Carers

Steve McCabe Excerpts

Thursday 20th June 2013 Commons Chamber

[Paul Burstow]

The hon. Lady is absolutely right to say public sector employers should be—and could be, and must be—exemplars in this. Indeed, it would be great if the NHS itself was an exemplar in this area, yet as I will come on to say, I think in too many ways institutionally the NHS is rather biased against carers, and certainly blind to their needs in too many cases.

There is an economic reason why we need to do more in this area. It is estimated that as many as 50% of those involved in personal and household services operate in the grey economy. This represents a further missed opportunity in terms of job creation and lost revenue to the Exchequer. Looking across the channel to France where work began almost a decade ago to address a number of these issues, market development for homecare services has led to the creation of an additional 2 million jobs, with the industry becoming one of the biggest growth sectors in that economy.

There are clearly lessons to be learnt in how to support and strengthen carers’ ability to care in a way that supports the wider UK economy. I hope the Minister will be able to tell us when the “task and finish group” recommendations will be published.

Moving on, one of the most practical ways to support carers is to provide them with breaks from caring. That can help reduce the stress and the often constant demands that caring involves, and allow them to have the time to improve their own physical and mental health.

In recognition of the value of carers breaks, the Government committed in the 2010 spending review to spend £400 million over four years on breaks for carers living in England. As the Minister at the time, I was convinced of the importance of giving carers a break and knew that it would make a huge difference to their lives. I therefore regret that the evidence suggests that that has not happened. Monitoring by the Carers Trust for the year 2011-12 found that action on the ground had often been slow or non-existent. Despite clear reporting requirements, in many areas it was impossible to track how money had been spent, and in a small minority of cases nothing at all had been spent on services for carers. Some fantastic work has been done, but progress has remained appallingly slow. To be fair, this problem has dogged not just the coalition Government, but successive Governments.

I ask this question: what is the common factor? The common factor is the institution we are using to direct the money, which is the NHS. It does not see carers as significantly important contributors to it, and therefore it does not see this money as worth spending on them. That has to change.

[Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab)]

I acknowledge the right hon. Gentleman’s efforts when in government, and I agree that this issue has dogged successive Governments. I wonder whether we have reached the stage where we have to give some clear statutory rights to carers in respect of respite care, because whatever organisation has the budget, it does not seem able to recognise that this is an essential need if a person is going to continue to be a carer. Would the right hon. Gentleman entertain that approach?

[Paul Burstow]

To be honest, in this area the NHS is probably drinking in the last-chance saloon. If we do not see progress, legislation may be necessary. There is another way in which the money could, and should in future, be earmarked for this purpose. There have been transfers from the NHS to local authorities for the support of social care more generally, and in some local authority areas that has happened with the carers break money as well; it has been transferred. It has not happened everywhere, however, and I think it should now become mandatory, so this money gets spent for the purpose the Government said in their spending review it was for. That is a perfectly reasonable thing to expect, and the Government need to reflect on three years of this money not getting where it needed to be, after a number of years of that under the last Government as well.

A survey by Carers UK found that in one in five cases where a person who was receiving care from family or friends was admitted to hospital as an emergency, that could have been prevented if the carer had received more respite care and support. This makes big differences financially to the NHS. It uses resources better, and that is why it beggars belief that the NHS has not yet made sufficient progress, with its partners in local government, to improve access to breaks for carers.

Under the health service reforms, with clinical commissioning groups taking the lead, there have been some examples of improvement, such as in Huntingdon, where there is an interesting carers breaks project led by GPs. Partnered with Crossroads Care, they identify carers by meeting them socially, and prescribe breaks. Carers who are met in that way tell me they have for the first time had the experience of having raised their needs as carers and seen that translated into tangible action that made a difference for them. We need to see more of that. It is a vital lifeline.

As has already been said, there are huge issues to do with identification of carers. Research by Macmillan has found that while over 70% of carers came into contact with GPs, doctors and nursing staff, only 11% of all carers reported that they had been identified as a carer by a health professional. We as a Government talk about making every contact count, and we should do so when it comes to identifying carers. I hope the Minister can look afresh at what we can do to challenge NHS England to fulfil its obligations. I hope the National Audit Office will take a look at how successive Governments have attempted to engage the NHS with the carers agenda.

I want to finish by talking briefly about the Care Bill. It is no small thing that this is the first ever Government Bill to provide for carers’ rights. Until now, the cause of carers has been advanced by private Members’ Bills. Let me place on the record my appreciation for the work of the late Malcolm Wicks, whose Carers (Recognition and Services) Act 1995 was a landmark in the rights of carers and a fitting legacy for such a thoughtful and generous Member of this House. For the first time, the Care Bill enshrines in legislation carers’ rights to an assessment of their needs and, importantly, establishes a duty to meet those needs which are eligible. It also establishes clearly the need to consult and involve carers in decisions about the care of those they care for.

Although the Care Bill is hugely welcome, inevitably there are gaps and unintended consequences that must be addressed if all carers are to get the support they are entitled to. Following the Government’s welcome announcement last week of their intention to amend the Children and Families Bill to ensure that the rights of young carers are as strong as those proposed for adult carers, we must see the necessary changes to it and the Care Bill, and ensure that the rights of parent carers of disabled children, which have so far been neglected in both Bills, are not allowed to fall through the cracks.

I look forward to colleagues’ contributions and hearing them draw on their experience of engaging with carers in their constituencies. I know from talking and listening to carers, and from tweeting about carers’ issues, the genuine and palpable outrage they feel because all too often they are overlooked and under-supported. We need to change that. The Government are making good progress, but more still needs to be done.

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[Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab)]

I congratulate the Members who helped to secure today’s debate.

During the debate on the Queen’s Speech, I referred to the experiences of two carers in my constituency. One was Lynne Hanslow, who cares for her 96-year-old father, keeping him out of residential care. All that she asks for is a fortnight’s respite break each year, but this year, despite having given the council four months’ notice, she was denied that break and was abused by a local authority employee when she complained about her treatment. Not surprisingly, Ms Hanslow ended up having to go to her GP. A carer had been made ill by neglect and worry.

I have spoken to the council’s director of adult services, but so far Ms Hanslow has not received the full apology that she deserves, along with a promise that that will not happen again. I believe that the council’s chief executive should make the apology, thus sending the signal that he means to take the needs of carers seriously and will not stand for his staff treating them with contempt. Ms Hanslow’s experience is one of the reasons for my conclusion that statutory respite care should become a legal, enforceable right for carers. We have tried the other approaches for too long.

I also mentioned the case of Margaret McGarry. She cares for her frail elderly mother, who suffers from dementia. Her direct payments have been suspended, apparently in retaliation for her having had the temerity to go to a solicitor because she felt that the local authority was being unreasonable in terms of the flawed level of support that it was prepared to provide. There should be a much simpler independent review process for carers like Margaret McGarry who are treated in such an appalling way. The current system seems almost to be weighted in favour of officials and bureaucrats, at the expense of carers. I wonder whether the time has come for local authorities to create carers champions to look out for carers’ interests. I have come to the conclusion that local authority complaints procedures in much of the NHS these days are not about problem solving at all. They are about process. They are almost a game to create an illusion of accountability. I think we need a champion who will listen to carers’ concerns.

[Paul Burstow]

I think it is worse than that. The balance of power is entirely wrong. It is too much on the side of the local authority to which the individual is complaining. That is why we need advocacy, but it is also why we need to look at the case made in the Joint Committee report on the draft Care and Support Bill for the need for a tribunal service, to start to address these matters in a more impartial way, detached from the local authority. How can a local authority investigate itself?

[Steve McCabe]

I certainly agree with that, although I would be reluctant for us to have a complex system that the carer has more difficulty accessing. I take on board the right hon. Gentleman’s point, however.

In arguing for a champion, I am looking for someone like a councillor, with sufficient clout to intervene and right wrongs and cut through the madness and bureaucracy that all too often ends up punishing, rather than protecting, the carer. That does not mean we should not also have further review and appeal processes, but I want us to have something simple that people can make use of and that will make a difference.

A champion might also do more to make sure the voices of ordinary carers are heard. I am thinking about the hidden carers that so many Members have mentioned—the people who are too busy caring to have time to attend the consultation sessions, which are organised to suit the convenience and working hours of the NHS and local authority officials, so these people are never heard.

[Norman Lamb]

I totally agree with what the hon. Gentleman says about giving a voice to carers, who sometimes are treated appallingly, not only by providers of care, but by some of the statutory services and local authorities. With providers, we have introduced, through the NHS Choices website, the ability for people, in TripAdvisor style, to speak out and have their say about poor standards of care, and we may need to do something similar for local authorities, because there should be no hiding place when people are let down in that way.

[Steve McCabe]

I welcome what the Minister says. I am able to identify these people in my constituency, and I do not understand why it is so hard for the caring organisations to identify them.

I wonder why we do not say that at the point when an individual qualifies for attendance allowance the local authority should be notified and instructed to commence consultations with the person and their carer, with a view to establishing a long-term care plan and review strategy. That could reduce the occurrence of crisis care episodes, and the authority could simultaneously start to develop a support plan for the carer, so the needs of the carer are at the centre of the care plan.

[Paul Burstow]

The hon. Gentleman’s point about attendance allowance is interesting and important. He may know that this week the Strategic Society Centre think-tank published an interesting report setting out how this area might be reformed in a way that provides just what he has described: a front door into the social care system. Does he share my surprise that we have a system that does not talk to social care at least in part because it is entirely paper-based? It is not electronic, and perhaps the Department for Work and Pensions needs to consider putting it on that basis, so the information can be shared more freely.

[Steve McCabe]

I think I probably would agree with that, although the right hon. Gentleman must recognise that the Government are moving increasingly towards systems that do not allow for face-to-face exchange. I understand that that is one of the major disputes about what is happening in the DWP. I think it would make classic sense, however. All of us hear enough about joined-up government, and this is one area where a bit of joined-up government could save money and provide a much better service.

[Barbara Keeley]

I was at an event the other day—as was the shadow Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for Leicester West (Liz Kendall)—at which somebody from the DWP was talking about this issue. They said they had tried a project to get their data to talk to the local authority’s data, but had given up because the local authorities all used different forms. That seemed to me to be appalling. The Minister might like to think about whether there could be guidance for local authorities. If local authority forms are all that is stopping this vital sharing of data, it is about time we dealt with that.

[Steve McCabe]

One of the penalties of having been a Member of this House for quite a long time is that we get fed up with hearing such excuses. We know fine well they are nonsense; if we want it to happen, we can make it happen. That is the approach we should take.

My hon. Friend the Member for Corby (Andy Sawford) talked about older carers and carers who have been caring for older relatives, and I want to touch on one particular aspect of that. What will happen under the Government’s deferred payment equity release plans to surviving spouses who are carers, or elderly children caring for even older parents—it is not uncommon these days for a 70-year-old to be the carer for somebody who is 95 or 96, for instance? What rights will they have? In such situations, when the person who is being cared for enters residential care, what will happen to a carer whose name is not on the deeds of the house, although it may be their family home and they may well have lived there since marriage, or even childhood?

We must ensure that these carers do not end up homeless, destitute individuals with no pot of money to support them when they end up needing care themselves. I am not sure that the deferred payment scheme as currently structured takes account of the risk for those carers, and it would be the cruellest of rewards if, after a lifetime of care, we left them in this predicament.

[Norman Lamb]

At present, when someone goes into a care home and they have to sell the home to pay for care, the position of the carer could be very precarious, but the arrangements for the right to defer payment potentially provide greater stability for the carer. The hon. Gentleman raises an important point, however, and I will be happy to write to him directly about it.

[Steve McCabe]

I am grateful to hear that the Minister will look at the issue. I acknowledge that the current system is far from perfect, but interest-related deferred payments could mean more of the pot being consumed, and therefore less for the remaining carer.

Health and Social Care

Steve McCabe Excerpts

Monday 13th May 2013 Commons Chamber

[Andy Burnham]

That is what happens when a market is set up in the NHS, pitting one hospital against another in open competition. That is what is beginning to take hold in the NHS, where the Government waste money on consultants and all the other things that come from bidding for contracts. That is a direct effect of the legislation they pushed through. This reorganisation and the budget cuts I mentioned a few moments ago are providing a toxic mix. This is why for 32 weeks running, the NHS in England has missed the Government’s own lowered A and E target for major units. It really is time that the Health Secretary got a grip on the issue. We hear that last week he was trying to hatch a panic plan to deal with the A and E crisis. That is the reality of what was going on behind this threadbare Queen’s Speech: the Health Secretary was trying to cobble together a plan to deal with the A and E problems, weeks after we had first raised the issue in the House.

We hear of an e-mail leaked by an NHS finance officer which said:

“The SoS would like to announce tomorrow that £300m-400m is being invested to solve the A&E problem. We have spent most of the day trying to hold him off doing this.”

The Health Secretary seems to have forgotten that his powers to intervene were given away by his predecessor. He no longer has the power to mandate the NHS to do what he wants; the NHS can now “hold him off”. I am afraid that he looks weak. He has no response to what is happening to A and E departments. And where is the “£300 to £400 million” plan? It has not materialised. That is proof that when the Government surrendered their powers of control over the NHS, the Health Secretary surrendered his ability to do anything about the problems that we now face.

It is just as bad when it comes to staffing. We hear that nurses’ posts continue to be lost. Nearly 5,000 have been lost since the Government came to power, and according to the findings of a survey published yesterday, nurses fear that further tragedies could happen as a result of staff losses. That should set alarm bells ringing throughout the Department of Health. The Care Quality Commission has said that one in 10 hospitals in England does not have adequate staffing levels. The Health Secretary nods. I am glad that he accepts that, but, again, what is he going to do about it?

I welcome the fact that the Care Bill will contain measures relating to the Francis report, and I will work with the Health Secretary on that, but let us get to the crux of the issue of safe staffing levels, because that is the most urgent problem facing the NHS. The Health Secretary nods again. Let me make him an offer. If he introduces a benchmark—if he specifies minimum staff to patient ratios—we will support him, and the measure will go straight through the House. I shall wait for him to respond to that offer, and to ensure that the recommendations of the Francis report are properly implemented.

I give a cautious welcome to some of the Health Secretary’s measures to deal with health tourism, but let me issue two caveats. First, it is important not to overstate the nature of the problem, and secondly, it is essential for health practitioners not to be turned into immigration officers. In March, when asked how much health tourism was costing the NHS, the Health Secretary said:

“I don’t want to speculate… but… we have heard… it’s £200 million.”

On the same day, the Prime Minister’s spokesman said he believed that the figure was more like £20 million. Perhaps the Health Secretary could account for the difference—or did he just add a zero?

[Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab)]

Would it not be helpful if the Health Secretary could tell us exactly how much he thinks is being lost and what it will cost to try to recover the money? At present the only figure that he has is the one on the invoices, rather than one relating to the money that is actually recovered.

[Andy Burnham]

We must wait to see what the Government produce, but we need to be sure that they are attacking the real problem rather than playing politics with an issue and creating the impression that all the A and E problems are caused by immigration. If that is their real intention, they will have no support from the Opposition.

--- Later in debate ---

[Steve McCabe]

If the coalition survives longer than the hon. Gentleman suggests, does he think that next time round it might be an idea for the Government to have a debate and then produce a Queen’s Speech, rather than producing a Queen’s Speech and then having a debate about what should not be in it?

[Mr Leigh]

That is an interesting argument. I have appended my name to the important amendment to the Queen’s Speech, and we should have a serious debate on the issue. This is not Conservative Members of Parliament obsessing about Europe; this is a real issue for people. It is no longer a dry as dust issue.

In Boston, a seat with a 12,000 Conservative majority, UKIP won nearly every council seat two weeks ago. Unlike my hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Mr Cash), the people there are not particularly worried about all the details of European legislation, but they are worried about immigration. I echo what my hon. Friend the Member for Broxbourne (Mr Walker) said in his very measured speech: people in Lincolnshire are not closet racists. They welcome Polish, Lithuanian and Latvian people, but they want their public services to be supported, when, on the coast of Lincolnshire, public services are overwhelmed. Since 2004, 1.1 million have arrived in this country from eastern Europe, and we have to address that issue.

--- Later in debate ---

[Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to follow the thoughtful speech of the hon. Member for Mid Derbyshire (Pauline Latham).

I congratulate the Government on their fine display of unity on the Queen’s Speech. In all my years in the Whips Office, I cannot recall seeing anything quite like it. In the early days of the Government, the ambition was simple: wipe out the deficit in a single Parliament, set debt on a downward path and restore health to the economy. Hon. Members were to judge success by how the credit ratings agencies maintained the triple A rating. Simple! The Government now claim that their ambition is to cut the deficit by a third, but almost everyone else believes it is more likely to be cut by only a quarter. That is our lot for the rest of the Parliament. Debt is rising, not falling, and triple A credit ratings are but a distant memory.

After the costs in administrative chaos caused by the top-down reorganisation of the health service, which the Prime Minister promised would not happen, the Government are turning their hand to social care. They are right to do so, at least in the sense that social care is a time bomb that desperately needs tackling. My most recent survey of constituents in Selly Oak shows that 73% of them consider care to be an issue of extreme importance, and only 42% think that the quality of care received by someone close to them is satisfactory.

People are struggling—people such as Mrs Hanslow, who cares for her 96-year-old father. She asks only for the odd break, and in the past she has arranged that by phoning a social worker. When she tried that this February, she discovered that the social worker had left. The office said that somebody would phone her back, but nobody did. She phoned again and was told that she needed to make a fresh application; apparently, files and arrangements leave with the social workers these days.

After several abortive attempts, Mrs Hanslow spoke to a nice lady called Wendy, who said that she would sort the situation out. Then a Mrs Collins rang saying that she was arranging for a social worker to come. But guess what? Mrs Hanslow waited in all day and no one came. Frustrated, she rang again and spoke to a Jackie, who could find no record of her application or complaint but said that someone would ring her back. No one rang, so Mrs Hanslow phoned again. This time, people at the office were not so nice. Mrs Hanslow was told that nothing had been reported because the social worker was out of the office.

[Pauline Latham]

What the hon. Gentleman is describing is the fault of the local authority, not the Government. The local authority is responsible for social workers, not the Government.

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[Steve McCabe]

Bad practice is a problem everywhere, and everyone has to take responsibility for it—that is my point.

When Mrs Hanslow got upset and said she would have to cancel her break and lose her deposit, she was told, “That’s up to you.” She did not get her respite care. She is now under the care of the GP, and if she cannot carry on, we will need to find a bed for her dad. Perhaps he will become another bed blocker; there are so many in Birmingham that the brand new Queen Elizabeth hospital cannot cope and emergency wards in the old hospital, scheduled for closure, are reopening.

What about my constituent Margaret McGarry? She has cared for her elderly mother, who now has 9% kidney function and has had a dementia score of six, for about 10 years; if it was not for Ms McGarry’s love and care, her mum would probably be dead. In 2004, her mum received direct payments from Birmingham, which enabled Ms McGarry to hold down her job as well as look after her. The family then moved to Redbridge, but Redbridge decided that Ms McGarry’s mum was Birmingham’s responsibility. Ms McGarry pointed out that she was the carer and that her mum lived with her, but that was not the case as far as Redbridge was concerned. Eventually, the council offered the equivalent of six hours of support, as opposed to the 34 that Birmingham had provided.

Last year, after a hospital experience that almost killed her mum, the family moved back to Birmingham. Ms McGarry’s mum now needs almost constant care. That means another assessment, which takes weeks and weeks. As soon as they moved, Redbridge council terminated the payments. Birmingham’s assessment commenced in August. In November, it recommended fewer care hours than Redbridge and by December still had not paid a penny. As the old lady’s health deteriorates, so does the level of support.

I have had a letter from the man in charge assuring me that the case is complex. One of the complexities seems to be that Ms McGarry has exercised her rights and engaged a solicitor. Apparently, that is a very naughty thing to do if a person is caring for an elderly relative because Ms McGarry has now been advised that all direct payments are being stopped. That is the reality of social care in this country today, and it is against such nonsense that we are asked to have faith that the Government are going to give people more rights. We are asked to accept that £150 million and promises from the Secretary of State will fix the problem. It may have escaped the Government’s notice, but the most recent round of cuts took a further £800 million out of services for the elderly and disabled, on top of last year’s cuts. When will it dawn on the public relations boys in No. 10 that it is pointless pretending they are giving people more rights when they are cutting services to the bone?

Let us examine what the Government are actually doing. They say they are setting a cap at £75,000—£72,000 in the first instance—raising the savings limit to £123,000 and giving a guarantee that no one will have to sell their home. Of course, £75,000 covers only the costs of care, not what is called hotel costs, such as food and accommodation. The cap is not, as my hon. Friend the Member for Worsley and Eccles South (Barbara Keeley) pointed out, the amount the individual spends, but the amount a local authority can buy for £75,000. When we add the real costs of residential care, rather than the local authority rate, to the hotel charges, it is much more likely that an individual will spend at least double that amount before the cap kicks in.

The £123,000 savings threshold means that anyone who has capital, including an empty home, will have to pay all their care costs until the cap is reached. That only leaves the guarantee that no one will be forced to sell their home—except that since October 2001 no one has been forced to sell their home. The previous Government introduced the deferred payments scheme and, in 2009, advised local authorities that if they failed to recognise the scheme, the courts would almost certainly rule their actions illegal. No interest is charged on deferred payment arrangements while a person is in receipt of care, or for 56 days after their death. The Government intend to make the existing arrangements compulsory, but also apply interest charges from the moment the scheme is activated. While questions remain about who will qualify, it is estimated that most of the additional subsidy will go to the richest 40% of people in the care system. That is what is wrong with the Government. The Government are built on falsehoods: falsehoods about the unity and purpose of the coalition; denial about the real state of the economy; and policies that are more about UKIP than the UK. We need genuine reform. That is what a decent Government would put in the Queen’s Speech.

Oral Answers to Questions

Steve McCabe Excerpts

Tuesday 16th April 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hunt]

I wholeheartedly agree with my right hon. Friend. I was in the accident and emergency unit at Watford hospital last week when a lady with advanced dementia was admitted. She had bruises all over her face after having had a fall. The shocking reality was that that A and E department knew nothing about that lady. It did not know her medical history, and it did not know whether that was her normal condition. There was no proper joined-up link between the social care system and the NHS. Tackling that issue is probably the single biggest long-term and strategic challenge that we have to address in the NHS.

[Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab)]

Was Professor Malcolm Grant, the chairman of NHS England, talking about dementia sufferers when he said today that the NHS would have to charge for particular treatments? If not, will the Secretary of State specifically rule that out?

[Mr Hunt]

Professor Malcolm Grant did not say that. What he actually said was that if the NHS considered charging, he would oppose it. I agree with him; I would oppose it, too.

Social Care Funding

Steve McCabe Excerpts

Monday 11th February 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hunt]

I thank my hon. Friend for his question. The shadow Health Secretary complained this morning that we have not adopted the precise cap that Andrew Dilnot said he would have liked. That would have cost an extra £2.4 billion a year by 2020, on top of the plans that we have announced. It is up to the Opposition to tell us how they would find that money if that is what they want to happen.

[Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab)]

Is it not likely that the decline in domiciliary services will accelerate to the point at which people are forced to enter residential care? Has the Health Secretary factored those rising costs into his calculations?

Oral Answers to Questions

Steve McCabe Excerpts

Tuesday 15th January 2013 Commons Chamber

[Dr Poulter]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right to point out the excellent work done at his local unit, which receives funding from the NHS and from charitable sources. We are investing more money into training midwives, and there are now more midwives working in the NHS. It is for local commissioners to capitalise on that, and to invest in support for neonatal units.

[Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab)]

With births per midwife rising, maternity services being cut and newly qualified midwives unable to find a job, what on earth happened to the famous boast of the Prime Minister that he would recruit 3,000 more midwives and make their lives a lot easier?

[Dr Poulter]

With respect, perhaps the hon. Gentleman should listen to my answers before he pre-prepares a statement. I just outlined clearly that in the past two years there have already been 800 more midwives working in the NHS, and there are record numbers in training thanks to the investment being made by the Government. We are delivering on making sure that we are investing in maternity and investing in high-quality care for women. We are proud to be doing that—something the previous Government failed to do.

Regional Pay (NHS)

Steve McCabe Excerpts

Wednesday 7th November 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hunt]

May I gently remind the hon. Lady that she stood for election on a manifesto that did not include abolishing the 2003 Act or the Health Act 2006, which gave foundation trusts the freedom to set their own pay and conditions? [Interruption.] I ask Labour Members to let me answer the question. May I also remind her that the previous Government, whom she supported, introduced “Agenda for Change”, which does not pay the same amount throughout the country for the same work? It actually includes a lot of flexibility for regional pay.

[Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab)]

So far, the Secretary of State is describing what he sees as the benefits of flexibility. I put it to him that if a number of regions adopt the south-west’s approach, he will eventually be confronted by the fact, as the Secretary of State, that the poorest parts of this country will not be able to attract the doctors they need. What will he do then?

[Mr Hunt]

All we are doing is supporting what the hon. Gentleman’s Government did, which was to introduce flexibilities for the people who run foundation trusts to set pay and conditions in order to get the best health care in their areas, including in his constituency, in that of the right hon. Member for Leigh and in mine. The previous Labour Government did not just support that; they legislated to require it. They introduced foundation trusts—

Winterbourne View

Steve McCabe Excerpts

Tuesday 30th October 2012 Commons Chamber

[Norman Lamb]

I am sure that inspectors can speak to patients, and that they routinely do so, but I will check on the important point the hon. Gentleman makes. We mentioned earlier the views of those with learning disabilities and their families, but it is essential that the regulator hears directly from them of their potential concerns.

[Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab)]

I am not sure that the Minister has made his position clear. Is it his intention to end the appalling practice whereby vulnerable people can be transported to establishments hundreds of miles away from their home town at the whim of the authorities and without the knowledge and consent of their families?

[Norman Lamb]

I have tried to be clear on my views on what has been happening—it has been going on for years. As I have said, the fact that someone is sent 200 miles away from home creates the conditions in which abuse is more likely than if they are in their own community. I want that to end—I want to be as clear as I can that that is a national scandal that needs to be brought to an end.

Oral Answers to Questions

Steve McCabe Excerpts

Tuesday 23rd October 2012 Commons Chamber

[Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab)]

Further to the answer that the Minister of State gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Worsley and Eccles South (Barbara Keeley), why do the Government not make it a criminal offence for those who recruit staff on the cheap not to bother checking employees’ employment records, qualifications or criminal records? Surely they are putting people’s lives at risk.

[Norman Lamb]

I absolutely share the hon. Gentleman’s concern. I am looking at the whole issue very closely. It seems to me that the fundamental point is to ensure that the people in charge at the corporate level are held to account for failures of care. We are very serious about ensuring that that happens.

Health and Social Care Bill

Steve McCabe Excerpts

Tuesday 20th March 2012 Commons Chamber

[Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab)]

rose—

[Mr Anderson]

rose—

NHS Risk Register

Steve McCabe Excerpts

Wednesday 22nd February 2012 Commons Chamber

[Valerie Vaz]

I thank the Minister for making his sedentary intervention.

Obviously, I rise to speak in favour of the motion and I humbly request the Secretary of State for Health to publish the risk register, as recommended by the Information Commissioner. I thank my right hon. Friends the Members for Wentworth and Dearne (John Healey) and for Leigh (Andy Burnham) for taking up this issue. As most people will know from their e-mail inbox and their postbag, and from letters that have gone into various newspapers, the professionals are behind us, as are the public.

I have an image of the Cabinet sitting round the table singing the classic Irving Berlin song, “Anything you can do, I can do better”, as each Secretary of State tries to please the Prime Minister by showing how far they can go beyond what was agreed in the manifesto and the coalition agreement. The Secretary of State for Health, who obviously does not want to hear a good argument, is not so much nudging the NHS—to use his favourite phrase—but giving the NHS a great big shove off the end of the cliff; this is more about the chaos theory than the nudging theory. There is a fundamental flaw at the heart of his reasons not to publish the risk register, which is that it contains the information that the public need to see whether the decision that he has reached in the Bill is without risk to the NHS. The Information Commissioner has deemed this to be in the public interest but the Secretary of State chooses to hide it from the public. The public have a right to know that when a decision is taken in their name the relevant considerations have been taken into account. If this reorganisation goes wrong, as it is doing—the good people in the NHS who are working hard are leaving now—could that possibly amount to misfeasance in public office?

In the Health Committee, we have seen what can be done with co-operation. We visited Torbay and saw public sector leadership at its best. I have absolutely no idea who the staff there voted for—nor do I particularly care—but I know that they saw a system for elderly people that was not working, and they worked hard, not thinking about their pensions or asking for overtime, to devise a system in which there was one point of contact for elderly people. Under the system, the risk is shared, 50% with the NHS and 50% with the local authority. They devised a system with consistency of leadership and long-standing good relations across the system. A care package that might take eight months to deliver elsewhere can now be delivered in two hours. By spending £l million on community care, they saved the hospital £3 million. A seven-step referral is now down to two steps. All of that is at risk, however. The NHS and local authorities could learn from that good practice and evolve in that way.

Some people say that, as a result of the Bill, the people around the table will be the same; they will just have different titles. People need to know that the risk is not just about getting rid of managers. The Secretary of State might say that he is reducing the number of managers by making them redundant, but the NHS still needs some managers—so step forward McKinsey and KPMG to help the GPs who do not have, or might not want, management skills. Members of the public need to know the risk associated with the loss of expertise that has stayed in the public sector for the common good, but which will now be lost by the dismantling of structures.

[Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab)]

My hon. Friend says that there is a danger that we will end up with the same people sitting around the table. Does she agree that the Government should publish the number of people who have been made redundant and received redundancy payments from PCTs, only to be re-engaged to work for clinical commissioning groups? What has that cost the NHS so far?

[Valerie Vaz]

I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend. I have asked about this in a written question, and I have not had an answer. This is fiscal incompetence.

The public need to know that this is not GP fundholding revisited. They also need to know that, when they visit their GP, as my constituent Inayat did, the decision whether to prescribe antibiotics will be made on the basis of clinical need, not as a result of financial pressures. When Mrs Bennett needs to go to the Manor hospital, she needs to know that she will be next on the list, and that she will not be giving her place to someone who is able to pay, as a result of the cap being raised to 49%.

People need to know that when Nick Black wrote in The Lancet that productivity in the NHS had risen in the past 10 years, he ended his article by saying that he had no conflicts of interest. He was right, and the Secretary of State is wrong. The Secretary of State might not have taken into account relevant considerations when he declared that productivity had fallen. The public need to know of the risk that the Bill will be taking in replacing lines of management. At the moment, we have the Secretary of State, the Department of Health, strategic health authorities and PCTs. We are going to have the Department of Health, the NHS Commissioning Board, clustered SHAs, 50 commissioning support groups, 300-ish clinical commissioning groups, clinical senates, Health Watch—and, I could add, a partridge in a pear tree.

Thanks to the House of Commons Library and the Public Bill Office, I can tell the House that the Bill has had 1,736 amendments: 474 in Committee, 184 on recommittal and 1,078 on Report. The Bill Committee divided 100 times—the first time that that has ever happened. This is a bad piece of legislation. The public need to know the risks to the taxpayer. They need to know that costs have been saved, and not just shifted to another level or outsourced.

We are in this place to serve the people of this country. History does not judge kindly those who do not act in the public interest, and people will not forgive those who save face by continuing with the Bill only for reasons of vanity. The risk register associated with the Health and Social Care Bill should be published. The Information Commissioner has decided that that is in the public interest. The people want it and should have it. I support the motion.

--- Later in debate ---

[Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab)]

It really does not matter what vote the Government Whips are able to secure tonight, because the truth is that the Government have lost the argument. The Secretary of State has squandered whatever political capital the Prime Minister was able to accumulate on the NHS and lost the trust and confidence of the public and professions with this Bill. There cannot be a single person in the country who does not understand that there is secret information, pertinent to the passage of the Bill, that he is determined to withhold from Parliament and the public. That is the position we are in.

The vote does not matter, but I would not like to be a Government Back Bencher having to go back and explain the matter to my constituents. I certainly would not like to be one of the Lib-Dem Members having to do so, because whatever the arguments and posturing here in the Chamber today, they will not cut any ice with a public who know that the facts are being withheld and feel they are being conned over a measure that they were promised would never be introduced by this Secretary of State.

I do not say this with any malice, but I think that it is too late to restore the Secretary of State’s reputation. Even at this late stage he could agree to release the information, but more importantly he should pause again and, this time, really listen to what people are saying about the NHS. He is probably not keen to take advice from me, but I have consulted my constituents in Selly Oak quite extensively on the Bill, and it is important that he knows that 76% of the people whom I consulted said that it is the wrong priority at the wrong time. Their concerns are about faster diagnosis and treatment and shorter waiting times.

The Secretary of State cited waiting times earlier in his speech, and he will know that the 18-week waiting time in south Birmingham is rising steadily. In fact, I think it has gone up—

[Anna Soubry]

You think?

[Steve McCabe]

Off the top of my head. I can check the figure, because the Secretary of State wants to be accurate, but I think it is 36%—since he became Secretary of State. It is going up, and he must know that, because he was quite happy to cite other figures earlier.

The money should be spent on reducing waiting times; it should not be withheld by the SHAs to cover the cost of the reorganisation. The Minister of State says that that is not happening, but his own operating framework shows perfectly well that that is exactly what the money is being withheld for. It is spelt out in black and white in his own documents, and that is what is wrong at the moment.

The public feel that waiting times are rising, they have difficulty accessing GPs and they are worried about the confusion surrounding the measure. As my hon. Friend the Member for Mitcham and Morden (Siobhain McDonagh) said earlier, in some parts of the country it is already destabilising the NHS, but what we have today is the Government dismissing all those arguments while hiding behind a cloak, saying, “Everything’s going to be okay, but we’re not going to tell you the facts of the matter.” It is disgraceful, and the Secretary of State knows perfectly well that during the years that he spent in opposition he would never have tolerated such behaviour. His behaviour since taking office has been to undermine the NHS and to waste every bit of political capital that the Tory party accumulated during its years in opposition.

That is what is fundamentally wrong with the measure. It does not matter how many times people try to deal with the minutiae of the risk register; the reality is that the report is there and the information is there. There is only one person hiding it, and he is sitting opposite me on the Government Front Bench at the moment. That is what the public know. This is no longer an argument confined to what happens in this Chamber; it has gone way beyond that. It has got to the stage where the Secretary of State’s credibility is on the line, and I am afraid that it has been lost.

[Mr Speaker]

We are grateful to the hon. Gentleman. The winding-up speeches will begin at 6.38 pm.