Finance Bill

Stephen Doughty Excerpts

Monday 1st July 2013 Commons Chamber

[Sheila Gilmore]

And Scottish farmers, I am sure, and so on.

A mansion tax—I think my colleagues on the Front Benches would agree—is about residential property, not business property, which is already taxed in various ways. Obviously, a whole raft of taxes are appropriate for businesses, and that would be the best way to deal with the issue, rather than a mansion tax. If a mansion tax is a way of ensuring that we can appropriately tax wealth, we should consider it very seriously, given that it is probably a better basis for taxation than income, which people can move around—I have yet to see a house be dragged offshore. That may not be impossible, but in this country we generally do not put houses on wheels and move them, unlike in the United States—at least, so we see in the movies. A mansion tax would be a way to help the low-paid, through the introduction of the 10p rate.

[Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op)]

My hon. Friend has made a strong speech so far, but is she—as I am—completely bemused by the position of the Liberal Democrats? In February, the Deputy Prime Minister said:

“My approach is simple: taxes on mansions; tax cuts for millions.”

It is more like no taxes on mansions and tax cuts for millionaires.

[Sheila Gilmore]

I suspect that that policy got lost in the negotiations that are part of a coalition. I have also heard the Deputy Prime Minister say that he would flex his muscles on all kinds of issues, the most recent being the number of children that could be cared for. The Deputy Prime Minister was keen to tell the country that he had flexed his party’s muscles and prevented that change from being introduced, but he has not flexed them on the mansion tax. Either it is possible for the junior partner in the coalition to flex its muscles successfully or it is not. There are other areas in which the Liberal Democrats have seemingly not thought it necessary to use the muscle they claim to have.

In relation to the mansion tax we will doubtless hear a lot about income-poor people—how will they be able to afford it? Would we expect them to sell their homes or move elsewhere? We cannot have that debate, however, without talking about the bedroom tax. A constituent of mine is 59 and has recently been made redundant. She is looking for work, but with a retirement age of 63 she will not easily find another job. She has been living in her home for 18 years, but it has a relatively small single second bedroom. The kitchen opens off the living room, which militates against taking in a lodger—one of the things people have been advised to do. Her current income is less than £72 a week. From that, she is paying £14 towards her rent as a result of the bedroom tax. That is a significant proportion of her income.

My constituent does not want to leave her home, as she has put a lot of effort into it and she lived there with her husband until she was widowed about four years ago. She has looked into the possibility of moving, but there is a shortage of one-bedroom homes in the city. Two weeks ago, 23 one-bedroom homes were advertised—the total from all the social landlords in the city, the housing associations and the council. Those homes attracted varying numbers of applications, but the lowest was 45 and the highest was 370. Four had more than 200, and another seven had between 100 and 200. My constituent’s prospects of being rehoused are, therefore, not great. Our city also has a large number of people waiting for this kind of housing who are living in expensive private rented housing or temporary accommodation that costs far more in housing benefit than the rent being charged to my constituent.

People like my constituent are being asked to make some serious sacrifices, and they do not have an easy choice. It is not easy to downsize, because there is nowhere to downsize to—

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Gauke]

The reasoning remains what it always was. HMRC has a large number of specialists on the UK tax system, and the UK tax system does not apply in other countries. Assessing whether a particular arrangement constituted tax avoidance in Tanzania, to pluck a country at random, would require a detailed understanding of the Tanzanian tax system. If the hon. Lady is asking whether we could train up somebody to learn an awful lot about the Tanzanian tax system, in theory that could be done, but it would be a better use of HMRC resources to help train the Tanzanian tax authority, so that it was in a better position to collect the taxes that are due. Indeed, that is exactly what we do; we provide a lot of support to the Tanzanian tax authority.

[Stephen Doughty]

The Minister will recall our debates on this issue in Committee. I am afraid that I still do not buy the arguments that he makes, just as I did not buy them then. Does he not understand the disappointment felt by the many campaigners on this issue? The Enough Food for Everyone If campaign said that Treasury Ministers’ refusal to consider the amendments put forward in Committee, which are very similar to new clause 12, was shocking. There is a real contrast between the Prime Minister’s big words at the G8 and what is happening in practice. This is a reasonable new clause, and campaigners just do not buy the arguments.

[Mr Gauke]

It is not just me saying this, and there is no desire to be unhelpful. Indeed, the Government’s record on building up tax capacity in developing countries is very good, with regard to providing them with technical assistance so that they gain a better understanding of the tax that they could collect. Indeed, we are providing support to help developing countries to make greater use of the new information exchange positions.

I will again quote Richard Murphy, whose views on these matters tend to differ profoundly from mine. He works closely with the non-governmental organisations, and he has said:

“I admit, I have never seen how extending DOTAS internationally could work. I can’t see how HMRC could know if they got accurate data, or none at all and as such can see no way such a scheme could be enforced in which case I admit I can’t see how it could ever be workable.”

I do not often pray in aid Richard Murphy, but he makes that point not from any desire to limit the help that we provide to developing countries but as a matter of sheer practicality. He makes a reasonable point.

--- Later in debate ---

[Catherine McKinnell]

My hon. Friend makes a good point. The Government have trumpeted their commitment to 0.7% of GDP being spent on international aid, but they stand by and say that they can do little to assist in ensuring that that is not swallowed up by the three times more that is lost in tax avoidance every year. If they could assist, that would be a win-win situation for developing countries and the UK.

In new clause 12, we call for additional transparency in what the Exchequer Secretary admitted are four fairly reasonable requests. Those requests are well considered and are made in all sincerity. We want to be able to bring in additional tax receipts for the UK Treasury, but we also want to use our powers and information, and the additional intelligence that we would gain from transparency, not only to benefit the lives of UK citizens, for whom public resources could be funded through the tax receipts, but to support developing countries.

My hon. Friend makes the point that it is a win-win situation, and we very much agree. That is why we urge hon. Members to support our new clause. As I have said, it is completely reasonable and I cannot see why Government Members would oppose it, particularly Liberal Democrat Members—I am pleased that the hon. Member for Burnley (Gordon Birtwistle) is in the Chamber to hear this debate on an issue that I know the Liberal Democrats feel strongly about. Indeed, at their recent party conference they held a debate in support of some of the measures we are proposing. I therefore see no reason why Liberal Democrat Members will not vote with the Opposition in the Lobby this evening.

[Stephen Doughty]

My hon. Friend has been making strong points. Does she agree that in a way this debate exemplifies the difference between settling for charity and seeking justice on some of these issues? I would not say that the Government are not charitable. They continue to give aid; we continue to give aid—that is charity and people on both sides of the House do charitable work. However, when it comes to achieving justice on these issues, and getting a grip of the problems and understanding why they are there in the first place, we often find the Government wanting.

[Catherine McKinnell]

My hon. Friend makes the important point that we are talking about justice. We talk about justice and fairness in relation to developing countries when considering how a disclosure of a tax avoidance scheme, and the information we receive from it, might be used to support developing countries and international justice on that level. However, it is also about justice for UK taxpayers. We must ensure that companies that engage in the sort of tax avoidance activities that so rile members of the public, and should concern every Member of the House, do not have a competitive advantage over companies that do not engage in such activities, which may mean that their business ends up suffering.

That is what we are discussing and the amendments should not be just a step in the right direction. The announcements that came out of Lough Erne and the G8 agreement contained warm words and welcome sentiments, but there is an opportunity for the Government to start walking the walk, not just talking the talk. They must make not only warm statements but legislative changes that will move the issue forward and show the leadership that the UK should be showing. That would give us greater leverage when debating such matters on an international scale.

The Prime Minister rightly put tackling tax avoidance and evasion at the top of the G8 agenda, and Government Members now have the opportunity to demonstrate their commitment to delivering in that area. What came out of the G8 does not have to remain a statement of intent; it could become a reality for the UK today. We believe that our amendments would help the UK to take genuine action towards securing tax transparency and the fairness the world needs in the 21st century. I therefore urge all Members on both sides of the House to back our suggestions for how the Government can put their money where their mouth is on this issue.