Mental Health Bill [ Lords ] (Ninth sitting)

Debate between Stephen Kinnock and Jen Craft

Committee stage
Tuesday 24th June 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Stephen Kinnock]

I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield Hallam for tabling this important new clause, and I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock for moving it on her behalf.

The new clause seeks to recreate some of the duties from the Mental Health Units (Use of Force) Act 2018, but apply them to patients detained under sections 2, 3, 4 or 5 of the Mental Health Act or those at risk of detention under that Act. This would cover patients receiving mental health treatment who are not in specialist mental health beds, such as young people with eating disorders who are detained in general paediatric wards.

There are practical reasons why we do not support the new clause as it is drafted. For the vast majority of mental health patients, this duty would duplicate duties that already exist under the 2018 Act. Although the new clause would go further in requiring the recording of use of force outside mental health units, it does not require any further use of that data to develop policies or train staff, which is a key element of the 2018 Act. As drafted, the new clause would introduce new duties to record and report data, without there being any clear further use of that data.

I accept, however, that we need to do more to reduce the use of restraint for all patients detained or at risk of detention under the Mental Health Act. NHS England has an ongoing programme of work, overseen by the reducing restrictive practice oversight group, to address this issue for people experiencing acute distress and mental health difficulties. My officials have also written to the CQC to commission it to develop a viable and proportionate mechanism for reporting use of restraint to the CQC, drawing on the views of NHS Providers and NHS England. Any potential changes can be made in regulations and would not require primary legislation, so we can continue this work in parallel with the passage of the Bill, delivering on our commitment to reduce the use of force for mental health patients. For those reasons, I hope that my hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock will withdraw the new clause.

[Jen Craft]

I thank the Minister for his comments. I am reassured, as I am sure my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield Hallam will be, to hear that he accepts the need to do more about the use of restraint, regardless of the setting in which it occurs. I am also pleased to hear about the measures by which he is seeking to do so in parallel with the passage of the Bill. I am content with what the Minister said, and I imagine my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield Hallam will be, too. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.

Clause, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 55

Power of Secretary of State to make consequential provision

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[The Chair]

With this it will be convenient to consider the following:

Clauses 56 to 58 stand part.

Government amendment 39.

Clause 59 stand part.

I should say to Members that we have 10 minutes left. If they want to conclude the Committee’s business this morning, they should bear that in mind.

Mental Health Bill [ Lords ] (Sixth sitting)

Debate between Stephen Kinnock and Jen Craft

Committee stage
Tuesday 17th June 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Stephen Kinnock]

Yes, but the issue may have a bearing on a potential Division. The challenge that I am facing is that my notes said,

“This amendment seeks to overturn”,

but we are talking about a clause that is seeking to overturn a previous amendment. Are we speaking in favour of a clause that will overturn an amendment? [Interruption.] Confusion reigns.

[Jen Craft]

I am equally confused; I did not think we were talking about an amendment. I thought we were talking about a clause. Apologies.

[The Chair]

Clause 35 was added by a Lords amendment; maybe that is where the confusion has come from. The Government tabled an amendment to leave out clause 35.

--- Later in debate ---

[Stephen Kinnock]

Right. Advocates have told us that implementing what is set out in the clause would raise logistical and resourcing problems, as it would require a significant shift from their current role. They have also raised concerns that if they acted in effect on behalf of the hospital to collect feedback, their independence and impartiality in the eyes of the patient might be undermined. We would prefer to direct resources to increasing access to advocacy services among in-patients, as proposed by the Bill. Advocates play a crucial role in promoting and protecting the rights of patients. We do not wish to detract from that or to dilute their role. I do not commend the clause to the Committee.

[Jen Craft]

Like many Committee members, I was deeply confused about how we were proceeding.

On the face of it, the clause broadly seems as if it should be part of any Act about mental health care, including post discharge. I have spoken about my own experience of interacting with the Mental Health Act as it stands. I might have found the clause fairly helpful post discharge and others might have found it useful as well. However, I have just heard the Minister’s description of the limitations of the clause, and the speech that I was about to make has been thrown into complete disarray by the confusion just now. But I implore the Minister to consider the fact that, when it comes to encouraging participation, understanding, and co-designing and co-producing services, capturing the experience of those recently detained under the Mental Health Act can be extraordinarily useful. Clause 35, which was added by an amendment from the Lords, seems a fairly useful way to do that.

--- Later in debate ---

[Stephen Kinnock]

The CQC visits and interviews thousands of detained patients each year under its statutory duty to monitor the use of the Mental Health Act. Those visits can lead to the CQC requesting improvements from service providers. The CQC publishes annual reports highlighting key findings and themes from those visits.

Trust boards are responsible for collecting and acting on service user feedback to improve services. Under the NHS contract, the patient and carer race equality framework requires trusts to have clear and visible systems in place for gathering and responding to feedback from patients and carers. What is more, Healthwatch England and its local branches also play a key role in representing the views of health and social care users. I do not really know what more the system could do. The clause simply over-embroiders and over-complicates; when that happens, we usually end up with vast numbers of unintended consequences.

We appreciate that concerns have been raised around the CQC’s role in collecting in-patients’ views. As I said, we would prefer to work with stakeholders to understand those concerns and improve the feedback mechanisms that we have, rather than reinvent the wheel and create something new. We recognise that, although there are multiple aims to the clause, the primary one is to provide a space for people to heal from their experiences of being detained. We are strongly of the view that inviting the individual to share their experiences as part of their advance choice document or care plan—

[Jen Craft]

I am glad that the Minister is explaining how capturing feedback and experience is being allowed for in other parts of the Bill. To clarify, in my own head I feel that the clause aims to capture the experience immediately after it has happened, just as hospitals offer women who have just given birth the opportunity to talk through their experience. It is healing for the patient to understand what happened to them, and it provides immediate feedback to the hospital. Is that kind of level captured in other parts of the Bill?

[Stephen Kinnock]

I understand and recognise my hon. Friend’s concerns, but we can rattle through all the different forums where feedback can be captured: the CQC, the trust boards, the patient and carer race equality framework, Healthwatch England and all the other informal channels in the mental health ecosystem. Our view is that adding another layer into all that would in the end be counterproductive. That is the Government’s position.

Mental Health Bill [ Lords ] (First sitting)

Debate between Stephen Kinnock and Jen Craft

Committee stage
Tuesday 10th June 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Stephen Kinnock]

The red thread that goes through all those questions, from both my hon. Friend and the Opposition spokesman, is very much about how we are going to build a clear and strong understanding of what good community support looks like, and then build towards it so that we achieve the aims that we set out for ourselves. In many ways, that is a difficult question to answer in this Committee, because an important part of the answer will come from the consultation on the code of practice that will be launched as soon as the Bill gets Royal Assent.

The Government believe passionately in making policy on the basis of evidence, so we need that consultation and input for the code of practice. We need a clear definition based on engagement with those who are at the cutting edge of delivering these services, so that we can define the new reality that we want to work towards, and then implement it step by step.

I apologise to Committee members for the fact that in some ways that is a step beyond what we are doing here in scrutinising the Bill. We will, I hope, pass the Bill, and then it will get Royal Assent. From that day, we will be straining every sinew to get community services to where they need to be.

[Jen Craft (Thurrock) (Lab)]

I do not want to speak outside the scope of the clause, but I would very much welcome a commitment from the Minister on ensuring that people with learning disabilities and/or autism are part of the process of the consultation to produce guidance on what good community services look like, and that they are engaged with from the start in a very real and meaningful way.

[Stephen Kinnock]

Absolutely, and I pay tribute to my hon. Friend for her outstanding work in the all-party parliamentary group; I am looking forward to meeting with the APPG as soon as diary time can be organised.

There is absolutely no point in the Government making policy in an ivory tower in Westminster or Whitehall. Policy must be evidence-based and based on the real, lived experience of patients—we are very committed to building a patient-centric national health service—and practitioners. If we try to make policy without involving the voices of those people, the policy will fail; we know that from bitter experience.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Stephen Kinnock and Jen Craft

Tuesday 11th February 2025 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Kinnock]

The hon. Lady will know that the Government’s position on the Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill is one of neutrality. I am on the Bill Committee simply to speak about the Government’s position on the workability and operationalisation of the Bill. We look forward to seeing the amendment that will be brought forward by my hon. Friend the Member for Spen Valley (Kim Leadbeater). Any comment we make or position we take will be based on the operationalisation of that amendment, should it become part of the Bill and, ultimately, should the Bill gain Royal Assent.

[Jen Craft (Thurrock) (Lab)]

Thurrock community hospital does fantastic work on integrated care, particularly on integrated mental health care. On a visit, representatives said that what makes the hospital successful is a commitment to working across integrated care boards, the local authority and other relevant partners in the community, as well as a commitment to meeting people where they are, finding out what is important for them and working from there. Does the Minister see that model as integral to the reform of mental health care in this country? Will he join me on a visit to Thurrock community hospital to see what it does and what can be learned from how that work is undertaken?

[Stephen Kinnock]

My hon. Friend is a doughty campaigner on this issue in her constituency. She is right that the integration of services is crucial to ensuring that we get the best possible outcomes for people who are struggling with their mental health. I would be very happy to discuss with her the possibility of me visiting her constituency.