House of Lords Reform Bill
Stuart Bell Excerpts(12 years ago)
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Sir Stuart Bell (Middlesbrough) (Lab)
I am grateful for the opportunity to follow the hon. Member for Harwich and North Essex (Mr Jenkin). I will seek not to respond to what he said but, if possible, to build upon it.
Like the Leader of the House, I have sat through debates on Lords abolition and reform for many a year. My hon. Friend the Member for Wrexham (Ian Lucas) said yesterday that the Lords had far too many Members
“who are there simply because of who their fathers were”.—[Official Report, 9 July 2012; Vol. 548, c. 120.]
I remember the late Jack Jones going further in a party conference speech in 1977, saying that in those days three quarters of the Members of the House of Lords had inherited their position by birth, and that their ancestors were, by and large,
“cattle robbers, land thieves, and a few were court prostitutes.”
We are perhaps more subtle in our use of our language these days, as my hon. Friend showed.
The Leader of the House referred to a book that he had written in 2005 on Lords reform. I wrote a pamphlet in 1982 called “How to abolish the Lords”. I have to accept that the title was somewhat sexed-up by the Fabian Society, because it actually dealt with reform rather than abolition of the Lords. I have seen some of the suggested reforms come to pass, notably a Supreme Court of the judicature and the creation of a Ministry of Justice, all under a Labour Government.
I complained in my pamphlet that Labour had introduced only one reform, the Parliament Act 1949, but now I stand corrected. My right hon. Friend the Member for Tooting (Sadiq Khan) went through a number of reforms that Labour introduced during its term of office from 1997 onwards, and my hon. Friend the Member for Wallasey (Ms Eagle) built upon those points.
My hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) told those of us who proposed to oppose the Bill that the current House of Lords was unsustainable, a point reaffirmed by my hon. Friend the Member for Stockport (Ann Coffey). And so say all of us—no one here supports the current House of Lords. We are all for reform, and many reforms have been referred to in the debate. To my hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda and others who say that the Lords is unsustainable, I would quote Bernard Shaw, which Lord Kinnock has often quoted: “If your face is dirty you wash it, you don’t chop off your nose.” The Bill would hive off a part of our constitution. The Deputy Prime Minister spoke yesterday of the monarch giving up her prerogatives in relation to the Bill and reminded us that the constitution is the monarch, the Lords and the Commons. Yet a third of it is about to be hived off.
In what the hon. Member for Gainsborough (Mr Leigh) said was a good speech—it actually reads better than the delivery—the Deputy Prime Minister also talked about what I call the alarums and scarums that there have been in the past when the Lords has been about to be reformed, from those who said that there would be an impact on the primacy of the Commons. The actual words that that the Deputy Prime Minister used were “from disaster to apocalypse”. The one thing the Deputy Prime Minister did not say was that, when we talked of a primacy conflict with the Lords in the past—the conflict never happened—the Lords was not elected. That is the difference. The proposals will mean an elected House of Lords, and that conflict is therefore inevitable. It is obvious.
I pray in aid the Liberal Democrats. Lord Ashdown said that an elected upper House would not challenge the supremacy of the Commons, but it would challenge its “absolute supremacy”. I can advise him that the only difference between “supremacy” and “absolute supremacy” is the adjective. He also spoke of checks and balances. He was supported by Lord McNally, a Justice Minister, who declared that an elected second Chamber would have the right to say no to the Commons.
I pray in aid further the hon. Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale (Tim Farron), who declared that Members elected to the Lords by proportional representation would have greater legitimacy than those elected to the Commons under first past the post. I wrote to him yesterday to invite him to correct that statement if it was inaccurate. I have not heard from him.
My hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda picked up the suggestion of a Joint Committee that would be a concordat between the two Houses to resolve the question of the conventions. That can be achieved only if the House of Lords delaying powers in the Parliament Acts, on which the Government rely, can be reduced from 13 months to six months.
I join my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford South (Mike Gapes), who said that he has never voted against the Whip in 20 years. I have never voted against the Whip in 29 years, but I will do so tonight. I will do it on principle, and because I do not believe in anything in the Bill. The Bill is in purgatory and limbo, and it will not survive in its present form.
Sir Malcolm Jack KCB
Stuart Bell Excerpts(13 years ago)
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Sir Stuart Bell (Middlesbrough) (Lab)
I am grateful for the opportunity to follow the right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith), who was a member of the House of Commons Commission for 17 years. I did not get anywhere near his record. I served only 10 years on the Commission.
It is a pleasure to catch the Speaker’s eye because this is a parliamentary occasion, as well as a memorable occasion. It is memorable because Sir Malcolm Jack has served 44 years in the House and by my reckoning he has served through seven Prime Ministers, one of them, Harold Wilson, being a retread. As was touched on by the Leader of the House, Sir Malcolm also served as Clerk to the Agriculture Committee—wellingtons and all—for eight years. If anything shows assiduity, devotion to duty and attachment to the House, it is serving that Committee for such a lengthy period. He moved on to become Clerk of Supply and Clerk of Standing Committees. He also served the Joint Committee on House of Lords Reform from 2002 to 2003. If he believes in déjà vu, he has only to close his eyes, open them again and see that House of Lords abolition or reform, however one wants to describe it, is back on the agenda.
Sir Malcolm has managed to combine his duties in the House with being a philosopher, a scholar and a writer, whose books had not only to be written but to be researched. I surmise that the research was as arduous as the writing. One of his works which will be worth looking at is the saga, “Corruption and Progress: the eighteenth-century debate”. It should be read again by all the cognoscenti in our present era. They may find that, if I may quote French, plus ça change, plus ça reste le même: the more it changes, the more it stays the same. Many of those in the news at present might have a good look at that. Sir Malcolm would understand more than anyone that progress and change are not the same.
On reading the various publications of Sir Malcolm, I came across a book entitled “The Turkish Embassy Letters of Lady Mary Wortley Montagu”. My ears pricked up and, I went chasing down to the Library. I thought journalists from the tabloid newspapers might have got there before me, but I am happy to say that they did not. The book is a very interesting account of what went on at the end of the 1600s and into the 1700s and is well worth the read.
That book mentions Sir Malcolm’s vocation as an independent scholar. His book on Lisbon published in 2007 is certainly also worth a read for those who love Portugal, as he does, and its beautiful capital city. I note, as did the Leader of the House, that in “Who’s Who” one of Sir Malcolm’s recreations is listed as “escaping southwards”. I imagine there are many in the fourth estate who might look to him for advice on how they might make an early escape southwards.
Forty-four years of service. Can one understand that? Sir Malcolm was in the House under the Speakership of Horace Maybray King, who was in the Chair when I first came to the House in the 1950s. Sir Malcolm sat on the House of Commons Commission for almost five years. The right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed referred to the fact that Sir Malcolm moved from Clerk of the House to become its first chief executive. He understood that the Commission is an intrinsic part of the workings of Parliament under your chairmanship, Mr Speaker. Its work is, for the most part, as the right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed will understand, unsung and unnoticed, but none the less invaluable.
As the Leader of the House said, Sir Malcolm saw the need for the changes recommended by Sir Kevin Tebbit and he brought them about. His work might have been unnoticed until the famous expenses scandal. As a member of the Commission he became a focal point for us all. He gave us his advice wisely and discreetly. He saw the House through turbulent times and as the Leader of the House said, and as my right hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) graciously recalled, Sir Malcolm played a major part in steering the House away from losing its privileges under the Parliamentary Standards Bill. With Sir Malcolm’s help, the Leader of the House and I hijacked the Bill and made it a better Bill in the interests of Parliament. So he used that time of crisis as a time of opportunity.
Sir Malcolm was also accounting officer with overall responsibility for the House’s finances, resource accounting and internal controls. All these had a great impact on this sovereign Parliament for a sovereign nation.
In the letter that Sir Malcolm wrote to the Speaker, which was mentioned by the shadow Leader of the House, he stated:
“Unwarranted and unfounded criticism from whatever quarter should not deflect Members from their duties which will necessarily ruffle and disturb the peace of consensus.”
Sir Malcolm was one of those unsung Officers serving the House of Commons Commission who was instrumental in assisting the House to make a much-needed transition.
While talking about transition, I hope that you, Mr Speaker, will not mind my saying that Sir Malcolm had to lead the transition from one Speaker to another mid-Session. I can testify from my own experience and observation to the friendship and camaraderie he extended to you, Sir, and the advice he offered on so many new areas, which I am sure you appreciated and valued. That is an important and significant point that ought to be made. The Leader of the House referred to the 24th edition of “Erskine May”. Although it is to be published tomorrow, a copy is already available in the Library and has been read many times by many Members in the short time it has been there.
I will end my remarks with a quotation from the famous poet Andrew Marvell, though it might be out of context:
“He nothing common did or mean
Upon that memorable scene”.
We should make it “this memorable scene”. Sir Malcolm retires from the House with his honours thick upon him, and deservedly so. I salute him, as does the House and Parliament, and as should the nation.
Oral Answers to Questions
Stuart Bell Excerpts(13 years, 11 months ago)
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Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD)
1. What representations the House of Commons Commission has received from new hon. Members on Parliamentary Information and Communications Technology’s policy that ICT equipment is allocated only to the permanent office of an hon. Member.
Duncan Hames
It is a very serious matter when Members of the House are denied the tools to provide an efficient and effective service to their constituents, at home in their constituencies. Will the hon. Gentleman please consider removing that obstacle to Members, recognising that those such as me who did not rush into taking out office leases saved the taxpayer money and should be entitled to the IT provision available to other Members?
Sir Stuart Bell
I sympathise with the hon. Gentleman. If there are special circumstances in any case PICT will be prepared to consider an alternative approach. Under its current approach, each and every Member ought to have a permanent office, either in Westminster or their constituency, before they order equipment. That ensures that the equipment ordered is suitable for the space being occupied, and it avoids the need to relocate often heavy equipment and to set it up twice.
Mr Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con)
4. If the House of Commons Commission will bring forward proposals to reduce parliamentary recording unit charges for small independent broadcasters.
Sir Stuart Bell (Middlesbrough)
We have already taken action. In anticipating new licensing arrangements due to come into effect in August 2011, we have decided to stop charging copyright licence fees to broadcasters for the material that we hold.
Sir Stuart Bell
I am aware that the hon. Gentleman has had discussions with the parliamentary recording unit. He has been very diligent, and I congratulate him on that. As he knows, the principles and level of charges were originally set out in 1993 by what was then the Select Committee on Broadcasting and have thereafter been reviewed at official level. The technical duplication charges, to which the hon. Gentleman did not refer but which I know he understands, will be reviewed during the business planning for the new broadcasting arrangements that will be introduced in August 2011.
Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)
6. How much it costs to print early-day motions in 2009-10.
Sir Stuart Bell (Middlesbrough)
The cost of publishing early-day motions, including printing, staff time and technical support, was approximately £1 million in the financial year 2009-10. Printing alone accounts for some £776,000.
Mr Hollobone
Taxpayers will be shocked by the figures that the hon. Gentleman has just read out to the House. Should this not offer scope for huge cost savings and, hopefully, be another nail in the coffin of the wretched EDM system?
Sir Stuart Bell
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his remarks, and he will be happy to know that from the start of this parliamentary Session older EDMs have not been reprinted weekly, saving 2.5 million sheets of paper and up to £300,000 in printing costs per year.
Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)
I confess that I have been here for only 18 years but I have not yet seen an EDM debated. Would it not be a good idea for us to pick four or five EDMs for debate in the course of a year and therefore, through the Backbench Business Committee or the Leader of the House, vent those issues and make the system better value for money?
Sir Stuart Bell
I am grateful to my right hon. Friend, but I cannot add to the points made by the Deputy Leader of the House and the hon. Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis). As my right hon. Friend will no doubt know, this is a matter for the Procedure Committee or the Backbench Business Committee.
Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con)
Would it not be a good way to save money to publish EDMs just on the internet and not print them on the Order Paper?
Sir Stuart Bell
That is an interesting point. In 2007 the Procedure Committee said there should be no electronic tabling of EDMs without stronger authentication than that in place for questions.
Sir Stuart Bell
My hon. Friend asks why. The Procedure Committee said there should not be such electronic tabling unless
“significantly stronger authentication than is currently required for parliamentary questions can be guaranteed”.
The Procedure Committee went on to say that it cannot therefore
“recommend the introduction of e-tabling for EDMs.”
I am happy to answer the hon. Gentleman’s question, and my hon. Friend’s question from a sedentary position.
Hugh Bayley (York Central) (Lab)
7. Whether the House of Commons Commission plans to seek the views of hon. Members on ways of reducing the running costs of the House.
Sir Stuart Bell
The Commission will seek the view of Members in the normal way through the Finance and Services Committee and the Administration Committee. I am pleased to see on today’s Order Paper the submission of names to the will of the House for both those Committees. The Commission will also welcome the submission of views from individual Members, which should be sent to the secretary of the Commission.
Hugh Bayley
I understand the need for the House to cut its costs, but I am worried about the size of the cut in respect of Select Committee travel, because it will undermine the ability of Parliament to scrutinise the Government. Will the Commission seek savings in other areas which do not have a direct impact on how Parliament does its job? For example, at a time of widespread public concern about public sector bonuses, will the Commission examine what impact the bonus scheme for senior staff of this House has had on their output and productivity?
Sir Stuart Bell
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his question. On the cuts in the Select Committee budgets, I am afraid that we are not able in this House to distinguish between one set of expenditure and another. The cuts announced recently are for this year only and are in response to the general financial stringency being applied to the public sector in the current year. Following scrutiny by the Finance and Services Committee last December, the Commission agreed to a reduction of 9% over three years and will consider the position for future years in the autumn. My hon. Friend’s point about bonuses will be included in that review.
Oral Answers to Questions
Stuart Bell Excerpts(14 years ago)
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Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)
2. If he will bring forward proposals to introduce low-cost LED lighting across the House of Commons part of the parliamentary estate.
Sir Stuart Bell (Middlesbrough)
Several trials of LED technology have been undertaken in the House of Commons, and LED lighting has been installed in the upper Committee corridor, the Commons Library, the Lower Waiting Hall, the New Palace Yard turnstiles and other places. Following those trials, we have included further installations of LED lamps in Parliament’s low-energy lighting programme, such as at 1 Parliament Street and Derby Gate stairwells.
Mr Hollobone
I welcome the progress made by the House authorities. Given the fact that LED lighting uses just 5% of the electricity used by normal bulbs, hardly ever needs to be replaced, and contains no mercury, so it can be recycled very healthily, have they given any consideration to lighting Big Ben with LED technology?
Sir Stuart Bell
That is an intriguing question so early in the parliamentary Session, and one that the Commission would be happy to look into. As the hon. Gentleman knows, incandescent lighting on the parliamentary estate has been gradually replaced with lower energy lighting over the past five years. The majority of these replacements have occurred during routine lamp changes. Due to the size and complexity of the estate, detailed records of light bulbs are not kept and the proportion of low-energy lamps is not known. However, on the point that the hon. Gentleman makes, we keep developments in lighting technology under review and we will adopt low-energy solutions as they become available.