Tomlinson Report

Tessa Munt Excerpts

Tuesday 17th December 2013 Westminster Hall

[Guto Bebb]

That is a fair point about timing. Another of my constituents was told that his bank charges would be increased to a weekly fee of £4,000. The letter informing him of that arrived on 21 December, just before his business closed for Christmas, which I am sure was enjoyable because of that letter. There was nothing to be done until the new year, because the business was closed. There is an issue there. To go back to the hotel I was talking about, as a result of the lower valuation, the business can show on paper that its bank charges over the following six months were £250,000 higher than they had been in the previous six months.

[Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD)]

I applaud the hon. Gentleman’s work in this area, and it is a joy to work with him. I want to mention a similar case involving a constituent who had a long-term arrangement with a bank. His business, which owns housing, has been told by the bank that it wants to finish his loan on 31 March, so he is required to sell the housing on 1 April. How can that be fair?

[Guto Bebb]

That is an issue on which the bank would have to respond, because my view is that clearly it is not fair.

I have a fourth and final example of businesses finding themselves in difficulty due to decisions taken by the bank. A company that contacted me recently had net profit of £272,000 on turnover of £3.5 million in 2008, net profit of £281,000 on turnover of £4.4 million in 2009, and net profit of £268,000 on turnover of £3.9 million in 2010. Those are all healthy figures. The company employed about 40 members of staff. In late 2010, however, an agreed overdraft facility with the bank was withdrawn, because a loan agreement under the EFG—enterprise finance guarantee—system was declined. The company was therefore put into GRG support, and the group proceeded to disallow a payment of £14,000 in corporation tax, on which basis the company found itself in difficulties and ended up going into administration. The final set of management accounts for the nine months before the company went into administration showed a net profit of £190,000. The company would argue that its difficulties were caused by the bank refusing the corporation tax payment, even though the final accounts showed a profit.

Such businesses feel extremely hard done by as a result of the way that the GRG and RBS have behaved towards them. My evidence could be described as anecdotal—I am more than happy to accept that—but it is important to emphasise that the cases highlighted in the Tomlinson report are the tip of the iceberg; they are not representative of an issue created by Lawrence Tomlinson himself. I have seen these issues in my constituency, and other Members have seen them in theirs.

Once businesses are in the GRG, the concern is that its attitude and behaviour is less than helpful. RBS argues that the whole purpose of the group is to put businesses back into health, but it is difficult to see how a business allegedly subject to cash-flow problems is helped by having an additional £250,000 in fees in a six-month period. Time and again, I have seen the fees charged by the bank go up when businesses go into the GRG, and they apparently bear no relation to the amount of work done in support of the business.

So-called independent reviews are forced on businesses by the bank, whether through a valuation, accountancy work or solicitors. Professional fees are charged to the business, but the instructions come from the bank and, often, the reports go to the bank first. We have to be concerned about that. Furthermore, the businesses often have no say whatever in who the reviewers will be. There is a question about the conflict of interest faced by those professionals: if they are being paid by a business, but instructed by the bank, surely they are conflicted in their work.

The other thing that I have seen time and again is payments by suppliers not being prioritised. There is almost never a case in which a payment to suppliers would be allowed if that took the business beyond the terms of its overdraft or facilities, and yet I have never seen a case in which charges due to the GRG have not been taken because they will take the business over its overdraft limit. That is a fair point to make, because if a business can go over its agreed limit in order to pay the bank charges, why on earth will the bank not allow a payment to a supplier if that supplier is crucial to the continuation of the business in question?

I have already mentioned a constituent of mine struck with a £4,000 weekly fee for the continuation of his banking facilities. To return to him, after three months of negotiation, the GRG agreed that it would accept £2,000 per week. There was no explanation as to why the fee was initially £4,000, or why £2,000 was now acceptable. I get the impression that the reason why it was £4,000 to start was that the bank thought that it could get away with it; the fee was subsequently £2,000, because the business put up a fight—its accountants and solicitors argued the case, as did the MP.

--- Later in debate ---

[Guto Bebb]

I would be extremely wary of using the word fraud. In my view, there has undoubtedly been systematic bad behaviour and I could speak at some length about West Register, which is part of RBS, and the way in which assets have been taken from businesses by the GRG and West Register—there is a conflict there. However, even with the privilege afforded by being in the House, I would be careful about using the word fraud.

[Tessa Munt]

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that we could summarise the matter in this way? Customers have trusted their banks over so many years and that trust has been built up through generations. People still think that they should trust their banks, but there is now a complete imbalance in that relationship, as a practice has grown up in which highly commercially minded organisations are managing personal money and business money. People are now not qualified to understand what they are being offered by their so-called friends, the business or relationship manager and their bank.

[Guto Bebb]

Undoubtedly. That imbalance is something I have highlighted time and again in relation to the issue of interest rate swaps. I do not think it is reasonable to assume that we are talking about two equal parties when one is a banking organisation that has the ability to pull someone’s livelihood away from them at the stroke of a pen.

To conclude, the attention focused today on the GRG and RBS reflects the fact that RBS was bailed out by the taxpayer to such a great extent. With that taxpayer support comes added scrutiny. We should not take our eye off the behaviour of other banks and there are issues within those banks, but the key point is that the bank that we are talking about today is supported by the taxpayer and so has an obligation to justify its behaviour, over and above what is expected of other banks.

--- Later in debate ---

[Natascha Engel]

Absolutely, and I will conclude later by saying that that means we really have to look at the whole banking sector. The Banking Commission has done a good job of starting to expose some of these malpractices, but they are very worrying. The issue does not affect just RBS, and it needs to be looked at more widely.

What is really worrying is that RBS would, arguably, not exist if not for the fact that it was bailed out, and is 80% owned, by the taxpayer. However, some of the practices exposed by Tomlinson represent a double whammy for the taxpayer. I can cite examples of RBS using the GRG to take money out of bank accounts that businesses had set up expressly to pay Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs. The bank was, therefore, not just taking taxpayers’ money so that it could continue to exist, but taking money from accounts specifically set up to pay HMRC.

I started to get involved in this issue as a result of constituents coming to see me about interest rate swaps. One particularly big example involves a man who owns care homes, which are disproportionately affected by interest rate swaps. He was a solvent customer running a successful business, but RBS bullied him into taking on loans that included interest rate swaps. He wanted to refuse, but RBS bounced his cheques until he took the loans on. He is now involved with the GRG, even though it was expressly set up for severely distressed customers. He is not in severe distress now, but he soon will be, because the money he has to use to pay back the interest rate swaps RBS forced him to take on should be going into investing in his care home business. In addition, when RBS first forced him to take on the loan, the exit fee was £10,000. Only a few months later, it was £150,000. Given the amounts involved, we really need to start taking a serious look at what RBS is doing.

The hon. Member for Aberconwy was reluctant to use the word “fraud”, and I understand why, because it is a serious accusation. However, what I would like to hear about from the Minister is the reverse: what makes him confident that systematic fraudulent activity is not happening in RBS? I am focusing on RBS because that is what the Tomlinson report focused on, but also because RBS is more than 80% state owned. What makes him confident that the bank is not forcing people into the arms of the GRG, with the result that perfectly solvent businesses are not solvent any more, and asset stripping them at the same time? What makes him confident the bank is not taking huge fees from companies that bank with them, asset stripping them and making sure they can no longer exist properly?

[Tessa Munt]

On that point, the bank sold the business of one of my constituents, which was bought by another of the bank’s customers, who then found themselves in exactly the same situation as their predecessor. The bank therefore profited from not only the distressed sale, but what happened afterwards. Worse still, the sale happened as a result of interest rate swap mis-selling, but there is another interest rate swap agreement with the new company, so something that happened in 2005 happened again in 2007. Very often, these things are happening to the people who provide large numbers of jobs in our constituencies—the businesses that will provide the jobs and the growth.

[Natascha Engel]

Indeed. Those responsible are laughing all the way to the bank—ha, ha! The engineering of loan defaults allows a company to be put into the GRG. What we find, and what we see in the Tomlinson report, is that the lending is refinanced—companies are forced to refinance—and the bank gets far higher margins on the new loans. The bank also prioritises taking disproportionately high penalty fees from companies.

All of that is chipping away at small and medium-sized companies, which just want to get on with their business; they do not want to have to worry about what these massive organisations are doing. The banking sector is supposed to help people. Before the crash, banks were over-generous in flinging money at people; after the crash, they have become highly reluctant to lend even to perfectly good businesses. Where they do make business loans to companies, they are behaving, if not fraudulently, then at least appallingly badly, as I think we can all agree.

The all-party group’s investigation into interest rate swap mis-selling revealed not just the banks’ bullying tactics, but many cases that highlighted the imbalance between the size of the banks and the size of small and medium-sized enterprises, which the hon. Member for Wells (Tessa Munt) mentioned. We recently had a meeting with the Minister about that very issue. Can we really say that individuals have access to justice, when RBS—I repeat that it is mainly state owned—can call on some of the best legal minds in the country to support it against tiny businesses? I would say that those businesses do not have access to justice, and I would like the Minister to look at that.

To return to interest rate swap loans, which is where all this started, another problem is the foot dragging by the banks, which are looking into this, and which would say they are dotting the i’s and crossing the t’s; by the Financial Conduct Authority, which is also making sure it gets everything absolutely right; and by the Treasury, which is not putting enough pressure on the banks and the FCA to make sure this issue is dealt with swiftly. As we have seen, exit fees can go from £10,000 to £150,000 in only a few months, and interest rate swap mis-selling is costing businesses vast amounts, so every day matters, because all this money is going to the bank, not the businesses.

We cannot be confident—the Tomlinson report highlights this—that systematic fraud is not going on, perhaps in the wider banking sector, but certainly in RBS. I would really like the Minister, when he responds, to say what he is doing to make sure we can be confident that systematic fraud is not going on at RBS and more widely in the banking sector. I will conclude there, because I would like to give him as much time as possible to respond.