Afghanistan and Pakistan
Stephen Gilbert Excerpts(13 years, 4 months ago)
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Stephen Gilbert (St Austell and Newquay) (LD)
It is a pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Stroud (Neil Carmichael) because, in putting human rights at the heart of the long-term stability of Afghanistan, he touched on an issue that I raised with the Prime Minister earlier today about the preconditions that we might put not on talks—I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron) that talks should be open and without conditions—but on power sharing.
The Afghanistan operation was legitimatised by the United Nations and was in this country’s national interest. Like my hon. Friend the Member for Cheltenham (Martin Horwood), I pay tribute to the 375 members of our armed forces who have lost their lives in that part of the world. This country has spent billions of pounds on the operation and committed itself to the mission in that region for more than a decade. That gives value to the nation’s overall commitment to delivering both our security and a better future.
The Foreign Affairs Committee report makes it clear that UK operations and those of the international community have led to some tactical successes on the ground, but the situation overall remains precarious. The military surge has no doubt played a key part in that, but it is not sufficient. The Prime Minister was right when he said today that we now need a political surge. That political surge should be Afghan-led, however. It is right that initial conversations are being had with the Taliban. However, when we look to a future of power sharing, rather than just negotiation, it is right that we ask ourselves: what are our red lines on women’s rights? What are our red lines on minority rights within Afghanistan? Are we going to ensure that any Afghan Government that includes the Taliban maintains freedom of worship and continues to develop democracy within its borders?
The repudiation of violence is, of course, the first step to legitimising the Taliban, but it is not the only step that they need to take and it should not be the only line that the UK Government should push in discussions. We owe it to those 375 members of our armed forces to ensure that we deliver in Afghanistan the kind of environment that we ourselves would want to live in.
Paul Flynn
The hon. Gentleman has described in these red lines an Afghanistan that never existed in the past 2,000 years. Is there not a great danger that our beliefs and our aim of securing these rights are so unobtainable that they will delay the peace process?
Stephen Gilbert
The Afghan constitution enshrines those rights. I am not seeking anything more or less than what is already in that constitution. I simply want to ensure that we do not move backwards by involving in the government of Afghanistan parties that might seek to go back rather than forwards.
Martin Horwood
My hon. Friend is making many important points. In response to the hon. Member for Newport West (Paul Flynn), is it not the case that if the Arab spring, the Arab awakening, has taught us anything, it is that these universal human rights and aspirations are present in every population? It is slightly patronising to regard them as inappropriate for some countries, even in places where we know that a perfect liberal democracy is not going to emerge in the short term.
Stephen Gilbert
As always, my hon. Friend makes a perfectly valid point. I have spoken in the House several times about the hope that the Arab spring is delivering to generations of people who have been excluded from the rights that we take for granted.
As the right hon. Member for Rotherham (Mr MacShane) disappeared into Vietnam, you might forgive me for mentioning Iraq briefly, Madam Deputy Speaker. We failed in Iraq; we made fundamental mistakes: de-Ba’athification, disarmament of the local militia and army, and demobilisation of a civic society. They were the wrong choices to take, and it took Iraqi society years to recover from them. To get Afghanistan right we need to learn those lessons. We need to ensure that we do not undermine Afghanistan’s society as it stands.
Rory Stewart
I wonder whether the hon. Gentleman might like to reflect on whether US expenditure of $125 billion a year and the presence of nearly 150,000 foreign troops are not likely to undermine local capacity and Afghan society in exactly the ways that he is warning against.
Stephen Gilbert
My hon. Friend makes a perfectly valid point, which is why I was encouraged by what our right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said earlier today. For every member of our forces leaving, there will be two local people taking those responsibilities forward. If I may touch briefly on recommendation 35 in the report—
Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)
Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)
Order. The hon. Gentleman has said several times that he will not give way.
Stephen Gilbert
I note that the hon. Gentleman has not been in the Chamber for the debate—
Madam Deputy Speaker
Order. It is up to the Member who is speaking whether he wishes to give way to another Member, and the hon. Gentleman has said that he is not going to give way because of the time pressures.
Stephen Gilbert
Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker. In the final minutes I want to look at some of the lessons that the report suggests we can learn for our actions and activities in Libya. The report says that we need a co-ordinated approach to post-conflict stabilisation, which is something that we have perhaps not succeeded in adopting in all the instances where our forces have been deployed in the past, particularly Iraq and Afghanistan. If we are truly to deliver a legacy in Libya that is worth the risks that our brave men and women are taking in that country, recommendation 35, which deals with the need for co-ordinated action, is crucial. We cannot have Departments squabbling over who is leading on post-conflict Libya or from which budgets post-conflict Libya will be helped. Departments need to work together and with their international colleagues. That is one of the key lessons that we can take from this debate.
Overall, the report—along with our international commitment—makes it clear that we as a nation cannot choose the history we live in to meet our budgets; rather, our budgets must be capable of meeting the history in which we find ourselves. We are a member of the NATO Parliamentary Assembly, and I am concerned that our contribution to that organisation will fall over the course of this Parliament to below the international minimum standard of 1.9%. Never again must the forces that we deploy be short of the tools that they need to do their jobs.
Mr Sheerman
I just want to explain why I was trying to intervene. The hon. Gentleman made the sweeping statement that we failed in Iraq. I was in the House at the time and voted for the Iraq war, and I do not believe that what we did to remove Saddam Hussein was a failure. The hon. Gentleman said that Iraq was a failure; I do not believe it was right for him to say that this afternoon.
Stephen Gilbert
I am grateful that the hon. Gentleman has managed to get his point on the record. As he knows, I was not in the House at the time. My position is that the Iraq conflict lacked international legitimacy and post-conflict reconstruction, and was a distraction from our important work in Afghanistan, which was in the national interest and did have legitimacy from the United Nations. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will be generous to me in future, as I allowed him to put his point on the record.
We as a country have an international obligation to spend 2% of GDP on our defence. Over this Parliament we will fall short of that. Never again must we allow our forces to cry out that they lack helicopters, body armour, boots or protective vests. Our role in this place is to be clear about the policy objectives, clear about the need to resource them properly and confident in our military’s capability to deliver those outcomes.
Foreign and Commonwealth Office
Stephen Gilbert Excerpts(13 years, 6 months ago)
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Stephen Gilbert (St Austell and Newquay) (LD)
It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell), who is not the only one who has difficulty protecting his local heritage. We have that difficulty in rural areas too. Indeed, I rise tonight to express the deep anger, disappointment and dismay across my constituency that the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government has approved a mass burn incinerator for the village of St Dennis in the heart of the constituency.
There is anger because a Government who make much of their localism agenda have overruled the wishes of the local parish council, the former district council and the former county council’s planning committee, and ignored representations from Cornwall’s six MPs. There is disappointment because the Government have fundamentally undermined their claims to be the greenest Government ever. There is dismay because the incinerator is the wrong solution to Cornwall’s waste problems and might dominate the small village of St Dennis for four decades to come.
Let me put the incinerator in context. At 120 metres, its stack is twice the height of this building’s famous Clock Tower, which houses Big Ben, and taller than the Statue of Liberty. It will dominate a small Cornish village and will be seen from many of Cornwall’s beauty spots. As we enter an era of global warming, Cornwall’s incinerator will belch out thousands of tonnes of CO2 emissions and other harmful particulates.
We know that inefficient incineration, in which the energy is not used, does not move waste up the waste hierarchy. It remains a disposal in the same category as landfill. It is therefore out of step with Government policy, but that is what is happening in Cornwall, and that is what the Secretary of State has approved. The incinerator will generate more than 200 extra fuel-guzzling lorry movements on Cornwall’s lanes and roads each and every day. It will depress reuse and recycling rates. Incineration has never been the right solution for Cornwall, only the quick fix for a council caught in a blind panic.
The difficult circumstances in St Dennis mask the great strength of the people. They have put up a tremendous fight against the plans in what has always been a David and Goliath situation. They are not nimbys and since 2005 they have only ever wanted a modern solution to a modern problem. They have fought with only half the information that other sides in the dispute have.
May I ask my hon. Friend the Deputy Leader of the House directly whether waste private finance initiative contracts and the potential liabilities to which they expose local authorities will now be material considerations in planning policy, as the inspector’s report suggests? Does that not fundamentally undermine the plan-led approach that the Government want to adopt? How can development be plan-led if local people who have no control over the contracts signed by a local authority will always be trumped by the provisions of that contract? How can it be right for a document for use in a public inquiry to be redacted? There should be no document needed for a public inquiry that is not available in full to all participants. I would appreciate it if my hon. Friend asked his colleagues in the Department to write to me on those points.
The community in mid-Cornwall is angry. Our faith in the democratic process has been shaken to its core. How can it be, when we have won our case every time we have put it to local decision makers, that our Secretary of State, who is responsible for localism, has overruled the local decision makers whom he says he seeks to empower? There is no doubt that Friday was a sad day for democracy in Cornwall, for Cornwall’s beautiful environment, and for future generations who will look back, bemused, at the folly that has been imposed on them.
Middle East, North Africa, Afghanistan and Pakistan
Stephen Gilbert Excerpts(13 years, 6 months ago)
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Stephen Gilbert (St Austell and Newquay) (LD)
It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Hackney North and Stoke Newington (Ms Abbott). I agreed with some of her analysis, although by no means all of it.
As we meet here tonight, civilians in Libya continue to become victims of a brutal regime that is showing no humanity in its efforts to impose its will on the Libyan people. The contrast between the cowardice of Gaddafi and the courage of his people could not be greater. While he continues to hide behind mercenaries and soak himself in delusional rhetoric in his compound, the vast majority of the Libyan people are standing in hope, in the open, and poorly armed, against him. Like all tyrants, he has lost his grip on reality. He is alone, and lost in his own propaganda.
When I look at the faces of the men and women fighting Gaddafi, I see a yearning for freedom and a grasping for dignity, pride and self-determination. All those are the antithesis of what Gaddafi represents. The only person he is fooling with his insane rhetoric is himself. He is hated by his people, he has lost legitimacy, he is shortly to become a wanted war criminal, and it is now a question of when, not if, he must go.
Against that backdrop, I pay tribute to the men and women of our armed forces who continue to execute the tasks set by the Government with the professionalism that we have come to expect from the best armed forces in the world. I remain in awe of their selfless determination and courage. In putting themselves in harm’s way to protect innocent people, they are standing up for the very best traditions of our nation, and they should rightly be proud of the work they are doing on behalf of their country.
Unlike the hon. Members for Walsall North (Mr Winnick) and for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn), I remain convinced of the legitimacy of the steps the international community is taking. We could not have stood by and watched Benghazi entered by Gaddafi’s murderous thugs. We could not have watched from the sidelines and merely grimaced at the slaughter that would inevitably have followed.
I fear that we are witnessing Syria begin the slide into the same violence and bloodshed that we have seen so dramatically in Libya. The United Nations estimates that over the last two months about 700 innocent civilians have been killed and hundreds more detained by the Syrian security services. We have seen their cities shelled by tanks, and troops conduct house-to-house searches to arrest and intimidate protesters. In Syria, as in the early days in Libya, people are standing up unarmed, with only an idea to inspire them: the idea of freedom, which we in this country all too often take for granted. The reality is that the only long-term solution for the Syrian regime is one that regains the consent of the Syrian people. Failure to reach out to a political solution will only result in Syria descending into further turmoil and bloodshed. The international community must do all it can to impress that on the Syrian regime.
President Assad is at a crossroads. He can either respond to the demands of his people or he can continue his efforts to repress them, but only one course of action will leave his regime with security and legitimacy. If he chooses repression over reform, I believe he will ultimately be swept from power. I therefore welcome the steps the Government have taken to put pressure on the Syrian regime, but I ask the Secretary of State to say in his winding-up speech whether the discussions with the Syrian ambassador touched on rights of access to that country for the foreign media, and what the Syrian representative told him about the national dialogue proposed by that country’s President.
The events of the last few months in north Africa and across the middle east highlight the urgent need to review our arms export regime, as the right hon. Member for Tonbridge and Malling (Sir John Stanley) made clear. People across the middle east and north Africa have displayed true courage in standing up against oppressive regimes that have used the most modern equipment and munitions to try to break their will. It is difficult for any of us in this House to stomach the idea that British-made equipment may have been used against these courageous people.
Of course it is right for the UK to play an active part in the international negotiations that have recently started at the United Nations aimed at securing a global arms trade treaty, but we must not lose sight of the choices that we ourselves can make to tighten our export regime. That is why I welcome both the Foreign Secretary’s review of British arms export controls announced last month and the fact that the Government have revoked more than 150 export licences in recent weeks—but we can, and we must, go further. We need to tighten controls on both exports and re-exports, and we need to make sure that we put human rights at the heart of our consideration of which countries we should export to. When will the Foreign Secretary’s arms export review be published, and will it be brought before the House for debate?
It should now be crystal clear that the long-term interests of this country will always be best found in standing next to the people who seek freedom, and against the regimes that would simply impose their will. This strategic reality needs to be reflected in all corners of our Government and in all parts of the United Kingdom’s global posture.
Oral Answers to Questions
Stephen Gilbert Excerpts(13 years, 6 months ago)
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Mr Hague
As I said, the UN is leading on the matter, and it will spearhead the reconstruction effort. The Department for International Development is handling the details of the British contribution and support, but if we have more information about companies’ involvement, I will write to the hon. Gentleman about it.
Stephen Gilbert (St Austell and Newquay) (LD)
5. What recent discussions he has had with his EU counterparts on the role of the European External Action Service; and if he will make a statement.
The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington)
I am in regular contact with my European counterparts about the work of the External Action Service, and with the EU High Representative, Baroness Ashton.
Stephen Gilbert
The Minister will be aware of the growing number of countries in Africa and the Pacific that do not have representation from either the UK or other European Union member states. Does he agree that the European External Action Service could provide representation to European nationals in those countries?
Mr Lidington
My hon. Friend talks about the EEAS’s role in consular representation. Of course, under the treaties, that competence is given explicitly to member states rather than to European institutions, but it is quite right that the EEAS should, in line with the treaties, support the work of EU member states, especially by signposting EU nationals who are unrepresented to embassies or high commissions of another member state where they can obtain representation.
Oral Answers to Questions
Stephen Gilbert Excerpts(13 years, 8 months ago)
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Mr Hague
I will make a point of hoping never to discover what motivates the right hon. Gentleman, and never to partake of any of it. [Interruption.] Labour Members are agreeing with me.
I do not accept that UN law is made in Beijing. It is important to have a clear legal base for actions we take internationally, as well as widespread international support and demonstrable need, and since the British Government, along with the French Government, have been absolutely in the forefront of ensuring that all the international sanctions and measures so far have been taken, the right hon. Gentleman is not in much of a position to criticise.
Stephen Gilbert (St Austell and Newquay) (LD)
12. What assessment he has made of the adequacy of consular services provided to UK nationals during the recent events in Libya; and if he will make a statement.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Alistair Burt)
In what has been the most complex FCO-led evacuation since Kuwait, some 600 British nationals were safely brought out of Libya, and we are all grateful for the immense amount of hard work done by those both in this country, and particularly in Libya, to look after our constituents. However, there are always lessons to be learned, and the Foreign Secretary has asked for a review of our evacuation practices in order to make sure that the practice overall is as good as the very best examples of it.
Stephen Gilbert
I am grateful to the Minister for his answer. Given that article 20 of the treaty on the functioning of the European Union allows British nationals to receive consular assistance from any EU member state, what discussions is he having with other EU states to ensure effective and co-ordinated EU responses to such crises in future?
Alistair Burt
There was co-operation and consultation between all European partners right from the beginning. We often shared each other’s planes. The United Kingdom was able to bring out 819 foreign nationals of 43 different countries by way of the work we did. The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right that it is essential in such circumstances that there is a lot of co-operation, and we will continue to make sure our practices provide for that at all times.
Oral Answers to Questions
Stephen Gilbert Excerpts(13 years, 9 months ago)
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Mr Hague
Clearly all sides would have to make compromises to arrive at a two-state solution, and we have conveyed that message strongly to Israel in recent weeks. We have clearly expressed our disappointment that the settlement moratorium was not continued, and have made plain that we regard settlements as illegal. When Foreign Minister Lieberman of Israel visited London on Monday last week, I argued strongly that Israel needed to make the necessary compromises to allow direct talks to resume and to pave the way for a two-state solution. We will continue to convey that message.
Stephen Gilbert (St Austell and Newquay) (LD)
4. What plans he has to increase the prominence of bilateral relations between the UK and the countries of Latin America; and if he will make a statement.
The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Mr Jeremy Browne)
The Government are strengthening partnerships with Latin America. I have seen for myself that it is a dynamic and important region during visits to Columbia, Chile, Mexico, Panama and Guatemala. My right hon. Friends the Deputy Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary will visit the region in the next few months.
Stephen Gilbert
What further specific steps is the Minister taking to improve the United Kingdom’s relationship with Mexico and Brazil, which have two of the world’s fastest-growing economies and are potential strategic allies in the 21st century?
Mr Browne
I strongly agree with the sentiment underlying my hon. Friend’s question. I think most people would accept that the last Government neglected Latin America, and that is what we are trying to rectify. Along with other Ministers, I shall be accompanying the Deputy Prime Minister on visits to both Brazil and Mexico the week after next, when my right hon. Friend will take part in high-level meetings and, I hope, increase our engagement with both those important G20 countries.
European Union Bill
Stephen Gilbert Excerpts(13 years, 10 months ago)
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Chris Bryant
I look forward to hearing the hon. Gentleman’s arguments. However, I do not understand why it is okay to support Ireland without a referendum, but impossible to provide such support to another country without a referendum.
Stephen Gilbert
I am grateful for the old hon. Gentleman’s time and patience in giving way.
Is not a further problem that, in a time of crisis, quick action might be required, and a referendum lock could mean that the problem got a lot worse before action could be taken?
Chris Bryant
Indeed. Obviously, a referendum would also incur significant costs. The Government are trying to argue that holding the alternative vote referendum on any day other than 5 May this year would cost some £30 million. I presume that any referendum under the amendment would also cost some £30 million, and I think that that is inappropriate. The clause refers to “a common EU defence”, and although I do not want to hand over the setting up of a standing army to the European Union, I acknowledge that there is already a European army, because there are troops from member states acting in Kosovo—and they have done so in Bosnia—as well as Swiss troops under an EU banner. I am reluctant to say that a referendum would be needed on any aspect of a common defence policy, because that would be a mistake in our national security.
Mike Gapes
I was about to seek your advice, Mr Caton. I would love to become involved in a debate on the merits of European co-operation and a new Bretton Woods, and numerous other such issues, but I do not think that they are covered by clause 6.
The questions with which the Bill confronts us are “Is it necessary?”, “Does it do what it says on the tin?”, and “What will be the effects of it and, in particular, of the amendments and clause 6 if they become law?” In my opinion, either this is a recipe for litigation and a lawyers’ paradise, as others have said both on Second Reading and today, or it is irrelevant. Indeed, it may be both: it may be irrelevant in essence, but may none the less serve as a mechanism enabling people to opt for judicial reviews and litigation when referendums are not proposed on certain aspects of decisions made in the European Union and the Council of Ministers.
We are experiencing a difficult period in this country. Very few politicians have had the courage to stand up to the Murdoch press and the Eurosceptic media, and the capitulation of the Liberal Democrats over the last few months, as they have changed their previous approach to the one to which they have signed up in the coalition, further weakens the voice of pro-European people in the country.
Stephen Gilbert
I note the accusation of Stockholm syndrome, but I suspect that the hon. Gentleman is suffering from amnesia. The Liberal Democrat manifesto was clear: it said that there would be a referendum
“the next time a British government signs up for fundamental change in the relationship between the UK and the EU.”
The coalition is committed to ensuring that that does not happen.
Mike Gapes
Perhaps when he makes his own speech the hon. Gentleman will be able to clarify whether the Liberal Democrats are still in favour of a “big bang referendum”, as was suggested on some occasions, whether—as happened with the Lisbon treaty—they will vote in three separate ways on any of the issues that arise from clause 6, and whether the Liberal Democrats in the other place will vote in line with their Front-Bench colleagues here or will also be split in three directions.
I believe that the measures before us are not necessary and should be rejected. I shall vote against clause 6 and the amendments concerning, in particular, the European financial stability mechanism, which I think would be positively damaging to the future of our country.
Austin Mitchell
I have not actually said that, have I? I have said that the Chancellor treated the Irish case as a one-off, but it is not. It opens the door to giving aid to other countries that have put themselves in the same situation through a foolish adherence to a euro that is fated to collapse. I make no judgment about the Irish case, although it is a big bill to pay for a country that the Chancellor tells us is over-borrowed and has no credit on the world market. Why should that country start raising huge loads more money to pay other countries because of the failures of the euro?
Stephen Gilbert
I take the hon. Gentleman’s point, but can he imagine a situation in which rather than being a giver, the UK is the receiver of aid under that arrangement? Is he really saying that rather than get the aid that our financial sector might hypothetically need in a quick and timely way, he would want a referendum lock to apply?
Austin Mitchell
I am afraid that that is ridiculous. I was leaping with joy when the hon. Gentleman, a Liberal Democrat, said he was taking a point that I had made. I thought that sense had at last dawned, but alas it turned out to be only stupidity. Nobody is suggesting that the UK would want Europe to be liable if our system failed. The crucial point is that we did not enter the euro. Having not entered it, we should be immune from the consequences imposed on those who did. That is all I am saying. I do not want European aid. The wisdom of former Chancellors in keeping us out of the euro allows us to adjust our exchange rate. Other nations have problems because they cannot do that. We have had a 25% devaluation, and the pound could—and should, in my view—go lower. That reduces the cost of our currency and makes us competitive once again. That is our adjustment. We do not need help or aid because we have the flexibility of being outside the euro. Does the hon. Gentleman want this economic education class to continue or will he keep quiet?
Stephen Gilbert
Is the hon. Gentleman really saying that we are both outside the euro and outside the effects of the euro? Is he saying that Portugal, Ireland, Italy or any country that needs European financial help in future can be allowed to collapse, and that that will have no effect whatever here in the UK?
Austin Mitchell
Oh it is difficult talking to Liberal Democrats! I did not actually say that we would be outside the effects of the euro. In fact, the foolish deflation that is going on all over Europe damages us, because half of our trade is with Europe and we want our exports to Europe to increase. With our ability to devalue, we have the ability to increase our exports, and they are increasing for the first time in many years—thanks to devaluation. I want markets in Europe to be healthy, but I do not want the British taxpayer to be asked to support Europe in its folly.
Stephen Gilbert
It is a pleasure to have the opportunity to contribute to this debate. Anybody watching us must think that they have fallen through the looking glass. We are debating amendments to a Bill that prevents further transfer of power from the UK to the European level of government, in the context of a coalition that has said that it will allow no further significant transfers of power in the duration of its office, and yet Conservative and Labour Members are attacking the Bill while Liberal Democrat Members try to defend it.
Mr Cash
I cannot resist intervening. The hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well that the Minister for Europe has said that there is no chance or intention of holding a referendum under the proposals in this Bill until the next Parliament at the earliest—we are in dead parrot territory. The Minister will not deny that. The debate is about what is happening right now. Europe is in total chaos. Every country bar Germany is imploding, but the hon. Gentleman is carrying on as if everything is fine.
Stephen Gilbert
I feel like I am entering into my own version of “Back to the Future” in debating the EU with the hon. Gentleman. The Government’s position is quite clear. There will be no referendum over the next five years because there will be no significant transfer of power or competences. The Liberal Democrats welcome that, and I would have thought that he would too.
Stephen Gilbert
In fact, what we know from yesterday’s debate in this Committee is that the Labour party, given the bizarre system it proposed in its defeated amendments, is in favour of giving the House of Lords a veto on whether the British Parliament chooses to put a referendum to the British people.
Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)
Did I hear the hon. Gentleman correctly? Did he say a moment ago that there will be no further significant transfer of power to Brussels? Will he outline which not very significant powers will be transferred during this Parliament?
Stephen Gilbert
The Bill is absolutely clear on that. A number of criteria have to be met and a number of hurdles must be jumped. We debated the significance test yesterday—the hon. Gentleman was in the Chamber and would have carefully listened to the debate—but let me give him an example. At the moment, in the objectives of the EU as I understand them, there is no requirement to combat climate change. Of course, the EU is rightly and properly taking action on environmental issues, but the simple codification of that into one of the objectives of the EU would be quite a minor change, and one that we would all welcome and accept as necessary and important.
Mr Cash
Almost everything the hon. Gentleman says demonstrates the complete divergence of views between many Conservatives and many Liberal Democrats. Does he accept that a key problem facing the coalition Government is not only the integral federal views of the Liberal Democrats on matters relating to Europe, by which they are totally besotted, but the implementation of the Lisbon treaty? That is where the problem arises. People talk about transfers of power, but actually, the implementation of existing arrangements under the Lisbon treaty is causing so much difficulty—it is also an embarrassment to Opposition Front Benchers.
Stephen Gilbert
I am grateful to my hon. Friend, but it is not for me to judge who or what might be an embarrassment to those on the Front Benches. The reality is that there are clearly a number of safeguards in the Lisbon treaty, including the emergency brake clauses, which can be exercised by national Parliaments. In some cases, they would not require the UK Government to take a view—Parliament can take a view of its own volition. However, I shall resist further temptation from hon. Members and press ahead with my comments on some of the specific amendments in the group, particularly amendments 81, 54, 8 and 79.
Amendment 81 is in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Witham (Priti Patel), and I have a slight declaration of interest to make in that my great-grandfather was a fisherman along the north Cornwall coast out of Padstow. My constituency also includes many fishing communities, for whom the common fisheries policy in its current iteration is a significant problem. There is huge agreement across the House that having nationally decided quotas rather than regionally set quotas is a problem. The discard policy is also a problem, because it is absurd for this nation to have to throw back hundreds of tonnes of perfectly good fish when we could be using it to feed people in this time of pressures on food security around the world and concerns about the sustainability of fish resources.
I share my hon. Friend’s determination to secure real reform of the CFP. We need to put sustainability at its heart and ensure that local communities are driving it. We also need to review the policy on discards. However, amendment 81 is—to shamelessly snag a pun that has already been used tonight—a red herring. I do not see how it will strengthen our hand when it comes to reform of the CFP—
Priti Patel
As I said earlier, the amendment would not reform the policy per se, but I tabled it because the future of our territorial waters cannot be left to chance. It is a fundamental issue.
Stephen Gilbert
I have some sympathy with the point that my hon. Friend makes, but it is a misnomer to call the amendment an effort to reform the CFP. As I understand it, the competences under which the CFP sits were transferred three decades ago. They are already decided under qualified majority voting, and having a referendum on this issue—should it even be a topic for debate, and I know of no such plans—would have no effect.
Thomas Docherty
It might help the debate to know that the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee, of which I am a member, will shortly carry out an inquiry into fishing policy. I am sure that the Minister will be excited to have the chance to give evidence on the issue of discards.
Stephen Gilbert
I am grateful for that intervention and I am sure that the fact that the Committee will look at this issue will be as worthy of note as the fact that I have joined hon. Members from both sides of the House in signing the early-day motion on discards policy. On every occasion that this House has debated the CFP, a clear signal should have been received by Ministers that we want reform and we want it now. However, amendment 81 is not that reform.
It is clear that negotiations on the CFP will start later this year. I would like an assurance from the Minister that he has heard the concerns that have been expressed in this debate and will put protection of the UK’s fish stocks at the heart of those negotiations.
Martin Horwood
What is my hon. Friend’s opinion on some of the other amendments that have been tabled? Does he think that reform of the CFP might be made more difficult if we have such a hair trigger for referendums that it brings the whole process grinding to a halt?
Stephen Gilbert
My hon. Friend makes a very good point. We need to be careful what we wish for. Many of the amendments we are discussing would introduce a hair-trigger—an apt expression—approach to referendums that could end up shooting the UK’s best interests in the foot.
Jim Shannon
The hon. Member mentioned regionalisation and the opportunity for other parts of the UK to be in control of fishing. Does he think that the localised control of fishing is the way forward to take control away from Europe and ensure that local people, who have the knowledge and the experience, can have an input into the process?
Stephen Gilbert
I share the approach that the hon. Gentleman outlines. It is the fishing communities who understand sustainability and the importance of ensuring that we have viable stocks for the future, and they will respond to those needs. It is right that responsibility for fishing policy should be reduced to the region, if not further to local areas.
Amendment 54, in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Bury North (Mr Nuttall), is a little bizarre, because it promotes the notion that being given extra rights would require a referendum. The rights of EU citizens come under article 20 of the treaty on the functioning of the European Union and, as far as I can tell, they number four at the moment. They are the right to move and reside freely within the territory of the member states; the right to vote and stand as candidates in elections to the European Parliament and in municipal elections in the state of residence, under the same conditions as nationals of that state; the right to petition the European Parliament, to apply to the European ombudsman, and to address the institutions and advisory bodies of the European Union; and the right to enjoy, in the territory of a third country in which the member state of which they are nationals is not represented, the protection of diplomatic and consular authorities—a point about which the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) spoke at some length. My contention is that adding to the rights of citizens cannot be seen as a transfer of power or competence from the EU to the UK.
Mr Nuttall
Does my hon. Friend agree that, by definition, if citizens of another European Union member state are given rights by the European Union to do things in this country, the rights of our own citizens are diluted and power is therefore transferred to the rest of the European Union?
Stephen Gilbert
I simply do not agree. If rights are transferred to the EU level, every European citizen will benefit from those rights, including the many hundreds of thousands of British citizens who live and work in the other European Union member states.
Mr Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con)
Does my hon. Friend agree that they have rights and we have liabilities, and that is the difference?
Stephen Gilbert
My hon. Friend and I share an interest in many matters, and I was delighted that the other place came to his rescue in the Parliamentary Constituencies and Voting Bill—although I am less pleased that it did not come to Cornwall’s rescue. However, on this issue I disagree with him. It is a caricature to say that they have rights and we have liabilities. The reality is that many of the people I went to school with now live and work in member states of the European Union and it is right that they should have protections extended to them in the same way that protections are extended to EU nationals living and working here.
My hon. Friend’s philosophical disagreement does not detract from my central point, which is that this is not a transfer of power or competence from the UK, so I do not see the need for the referendum lock to be introduced. More broadly, is it not belief in those human rights and the shared view of human nature—the belief in the rule of law, the sanctity of human life and that all individuals are born equal—that unites member states in the European Union and leads to our ability to have a common view on many issues?
Mr Cash
On the question of human rights—of course, our manifesto committed us to the repeal of the Human Rights Act 1998—what makes the hon. Gentleman think that the people of the United Kingdom would have been that much worse off if the European Human Rights Act had never been passed? What makes him believe that the vast amounts of money going to all the lawyers in the human rights environment are doing the people of this country any great service?
Stephen Gilbert
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his contribution. The European Human Rights Act gave rights to people in this country that they did not enjoy previously. Those rights are now in statute. Of course, hon. Members can make the argument that the House could have conferred those rights—but then this House is exactly the body that did confer them, first through the 1972 treaty, and secondly under the previous Government through bringing the European human rights treaty into British statute, as I understand it.
Mr Nuttall
My hon. Friend is touching on one of the fundamental differences between how the European Union sees rights, and how this sovereign Parliament sees them. Parliament does not think that citizens need to be given any human rights because they are free to do anything under the law, whereas the European Union thinks that it has those rights to hand out to citizens of its European superstate as part of some great, grandiose gesture. That is the difference.
Stephen Gilbert
I am grateful to my hon. Friend. As a loyal subject of the Crown, I am equally pleased to be a citizen of the EU.
I will finish with some brief comments on amendments 8 and 79, which deal with the notion of a referendum lock on giving further financial aid to countries other than Ireland—an issue on which the hon. Member for Great Grimsby (Austin Mitchell) and I have just engaged. If the amendments are passed, they would damage diplomatic relations, delay the EU in helping struggling economies and potentially deny to the UK the same kind of benefits that Ireland has had in the past.
I want to make it clear that the Liberal Democrats support the Bill: it is about reconnecting the British people with the European issue; about saying that over the next five years, there will be no further transfer of powers and competences; about putting that commitment in law; and about raising the benchmark significantly higher than it has been to date.
Ben Gummer
I had many comments to make but, happily, my hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Mr Cash) has covered much of the ground I wanted to cover. I shall therefore be quite brief. Yesterday, in a memorable speech, my hon. Friend the Member for Grantham and Stamford (Nick Boles) described the Bill as the William Cash memorial Bill. Although I would not like to use such lapidary language with regard to my hon. Friend the Member for Stone, it is certainly a memorial in the sense that all that he has done over the years to protect the House and nation from the transference of powers to the European Union is contained within clause 6, so that it will not happen again without a referendum of the British people. I suspect that that is why my hon. Friend, whom I admire and have watched with great interest today, as a newcomer to the House, is uncertain about parts of the Bill.
Mention was made earlier of the fact that my hon. Friend’s seat is often left cold while he explains the dangers of the transference of powers. The Bill will render much of that function, which he has served with such honour over the years, no longer necessary, because it encompasses what the British people have wanted for so long, as has been pointed out by so many people in this debate, which is for the powers of Parliament to remain here and not be transferred. Whether on the euro, social policy, finance, jurisprudence or border control—all those things that he has spoken about so many times—will now sit here in statute unable to be moved to a qualified majority voting system in the Council without the matter being referred to the British people.
The Bill does not just enshrine in law the wishes of the British people over many years; it is also a testament to the intellectual coherence of the coalition’s project. It is about retaining power at the most local level possible. That does not just apply to this Parliament, but involves pushing power down to local communities wherever possible. That is why the cat-calling about the Bill from the Opposition is so misguided. They do not understand how it fits into the wider revolution being instituted by the coalition Government of bringing power as close to the people as possible. That is why I suspect they do not like it very much. It goes against everything that the Labour party believes in, which is to push power up to people who know best at all times.
We need only look at some of the comments made in this and previous debates. The right hon. Member for Rotherham (Mr MacShane), who is no longer in his seat, said in a previous debate on the European Union that the Bill would be a mistake because it would make it harder for Turkey to accede to the EU. Today, we heard points about the European arrest warrant—because, of course, it is he who knows best, and not the British people. Of course, it is the Opposition Front-Bench team who know best—in their minds—and not the British people.
European Union Bill
Stephen Gilbert Excerpts(13 years, 10 months ago)
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Mr David
I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention; she makes a good point. However, the matter might not be quite as she has said. I will address that point later in my contribution, if I may.
Amendment 85 seeks to reaffirm the role of Parliament by giving it the power to consider and decide whether a proposed European change is significant enough to hold a referendum on. A special committee of both Houses—we call it the referendum committee—would be established, and it would consider the fine detail of the Government’s proposal. A recommendation would then go to both Houses, and if both Houses agreed that the change was important enough to warrant a referendum, a referendum would be held.
Stephen Gilbert (St Austell and Newquay) (LD)
Will the hon. Gentleman tell the Committee what would happen if one of the Houses of Parliament took the view that a referendum should take place, and the other took the view that it should not? Is that not an inherent contradiction in the Opposition amendments?
Stephen Gilbert
I understand the hon. Gentleman’s purpose, but it is conceivable that the House of Commons would reach one view on whether a referendum is required, and the House of Lords would reach another view. How do the Opposition intend to settle that discrepancy?
Mr David
Before too long, we hope, both Chambers would be elected. Therefore, we believe that it is important for Parliament to speak with one voice. Under our amendment, Parliament would be centre-stage in the whole process. Parliament, and Parliament alone, would decide whether a referendum ought to be held, which is far preferable to referendums being decided according to abstract criteria under this ill-conceived Bill. It is also far better than allowing the Government to make the decision.
Nia Griffith
Absolutely. That is the important point and that is why we are calling for a committee to be set up. That would provide the opportunity for the issues to be discussed. If the subject were important and interesting, there would be media interest and lots of lobbying and, as with any work that is done in Committee, the issue would become one that people considered. The whole point of having any committee is that it can make that difference. Committees can do the work on the detail. An innocuous little detail can turn out to have a major impact and that point can be uncovered in Committee. Likewise, something that seems quite big to start with will, when it is considered in detail, be shown to do not much more than maintain the status quo.
Stephen Gilbert
As I understand the Opposition’s proposals, there will be one committee comprising Members from both Houses, who will then separate and go back to their relevant Chambers to carry the argument in favour of or against a referendum. Perhaps the hon. Lady can enlighten me given that her Front-Bench spokesman was unable to do so. What will happen in the event of a clash between the Houses?
Nia Griffith
It is very clear. The idea is that if one Chamber does not think there is a need for a referendum, there will be no referendum. If both Chambers think there is such a need, there will be a referendum. Clearly, the committee’s recommendations will be considered and we will ask whether the matter is of major significance. One would expect any matter of major significance to create excitement in both Houses.
Stephen Gilbert
So whereas the coalition proposes to legislate to ensure that the people have a referendum, the Opposition are proposing a committee of Members of the two Houses, both of which have a veto, which will mean that we might not have a referendum at all. Is that the position?
Nia Griffith
The hon. Gentleman has to understand that the committee will make recommendations and it is not about what the committee will say. When the committee comes back, we will not all automatically do what it says; it will make recommendations. My hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston (Ms Stuart) talked about collective memory, what it is and how important it is. The people on the committee might well have an enormous amount of experience and the people who are likely to want to be involved or to consider the detail will have done so previously. As she pointed out, ministerial teams often change and have to pick up a brief very quickly, so they will not necessarily have that knowledge.
The idea is that the committee should consider the detail, sift out what really matters and make a recommendation, but the Houses will not have to take that recommendation at face value. If the issue is of major significance, surely by that time some interest will have arisen, people will be doing their own research and people will be coming to the Chamber with plenty to say.
My constituents are saying to me, “You do the nitty-gritty and sort out the bits and pieces. When you have done that, you can tell us whether you think that this is a matter of major significance.” That is the idea—the committee would bring that information to the House, and this House and the other place would make the decision.
Charlie Elphicke
Shortly after my hon. Friend the Member for Stone, the hon. Gentleman is a true expert, and whenever he rises to speak I listen with interest and learn.
Would the proposed committee include, for example, the hon. Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston (Ms Stuart), who is highly knowledgeable but does not always take quite the on-message view that her pager instructs? Would it include my hon. Friend the Member for Harwich and North Essex (Mr Jenkin), or his constituency neighbour, my hon. Friend the Member for Clacton (Mr Carswell)? I can think of no more expert people to sit on such a committee, but, if the new clause were passed and the Bill changed as advertised, those people—who are so expert and know so much about matters européenne—would not find themselves on it. I have a sense that the Front-Bench teams of whoever was in power, might not include such people. For that reason, new clause 9 is a Trojan horse. Its purpose, in my humble opinion, is to take power away from the people and to stuff it upstairs in a committee; and that, in essence, is the wrong thing to do.
Stephen Gilbert
Is there not another problem? Today, we have teased out of the Opposition the fact that the new clause would effectively give the other place a veto. If the House of Lords decided that it did not want a referendum but the House of Commons decided that it did, we would have stalemate and no referendum.
Charlie Elphicke
My hon. Friend makes a powerful point. The House of Lords was once a thoughtful, revising Chamber that would have orderly debates and not detain business excessively, but some of the new arrivals seem to have changed the way in which it operates. I am told that the Standing Orders and courtesies of this House prevent me going any further into all that happened in the House of Lords, but we have all read the news and seen the number of marathon sessions, and it is incumbent on some of its newer Members to think of the health of some of its older Members and to be a little more considerate than they have been of late. My hon. Friend is right about the House of Lords: whether we go further into or come out of Europe is a matter that should start in the House of Commons, because this is the House of the people.
Austin Mitchell
When the hon. Gentleman has been here longer, he will appreciate that my position is not exactly the same as that of my party’s Front Benchers. My position is sensible, austere and Eurosceptic, and I am anxious for the consultation of the people on any matters that involve the sacrifice of power to Europe. We should have had a referendum on the Lisbon treaty—I concede that point. I and other hon. Members argued for it strenuously at the time, but we were overruled. That was a retrograde step that made the treaty and its provisions less acceptable to this country, because the people felt that they were being imposed on them. I am in favour of referendums, and I do not think that the Bill is strong enough in that respect.
Stephen Gilbert
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way, and I do represent a fishing port. Does he agree with David Blackburn of The Spectator that the Bill
“would introduce a watertight referendum lock on future EU treaties”—
perhaps salt-watertight—
“I doubt whether the Lady herself could have done much better in the circumstances”?
Austin Mitchell
All I can say is that David Blackburn must be more naive than I thought.
I was giving the example of the CFP, which was sold to us as harmless. We were told that it would lead to effective conservation because everybody would be involved, everybody had access to our waters and everybody would make decisions collectively. However, it led to the decimation of our fish stocks and the looting, frankly, of about £3 billion-worth of fish and jobs. There is nothing that we can do about that, because it happened under Ted Heath, who used to come down to the House in every fishing debate and justify his mistake. It is all in the past, and we discovered the problem only later. That is what happens.
My hon. Friend the Member for Llanelli (Nia Griffith) argued that people are not interested in the details, which is certainly true. We in Grimsby are perhaps more interested than people in Wales in all matters European, particularly to do with fishing boats, but people are not interested in details. The consequences of what happens are interesting, however, because they cause the loss of jobs and employment.
There was a provision in the Lisbon treaty—was it article 121?—stating that aid could be invoked by majority vote in the event of threats to the euro from natural disasters. It has now been invoked for aid to Ireland, which will drag us into making huge contributions not only to Ireland—the Chancellor of the Exchequer projected that as a one-off—but to the other states that follow in the domino-like collapse that will happen. The consequences of concessions that are said to be of no damage, of no great moment and unimportant become clear only later. The Bill provided an opportunity to resist that process, but disappointingly, it is not strong enough.
When we consider the amendments, we should view the European situation with a certain amount of scepticism. The committee referred to in new clause 9 would be controlled by the Whips and by Government, whatever we are told about the intentions behind it. I am suspicious of proposals to modify European powers that come from Euro-enthusiasts such as my party’s Front Benchers. What is in it for them? They want Europe to have its way, and the new clause is a way of allowing that while appearing to protect us.
I support amendment 11 and shall certainly vote for it if there is a vote—I hope there is, because I want to support it. However, we cannot be sure that, if the House were faced with a choice of whether to reverse a Minister’s decision that an issue was not worth a referendum, it would take the decision independently. Debates such as today’s give a clue as to what would happen. We happy band of Eurosceptics, including most of the Members present, have argued consistently, been right all along and warned of the consequences of what has happened. Those disastrous consequences have emerged, but nobody has said, “Oh, my God, we should have listened to the Eurosceptics on this matter.” People have constantly abused us for rocking the boat and as dissenters and just a nuisance, but we are right, and we are right to fight.
However, we cannot be sure that we will win the fight. Should a matter be referred to the House under amendment 11, the House would be whipped as always and Members would see their careers relying on voting with the Government. They would think, “I shall get a powerful position even more quickly, as a Parliamentary Private Secretary to the Minister for Bathing Pools, or I shall be given a junior ministerial job in charge of seeing that library books are returned promptly”—if any libraries are left open under the Government’s proposals. Ambition, love of the party and support for the party will always whip people into line. Amendment 11 would not put a roadblock in Ministers’ way; it would erect another hurdle that they would be forced to jump. That would be salutary for them, because the more hurdles they jump, the more exhausted they will get and the greater the chance that we will eventually prevail.
Martin Horwood
I do not always agree with the hon. Gentleman, particularly on matters European, but I pay due credit to his Committee and its work. The level of scrutiny that Parliament now gives European matters is certainly on the increase, which is a healthy trend. I give due respect to him for that.
Amendments 67 and 68 would remove the requirement to hold a referendum on any treaty change under the simplified revision procedure that would pool or transfer power or competence from the UK level to the European level. They would not remove the new requirement for Parliament to ratify every treaty change through an Act of Parliament, so Parliament would have the opportunity to put back the requirement for a referendum if that was felt to be absolutely necessary.
The new procedure that the amendments would create for the UK to support and ratify a treaty change made under the SRP that had already been voted for in unanimity at European Council level would simply be for the Minister to lay a statement setting out what the treaty change was and for the Government then to bring forward primary legislation, which would have to be passed by Parliament. That would not touch the requirement for a referendum to ratify any major new treaty under the ordinary revision procedure.
As I have said, even the Act of Parliament under the SRP could ultimately include a referendum in a particular case. In tabling the amendments, the issue we are raising is whether it is advisable to use referendums on any—I stress “any”—transfer or sharing of power or competence with the EU. The provisions for a referendum lock set out in clauses 3 and 4 seem to cover more or less any future change by the SRP, regardless of its size, content, purpose, necessity, or indeed whether it is in the UK’s national interest.
I appreciate that the obvious counter to that train of thought is that if there is a good case to be made for a future treaty change, the Government and Parliament of the day should be able to make that to the British public, and I accept that there is a strong case for that on major questions. That case is perhaps made more strongly by Conservative Members than by Liberal Democrats, but I recognise that it is an important one. It might even include some issues such as EU membership for countries such as Turkey. My concern is whether referendums are the best way to approach any future change, even if it is only technical and insignificant.
Stephen Gilbert
One area of competence that the EU currently acts in but does not have defined is combating climate change. Does my hon. Friend agree that saying that we need a referendum when that activity becomes defined is a stretch too far?
Martin Horwood
That is a good example of how a completely uncontroversial and essentially technical change might nevertheless, if we are not careful, trigger a referendum. Like the hon. Member for Devizes (Claire Perry), I am an enthusiast for referendums in general and voted for one on the Lisbon treaty and for an in/out referendum at the same time, but those are undoubtedly significant changes.
The House of Lords Constitution Committee has noted more recently that there are some risks and costs associated with referendums. We have held just nine referendums since 1973, although only one has been UK-wide. The Committee conducted an in-depth inquiry on referendums in the UK last year, concluding:
“The balance of the evidence that we have heard leads us to the conclusion that there are significant drawbacks to the use of referendums”.
I do not sense any implied rejection of referendums per se, but there are arguments for using them with restraint and ensuring that they are limited to major issues.
Some of the drawbacks cited in the Committee’s report include, first, that referendums can undermine representative democracy—not a point that I necessarily agree with, but one that some Opposition Members have made; secondly, that referendums are costly—unarguably an important point in the current austere environment; thirdly, that voters show little desire to participate in them; fourthly, that referendums tend not to be about the issue in question—very likely with some of the technical issues in this case; fifthly, that referendums fail to deal with complex issues; sixthly, that referendums never “settle” the issue—despite expectations; and seventhly, that referendums are a “conservative device” or a block on progress. As a result, the Lords Committee concludes that referendums should be used on questions only of “fundamental constitutional change”. Some examples given are, rather alarmingly, referendums to abolish the monarchy, to change the electoral system for the House of Commons and to change the UK’s system of currency.
I have to ask the Minister whether including all SRP changes under the referendum lock in the Bill is in keeping with the Lords Committee’s detailed findings on the use of referendums. Given the current “treaty fatigue” throughout the European Union, SRP is highly likely to be the most common form of treaty change for the foreseeable future. It is highly likely also that future treaty changes will be relatively small and targeted affairs designed to tweak existing treaties rather than to rewrite them substantially. Is it not therefore highly likely that the referendum lock in clause 3 will capture highly specific, arguably complex, limited and uncontroversial treaty changes?
Such changes might, nevertheless, be urgent. For example, in 2007 my constituency was badly flooded, as was much of Gloucestershire, and we benefited significantly from European emergency funds. If, during any future emergency in a part of Europe which technically fell outside the fund’s scope, a treaty amendment were technically required, it would surely be uncontroversial and, in fact, very urgent, so would we seriously say to whichever stricken part of Europe was affected, “Fine, we’ll send aid from the European emergency funds, but we’ll just have to hold a referendum on it first”? That would be inconceivable. My example may be hypothetical, but it is not impossible to conceive of equally uncontroversial and desirable things that the referendum proposal might block completely.
Given the conclusions of the Lords Committee’s report on referendums, can the Minister reassure me that the provisions in clauses 3 and 4 will not produce a plethora of complex and costly referendums that exasperate the public, frustrate proper decision making at European level and are highly vulnerable to hijack by questions that are completely different from those on the ballot paper? Does he agree that the most appropriate democratic check on the use of article 48(6) is primary legislation, as it would give Parliament alone, as the representative of the people, the power to ratify those limited, specific and complex treaty changes that are likely to come under the use of that article?
On the complexity of the referendums that the Bill could produce, can the Minister provide the House with some examples of referendum questions that the referendum lock on SRP treaty changes might create? It is quite difficult to conceive of one so significant that it would justify the use of a national referendum. Can the Minister provide the House with an estimate either of the number of referendums that the Bill is likely to produce in the foreseeable future, or, if that means looking too far into the crystal ball, of the number of SRP changes that are currently in discussion at the European Council or expected to be in the near future? Most significantly in these austere times, can he indicate the expected cost of each referendum on current projections?
The Minister will be aware that the purpose of creating the SRP under the Lisbon treaty was to avoid the need for long drawn-out intergovernmental conferences and painful ratification processes in instances where EU member states wished to undertake targeted and limited treaty changes, particularly uncontentious improvements or enhancements to the workings of the EU for the benefit of all member states. I therefore have concerns over the inflexibility of the referendum lock, and what it will mean in practice. Will the Minister reassure me that the threat or fear of losing a referendum on a treaty change will not prevent future Governments from supporting even uncontroversial and popular changes, and changes that are in the UK’s national interest?
I point out to the Committee that on many occasions in the history of the UK’s membership of the European Union, it has been deemed in the UK’s interest to further pool powers and competence in the European Union. The most obvious example, which should be close to Conservative hearts, is the Single European Act, which was a massive shift away from unanimity voting and towards dropping national vetoes. The European Union was able to dramatically accelerate integration across the internal market—the basic economic rationale that I thought was shared across the coalition Benches. The forward-thinking move to pool and share powers and competence has been of huge economic benefit to the UK and the European Union as a whole. Can the Minister not think of potential instances in the future when further pooling of powers and sovereignty would be dramatically to the UK’s benefit?
In the light of the time and the desire for other Members to take part, I will cut short my planned remarks. In asking the Minister to consider amendments 67 and 68, I suggest that there is a risk of the Bill triggering, on a hair trigger, referendums on every conceivable issue. Liberal Democrat Members, who perhaps do not share some of the fears of those on the Conservative Benches, need considerable reassurance on that issue.