many others whom I have been unable to mention and who are moving on this year, for all their efforts.

Of course, one other retirement is taking place in just a few short weeks. Sir Robert Rogers is held in the highest regard by all Members and all members of the House of Commons service. It is worth noting briefly how much the House has changed in the 42 years since Sir Robert joined the House service. The Clerk of the House at the time was Sir; the underground car park was a hugely controversial building project, opposed by many in the House service and many Members of Parliament; and Parliament had not yet found additional office accommodation. The Norman Shaw buildings as we know them were yet to be acquired, and were described just a few years after Sir Robert arrived as the Savoy of office accommodation, which perhaps goes to show how much Parliament has changed during Sir Robert’s time.

I am sure I speak for all Members when I wish all staff members who will be returning—Hansard, the Doorkeepers, the Clerks and everyone else—a very enjoyable and peaceful summer.

Finally, Madam Deputy Speaker, it is fair to say that you will be aware that not many Scottish Members of Parliament will be here during our September fortnight. Not only on behalf of the Scottish tourism industry, but on behalf of the referendum campaign, my hon. Friends and other Scottish MPs, I extend a very warm welcome to all Members of Parliament who wish to spend a bit of time this July and August, and indeed September, coming to Scotland, seeing the sights and knocking on those doors to keep the UK together.

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[Tom Brake]

Indeed. The hon. Gentleman asked whether the Government—or the international community—are failing in relation to Russia. I hope that it is possible to bring together the different players to ensure that action is taken, but we will have to wait and see what happens.

The hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) raised a number of issues. I will, if I may, highlight world hepatitis day to which he wanted to draw attention. He also talked about hepatitis C, and the need for greater diagnosis and publicity. He is also a doughty campaigner on behalf of the fire service, and he raised a number of issues in that regard, as he does on a regular basis in pre-recess Adjournment debates and at other opportunities. He referred again to Hillingdon council. He is clearly an assiduous campaigner and will not let the council off the hook if he thinks that it is up to no good.

The hon. Member for Pendle (Andrew Stephenson), who is in his place, talked about the important investment in schools and businesses in his constituency. Quite rightly, he highlighted the fact that, unfortunately, Rolls-Royce is having to retrench in his constituency, but I am sure that he will work with other community representatives to campaign on behalf of the aerospace industry to ensure that Pendle recovers from the loss. I commend him on the first and, I think, only use of the “long-term economic plan” phrase, which gives me an opportunity to say that the Government are building a stronger economy and a fairer society.

Finally, I echo the thanks of the hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife (Thomas Docherty) to long-serving members of staff—John Pullinger, Christine Gillie, James Robertson, Janet Rissen, Judith Welham, Amanda Waller, Chris Weeds and Clare Cowan—for all their efforts in the House in recent years.

[Thomas Docherty]

It was remiss of me not to mention this before. I mentioned Sir Barnett Cocks, who was the Clerk when Sir Robert first arrived. I am not sure whether the Minister is aware of this, but after Sir Barnett retired he published a book about Parliament. Does the Minister agree that it would be a good idea if the Clerk, in his newly acquired time, was able to bring out a publication on how Parliament works, and after that, perhaps one on cricket as well?

[Tom Brake]

I entirely agree with the hon. Gentleman. Sir Robert may have heard his entreaty to produce such things, but I will also use this as an opportunity to thank Sir Robert on behalf of all Members. Members should consider the range of things in which Sir Robert has been involved. Let me name just a few. He was involved in implementing the Modernisation Committee’s reform of the legislative process; writing the “Shifting the Balance” report of the Liaison Committee, which was a major step in Select Committee innovation before the Wright Committee; proposing the idea that the Prime Minister should appear before the Liaison Committee; and writing the so-called 75-point plan in the options for Commons reform, which are gradually being worked through. On the more administrative side, he began to grapple with some of the biggest challenges that we face, such as the need to invest substantially in ensuring that this building is fit for purpose for members of staff, Members and peers in decades to come. Sir Robert will be sorely missed by all Members of the House, and I have personally enjoyed his friendly, informative and experienced advice in the years that I have been here.

With that, I will finish by thanking all the staff—the police, the Clerks, the Chief Clerk, Sir Robert, staff in the Tea Room and everyone who supports us to enable us to do the job that we do. Without them it would not be possible, and we would not get the enjoyment out of it that we do.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That this House has considered matters to be raised before the forthcoming adjournment.

Business of the House

Thomas Docherty Excerpts

Thursday 19th June 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Lansley]

I am grateful to the shadow Leader of the House for her response to the forthcoming business.

The hon. Lady will have heard the statement on Iraq that the Foreign Secretary made on Monday, and he had the further opportunity to respond to Foreign and Commonwealth Office questions on Tuesday. Indeed, the debate that will follow business questions, on the statutory instrument relating to terrorism, will afford an opportunity to discuss some of the issues that the hon. Lady mentioned, particularly the security threats that the Prime Minister referred to yesterday.

We regard the developments in Iraq as extremely serious, as I am sure the House will agree. Fighting continues in Baqubah and close to Baghdad, as well as in the north of the country. The Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant is a violent and brutal group, and we must ensure that we understand what is happening and how it is appropriate for us to respond. The debate on terrorism that is to follow will enable my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary to amplify those points. Yesterday, the Prime Minister announced a further extension to our emergency support provided to refugees from that fighting, which the House will agree is tremendously important. The Foreign Secretary will continuously review whether it is necessary to make any further statement to the House.

Eleven Bills were announced in the Queen’s Speech—a substantial programme for a short Session. Three of those have been introduced in the Lords and three in this House. I am surprised that the shadow Leader of the House said that we have spent only half our time on legislation, because only half the time is available to the Government for legislation. In a four-day week of Chamber consideration in the Commons, two days are available to the Government, one day to the Opposition and one to the Backbench Business Committee. What the hon. Lady says is a statement of the—how shall we put it?—obvious.

Most remarks by the shadow Leader of the House seem to have been constructed around an interview given to The Times by Dominic Cummings. Frankly, I do not agree with anything he said, and I suspect that I am joined by my colleagues wholeheartedly in that thought.

[Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)]

Silence!

All-party Parliamentary Groups

Thomas Docherty Excerpts

Tuesday 13th May 2014 Commons Chamber

[Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)]

The Opposition recognise the importance of this issue, and the debate is particularly timely given the recent scandal involving Mr Patrick Mercer.

I want to begin by thanking the Standards Committee for conducting a thorough investigation into the running of all-party parliamentary groups. In particular, I thank my right hon. Friend the Member for Rother Valley (Kevin Barron) for his continued chairmanship of the Committee and the leadership that he has shown on the issue. I also thank all those Members who provided submissions, and those organisations and individuals who gave evidence to the Committee. The inquiry was, I think, an historic first in that I am not aware of a previous occasion on which a journalist—Mr Mark D'Arcy of the BBC—was asked to give evidence as an expert witness.

It is worth noting the origins of the inquiry. As the Committee report explains in its introduction, there has been disquiet about the increasing number of APPGs in recent years and, in particular, questions about whether they were susceptible to undue external influence. Mr Speaker’s working group on APPGs was established earlier in this Parliament to consider such issues. From the group’s comprehensive study, it was right that the decision was taken for the Standards and Privileges Committee, as it was then constituted, to look at the rules on registration.

In parallel, the Administration Committee, under the chairmanship of the right hon. Member for Saffron Walden (Sir Alan Haselhurst), has at the Commission’s request examined the impact of APPGs on the running of Parliament. The Administration Committee’s key recommendations, such as the scrapping of the APPG passes, reform of the security and room-booking process and the requirement to have a parliamentary contact included in the all-party group Whip, have already been implemented. The House is grateful to Mr Speaker and to the whole Commission for their leadership and the decisive action taken, in particular in the light of the events that transpired last summer.

Returning to the Standards Committee report before us, Labour concurs with all the proposed changes. The recommendations to scrap associate groups and to end non-parliamentarians having a vote in the running of parliamentary groups are correct. The raising of quorums for meetings and increasing the number of officers, while at the same time ending the requirement to have 20 signed-up parliamentarians, is sensible. As the Committee explained, the 20-member rule has led to a number of cases in which MPs and peers who play no active role in an APPG are dragooned into helping out colleagues to meet the targets, as well as obscuring those who are actually playing a key role in the running of an APPG.

Transparency of activities is vital. To that end, we also support the proposed threshold for donations or gifts in kind of greater than £500. The Committee’s logic in recommending the same threshold as for party donations seems to be an appropriate figure. We agree with what my right hon. Friend the Member for Rother Valley said, that requiring those groups that receive more than £12,500 a year to publish income and expenditure statements will go some way towards improving public confidence in APPGs. In short, where the Committee has recommended changes, Labour fully endorses the recommendations and urges the House to support them.

The Patrick Mercer case, however, has again highlighted the unease felt by many both inside and outside the House of Commons about the role that lobbyists and third-party organisations may play in the running of APPGs. In the interest of transparency, it might be appropriate at this point to highlight the fact that the charity for which my wife works provides the secretariat to a cross-party group in the Scottish Parliament. Cross-party groups are the equivalent of APPGs. Nevertheless, I recognise the role that lobbyists, charities and big business may play in providing secretariat and administrative support, which, for some people, has been and is still a contentious issue.

I note that the Standards Committee does not propose any alterations to the APPG rules on external support. As the Committee acknowledged, however, its report was produced without reference to the Patrick Mercer case. That scandal makes uncomfortable reading for all of us who believe that Parliament should be striving to restore public confidence in political participation. The Parliamentary Commissioner for Standards found that Mr Mercer sought to use an APPG as a vehicle for his commercial interests and that the pseudo-foundation that he proposed as the secretariat would be the engine of that vehicle.

Campaigners for greater transparency have long questioned why some organisations provide the secretariats to APPGs. As the Committee acknowledged:

“It would be naive to think that all the organisations supporting APPGs do so…for altruistic reasons”.

Indeed, the Chair of the Select Committee on Political and Constitutional Reform, my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham North (Mr Allen), warned only last week in the Chamber that

“all-party groups…are the next big scandal waiting to happen”—[Official Report, 8 May 2014; Vol. 580, c. 305.]

It is therefore sensible that the question whether it is acceptable for the secretariat to be provided externally be kept under review. Will the Leader of the House say, therefore, whether the Government share our view on that issue? Will he say whether the Government believe that a fresh, independent look at the issue should be considered in the next Session? Will he clarify whether the Government are relaxed about the question of lobbyists or big business playing a key role in the heart of the parliamentary system?

In conclusion, we believe that the report has much to commend it. It makes a range of important recommendations and also endorses the decisions of the Commission and the Administration Committee in a number of areas of the running of the House of Commons. We thank the Standards Committee for its work and endorse the motion.

--- Later in debate ---

[Hugh Bayley]

I am glad that my hon. Friend has had the opportunity to put that on the record. It is something that I observe from the work the group does.

I should declare a personal interest: I lost the chair of the Africa all-party group because a band of people not from my political party, by a more considerable margin than is normal for our meetings, were organised—perhaps that is the way to put it—to turn up and vote for someone else who, in fact, leads the group extremely well. None of that caucus, which was organised on party grounds to come in and depose someone and elect someone else, had ever been to a meeting of the Africa all-party group, nor has any of them been to a meeting since. I would make the same statement in relation to the Africa group as my hon. Friend the Member for Slough made in relation to the all-party group on human trafficking. It runs extremely well under new leadership and I am content with it.

I believe, however, that the problem of highly contested elections reached a pinnacle of bad form in the recent election in March of this year for the all-party group on Russia. I was aware for several days beforehand that there was going to be an election. I was under the clear impression that the candidate from my party should be supported—a lot of messages went out trying to encourage people to turn up at that meeting and, equally, messages were sent out to members of another party to support an alternative candidate, who won the contest. One might just say that that is what happens in politics, but the conduct of that election would not pass muster if it was a public election. It would not be deemed remotely acceptable if it was a trade union ballot for industrial action. I turned up at the appropriate time in Committee Room 5, which seats 20 or 30 people at a pinch. There were 80 or 100 people in that room, packed shoulder to shoulder, and as many people outside in the corridor. The group’s officers, one from each party, had pre-printed ballot papers with the names of two candidates, although nominations were not sought until the meeting. As luck would have it, only two candidates were nominated, so the ballot papers were in order.

The two all-party group officers then started distributing the ballot papers to a sea of hands, pushing and shoving. There were no checks whatsoever on who took the papers—whether they were Members of either House or whether they took more than one paper. Indeed, I heard someone joking that they would have to go round with ballot papers again, although I saw no evidence of that. I heard people out in the corridors shouting, “Come here. It’s Room 5. Get in there!”, and asking Members to support their candidate.

I think that is a move in the wrong direction. I wrote to the Parliamentary Commissioner for Standards to say that I felt it would be possible to introduce some form of procedure in such cases to improve the transparency and democracy of the elections—I copied the letter to the Chair of the Standards Committee. There is a rule that permits any Member of either House to join any all-party group, and that is extremely important, because we do not want all-party groups to be closed shops for particular groups of people.

[Thomas Docherty]

I know that my hon. Friend is moving rapidly to a conclusion and will not want to spend more time on this issue than he has to, but is he aware that, as the Standards Committee states in its report, the rule on 20 members is not about who is or is not a member of an APPG? Every Member of the two Houses is a member of an APPG and has equal voting rights.

[Hugh Bayley]

I have a couple more things to say, but I will say them quickly.

I believe that we need a system that enables elections to take place from those who have played an active role in a group. That is why publishing a list of members of a group would be a good thing. It should be perfectly in order for someone to put their name on the list up to, say, 24 hours before the election takes place. But the idea that people can turn up to a meeting by the dozen, take ballot papers that are not numbered and not have their names recorded when voting allows a misuse of procedure that should not be permitted.

I would warmly welcome the Parliamentary Commissioner for Standards looking at this issue and, while ensuring that all-party groups remain open to all Members, allowing a better means of regulating such elections where there is a great deal of interest in them.

House of Commons Business

Thomas Docherty Excerpts

Thursday 8th May 2014 Commons Chamber

[Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to wind up this debate.

I pay tribute to members of the Joint Committee on Parliamentary Privilege and the Procedure Committee for their service in considering a range of important parliamentary matters. In particular, I pay tribute to the Chairman of the Procedure Committee, who manages, with good grace and good humour, a wide range of views across that Select Committee, many of which are held with passion. He has skilfully steered the Government towards a sensible conclusion. Today, we thank him for his service.

The Leader of the House came slightly unstuck when explaining the motion on the recommendations of the Joint Committee on Parliamentary Privilege. I think that it is fair to say that he attempted to skip over paragraph 225 of the report. I note that the former Deputy Leader of the House, the hon. Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr Heath), is in his place. Paragraph 225 said that the Government’s original thinking was, to put it charitably, unnecessary. There are less nice things that could be said about it. What the Joint Committee said in paragraphs 226 and 227 was that the solution, if it was not to be legislation, would be to have the debate that we are having today and the debate that was led by the noble Lord Brabazon in the other place.

I note that the Deputy Leader of the House was not in his place when the shadow Leader of the House was at the Dispatch Box. In case he has not been briefed on her speech, she pressed the Government on the so-called Hamilton law. The Joint Committee was absolutely clear that that should be repealed. We support that. I understand that there might be an opportunity to deal with that next Wednesday, time allowing, ironically. Will the Government confirm that they will support the amendment tabled by the hon. Member for Stone (Mr Cash), the right hon. and learned Member for North East Fife (Sir Menzies Campbell), the hon. Member for Harwich and North Essex (Mr Jenkin) and the Opposition, so that we can take that iniquitous piece of legislation off the statute book?

There was a range of excellent contributions on privilege. It is good to see the hon. Member for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper) joining the ranks of parliamentary experts on the Back Benches, if only temporarily. He explained better than most what privilege is. He was right that we should all do more to explain to the public and to those who watch our proceedings what privilege is, rather than rewriting it in a more modern fashion.

Speaking of a modern fashion, I turn to the hon. Member for North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg). I am sorry that he is temporarily not in his place. He has been described previously as a Victorian figure. It turns out that the observers who dubbed him that were out by two royal dynasties at least. He has been a driving force in the Procedure Committee.

The hon. Member for North East Somerset made some valid points about privilege, as did the hon. Member for Birmingham, Yardley (John Hemming), another survivor of the Procedure Committee, who provided us with a good run through the history of the links between petitioning and privilege. He made an incredibly interesting point about privilege and e-petitions. Will the Deputy Leader of the House answer the following straightforward question? Privilege obviously extends to e-petitions that have been considered by the Backbench Business Committee or debated in Westminster Hall. However, if the Parliament website hosts an e-petition that has not yet reached 100,000 e-signatures, do the Government believe that by hosting it, Parliament has extended privilege to the e-petition? If the Deputy Leader of the House does not have the answer to that important question to hand and is yet to be inspired, it would be helpful if he wrote to the hon. Member for Birmingham, Yardley and me, and placed the answer in the Library.

On Standing Order No. 33, the hon. Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope) queried the Opposition’s commitment to blocking the gagging attempt by the Government. Obviously, Hansard does not record who shouts, “Object!”, but my recollection is that one Member on each side of the House shouted in objection. I draw his attention to the names that appeared after that of the Chairman of the Procedure Committee on the counter-proposal. They included the names of the chair of the parliamentary Labour party, the shadow Leader of the House and all the Labour members of the Procedure Committee, including me. There is no doubt that we are not Johnny or Jane-come-latelies. We were clear from the start that this was an attempt by the Government to gag parliamentary democracy and speech. We welcome the Government’s reflection on the mood of Parliament.

It was right for Members to highlight the fact that Standing Order No. 33 assumes that the political make-up is that of a two-major-party system. We cannot predict what the future holds, but that means that it does not reflect the reality of this Parliament. We have, therefore, been clear that we do not support it.

On programming, the hon. Member for Forest of Dean acknowledged that he took the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Act 2011 through at “a pace”. I can only assume that he was thinking of the pace of Usain Bolt. I want to remind him gently of how little time was spent on Lords amendments. When the Government came back from the House of Lords with the proposal to create two seats for the Isle of Wight, but not to create two seats for Anglesey, less than an hour of debate was provided by the Government for the contributions from the two Front Benches and the hon. Members for Isle of Wight (Mr Turner) and for Ynys Môn (Albert Owen). Perhaps, on reflection, that was not the finest hour of the hon. Member for Forest of Dean in upholding parliamentary democracy.

My hon. Friend the Member for Bishop Auckland (Helen Goodman) is right that legislation is the sole responsibility of Parliament. I praise her for being the main driver of the programming inquiry. She showed tenacity and vigour in hounding the Government to make the process fairer. The report is testimony to her hard work.

Finally, on e-petitions, the hon. Member for Forest of Dean argued for a single system to ensure that Ministers are held to account. He said, rightly, that we should not create further confusion for the public. The Procedure Committee drew attention to the concern that the e-petitions system is misleading because it refers to an e-petition as an easy way to influence Government. I am not sure that many Members of Parliament think that being in Parliament is an easy way to influence Government. We therefore believe that further work needs to be done to ensure that the public understand.

My hon. Friend the Member for North East Derbyshire (Natascha Engel) estimates that 10 million people have signed petitions. That is an impressive number, but I wonder whether, as with some popular television shows, the number of individuals who have taken part is not quite the headline figure. [Interruption.] The Leader of the House corrects me and says that the figure refers to 10 million individual people and not the same people signing several petitions.

[Mr Lansley]

The figure is 11.8 million.

[Thomas Docherty]

I am happy to be corrected. However, my hon. Friend the Member for North East Derbyshire made an important point about gathering evidence from those people. Perhaps the Deputy Leader of the House will say in his response whether the Government are considering contacting those who have previously e-petitioned them to ask for their feedback on the matter.

My hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham North (Mr Allen) made some interesting points, to which I am sure the Procedure Committee will give due consideration. However, the amendment is premature, so I urge him not to press it today and to make a written and perhaps oral submission to the Committee in the near future.

It has been a very good debate and we have had a great history lesson as well as considering some key issues about parliamentary democracy. The Opposition support the motions.

[The Deputy Leader of the House of Commons (Tom Brake)]

Some interesting and substantive contributions have been made to the debate this afternoon by the hon. Member for Wallasey (Ms Eagle), the shadow Leader of the House, by my hon. Friend the. Member for Broxbourne (Mr Walker), the hon. Member for Nottingham North (Mr Allen), my hon. Friend the Member for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper), the hon. Member for North East Derbyshire (Natascha Engel), my hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg), the hon. Member for Bishop Auckland (Helen Goodman), my hon. Friends the Members for Birmingham, Yardley (John Hemming) and for South Norfolk (Mr Bacon) and, indeed, the hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife (Thomas Docherty), as well as interventions from several Members. I hope to comment on at least some of the more specific points.

I welcome the Opposition’s support for the process that has been outlined for e-petitions and the co-operation of the Procedure Committee and others in taking the matter forward with the Government. However, I regret that the hon. Member for Nottingham North appears reluctant to engage with his colleagues, including those who are members of the Government, on designing a system that meets the interests of both parties and, even more important, those of petitioners.

One of the main problems with having two petition systems, which the hon. Gentleman advocates, is the difficulty for petitioners in trying to identify which of the two they should use and, indeed, what happens when they request one thing through one route, which they also need to achieve through the other route. I will not engage with the detail of the amendment—that is for the Procedure Committee to consider in concert with others. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will feed his ideas into that Committee.

The Government support some aspects of the amendment and, indeed, some things can already be done. For example, the provision that

“any hon. Member should be able to propose an e-petition for debate”

can already happen. That also applies to the provision that,

“the Backbench Business Committee should allocate time on Mondays in Westminster Hall for debates arising from e-petitions”.

There are, therefore, matters on which we agree. However, there are others, particularly the suggestion of setting up a completely separate e-petition site, that the Government do not support. However, as I said, this is a joint exercise and joint system, and further discussion with colleagues is required before trying to identify the detail.

The intention is to enable the House to hold the Government to account in responding to petitions, and to give it greater control over how they are treated and debated here. Given the nature of our debate, I hope that the hon. Member for Nottingham North will not press the amendment. If the House agrees to the motion, the Leader of the House will be in a position to meet the Procedure Committee to begin discussions on the new system. We look forward to proposals emerging later in the year.

On programming, I am grateful for the support for the motion in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Broxbourne. I note the thoughtful remarks of my hon. Friend the Member for Forest of Dean, based on his experience, and the comments about the effect of the new deadline and how the Chair will apply it. The new deadline of three days for amendments on Report will apply from the start of the next Session, and we look forward to the Procedure Committee’s review before the end of the Parliament.

On Standing Order No. 33, if the House agrees to the Standing Order changes, they will be in force for the debate on the Gracious Speech at the start of the next Session. Members will doubtless wish to reflect on how well they work after that debate.

[Thomas Docherty]

My hon. Friend the shadow Leader of the House posed a question on programming, about whether the Government would consider an earlier deadline of an extra day so that the House has a chance to see the Government’s thinking on Government amendments.

[Tom Brake]

The difficulty with that is that it would effectively create two classes of Members—one required to provide more and another required to provide less notice. That presents problems.

I thought that the hon. Gentleman was going to intervene about the couple of other points that were raised while I was temporarily out of the Chamber. He will be pleased to know that I got inspiration even while not within these Chamber walls. On defamation, the shadow Leader of the House called on the Government to support an amendment to the Deregulation Bill to repeal section 13 of the Defamation Act 1996. The Government have previously made it clear that they support the repeal and will act when a legislative opportunity arises. I am pleased to say that one such opportunity will arise next week.

The shadow Deputy Leader of the House made a point about e-petitions and privilege. That is a matter that the Procedure Committee could consider. There may be implications depending on the decisions reached—for example, on whether a petitions Committee considers all petitions, potentially accepting them as evidence. Once the system is designed, clarity on that will be important.

We have had a focused and concise debate on these House issues, and I hope that we are now in a position to move forward.

Parliamentary Standards

Thomas Docherty Excerpts

Tuesday 8th April 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Lansley]

I wish that I could say that they are, but I cannot. The answer may well not be “None” and that such legacy cases remain. I do not know; new issues may be raised, but I hope that they are relatively few. Following the Legg inquiry and others, they ought to have been thoroughly considered and the public should have confidence that the issues that were brought out have been dealt with. I hope that that is the case, but I cannot say that there are no such cases. I think that might be over-optimistic.

[Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)]

Can the Leader of the House explain why the Prime Minister still believes in self-regulation of politicians when he has ended self-regulation of the press?

[Mr Lansley]

The Prime Minister believes in effective regulation. I hope that I have explained to the House that the issues relating to self-regulation are very straightforward. In the debate on 12 March 2012, my predecessor as Leader of the House and the shadow Leader of the House argued by analogy that we were creating something like the General Medical Council or the Bar Council by involving lay members to try to ensure that we did not have self-regulation in the way we had it in the past. We must bear in mind specific issues about the relationship between the regulatory system and the exercise of parliamentary privilege and, in particular, the question of how sanctions that were to be applied in this House can be applied by anybody other than the House itself.

Business of the House

Thomas Docherty Excerpts

Thursday 27th March 2014 Commons Chamber

[Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)]

Yesterday my hon. Friends the Members for Sedgefield (Phil Wilson) and for Houghton and Sunderland South (Bridget Phillipson) visited the Scottish Parliament to set out why people in the north-east are keen that the UK stays together. They proved to be just as popular up there as they are down here. Given that the vast majority of people in England, Wales and Northern Ireland want the UK to stay together, may we have a debate in Government time about why we are better together?

[Mr Lansley]

I am happy to agree with the hon. Gentleman that we are, as a Union, better together. It is in the interests of Scotland and it is in the interests of the people of England, Wales and Northern Ireland. Happily, we had an opportunity recently to debate Scotland’s place in the Union through the good offices of the Backbench Business Committee. I know that many Members across the House feel that it has become increasingly obvious, not least since the publication of the White Paper by the Scottish Government, that their numbers do not add up and that their arguments do not stack up. The arguments for the Union to stay together are increasingly compelling and will, I hope, be given increased exposure through this House to the people of Scotland.

Business of the House

Thomas Docherty Excerpts

Thursday 27th February 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Lansley]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that question. I will of course have that conversation with my hon. Friends at the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, because we always want to do whatever we possibly can to prevent such resources—conflict gold, conflict diamonds and the exploitation of mineral wealth—from feeding conflicts that are doing such immense harm to the people of those countries from which those resources come.

[Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)]

Recently I received an answer from the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills about the number of overseas territory students studying in the United Kingdom. The answer refers to “the Falklands (Malvinas).” Can we have a statement from the Government as to whether or not there is a change of policy towards Britain’s overseas territory?

[Mr Lansley]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that question—[Interruption.] The hon. Gentleman, I mean. I spend so much time talking to him that it just seems like he is an hon. Friend.

I hope the hon. Gentleman is aware there is no change in the Government’s position where this matter is concerned. It is the Falklands, it continues to be the Falklands and its constitutional status will remain the same.

Business of the House

Thomas Docherty Excerpts

Thursday 23rd January 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Lansley]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for raising this matter with me again. As he says, a meeting is due to take place tomorrow with local authorities and local enterprise partnerships to consider the issue. I can tell him—I will ask my colleagues to follow up on this with him and other interested Members—that we recognise the need to find solutions to the issues on the A303/A30/A358 corridor. We commit to identifying and funding solutions in the future and to ensure that we build on previous and recent work, including that done by Somerset county council and others, rather than starting from scratch.

[Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)]

Earlier this year, my local former Scottish National party MSP, Mr Bill Walker, was convicted of 23 counts of domestic abuse and one charge of breaking a frying pan over his stepdaughter’s head. He was sentenced to the maximum sentence available, which was only one year, so the Scottish Parliament did not have the power automatically to expel him. Will the Leader of the House ask the Cabinet Office to consider the outdated rule that someone must have a jail sentence of one year and one day before they can be disqualified from this place or any of the devolved Assemblies and Parliaments?

[Mr Lansley]

Of course, these are matters for me. As regards this House, I would want to proceed on the basis of an understanding of consensus and I will be glad to discuss the question with colleagues, the shadow Leader of the House and others. In this House, we have already seen—I hope that this would be reflected in other Parliaments—that when Members are convicted of serious offences, even if they have not necessarily been given a sentence of more than 12 months, they have either resigned from the House or action has been taken against them on a recommendation from the Standards Committee.