NHS Commissioning Board

Stephen Dorrell Excerpts

Tuesday 5th March 2013 Commons Chamber

[Norman Lamb]

I sense that the right hon. Gentleman’s speech was written before he heard what I had to say. If he had listened to it, he would know that we recognise concerns about the drafting and whether it absolutely meets the commitments already made. We want to be certain that the commitments made in this place during the passage of the Bill are met. Indeed, when the Secretary of State wrote to clinical commissioning groups in 2012, he made it absolutely clear that those groups would not be forced to go out to tender. We will make sure that that is met. [Interruption.] If Opposition Members had simply listened to what I said, they would have avoided coming up with a set of questions that completely ignored my points.

The right hon. Gentleman referred to the question of quality of care. From my point of view, poor care should be condemned wherever it happens, and he needs to remember that the scandal of Mid Staffordshire hospital happened under his and his party’s watch. The poor quality of care uncovered in that NHS hospital is completely unacceptable—just as unacceptable as poor quality care from any private provider at all. Let us be clear about that.

There will be no privatisation of the NHS under this Government. Furthermore, there will be no special favours for the private sector, which were provided under the right hon. Gentleman’s Government. It was his Government who gave £250 million to private providers of independent sector treatment centres—whether or not they delivered care. There will be no special favours under this Government’s new rules. No clinical commissioning group will be forced into competitive tender. The rules will be absolutely clear, and we shall publish the amended regulations shortly.

[Mr Stephen Dorrell (Charnwood) (Con)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that the effect of his response to the urgent question this afternoon is to say that this Government are pursuing precisely the same policy as their predecessor on competition for the provision of NHS services? Does he further agree that that demonstrates that the cloud of rhetoric surrounding the passage of the Health and Social Care Act 2012 was so much hot air?

[Norman Lamb]

I absolutely agree with my right hon. Friend. There has been a lot of cant and hypocrisy in this debate. The guidance given by the previous Government to primary care trusts in 2010 makes absolutely clear their commitment to competition. That shows how crazy this debate has become. We will ensure that the debate is balanced and that the interest of the patient trumps everything else, as it should.

Oral Answers to Questions

Stephen Dorrell Excerpts

Tuesday 26th February 2013 Commons Chamber

[Norman Lamb]

I should be happy to meet the hon. Lady and members of the association to discuss those concerns further.

[Mr Stephen Dorrell (Charnwood) (Con)]

There is currently much talk about the importance of integrated services. Can my hon. Friend assure us that when commissioning primary care, the NHS Commissioning Board will emphasise the importance of integrating it with the other community health services supplied by the NHS, and that social care will be included in that fully integrated service?

[Norman Lamb]

I am happy to give my right hon. Friend an absolute assurance to that effect. The Department and I are working closely and collaboratively with both the Commissioning Board and the Local Government Association to ensure that we deliver integrated care, which is much the best way of keeping patients out of hospital and maintaining their condition.

Social Care Funding

Stephen Dorrell Excerpts

Monday 11th February 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hunt]

Really! The right hon. Gentleman talked about a flawed prospectus, but what we had from the Labour Government during their 13 years in power was no prospectus whatever. This was in Labour’s manifesto in 1997, then the Government had a royal commission in 1999. There was a Green Paper in 2005, followed by the Wanless review in 2006. The problem was going to be solved in the comprehensive spending review of 2007, but then we had another Green Paper in 2009. Let us compare that with a coalition that commissioned a report the moment it came into office, said after a year that it accepted the principles of the report, and has now, just two years later, announced how it will implement it and pay for that implementation.

Let me go through some of the things that the shadow Secretary of State has said. He quoted one stakeholder, Stephen Burke, but let us look at what some of the others have been saying. The Joseph Rowntree Foundation has said that

“the cap and threshold are welcome measures, and a welcome sign that the government is taking responsibility for addressing care funding.”

Andrew Dilnot said today:

“I recognise the public finances are in a pretty tricky state and it doesn’t seem to me that”—

what the Government are proposing is—

“so different from what we wanted”.

Or we could talk about Age UK, which says it

“has always supported the principle of a cap”

and welcomes the fact that we are increasing what it describes as

“the current miserly upper means test threshold”.

A lot of stakeholders welcome today’s announcement, but recognise that we are in extremely difficult financial circumstances and that that is why we have to be responsible with public finances.

The right hon. Gentleman talked about the cap of £75,000, which is indeed higher than the upper limit proposed by Andrew Dilnot, but to describe this as only helping people on higher incomes is fundamentally to misunderstand how a cap works. First, potentially more than 70% of the £1 billion a year that this will cost the Government by the end of the next Parliament is going to socially disadvantaged families. This is a highly progressive measure, and as well as increasing the cap we are increasing the threshold above which people do not get any help, from £23,000 to £123,000—exactly the kind of thing that some of the most disadvantaged families on the lowest of incomes will benefit from most.

The right hon. Gentleman talks about the Association of British Insurers—he needs to get up to date. It describes this as

“potentially another positive step forward in tackling the challenges of an ageing society.”

[Interruption.] If he wants some more quotes, let us look at what financial services companies are saying. Aegon UK says it

“welcomes today’s announcement and the clarity it brings on state support.”

Legal & General says it is

“pleased the Government has decided to move forward with Andrew Dilnot’s proposals.”

As for local authority budgets—the shocking state of which, by the way, we inherited from the last Labour Government—the Government said in the spending review that the NHS health budget would give £7.2 billion of support for health-related needs to local authorities during the course of this Parliament.

On inheritance tax, what the right hon. Gentleman does not understand about today’s measures is that fundamentally, they are helping people to protect their inheritance from the lottery of social care costs. The randomness of someone not knowing whether they will be the one in 10 who suffers over £100,000 in care costs is eliminated by a proposal that allows everyone to plan and prepare for their own social care costs.

The right hon. Gentleman describes this as a modest plan and says we have neglected the scale of the problem. Of course, in dealing with an ageing population many other issues need to be dealt with. He talked about the problem of integration, which we are solving by devolving power to clinical commissioning groups on the front line, a reform that Labour opposed, and by integrating technology, a reform on which Labour failed. Also, Labour did nothing about dementia, leaving us with less than half the people with dementia being diagnosed. We are now tackling that problem. We saw last week the issues of treating older people with dignity and respect. We are tackling that problem—Labour left it for far too long.

The problem is not that our solution is too small, but that it was too big for Labour to solve when they were in office. When it comes to making Britain a better country to grow old in, this Government are taking action where the last Government failed.

[Mr Stephen Dorrell (Charnwood) (Con)]

Does my right hon. Friend agree with the view expressed by Tony Blair to the Labour party conference in 1997 that it should be a priority for the British Government to sort out the unfairness that prevails in our system of care for the elderly? Does he further agree with me that when our right hon. Friend the Leader of the House was Health Secretary, he set up the Dilnot commission within weeks of this Government taking office, and that the package my right hon. Friend has announced today was described today by Andrew Dilnot as being not so different from the one recommended by the commission set up by our right hon. Friend?

[Mr Hunt]

I absolutely agree with my right hon. Friend’s points; he speaks wisely, as ever. I, too, want to pay tribute to the work that my predecessor, our right hon. Friend the Leader of the House, did in laying the ground and making the big call that we needed to have the Dilnot commission, and in last year publishing the care and support White Paper, which moved this agenda much further forward than in any of the 13 years of the previous Labour Government. My right hon. Friend is also right about the fundamental randomness and unfairness. Of course, we are not saying that the Government will pay for all the social care costs we encounter—public finances could not possibly be in a state to allow that to happen. However, this provides certainty and allows people to plan, so that they can cope with the randomness and unfairness of the current system and know that it will not put their precious inheritance at risk.

South London Healthcare NHS Trust

Stephen Dorrell Excerpts

Thursday 31st January 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hunt]

The right hon. Lady talks about the risks that Sir Bruce alludes to in his analysis of the trust special administrator’s proposals. Those risks are precisely why I have not accepted the proposals in their entirety and have put in place a series of additional safeguards.

Not resolving this issue, which is effectively what the Labour party is calling for because it has put forward no alternative proposals, would carry a high degree of risk. It would mean that south London would not meet the London-wide clinical quality standards. It would mean that £1 million a week would continue to be diverted from front-line patient care into funding an unsustainable deficit. That would be bad for her constituents and those in neighbouring constituencies.

We must look at the south-east London health care economy as a whole, but the objective must be to improve the services that people receive. That is a difficult balance to get right, but I think that we have the right balance in the proposals that I have outlined this morning.

[Mr Stephen Dorrell (Charnwood) (Con)]

Does my right hon. Friend agree that the very difficult decisions that he has announced to the House reflect the application in south London of something that is needed across the health service—a willingness to address difficult issues, but led always by clinical evidence on how to deliver the best possible outcomes for the patients who rely on the service?

[Mr Hunt]

I entirely agree with my right hon. Friend. It would be totally irresponsible for me as Health Secretary to fail to take a decision that could save as many lives as I believe this decision will save. If we are to save more lives in A and E and reduce the number of maternity deaths in London, it involves taking difficult decisions. The disappointment for me is that the Labour party has chosen to jump on an Opposition bandwagon, rather than putting forward its own solution to deal with the clinical issues in south-east London. Unfortunately, the Opposition are playing to the gallery. That is not what a Government-in-waiting should be doing.

Oral Answers to Questions

Stephen Dorrell Excerpts

Tuesday 15th January 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hunt]

With respect to the hon. Lady, she cannot talk about alleged cuts in the NHS while her Front-Bench team support a policy of real cuts in the NHS budget. In the last Opposition day debate, the right hon. Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham) said that he thought it was irresponsible of the Government to increase the NHS budget in real terms. That means he wants a real cut in the NHS budget, which would make the staffing issues to which she referred much, much worse.

[Mr Stephen Dorrell (Charnwood) (Con)]

Does my right hon. Friend agree that one of the most effective things we can do to improve the patient experience of health and care is to improve the co-ordination, not just between the hospital service and community-based health services, but between the NHS and social care, and to put in place the infrastructure, including the IT infrastructure, to make that real?

[Mr Hunt]

My right hon. Friend makes an extremely important point—in fact, I will be giving a speech on this tomorrow—because, in the end, if it is not possible to see a full medical record of some of these frail elderly or heaviest users of the NHS going in and out of the system throughout the year, it is not possible to give them the integrated, joined-up care that they desperately need. This will be a very big priority for us.

NHS Funding

Stephen Dorrell Excerpts

Wednesday 12th December 2012 Commons Chamber

[Andy Burnham]

Mr Dilnot may be watching; the Minister needs to be careful what she says.

That promise was carried into the coalition agreement, which said:

“We will guarantee”—

guarantee, mind—

“that health spending increases in real terms in each year of the Parliament”.

The Secretary of State has stopped nodding; he was nodding earlier. [Interruption.] I will be interested to hear how the Conservatives make those claims stack up, because week after week, Ministers from the Prime Minister downwards have stood at the Dispatch Box and claimed that that is exactly what they have delivered.

Until recently, this appeared prominently on the Conservative party website:

“We have increased the NHS budget in real terms in each of the last two years”.

Then, on 23 October, the Secretary of State said to the House:

“Real-terms spending on the NHS has increased across the country.”—[Official Report, 23 October 2012; Vol. 551, c. 815.]

[Interruption.] “It has”, he says again today. Okay, but this is where the story changes, because last week, he received a letter from the chair of the UK Statistics Authority, Andrew Dilnot CBE. Let me quote the key sentence, which puts Mr Dilnot and the Secretary of State at odds, if I heard the Secretary of State correctly a moment ago:

“On the basis of these figures, we would conclude that expenditure on the NHS in real terms was lower in 2011-12 than it was in 2009-10.”

[Interruption.] I am coming on to it all. In other words, NHS spending is lower, in real terms, after the first two years of the coalition, than when Labour left office.

[Mr Stephen Dorrell (Charnwood) (Con)]

Can the right hon. Gentleman confirm that the next sentence says:

“Given the small size of the changes and the uncertainties associated with them, it might also be fair to say that real terms expenditure had changed little over this period”?

[Andy Burnham]

Let me say to the Chair of the Health Committee that today I am challenging the veracity of ministerial statements made at the Dispatch Box. I am sure that as a former Secretary of State with many years’ experience of the House, he will know that when Ministers are at the Dispatch Box, they have to be accurate; they have to say the truth. A moment ago, the Secretary of State for Health said that he and the Conservative party were right to say that NHS spending had increased in real terms. That directly contradicts the letter that the Secretary of State had just been sent. Is it any wonder that the public are losing trust in the Government if that is the kind of arrogant spin that comes from those on the Government Benches, week after week?

[Mr Dorrell]

rose—

[Andy Burnham]

I give way to the right hon. Gentleman once more, but then I will make some progress.

[Mr Dorrell]

Is it fair to characterise the letter as saying that

“real terms expenditure had changed little over this period”?

[Andy Burnham]

That is what the letter says, but it is a cut; that is what the letter says. The right hon. Gentleman might say that, in the context of the NHS budget, £1.9 billion is not very much, but it is still a change, and it is a cut. He stood for election on a manifesto promising a real-terms increase. He has just acknowledged that there has been a real-terms cut. Does he acknowledge that there has been a real-terms cut? I think he will have to. I am amazed; the Conservatives come here today to try to con the public, yet again, into thinking that they are fulfilling their promise.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Stephen Dorrell (Charnwood) (Con)]

You challenged us earlier, Mr Deputy Speaker, to introduce a little Christmas good will to the debate, and I want to try to do that in two ways. First, I want to respond to the right hon. Member for Lewisham, Deptford (Dame Joan Ruddock), who spoke from the perspective of the local constituency and community interest in Lewisham. The challenges that she described repeat themselves many times over in the health care system, and it is those challenges that I want to address.

Secondly, I want to surprise the shadow Health Secretary, the right hon. Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham), by welcoming the fact that his motion, although I do not endorse it, refocuses the health debate on the core challenge facing the health service, and the health and care system more broadly, as it thinks about how we meet demand—in truth, there is bipartisan agreement on this—in the more challenging resource environment in which we now live.

Although we were not able to detect it in the right hon. Gentleman’s speech, the fact is that he, as Secretary of State, introduced the changed resource outlook within which the health and care system now operates. It was in May 2009—not on election day in May 2010—that Sir David Nicholson issued his annual report on the challenges facing the national health service. He made it clear that the system has to meet demand against the background of a resource outlook that is not only unrecognisably different from that during the generous funding of the Labour years between 1997 and 2010, but that has fundamentally changed from the one that the NHS has experienced throughout its whole history since 1948.

[Andy Burnham]

I agree with the right hon. Gentleman that I had to give the NHS that reality check and set the Nicholson challenge. With that in mind, does he agree that the Nicholson challenge should have been the only show in town after 2010, and that it was catastrophic to combine it with the biggest ever reorganisation that the NHS has ever seen?

[Mr Dorrell]

The right hon. Gentleman knows that I agree that the prime focus of health policy since 2010 should have been on how we can change the way that care is delivered in the health care system and the social care system to ensure that we can meet demand against the very different resource outlook that I have described. However, I say to the right hon. Gentleman, as I have done many times in this Chamber, that he shares some of the responsibility for the two-year trip down memory lane that we have had. It has been comfortable for the Labour party to say that the Tory party does not believe in the health service. We have been reminded numerous times that Tory MPs—all of whom are now dead and most of whom died before most of the current Members of the House of Commons were born—voted against the establishment of the national health service in 1946. We have had reminders from Government Members that the Labour party voted against the establishment of NHS trusts and then went ahead with the policy in office. The Labour party says that it is against choice and competition, but it was that party that established the choice and competition panel to ensure that those influences were brought to bear in health care policy.

We have had a two-year trip down memory lane, in which we have engaged in party political arguments that have avoided the issue that the right hon. Gentleman articulated as Secretary of State: how can we meet rising demand for health and care services against the background of a budget that, as the Select Committee has said repeatedly, is flatlining in real terms? That is why I was so keen earlier to read out the sentence from the Dilnot letter that states that it is

“fair to say that real terms expenditure had changed little over this period.”

The way that I prefer to put it is that if the decimal points are knocked out, real-terms expenditure is running at zero. The question is how to act against the background of a very small growth in resources, which is what the Government are committed to.

What the right hon. Gentleman did not cover in his speech is that the revenue expenditure of the NHS, which is what actually treats patients on a day-by-day basis, has grown modestly in real terms since his last year as Secretary of State. In my view, it will continue to grow modestly in real terms. He is frowning, but it is there in the arithmetic that there has been modest real-terms growth in the revenue expenditure, which is another definition of front-line services. That is the expenditure that funds the delivery of services to patients on a day-by-day basis and that is where the pressure is felt.

[Lucy Powell]

In addition to the point that the right hon. Gentleman is making, has he considered the chronic pressure that is being put on the NHS, which will get much worse from next April with the cuts to adult social care and the desperate cuts to local government? The conversation that we are having has to take into account what the money has to be spent on. The service will decline dramatically from next April.

[Mr Dorrell]

I have made the point more than once that we should look across the traditional divide between the national health service and the social care system towards a health and care system. The only way of responding to the efficiency challenge that the right hon. Member for Leigh was the first Secretary of State to set out—what the Select Committee has described as the Nicholson challenge—is to rethink the way in which services are delivered across the health and social care divide. The National Audit Office, another independent body, has stated that 30% of non-emergency hospital admissions are avoidable—not unnecessary, but avoidable. We need decent community-based services that meet the demand early in the development of the condition to avoid the unnecessary development of acute cases that have to be treated though hospital admission.

[Andy Sawford]

The right hon. Gentleman has been a vocal advocate for a long-term solution to the issues relating to the integration of health and social care. I have enjoyed engaging with him on those issues in the past. Does he agree that it is incredibly disappointing that we are not making the progress that we should be making in finding consensus on the future of social care funding and, in the short term, on diverting more funding, particularly from NHS underspends, to prevention?

[Mr Dorrell]

I agree completely with the hon. Gentleman’s characterisation of the challenge. I was looking forward to him congratulating the Government on taking a step in the right direction, although it is not a total solution, by investing in prevention some of the resources in the health care. [Interruption.] The hon. Gentleman indicates that it is only a little and that it should be more.

We need to look across the statutory divide that reflects history, but not the demands of today’s generation of patients. The key thing that we must recognise in the debate about health and care is that we have inherited a system, which all of us have supported through most of its history, that is built on the assumption that the typical patient will be restored to good health. In Bevan’s day, that was true of the typical patient in the health and care system, but it is not true of the typical patient in today’s system. The majority of the resources in today’s health and care system go towards delivering care to people who will not be restored to full health. That, not surprisingly, requires a different set of institutions, shaped in a different way from the institutions that we have inherited from history.

The challenge that faces all of us in this House who care about the health and care system is not to protect the different bits of the system as though they were listed buildings, but to change the system so that it uses today’s technologies to meet the needs of today’s patients. That is the core challenge that faces my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and his colleagues and, if I may say so, the right hon. Member for Leigh and his shadow ministerial colleagues.

[Mr Graham Stuart]

Will my right hon. Friend give way?

[Mr Dorrell]

If my hon. Friend will forgive me, I will not.

For the second half of this Parliament, we could have a reprise of the first half and we could trade party political slogans about a system that increasingly thinks that the political debate has nothing to do with it, or we could engage with the people who understand what real life feels like on the front line of the system, which has been described by one or two Opposition Members, and we could show that we in this House support the need for change in order to use taxpayers’ resources to meet taxpayers’ health and care needs. That is the real challenge that faces the House this evening.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Dorrell]

I am listening carefully to my hon. Friend, and I have some sympathy with him, but will he acknowledge that the arguments for those options are partly about health economics but partly related to the need to deliver better quality to those who rely on community-based services? We do not want acute cases if they are avoidable.

[John Pugh]

I agree; none the less, we both agree that there is still a huge economic problem.

Even reducing the number of managers has mixed impacts, because asking doctors to manage services or buy in management service from elsewhere has cost implications. It uses up medical time, which needs to be replaced. Then there is the blighted history of IT and the uncertain role of technology and innovation, which can increase demand but also reduce cost. Even if we see public health as the answer, it is still not a complete answer by itself, because if we do not solve the huge problem of dementia, there is no saying that prolonging life and keeping people fit will necessarily reduce overall costs in the long run. If we look at things such as rewarding doctors through the quality and outcomes framework, and so on, we find some pretty expensive deployment of public money, albeit not always to massive effect. The point I am trying to make is that there is a whole medicine chest of remedies available, but no complete agreement on precisely how or where best to use them. None of them seems to be a cure-all, and many have undesired side effects.

As we choose to use those remedies, they need to be employed with skill, judgment and the benefits of experience, because we are dealing with an almost insurmountable problem. We have to approach the problem—almost like good medicine—using the right remedy, at the right time, in the right way and with skill, judgment and experience. However, that will not result simply from using market forces or creating some sort of ersatz market—that is just another tool we might choose to use. What we want—I am sure the Minister agrees—is integrated services, which would avoid expensive duplication, cost-shunting and piecemeal provision. It would be really nice if we could exploit better economies of scale in procurement, for example, or make better use of the NHS estate. It would be nice if we could discover good practice and roll it out across the piece quickly. It would be really nice if the NHS was a well oiled and efficient machine—a truly integrated system with proper clinical networks that were properly protected. It would be nice if we got what the Minister describes as integration, which is a kind of holy grail at the moment.

However, I have a problem—I am sure the Minister has a response to it—in that we have just abolished what I think would be the best agency for integration. The strategic health authority, unloved as it was—a bit obese, misunderstood, and so on—was a vehicle that could perform that role, applying the right remedies in the right place. I must own up: we decided in the Lib Dem manifesto that we wanted to get rid of the SHA. However, perhaps over the fullness of time the NHS Commissioning Board will create something like that—quietly, privately—because to some extent, I think we all agree, it is needed. Meanwhile, there are key things we need to get on with. We can certainly improve procurement without any difficulty. We can try to release ourselves from the pointless grip of the EU working time directive, which adds appreciably to salary costs. We can also work hard to move data around the system better. There is an enormous amount to do and it is not obvious who is going to do it.

Oral Answers to Questions

Stephen Dorrell Excerpts

Tuesday 27th November 2012 Commons Chamber

[Dr Poulter]

Of all Ministers in the House, the hon. Lady has probably asked the right one about this issue. This is a long-standing problem that goes back many years. There has been great variability in the availability of IVF in different parts of the country, and, at a national level, NICE finds that unacceptable. I will be taking the matter forward, and I assure her that we will make sure that we do all we can to iron out that variability and follow NICE guidelines so that everyone can receive the best IVF treatment.

[Mr Stephen Dorrell (Charnwood) (Con)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that the best way to ensure that high-quality care continues to be available to all patients, as and when they need it, is to ensure that the health and care systems are brought together into a single joined-up system so that, in the words of Mike Farrar of the NHS Confederation, we operate a care system with a health adjunct rather than a health system with care support?

NHS Commissioning Board (Mandate)

Stephen Dorrell Excerpts

Tuesday 13th November 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hunt]

The redundancies in management and administration will save the NHS £1.5 billion every year—£1.5 billion that can be spent on the front line. We should compare that with the £1.6 billion the NHS must spend every year to deal with the right hon. Gentleman’s disastrous private finance initiative policies that left the NHS with £73 billion of debt overhang.

Let us talk about clinical networks, which are extremely important. We have four clinical networks—for cardio, cancer, maternity and mental health—and they will continue. The budget that the networks are using is increasing and not decreasing under the Commissioning Board.

The right hon. Gentleman said that ambulance services in Manchester would be run by a private bus company. I am sure the House will be interested to know who the Health Minister was when the guidelines that allow private bus companies to bid to run ambulance services were drawn up. It was the right hon. Gentleman. He was in post when that happened.

The right hon. Gentleman describes the mandate as a wish list. He should tell that to the 570,000 people who have dementia, for whom Government Members want to do a better job. He should tell it to people who suffer from cancer. They have below-average European survival rates, but we want them to have the best survival rates in Europe. He should tell it to the families and carers of people who are worried about the level of care they receive in certain parts of the system.

Government Members are determined to aim high for our NHS, because we believe in it. We believe it is doing incredibly well in difficult circumstances, but it can do even better. The right hon. Gentleman should also want an ambitious NHS. Just because he did not have those ambitions when he was Health Secretary does not mean that the Government should not aim high to make our NHS the best in the world.

[Mr Stephen Dorrell (Charnwood) (Con)]

I apologise to you, Mr Speaker, and to the House for my inability to control modern technology.

Does my right hon. Friend think it striking that, when he presents the first mandate of the NHS Commissioning Board to the House of Commons, we hear a lot of synthetic rhetoric from the Opposition Front Bench, but not a single disagreement with any one of his propositions from the Dispatch Box or in the mandate? Does that not demonstrate—this has always been the Conservative case—that there is a shared commitment to the ideals of the NHS, and that the difference is our ability to deliver it effectively?

[Mr Hunt]

I hope my right hon. Friend is right that there is agreement on the goals in the mandate, because they have been drawn up after extensive consultation with the people of this country and are important priorities, particularly as we grapple with an ageing society. I agree with him that it does not the help the NHS to descend to the rhetoric we heard from the right hon. Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham). There is a very important and legitimate debate about the right way to achieve shared goals. Government Members do not believe the right way is through performance management from the Department of Health and trying to echo out every part of the system. We believe the right way is to empower local GP-led groups to make changes on the ground. That is at the heart of the reforms.

Regional Pay (NHS)

Stephen Dorrell Excerpts

Wednesday 7th November 2012 Commons Chamber

[Andy Burnham]

I am here to talk about the NHS in England. I will come on to the Conservative Government’s record on funding the NHS in England, so I would not be so smug if I were the hon. Gentleman.

The drive to turn collaboration into competition depends on breaking national standards—breaking the “N” in NHS. The former Health Secretary’s request to the pay review body to consider the case for “market-facing pay” needs to be seen alongside his Health and Social Care Act 2012. Breaking national pay in the NHS is an essential step towards creating the free market in health that many in the Conservative party have long wanted, and which the Liberals now seem willing to let them have.

[Mr Stephen Dorrell (Charnwood) (Con)]

Will the right hon. Gentleman confirm that the direction towards market-facing pay should also be seen in the context of the statement in the Budget presented by the previous Government in 2003 committing them to increase regional and local flexibility in public service pay systems? Did he support that when he was Secretary of State?

[Andy Burnham]

The Labour Government did introduce some flexibility, but let me tell the right hon. Gentleman my record: I spoke up, at every opportunity, for the principle of national pay underpinning a national health service. We hear nothing similar from Government Front Benchers. We built a progressive system of pay for the NHS in “Agenda for Change”, which brought fairness and stability to the system. By the time we left office, not one trust had opted out of that national system of pay, and only one, Southend, paid an increment on top.

[Mr Dorrell]

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

[Andy Burnham]

No, I will make some progress.

Breaking national pay is what the Government want to do, and that springs from an entirely different philosophy from the one that forged the NHS in the first place. The Government are rejecting the “one NHS” approach, whereby hospitals collaborate and the unpredictable pressures of any health service are balanced across the system. Instead, they have a vision of hospitals as stand-alone small businesses, on their own in the marketplace, with no bail-outs and free to earn up to 49% of their income from the treatment of private patients, but—as we are seeing in south-east London—finding little mercy in a private-sector-style administration process if the sums do not add up. That is a very different vision of the NHS, and it is not one to which the British people have ever given their consent in a general election.

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Skidmore]

What I find so frustrating about this debate is that the right hon. Gentleman has thrown his principles out of the window. He once defended flexibility for foundation trusts, but he now no longer trusts professionals in the way he really should.

[Mr Dorrell]

My hon. Friend asked the shadow spokesman a question as though it was academic, but actually it is not academic. When the right hon. Gentleman was responsible for these things, we know what he thought because it is there on the record. The policy was

“to increase regional and local flexibility in public service pay systems.”

That is what he thought was necessary when he had responsibility.

[Chris Skidmore]

I thank my right hon. Friend for his intervention, which is much appreciated.

The key point is that staffing costs will have to be managed for the future. We cannot get away from that fact. If I am honest in making that point, I am sorry, but we all, regardless of political parties, have to understand the financial pressures the NHS will come under in the decades to come. Staffing costs make up between 70% and 75% of NHS spend. The Nicholson challenge is absolutely vital, and it is not just over four years, as the right hon. Member for Leigh well knows; it will be for ever. We will have to commit to making those efficiency savings so that they can be reinvested in the service if we are to keep the NHS free at the point of delivery. I want an NHS that is free at the point of delivery for my children, yet to be born, and I want it to be there at the end of the century. In order to do that, we need to be responsible about where savings will be made. We are pushing savings at the moment on the outside staffing costs of 20%. The pay freeze has managed to save around £2.5 billion for the Nicholson challenge, as we have heard Mike Farrar from the NHS Confederation explain.

There is a problem, in that the NHS pay freeze will come to an end next year and will have to be renegotiated. Rather than cutting staff numbers, the NHS Confederation is pushing for us to be responsible about what is put into the NHS. That is what we have to consider. We cannot get away from this challenge. It is irresponsible to fly in the face of reorganisation. We need to make savings so that they can be reinvested for the future. That is why it is responsible for the trust and the south-west consortium to take the issue seriously, and it will be up to the individual trusts to decide at the end of the year.

I cannot see any reason why local trusts and health care professionals, who know what is best for their local areas, should not be able to take advantage of the regulations for local flexibilities set out in “Agenda for Change” to ensure that the NHS has the best possible productivity. Let us not forget that the NHS is not free; it is paid for by taxpayers, who deserve the best possible value for money. If the south-west consortium can deliver that, it should be applauded.

Mental Health Act 1983

Stephen Dorrell Excerpts

Monday 29th October 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hunt]

First, I thank the right hon. Gentleman for the co-operation that he has shown to me and my Department over the weekend. There are occasionally moments when issues of public safety and patient well-being transcend the normal political divides, and I greatly appreciate his co-operation on this matter.

Let me deal with the important questions that the right hon. Gentleman has asked. The issue arose when a challenge was made to the authorisation of one doctor in Yorkshire and Humberside and, in dealing with that challenge, the irregularity in the way in which all authorisations had happened became apparent. Following further investigation, we discovered that this had happened in four other SHAs. We found out about this early last week, and I was informed towards the end of last week. Immediate action was taken to ensure proper validation last week of all the doctors who are currently taking section 12 decisions under the Mental Health Act, and that was completed as of today.

We have done exhaustive checks on the other SHAs, which is part of the reason why we asked all the SHA bosses to write to Sir David Nicholson—which they have all done today—to confirm that their processes in this area are in order. We do not believe that this issue affects any patients other than the ones we have talked about, to date. However, because people move and are moved to different hospitals and places of detention, it might be happening in other parts of the country beyond the four SHAs in which the irregularities in authorisation happened.

The right hon. Gentleman will understand that it is not the practice for Governments to publish legal advice because we want to continue to be able to receive frank legal advice in the future. However, I am happy to answer any questions about the legal advice and, as he knows, I am happy for him to talk to my Department’s legal advisers to satisfy himself on the precise legal situation.

Let me move on to the really important point about the alternatives that we considered, as it is highly exceptional to bring in emergency legislation. The right hon. Gentleman will know that authorities are allowed to detain someone under the Mental Health Act for 72 hours while the correct processes are followed to section them. Although, as I mentioned, we believe we have good arguments to show why these detentions were lawful, we did not know what a court might have decided if the detentions were challenged. We could have faced literally having to redo the entire process for 4,000 to 5,000 patients within 72 hours. Given the high level of vulnerability of many of them, we could not find a means of doing that in an orderly way that protected their well-being. I received clear medical advice from the NHS medical director, Professor Sir Bruce Keogh that that would not be an appropriate course of action. We looked at the position carefully and because we were trying to explore other alternatives we did not come to the decision to introduce emergency legislation until this weekend.

I can confirm that we do not believe that this has highlighted a defect in the legislation. We are not seeking in the emergency draft Bill to change the Mental Health Act. This is purely retrospective legislation dealing with some specific procedures under that Act; it will have no impact as this goes forward.

The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely right that we must be sure to minimise the confusion as we move towards the new structures. Under them, the problem would have been resolved, with the power reverting from strategic health authorities to the Department of Health. I do not want to be complacent: if this problem happened in one area, we want to be sure that it cannot happen in others.

[Mr Stephen Dorrell (Charnwood) (Con)]

I welcome the prompt action taken by my right hon. Friend and the support he has secured from Opposition Front Benchers for putting this sensitive matter on a secure legal footing. Is not the key point the fact that no patient has been sectioned and no doctor has been authorised who would not have been sectioned or authorised under the legislation? Is not the purpose of the emergency Bill, as always with retrospective legislation, simply to put the position as Parliament intended it to be in the first place?

[Mr Hunt]

My understanding is exactly the same as that of my right hon. Friend. The key point is that this was a technical irregularity, but we do not believe that any patient has been sectioned, detained or hospitalised who would not have been if the correct procedures had not been followed. It is none the less very serious that this technical breach happened; that is why, as well as correcting the technical breach and providing absolute clarity, we are conducting this review to make sure that we do everything we can to avoid anything similar happening again—even under completely different structures than the SHAs.