Employment Rights Bill (Eighteenth sitting)

Steve Darling Excerpts

Committee stage
Thursday 9th January 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Greg Smith (Mid Buckinghamshire) (Con)]

It is good to see you in the Chair, Sir Christopher. Clauses 76 and 77 are relatively straightforward. Quite rightly, as is standard in similar legislative provisions, they state explicitly that both the strategy, every three years or so, and the annual report, every year, should be laid before Parliament. That is welcome: it is standard and is in no way under question.

If the Minister is agreeable to it, I would like him to confirm that Members of both Houses will be given the chance to question and debate the documents—certainly the strategy, which is an important document on a longer timescale—rather than their just being laid before the House. Although it would be unusual to specify that in the Bill, will he confirm that when the first strategy is published under clause 76 or the first annual report is published under clause 77, his expectation is that Ministers will be willing to make an oral statement so that the House can properly question it and scrutinise the Secretary of State, or whichever Minister draws the short straw and presents it to the House?

When documents are simply laid before the House, sometimes these things get overlooked. Select Committees sometimes have too much work in their programme to squeeze in a scrutiny session around the publication of such documents; sometimes the House of Commons sees only a written statement. It would be sufficient if the Minister confirmed that his desire is to see these documents not simply laid before Parliament, but actively debated, at least through the means of an oral statement.

[Steve Darling (Torbay) (LD)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Christopher. On behalf of my residents in Torbay, whether they are employers or workers, a strategy to know how the Government are looking to drive this agenda forward can only be welcomed.

[Justin Madders]

I think there is broad support for these clauses. The shadow Minister requests that I commit to an oral statement, but he will be aware that I am not in control of the business of the House. I hope that we would want to ensure that all Members have the opportunity to ask questions, but he will know that a number of other mechanisms—sorry, I am sounding a bit like the Leader of the House now—are available to Members to ensure that particular matters are debated.

--- Later in debate ---

[Greg Smith]

I broadly accept the Minister’s argument on bringing legislation into the 21st century, and it would be foolish not to acknowledge changes in the way that documents are stored or the fact that certain businesses operate online in a way that they simply did not when the existing legislation was passed. We do not seek to object to that element.

When expanding any power of any enforcement officer under the state, however, there is always a concern to best ensure that the checks and balances that any reasonable person would expect are there. The Bill will undoubtedly become an Act, so I gently ask the Minister how, when these powers are delegated by the current or any future Secretary of State to the enforcement body, the practical application of the use of those powers—particularly those that are a step into the unknown regarding online and electronic document storage—will be assessed and reviewed to check that the right delegations are in place, and that there is no overstretch or unnecessary steps to demand documents that may not be required.

We can all imagine a situation in which, because documents are held in electronic form, some enforcement officers might desire to be over-zealous and ask for far more than they need. I do not see a safeguard to ensure that enforcement officers ask only for things that they categorically and absolutely need within the function of the duties that this or any future Secretary of State delegates to them.

[Steve Darling]

It is important that we hear from the Minister about getting the balance right and supporting people’s rights, while not being too invasive to businesses. I look forward to hearing from him.

[Justin Madders]

Fair points were made by the Opposition spokespeople. Clearly, the Secretary of State is ultimately responsible to Parliament for the operation of the fair work agency and the use of powers by enforcement officers. I expect that will ensure that there is oversight at least on a parliamentary level. On an operational level, there will also be an opportunity for the advisory body to be involved.

On the modernisation of the rules, I understand that that applies only to the employment agency standards inspectorate, because the other bodies already have those powers. It is not a dramatic extension of the existing powers that are already in place.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 78, as amended, accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 79

Power to enter business premises in order to obtain documents, etc

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[Greg Smith]

His Majesty’s loyal Opposition do not object to the thrust of the clauses, particularly the provision about not retaining a physical document if taking a photograph or making a copy of it is practicable. I do not want anyone to misinterpret what I am saying, but although I recognise the need for enforcement agencies to be able to acquire the evidence and documents they need to conclude their right and proper investigations, the question arises, how long may evidence be held by the enforcement agency, or indeed any part of the British state, particularly in cases in which a physical document has not been retained but a photograph or a copy has been taken of it? Clause 81 is pretty explicit about the retention of physical documents, but it is less clear on how long a copy or a photograph may be held by any arm of the state. I look for reassurance from the Minister that the rules will apply to copies as much as to the original documents seized, taken or willingly given to the enforcement officers.

[Steve Darling]

I broadly welcome the way forward proposed in these clauses.

[Justin Madders]

I hope that I can put the shadow Minister’s mind at rest. My interpretation of the provisions of clause 81(2) are that they would apply equally to the provisions of clause 81(3) and that copies would be retained only for as long as necessary for the purposes set out in subsection (2). I will write to him if my understanding is incorrect, but I believe that the legislation is fairly clear on that point.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 80 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 81 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 82

Powers of enforcement officers under Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

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[Greg Smith]

I heard what the Minister said, and these are indeed relatively minor amendments that do make sense. Amendment 92 enables an enforcement officer entering a premises with a warrant under clause 83 to exercise the same powers to inspect, examine and seize documents as would be exercisable if the officer had entered the premises in reliance on the power conferred by clause 79. Amendments 93 and 95 largely build on that. While we accept the spirit and the letter of the amendments, which all make sense, I cannot pass up yet another opportunity to wonder why they were not in the Bill in the first place.

[Steve Darling]

I welcome the further clarity that the amendments offer.

Amendment 92 agreed to.

Amendments made: 93, in clause 83, page 85, line 11, after “any” insert “other”.

This amendment is consequential on amendment 92.

Amendment 94, in clause 83, page 85, line 15, leave out subsection (5).

This amendment is consequential on NS1.

Amendment 95, in clause 83, page 85, line 24, leave out from beginning to “may” in line 26.

This amendment is consequential on amendment 92.

Amendment 96, in clause 83, page 86, line 3, at end insert—

“(10) For further provision about warrants under this section, see section (Warrants) and Schedule (Warrants under Part 5: further provision).”—(Justin Madders.)

This amendment is consequential on NC9 and NS1

Question proposed, That the clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill.

[Justin Madders]

The clause is an essential measure that empowers enforcement officers to enter premises, including by force if necessary, when investigating unlicensed gang- masters activity under the Gangmasters (Licensing) Act 2004. It carries over the existing powers of the Gangmasters and Labour Abuse Authority and brings them together with the other enforcement powers of the fair work agency. It enables officers to gather necessary evidence when there is a reason to suspect illegal labour practices and is a vital step in protecting vulnerable workers from exploitation. It ensures that enforcement officers can conduct thorough investigations to uphold fair labour practices without delay. As at present, enforcement officers will need a warrant to exercise this power.

The clause supports a co-ordinated approach to labour enforcement by integrating the functions of the Gangmasters and Labour Abuse Authority into the fair work agency. We are amending the clause as discussed and introducing a new schedule so that the process of applying for and executing a warrant mirrors that in clause 79, to create a single system of enforcement across the employment rights landscape. I commend the clause to the Committee.

--- Later in debate ---

[Greg Smith]

I will focus most of my comments on clause 87, on the means of giving notice under the provisions of clause 84. I think we can all fully understand what clause 87(1) means by

“(a) delivering it to the person,

(b) leaving it at the person’s proper address,

(c) sending it by post to the person at that address”.

However, there is some potential for confusion—and a need for greater clarity, be that in advice, notes after the Bill becomes an Act or perhaps more formally during the passage of the Bill—regarding what precisely we mean by “electronic means”. Subsection (8) states:

“‘electronic address’ means any number or address used for the purposes of sending or receiving documents or information by electronic means”.

As Members of this House, we all sometimes have constituents who use all manner of extra means to try to get messages through to us, particularly with the growth of different social media channels and direct messaging. Most reasonable people still define “electronic means” as what is now probably the old-hat electronic means: published email addresses and perhaps text messages via mobile phones, WhatsApp and similar messaging platforms. Some businesses have websites that make it quite difficult to contact the business by means other than a website contact form, or perhaps their only published contact details are via social media channels.

Without wanting to get too detailed and specific, I think it would be welcome if the Minister could—this afternoon would be great, but certainly at some point before the Bill becomes an Act—double-check with the Department and his legal advisers whether things such as Instagram direct messages would count as “electronic means” under the clause. It is very easy—I am guilty; I have done it with some messages—to miss a message that does not come via the expected channels, such as published email addresses, postal addresses or whatever it might be. With social media channels—I have certainly found this with Instagram—it is sometimes very easy for legitimate constituent messages to find their way into junk folders, which are far less straightforward than our inboxes.

If the notices may be issued via those slightly less obvious electronic channels, can we have clarity on that? What safeguards will be put in place to get around the chance of a notice going into some sort of electronic trap—a junk folder, spam folder or whatever it might be—so that the enforcement body can have confidence that the notice it has served has reached the intended recipient? I suppose that these days the same point would apply to the postal method of delivering a notice—we all know that postal deliveries are not as frequent as they used to be—so if such notices are not going to be sent via some form of signed-for or special delivery, how can there be confidence that any notice served under clause 87 has reached the business owner or the director against whom enforcement action is being considered? Clarity is key here.

[Steve Darling]

I welcome the points made by the shadow Minister, and wait eagerly to hear from the Minister.

[Justin Madders]

I am grateful for the general support. The shadow Minister has raised some fair questions and articulated the frustration we all feel when trying to deal with certain organisations. I know it is a Thursday afternoon, but I could talk for some time about how my satellite TV provider has proven quite elusive when I have tried to speak to an individual.

I think I can put the shadow Minister’s mind at ease on this issue. Clearly, the purpose of the undertakings is to encourage compliance, so an undertaking will not appear out of thin air, but will be the result of an ongoing conversation between the employer and the fair work agency. Clause 87(6) specifies that notices or undertakings can be sent by electronic means only if

“the person has indicated that notices under section 84 may be given to…an electronic address”

and in a particular format, so there is already a safeguard in the Bill to ensure that those messages do not go missing. The whole purpose of an undertaking is that there is an agreement between both parties that there will be compliance, so it would not be in the fair work agency’s interest to send things to addresses or places where it was not confident that they would be received. It is all about encouraging compliance, and that is the purpose of the clauses we have just debated, so I commend them to the Committee.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 84 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 85 to 87 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 88

Power to make LME order on application

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.