Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Bill

Stephen Pound Excerpts

Tuesday 5th February 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Bone]

I am grateful for my hon. Friend’s intervention. I hope, if I have time, to deal with that important point.

Let me roll back the clock to the last general election. I have the three manifestos: the best one, “Invitation to join the Government of Britain”, which is the Conservative one; the Liberal Democrat manifesto, “Change that works for you”; and the Labour one, “A future fair for all”. I also have the coalition programme for government. I have read all these again and they make interesting reading, but they do not deal anywhere with the question of gay marriage or same-sex marriage. It is not even hinted at. I thought that I had better check the number of pages in those documents. The coalition agreement has 35 pages, “Invitation to join the Government of Britain” has 119, “A future fair for all” has 77, and the Liberal Democrats’ manifesto has 109—a total of 340 pages of promises and nothing at all about gay marriage.

That is where there is a huge democratic deficit. When voters went to the polls, they did not vote for candidates on the basis that this issue was under consideration or the subject of a pledge by their party—there was no suggestion of that whatsoever. That is slightly misleading, though, because I vaguely remember —we were all working hard at the time—that the weekend or so before the general election there was a slight hoo-hah in the press to the effect that the Conservatives were going to bring in gay marriage. I thought, “Goodness gracious me—that can’t be right.” My leader, now the Prime Minister, had an interview with, I think, Adam Boulton on Sky television, and thankfully, when he was asked if the Conservatives were planning to bring in gay marriage, he said, “I’m not planning that.” So it was not in our manifesto or in anyone else’s and the leader of my party said that it absolutely was not going to be brought in—and two years later we find there is to be primary legislation about it.

Why should all 646 of us, with our individual consciences, determine this matter? Why is my view or that of the leader of my party any more important than the view of the person in the Dog and Duck in Wellingborough? They have not had a chance to express their view.

[Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab)]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Mr Bone]

No, I am sorry—I want other Members to have a chance to speak.

I have a simple solution to the problem. I hate to bring the EU into the debate, but the Prime Minister has gone for a referendum on that very important issue. Tonight, everyone on the Government Benches and everyone on the Opposition Benches could be united if the Minister, having listened to the debate, said, “I recognise that this is a matter of conscience and I want to put it to the British people.” We are going to have an in-out referendum on the EU in 2017, so why do we not put this matter off until 2017, and then the whole nation can decide on it, not just us 600 people here tonight?

--- Later in debate ---

[Emma Reynolds (Wolverhampton North East) (Lab)]

I hope that one day, we will live in a truly equal society in which there is little or no discrimination. I do not believe that that is a utopian dream. I believe that it is a possibility, but we have a very long way to go. The introduction of equal marriage and the Bill before us are an indispensable step in the journey towards that equal society.

It is disturbing to reflect—as many hon. Members have in this debate—on how the law used to discriminate against people on the basis of their sexuality. Until 46 years ago, it was a crime for a man to have sex with another man. Until 12 years ago, it was illegal for lesbian and gay people to serve in the military. The time when homophobia was incredibly and worryingly widespread is within the living memory of each and every right hon. and hon. Member of this House.

[Stephen Pound]

My hon. Friend is making a powerful point and one that we should hear more of. Does she agree that it would be good practice to extend the debate until 10 o’clock tonight? Is she aware of any mechanism by which that could be done? This matter is too important to be rushed through.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Lammy]

My hon. Friend is right. It was a moment—a great stain on the House—when we turned on an important minority.

I have received many letters from people for whom this is all coming too soon. They say that the speed of change for lesbian, gay and bisexual rights is happening too abruptly for them to comprehend and that the country they live in, the traditions they live by and the people they live next to are transforming in ways that make them feel uncomfortable, upset and undermined. They are not homophobic or racist, they claim, but they say, “Not now, later”.

To some extent, I sympathise. As much as I would want Britain always to be the beating heart of radical and progressive change, it is not. At root, it has always had a small c conservative spine running through it—an instinct that change should always be organic, a need for change to be owned by the people, not imposed from up high. That instinct must be respected, and I will be respecting it when I vote for the Bill, because it commands the support of the country, because it respects religious freedom and tradition by permitting, rather than mandating, religious organisations to conduct the ceremonies, and because it is the end of an organic journey from criminalisation to equality for the gay community that began over half a century a go. This change is right and necessary and the time is now.

There are still those who say it is unnecessary. “Why do we need gay marriage”, they say, “when we already have civil partnerships?” They are, they claim, “Separate but equal.” Let me speak frankly: separate but equal is a fraud. It is the language that tried to push Rosa Parks to the back of the bus. It is the motif that determined that black and white people could not possibly drink from the same water fountain, eat at the same table or use the same toilets. They are the words that justified sending black children to different schools from their white peers—schools that would fail them and condemn them to a life of poverty. It is an excerpt from the phrasebook of the segregationists and racists. It is the same statement, idea and delusion that we borrowed in this country to say that women could vote, but only if they were married and only when they were over 30. It is the same naivety that led to my dad being granted citizenship when he arrived here in 1956, but being refused by landlords who proclaimed, “No blacks, no Irish, no dogs”.

The phrase entrenched who we were, who our friends could be and what our lives could become. It is not separate but equal, but separate and discriminated against, separate and oppressed, separate and browbeaten, separate and subjugated. Separate is not equal, so let us be rid of it. As long as there is one rule for us and another for them, we allow the barriers of acceptance to go unchallenged. As long as our statute book suggests that love between two men or two women is unworthy of recognition through marriage, we allow the rot of homophobia to fester and we entrench a society where 20,000 homophobic crimes take place each year and where 800,000 people have witnessed homophobic bullying at work in the past five years.

I am a Christian. I go to mass. I recognise how important this is.

[Stephen Pound]

It is a privilege to be listening to my right hon. Friend’s extraordinary and impassioned peroration. Does he agree, however, that there are Christians who look for love in every aspect of their lives and the lives of those around them who still feel profound misgivings and concerns about this piece of legislation?