DWP Estate

Stewart Malcolm McDonald Excerpts

Wednesday 18th January 2017 Westminster Hall

[Stewart Malcolm McDonald (Glasgow South) (SNP)]

It is always a pleasure to see you in the Chair, Ms Dorries. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West (Margaret Ferrier) on securing the second but, I am confident, not the last Westminster Hall debate on the jobcentre estate, with a focus on Glasgow.

On 28 October 1977, that great chronicler of local news the Barnet Press published an article following a visit to a local jobcentre by the then Member of Parliament for Finchley. It was of course the late Mrs Thatcher. At the time, the jobcentre was serving 1,066 people in the constituency, and even Mrs Thatcher remarked at that point how overrun and busy it seemed to be. We have heard from the hon. Member for Glasgow East (Natalie McGarry) that one of her jobcentres will be expected to serve 3,000 people—three times the number that shocked even the late Mrs Thatcher. It is often said that the present Government are positively wet, by comparison with her ideology, but they have gone where even she would not.

It was excellent to hear from the hon. Member for North Swindon (Justin Tomlinson) and from my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow North East (Anne McLaughlin) about all the excellent things that there can be in jobcentres to support vulnerable people—particularly, as the hon. Gentleman noted, those with mental health challenges. It is a wonderful idea, which is why we should not close Glasgow jobcentres, or reduce their number from 16 to eight—halving it, when there is supposed to be a 20% reduction elsewhere in the country.

I and my colleagues have submitted a range of written questions to Ministers in the Department for Work and Pensions, and I want to run through some of the answers. I am sure that if a jobcentre in your constituency was closing, Ms Dorries, you would, as would any Member, look for some basic, elementary information about how the Government had reached the conclusion that it was a good idea. You would want to know how many disabled people used the jobcentre. That was what I asked about both Castlemilk and Langside jobcentres in my constituency, which the Minister wants closed. The answer was that the Department does not have that information and it would be too expensive to find out. I asked how many people from both those jobcentres had successfully found part-time work: the Department does not have that information, and to find out would incur a disproportionate cost. I asked the same question about full-time work and got the exact same answer.

The Government have a plan that is so upside down and ill-thought-out that it is starting to make the Trump transition look positively orderly. There is no equality impact assessment, so the Minister cannot tell Members of Parliament at the end of the debate that she is confident her Department will not break her public sector equality obligations under the Equality Act 2010. That is because it has not bothered to work it out. You will not believe it, Ms Dorries, but, as my hon. Friend the Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West mentioned, the Department works with travel distances and refers to bus services that Google Maps has told it about. In some cases those bus services and routes no longer exist. The result, I promise, will be that people will be late to the jobcentre and will be sanctioned. That is the decision that the Government have taken.

There are two jobcentres in my constituency that the Government want to close. Castlemilk, a community in my constituency, is geographically the largest in Glasgow, and it used to be bigger than Perth. There are almost 20,000 people in just that area, and the Minister will force them to take an eight-mile round trip. The Langside jobcentre serves the second most densely populated council ward in Scotland. It is across the road from a college. I cannot think of a better place for a jobcentre than the second most densely populated ward, across the road from a college. The Minister needs to think again. The Government picked the fight, and until we get the right answer and the closures are scrapped, we shall keep fighting.

--- Later in debate ---

[Margaret Greenwood (Wirral West) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Dorries. This is yet another debate on this important matter. I congratulate the hon. Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West (Margaret Ferrier) on bringing the debate to the House and on the real clarity and focus that she showed in the course of her remarks. I commend everyone who has taken part. We have had particularly interesting contributions. The hon. Lady referred to the comments made by PCS condemning the closures. The hon. Member for Glasgow South West (Chris Stephens) talked about the “moral outrage” of the proposals. That view was shared by many people in the Chamber today. Numerous other important contributions have been made.

The debate is on the future of the DWP estate, but the focus has clearly been on Glasgow, which is facing the closure of half of its jobcentres. In today’s debate and in preceding debates, Members have rightly focused on the huge range of issues that impact on claimants, including increased journey times; the complexity of the journeys and the impact that will have, particularly for those with mobility problems, those with young children and older people who might find it more difficult to travel on public transport; the cost of those journeys, which can be considerable for people on benefits; the increased likelihood of claimants being late as a result of public transport failure; and the increased risk of claimants being sanctioned, with the attendant risk that that will push people further into poverty.

From one single error, we can see such a process having devastating effects. That is most clearly exemplified in Ken Loach’s film, “I, Daniel Blake”, which tells one such story with immense power. The film has picked up five BAFTA nominations this year. I feel sure that that is not just because it is such a powerful film, but because the story that it tells is so highly relevant for today. [Interruption.] I am not quite sure what the hon. Member for North Swindon (Justin Tomlinson) is saying from a sedentary position. It is such a powerful film.

[Stewart Malcolm McDonald]

I wish to help the hon. Lady. Perhaps the comments from the hon. Member for North Swindon were that the director, Ken Loach, has publicly backed our campaign to save the Glasgow jobcentres.

[Margaret Greenwood]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that contribution. The comments from the hon. Member for North Swindon were totally relevant, then.

It is immensely important that the DWP estate is managed with due respect for the impact that any changes might have on claimants, their families, their communities and those who work there. For those who work there, the concerns are about job losses, the down- grading of posts and increased case loads. Will the Government comment on how they will manage the estate for the future? What are their plans for future technology, the changing roles of DWP staff and the introduction of in-work conditionality, which will require that those in work demonstrate that they are searching for more work? How will that will impact on the people in Glasgow who are having their jobcentres removed?

The changes are important for the people of Glasgow, but they are also important for the rest of the country, as has been clearly stated. I am short of time.

--- Later in debate ---

[Caroline Nokes]

I am sorry; I am not going to give way.

After 20 years, the private finance initiative contract that covers many DWP offices is nearing an end—it expires on 31 March next year—which provides us with the opportunity to review which offices we will need in the future and to save the taxpayer money, while ensuring all our claimants are able to access the support they need.

There was a question earlier about planning permission. Under a PFI contract, we are not the leaseholder. Planning issues are entirely separate to the contract that we hold on the buildings. In every case, we are seeking to minimise disruption, moving existing jobcentres into nearby sites and co-locating wherever possible. The UK labour market is in the strongest position it has been in for years, but we cannot predict the future. The hon. Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West was right to mention Brexit. That is one of the reasons that we continue to ensure that we retain sufficient flexibility and spare capacity in the system. Our aim is to reduce floor space, not the workforce, who are so important in supporting claimants back into work. Indeed, there are now 11,000 work coaches across the country, and we are planning to hire 3,000 more staff.

When a jobcentre closes, the Department will consider what outreach services we can expand and what facilities may be suitable to provide those services. Outreach is about ensuring services are flexible and accessible for the people who need them. For claimants who are unable to attend a jobcentre owing to their vulnerability or who have difficulty completing the process required by the Department to claim a particular benefit, we have robust procedures in place. DWP Visiting undertakes home visits or occasionally visits to an alternative agreed address if that is more appropriate. Travel expenses are refundable under certain circumstances, including where claimants are required to attend a jobcentre more frequently than every two weeks. Under some conditions claimants are able to maintain their claim by post, including where they have caring responsibilities for a child and it is not possible to make arrangements for short-term childcare. The hon. Member for Glasgow North West (Carol Monaghan) mentioned catchment areas. Claimants can also choose to attend an alternative jobcentre to the one allocated to them if it is more convenient, easier and less costly to travel to.

A number of Members mentioned the equality analysis, which is part of the detailed planning for service reconfiguration. That will include the feedback from the public consultation process, which is still ongoing. We are committed to complying with our public sector equality duty, and we take account of the feedback from our public consultations. The equality analysis will help to establish any impacts that additional travel will have on customers and inform decisions about additional provision, such as outreach services.

[Stewart Malcolm McDonald]

Will the Minister give way on that point?

[Caroline Nokes]

I am sorry, I will not.

Equality analysis involves us considering the likely or actual effects of proposals on people with protected characteristics as part of our decision-making processes. Employment is, of course, the joint responsibility of the UK and Scottish Governments. As hon. Members mentioned today, my hon. Friend the Minister for Employment is travelling to Scotland, where he is meeting members of the Scottish Government. We welcome the chance to work with them. Indeed, DWP officials have been working closely with them on this process.

We are building contingency into the system, building on lessons learned in 2008. More flexible arrangements and new contracts are being brought forward. Last night, we debated DWP policies in the main Chamber. It was a wide-ranging debate, which included the question of Glasgow jobcentres. My hon. Friend the Member for South Ribble (Seema Kennedy) stated, and I cannot disagree with her,

“There is too much clinging on to bricks and mortar when the real questions should be what works and what will get more people into work.”—[Official Report, 17 January 2017; Vol. 619, c. 888.]

Hon. Members would do well to reflect on that. It is about the service we deliver—[Interruption.]