Northern Ireland

Debate between Stephen Farry and Steve Baker

Monday 26th February 2024 Commons Chamber

[Mr Baker]

Strand 1 is of course a matter for the United Kingdom, and while Northern Ireland is within the United Kingdom, everyone would expect us to make Northern Ireland work within the UK. Although there is no provision for direct rule, I gently point out to the hon. Gentleman that we went to some lengths, and at some cost, not to return to direct rule at this time. We have allowed events to evolve as they have precisely because we did not wish to return to direct rule. We are extremely grateful that there is a returned Executive in Northern Ireland, but we have a responsibility to all citizens of Northern Ireland to ensure that they are governed effectively. That is why we have put in place the arrangements that we made, and I for one am grateful that we did not have to go any further.

[Stephen Farry (North Down) (Alliance)]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Baker]

Oh my word: we are going to have a general debate on the Belfast/Good Friday agreement.

[Stephen Farry]

I am grateful to the Minister. His remark about ensuring that this works for all our citizens has sparked me to life. Will he set out the Government’s approach to reform of the institutions? As he knows, the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee produced a comprehensive report on the issue, which to date the Government have simply said that they “note”. There is still a risk that the institutions will collapse, and the same reasons that allowed them to collapse in the past are still there. Hopefully they will not collapse, but that is the danger. Will he assure us that he and his colleagues will work closely with the Irish Government and the parties in Northern Ireland to ensure a proper examination of the rules on the institutions, to ensure that we do not end up in the same mess that we have had twice over the past seven years?

[Mr Baker]

I am most grateful—although after this I will plunge further into my speech, because I want to conclude it. Our position is very clear that any change must come from the parties in Northern Ireland. That is not to say we are uninterested—I have personally been through an exercise of considering all the possible reforms that there could be. At the end of that lengthy exercise, I concluded that no plan for reform of the institutions and their operation would work if it was driven by yours truly. It is essential that this conversation comes from the parties in Northern Ireland. I do not doubt that we will wish to note and take interest in such a conversation, but it is for the hon. Gentleman and his colleagues, who are well represented on the opposition Benches, to move such a conversation forward. That is not something that the UK Government will be driving forward. It is vital that the new Executive now have the space to get on with governing Northern Ireland and doing what is very much needed.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Stephen Farry and Steve Baker

Wednesday 22nd November 2023 Commons Chamber

[Mr Baker]

I agree with the right hon. Gentleman that a review is needed. I believe that it is possible for the Northern Ireland civil service to get on with that work under the powers that we have given it. If it transpires that that is not the case, I will write to him and put a copy of the letter in the Library. He is right—the insights he provides are wise and necessary—that we all want to work together to see a restored Executive, because it is for Northern Ireland Ministers to work with their Department for Infrastructure to deal with such matters.

[Stephen Farry (North Down) (Alliance)]

8. What assessment the Government have made of the potential merits of introducing a fiscal floor for Northern Ireland.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Stephen Farry and Steve Baker

Wednesday 6th September 2023 Commons Chamber

[Mr Baker]

One of our priorities now is the successful implementation of the Windsor framework and that green channel. We will continue to have conversations with colleagues in the Cabinet Office who lead the Windsor framework taskforce. I assure my hon. Friend that we are determined to ensure that that system works as seamlessly for everyone.

[Stephen Farry (North Down) (Alliance)]

Will the Minister confirm that at next week’s investment conference the Government will proactively market Northern Ireland’s dual market access under the Windsor framework?

[Mr Baker]

Yes, I can confirm that. I am absolutely determined that we shall do so. Indeed, next week I shall chair a session on that issue. This is not just about access as of right to the UK market and as a privilege to the EU market; it is also about being under our services regulation, which is an advantage, in combination with access to our free trade agreements, such as the comprehensive and progressive agreement for trans-Pacific partnership. This is a unique opportunity in all of the world, including right across the EU, and I am convinced that he and I, and we all, should make the most of it.

Northern Ireland Budget (No. 2) Bill

Debate between Stephen Farry and Steve Baker

Committee of the whole House
Monday 4th September 2023 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Farry (North Down) (Alliance)]

At the outset, may I join in paying tribute to the outgoing shadow Secretary of State, the hon. Member for Hove (Peter Kyle), and in welcoming to his new role the right hon. Member for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn)? We are going to miss him on the UK Trade and Business Commission, on which he has had a very keen interest in recent years in Northern Ireland and the fallout on it from Brexit, which has had major ripple effects through our politics—not least, as we can hear this evening, on the subject of this debate.

It is six weeks on from Second Reading and it is fair to say that the situation in our politics has not improved. There is no sign of any return to devolution; indeed, the response from the right hon. Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson) to the Minister of State illustrates the lack of realism about the choices that face us collectively in Northern Ireland, and the choices that face Unionism in ensuring that Northern Ireland works for everyone. That is in everyone’s interest, not least the interest of Unionists.

With the public finances, I would argue that the situation is indeed much worse than it was six weeks ago, because the Northern Ireland budget is on an unsustainable trajectory. The budget that was set, as others have said, was not sufficient—it was inadequate—but there is a second layer to this, because the guidance to civil servants in the Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2022 does not allow them to take the decisions necessary to live within the measly budget that has been granted.

As the hon. Member for Belfast East (Gavin Robinson) has said, we already have a situation where it is projected that Northern Ireland will overspend by at least £500 million, which is greater than the overspend from the last financial year. That is more than £500 million of public pay pressures before Northern Ireland can even have parity with the settlements that have taken place elsewhere in the United Kingdom. Something is going to have to give. Either an Executive come in with a financial package and can begin to address some of those pressures, or the Government are essentially going to take it on the chin and accept that Northern Ireland will overspend.

That begs the question of what will happen with that overspend in future years. Will it be an albatross around our neck for years to come? Will people be expected to make cuts, or will the Government make cuts in-year to try to balance the budget? I would suggest that trying to do that in-year is now impossible, not least because so much of our budget is linked to salaries. We would lose people, and even if we did we would have to have redundancy payments for them. The only way anyone could possibly balance the budget at this stage is through stopping services completely, which is utterly inconceivable and untenable.

The point has been made that the budget situation is bad and will always be bad, and that having an Executive does not make any difference in that regard. I am not suggesting for one minute that a restored Executive will be a silver bullet, but I suggest to my colleagues who perhaps are dismissing the relevance of devolution at this point that every single stakeholder, when they are asked to comment on the budget crisis, stands up and says, “We want to see an Executive in place.” Whether we are talking about healthcare professionals or people who work in the education sector, the business community or the voluntary community sector, all of them are saying with one voice, “While it is no magic solution, we do want to see the Executive back in place.”

That reference to a restored Executive leads me on neatly to the point I really want to stress regarding a financial package: we need to see a twin-pronged approach to addressing Northern Ireland’s financial needs. Of course we need to address the lack of financial parity and the fact that Northern Ireland is not funded based on need. There is a structural problem of underfunding there, so things are not more generous in Northern Ireland than elsewhere.

I want to pick up on the comments made by the Secretary of State at the weekend to the British-Irish Association in Oxford. The conference is held under Chatham House rules, but I want to comment on what is in the public domain, as released by the Northern Ireland Office itself. In that speech, the Secretary of State was very negative about the concept of a financial package. He talked about money being thrown at Northern Ireland and Executives having squandered financial packages in the past—and there might be an element of truth to that. He said that the Executive need to stand on their own two feet—and, again, that is a worthy aspiration. But I stress that the notion that Northern Ireland can run a balanced budget, invest in public services and drive the economy from a burning platform will never happen. We will see more cuts flowing from budget cuts, and we will end up with decline and more decline. We will end up in a downward spiral in which Northern Ireland becomes ever more dependent, and we will see activity stop and more and more young people leave. That is not the future that I hear the Government articulating in their vision for a prosperous society in Northern Ireland, but what they are doing in terms of the budget belies their very worthy aspiration.

I ask the Minister of State or the Secretary of State to clarify in winding up that something will potentially be on offer when we seek a financial package. I appreciate that that is something that the Government may wish to do solely in the context of a restored Executive rather than up front, but it is important for any financial package to be based around transformation, a proper strategic plan and a programme for government for a restored Executive. That Executive must have clear targets and milestones, and a very clear idea as to how investment can turn Northern Ireland around. That is something on which a restored Executive can work in partnership.

[Mr Steve Baker]

The hon. Gentleman has just hit the nail on the head: a restored Executive could work in partnership with the Government. But I just emphasise to him that the sum available in this budget is the same as would have been provided were an Executive in place. Just to take further his point about reform and so on, he will know that since 2014, we have put £7 billion into Northern Ireland on top of the block grant. Various commitments to reform have been given in different agreements over the years on various fronts, including education, but it has not happened. I think we are all now getting to a point where we are terribly frustrated on all those fronts. He has hit the nail on the head: we need a restored Executive and then to work in a positive way together to make Northern Ireland function for its people, and that is what we are very willing to do.

[Stephen Farry]

I am very grateful to the Minister of State for his comments. I largely agree with him, but I will point to a certain disagreement on some aspects. I fully recognise that there have been past financial packages and problems with reform not being fully realised, particularly around integrated education, which is a clear example. We have to do better in that respect. From where we are, I do not see any alternative to trying to do that once again and learning the lessons from what happened in the past. I recognise that we have seen additional funding packages from the UK Government—obviously, we had a major uplift in support to deal with covid and its side effects on the economy, and that support was very welcome—but the fact is, as other Members have said, that our expenditure per head is not based on our need, and that fundamental point has to be recognised.

Northern Ireland Budget (No. 2) Bill

Debate between Stephen Farry and Steve Baker

2nd reading
Monday 10th July 2023 Commons Chamber

[The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Steve Baker)]

I am likewise most grateful to hon. and right hon. Members for their contributions this evening. I am most grateful, too, that the House again recognises that a Bill such as this is a responsible, but regrettable, step that we need to take as the UK Government to ensure that the delivery of public services can continue in Northern Ireland.

There are no easy decisions in the budget for anyone—not for us as the UK Government, not for Northern Ireland civil servants and not for a future Executive. We recognise that and we know that those decisions will not be going anywhere when an Executive returns.

It has become apparent to me that I and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State may have been misunderstood on this point, so I want to be perfectly clear: on their return, an Executive will face this stark budget and the difficult decisions that follow from it. But we are also perfectly clear that the right people to be taking those tough decisions are locally elected Northern Ireland Executive Ministers. It should not be the UK Government or civil servants plugging the decision-making gap. It is only through the return of Ministers in Northern Ireland that the vital reforms that so many hon. Members have referred to can begin to take place to put public services on a much more effective, efficient and sustainable basis, fit for the demands and opportunities, and indeed the previous advancements in technology, particularly in medicine, of the 21st century.

Let no one mistake what is needed: reform to the health system, to make the most of decades of improvements in healthcare through specialisation; reform to drive down the waste that comes from a divided education system, perpetuating divisions that would be unlawful once children moved from education into work; and reform to foreshorten the shocking delays in Northern Ireland’s justice system and its appalling cost to taxpayers at turn after turn. Only through reforms and more will the public have the services they need and deserve.

What is the prize? In this debate, if I may say so, we have heard two competing visions for Northern Ireland: a vision of Northern Ireland standing with its hand out to the Republic of Ireland for subsidy, and a vision of Northern Ireland standing with its hand out to Great Britain for subsidy. This Government have a better vision than that. We have a vision for a strong and confident Northern Ireland standing on its own two feet, with a balanced budget, underpinning sound public services that have been reformed and are effective, and—yes—are properly audited.

We want to focus on the great, rich tradition and heritage of Northern Ireland’s industrial spirit, on the great commerce of Northern Ireland and on Belfast, one of the great industrial cities of this great United Kingdom. We want private capital flooding into Northern Ireland. We know that the great people of Northern Ireland are entrepreneurs who care about place and community. We know that there is goodwill all around this world for people to invest in Northern Ireland, but they are put off investing by the absence of an Executive.

[Stephen Farry]

I very much share the vision that the Minister is setting out, but, leaving aside the language around handouts and subsidies, will he at least recognise that to get from A to B the restored Executive will need a partnership with the UK Government to ensure that we can take forward those reforms?

[Mr Baker]

The hon. Gentleman makes a good point, and I shall come on to it in a moment, but I want there to be no mistake about this, either: as far as I can see from my vantage point, there is a pretty close correlation between poverty and paramilitarism in Northern Ireland. Leaving a primary school surrounded by razor wire in Shankill, I was struck by some of the murals I saw in that housing estate, commemorating and celebrating people who ought not to be celebrated. If I go to other areas of Belfast and elsewhere, there will be murals celebrating the other side.

It is time for Northern Ireland to be moving on. It is time to lift people out of poverty so that they have a better hope than the commemoration of a past that should never have taken place. No more looking back to a past that never was; it is time to look forward to a better future, founded on prosperity and sound public finances. Call me old school, Mr Speaker, but I like a balanced budget. Let us move forward.

Capital investment for a safe return from investors around the world, the rule of law, good government—the conditions are set. We have an entrepreneurial population, great skills, comparative advantage in financial services, cyber-security, advanced manufacturing and more. Crucially, we also have an institutional arrangement that, if people would only see it, is unique in all of the world: access to the UK as of right and to the EU as a privilege, UK services law and access to the UK’s free trade agreements. That is a unique set of institutional arrangements to promote Northern Ireland’s prosperity for the long run and deliver just the transformation that is needed.

It is true, as hon. Members have indicated in relation to the Windsor framework, that that comes at the price of a difficult compromise, with some EU law still in place. I confess it is a difficult compromise for me, as I have said in the past. However, we have to choose from available futures. At the moment, Northern Ireland’s future looks bleak indeed unless we get behind the reforms that are needed to balance the budget for the long run. I believe that if we do that, if we come together in unity for our good purposes for Northern Ireland, we can achieve great things.

On the quantum that is available, the hon. Members for Foyle (Colum Eastwood) and for Belfast East (Gavin Robinson) seem to be united in the idea that the budget is some sort of punishment. The hon. Member for Foyle suggested it was a tactic. I say to him that that is categorically not true. This spending envelope is the spending envelope that the Northern Ireland Executive would have faced had they not collapsed. It is not the case that we would be punishing people in the way that has been set out. To listen to the debate—

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Stephen Farry and Steve Baker

Wednesday 21st June 2023 Commons Chamber

[Mr Baker]

My hon. Friend is right, and that is the Government’s policy. We have engaged closely with not only the tourism sector but our friends in the Irish Government on this issue. I hope that we will be able to work together to ensure that there is a consistent and coherent communication strategy to ensure that tourists know they must register for an ETA and must continue to comply with the UK’s immigration requirements. I should say that whether one stays at Hillsborough castle, the Travelodge or any of the other great hotels in Northern Ireland, it is a wonderful place to visit.

[Stephen Farry (North Down) (Alliance)]

Does the Minister recognise that Ireland is marketed internationally as a single entity with respect to tourism? Does he understand that treating movements on the island of Ireland the same as any entries into the UK from the rest of the world is not fair and does not recognise the specific circumstances that exist on the island?

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Stephen Farry and Steve Baker

Wednesday 22nd March 2023 Commons Chamber

[Mr Baker]

I agree strongly with my hon. Friend. The reality is that the Windsor framework is a dramatic improvement on the protocol. I do not think that anyone can reasonably argue otherwise. Of course, it includes compromises. Neither I, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State nor the Prime Minister is suggesting that it does not. The question that everyone needs to answer is whether this is a step forward for Northern Ireland. I am absolutely sure that it is, and I agree with my hon. Friend.

[Stephen Farry (North Down) (Alliance)]

Tourism spending is also very important. The Minister will be aware that the Northern Ireland Tourism Alliance is very concerned about the application of the forthcoming electronic travel authorisation to the sector in Northern Ireland, given our unique marketing and unique offer. Will the Minister work with the Home Office to try to find a practical solution to that problem?

[Mr Baker]

I am well aware of the case the hon. Gentleman makes. Of course, we are in conversation with Home Office colleagues. The Government’s position is that we are determined to make sure that tourists understand that they will need to comply with UK immigration requirements to visit the UK, and that means that they will need that travel authorisation to go to Northern Ireland. I am aware of the concerns of tourism authorities north and south, and indeed the concerns of the Irish Government. We continue to take those seriously as we talk with the Home Office.

Northern Ireland Budget Bill

Debate between Stephen Farry and Steve Baker

2nd reading
Monday 23rd January 2023 Commons Chamber

[Mr Baker]

The Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2022, which we put through, gives civil servants the clarity they need to make certain decisions. We have put those officials in a difficult position to take those decisions, and I put on record now, since the hon. Gentleman gives me the opportunity, my thanks to them for rising to the challenge and bearing with this difficult situation. I am grateful indeed that permanent secretaries and others are rising to the challenge of taking the decisions that need to be made, but it is obviously not desirable that we should be in this position. Ministers should be in post in Northern Ireland doing what needs to be done.

If the Executive are restored in time to set a Budget for next year, the UK Government will of course continue to work constructively with Executive Ministers on a sustainable Budget that delivers for the people of Northern Ireland and supports economic growth.

[Stephen Farry (North Down) (Alliance)]

Will the Minister give way?

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Baker]

I will, but I will then be determined to make progress.

[Stephen Farry]

I thank the Minister for giving way. He will appreciate that in other circumstances the Executive would normally now be considering the Budget for the coming financial year and that it is important to have certainty ahead of the start of a financial year so that decisions can be made, particularly in tough times. If the Executive are not restored very soon, in order to give some degree of certainty to Departments and related agencies, can the Minister give an assurance that the Government will act in the near future to put in place a framework not just for this year’s Budget legislation but for next year’s?

[Mr Baker]

I expect the hon. Gentleman knows that clauses 8 and 9 put in place a vote on account for next year. I will come to that as it is in my notes; if memory serves it covers 65% of the spending, but I will confirm that when I reach that section. That puts in place the spending for next year, but of course we would like the Executive to return to set the Budget for next year. If they do not return, we will have to do the job, and it will be tricky; there is no getting away from that. Without Northern Ireland Executive Ministers in place, it has not been possible to take the difficult political decisions necessary to balance the Budget at this very late stage in the year, and that of course compounds the problem for next year. It is with great sobriety that I stand here and acknowledge that it is going to be very difficult. I for one would be up for the challenge of doing it, but it is not the Government’s position that we as UK Government Ministers do that; we would like the Northern Ireland parties to step up to that duty.

If the Executive are not restored on time, we will continue to work with the Northern Ireland civil service to prepare for next year’s Budget. The Government’s priority for that Budget will be to deliver a fair outcome for all taxpayers and citizens in Northern Ireland. We will work to put Northern Ireland’s finances on a sustainable long-term footing, which means appropriate consideration of a wide range of options including revenue-raising measures, as well as reviewing all spending.

Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Bill

Debate between Stephen Farry and Steve Baker

Committee stage
Tuesday 29th November 2022 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Farry]

Members will be pleased to know that I will be extremely brief. I will touch on a few points.

First, I will not repeat the arguments for amendment 10 given that I mentioned them on Second Reading, but I invite the Secretary of State or the Minister to respond to the substance of it when they wind up. I hope they will reflect on what I and the shadow Secretary of State, the hon. Member for Hove (Peter Kyle) have said about not boxing themselves in for what lies ahead.

Beyond that, I stress that there is a need for some degree of ad hoc scrutiny in what happens over the coming weeks and months. With respect to my DUP colleagues, amendment 13, taken literally, is somewhat onerous, but there is also an elephant in the room: our best means to scrutinise decision making in Northern Ireland is to have a fully functioning Assembly.

[Mr Baker]

First, I thank Members opposite for being constructive in dealing with Northern Ireland issues while also holding us to account. They are holding us to account on new clause 6 in particular, and have asked us to provide reports. We propose instead to make statements to Parliament, including oral statements. Those Members know that they are very welcome to be in touch with us with suggestions. Clearly, we do not want to be in here every day—nor would we need to be—but we would wish to make statements so that Parliament is properly informed. The Secretary of State and I are fully committed to working constructively with the House.

Turning to amendment 10 on indefinite extension, it is not the intention of the legislation to create indefinite or undefined extensions to the Executive formation period. We are deeply aware that the previous political impasse dragged on for three years, and we cannot allow that to happen again.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Baker]

I wholeheartedly agree with my right hon. Friend. Getting that deal will require us, as we have said several times, to respect the legitimate interests of our negotiating partners while also delivering on the legitimate interests of Unionists. I am extremely grateful to him for his support.

[Stephen Farry]

I want to press the Minister on that point. I fully accept his point that the legislation being open-ended is not desirable in any sense, but, equally, we are seven weeks away from the 18 January deadline. If he is genuinely telling us that he believes we will have a full outcome in that period, that is great, but surely he recognises that that may not be the case and that it would be best not to box himself in entirely.

[Mr Baker]

I certainly recognise that we may not reach a deal, and that is why the Northern Ireland Protocol Bill continues its passage in the other place, but the reality is that we cannot allow ourselves to drag on with indefinite extension. The people of Northern Ireland deserve good government, and that is why the legislation is drafted to create a short, straightforward and defined extension to the period for Executive formation. I very much hope that we will conclude an agreement, reform the institutions and then move forward.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Stephen Farry and Steve Baker

Wednesday 9th November 2022 Commons Chamber

[Mr Baker]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right that Northern Ireland boasts some of the UK’s most innovative businesses and is a fantastically attractive place to invest. An increasing number of organisations in Northern Ireland report on environmental, social and governance standards. I regularly visit businesses in Northern Ireland, as does the Secretary of State. We will continue to take an interest in their approach to ESG.

[Stephen Farry (North Down) (Alliance)]

What businesses in Northern Ireland want, alongside political stability, is dual market access. As well as working to ensure that businesses have access to the rest of the UK market, will the Minister ensure that access to the European market will be preserved and that the Government will do nothing to compromise it?

[Mr Baker]

We are committed to maintaining dual market access. We hope to negotiate a position with the European Union in which that is possible, while preserving the east-west strand of the Belfast/Good Friday agreement. We want to restore the constitutional status of Northern Ireland while ensuring that market access; I very much hope that we will do so by negotiation.