European Union (Referendum) Bill

John Bercow Excerpts

Friday 8th November 2013 Commons Chamber

[Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con)]

rose—

[Mr Speaker]

We shall shortly begin with new clause 1, but not before I have heard the point of order from Mr Jacob Rees-Mogg.

[Jacob Rees-Mogg]

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. It is stated clearly in “Erskine May” that the vote must go with the voice. Many hon. Members shouted Aye; none voted in favour. Will you investigate the question of whether any Members who shouted Aye then voted No?

[Mr Speaker]

I am extremely grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his point of order and I respect the spirit in which he has raised it. My understanding of the situation is that a Member who shouts Aye must not then vote in the contrary direction, or vice versa. I do not think, although I entirely respect the spirit of the hon. Gentleman’s point, that it reflects in this case because a Member is not obliged to vote simply because he or she has shouted. What he or she must not do is shout one way and vote the other. But the point that the hon. Gentleman has raised is an important one, and I thank him for raising it.

[Chris Williamson (Derby North) (Lab)]

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I would be grateful for your guidance on whether there is a modern-day precedent for the use of imperial legislation, as outlined in new clause 1, which looks more like an attempt to prevent stories from appearing about more divisions in the Conservative party over Europe and about the date of referendum being before the general election.

[Mr Speaker]

I cannot say I am very grateful for that point of order, for the simple reason that, as the hon. Gentleman is well aware, that is a point that he could and should, if he is so minded, raise in the debate, rather than detaining the House with a bogus point of order now.

[Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD)]

On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

[Mr Speaker]

I hope it is a genuine one.

[Martin Horwood]

Mr Speaker, your selection of amendments is obviously correct and beyond reproach, but perhaps you could shed some light on the non-selection of my amendment—

[Mr Speaker]

Order. The hon. Gentleman will resume his seat. He has been in the House long enough to know that the Chair is never required to explain or, as he puts it, shed light on the selection of amendments. The hon. Gentleman will have to rest content with the selection. If I were inclined to put it bluntly, I would say that he can like it or lump it.

New Clause 1

Gibraltar

‘(1) An order under section 3(2) or (3) which extends to Gibraltar may—

(a) provide for conduct to constitute a criminal offence under the law of Gibraltar;

(b) extend and apply to Gibraltar, with or without modification, the provisions of any enactment relating to referendums or elections;

(c) modify any such enactment so far as it has effect in relation to any part of the United Kingdom;

(d) modify or apply or incorporate, with or without modification, the provisions of any legislation in force in Gibraltar relating to elections, or referendums.

(2) The capacity of the Gibraltar legislature to make law in relation to any matter in relation to which provision may be made under section 3 is not affected by the existence of the power conferred by that section.

(3) Subsection (2) is not to be regarded as restricting the operation in relation to law made by the Gibraltar legislature of the Colonial Laws Validity Act 1865 (under which colonial laws are void if repugnant to provision made under an Act of Parliament).

(4) “Enactment”, and “modification” have the same meaning as in the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000 (see section 160(1) of that Act).’.—(Andrew Rosindell.)

Brought up, and read the First time.

[Andrew Rosindell (Romford) (Con)]

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

[Mr Speaker]

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Amendment 41, in clause 2, page 1, line 18, leave out ‘and’.

Amendment 43, in clause 2, page 1, line 18, at end insert—

‘(aa) persons who have right of abode in the United Kingdom.’.

Amendment 45, in clause 2, page 1, line 18, at end insert—

‘(aa) persons who would be entitled to vote as electors in a European Parliament election.’.

Amendment 46, in clause 2, page 1, line 18, at end insert—

‘(aa) all persons who are legally entitled to vote as electors at a local government election.’.

Amendment 47, in clause 2, page 1, line 18, at end insert—

‘(aa) all British citizens resident in any of the member states of the European Union.’.

Amendment 48, in clause 2, page 1, line 19, after ‘peers’, insert ‘or prisoners’.

Amendment 8, in clause 2, page 1, line 20, at end add—

‘(c) British citizens, regardless of where they are resident, who have registered to vote with a British Embassy or High Commission or with the local authority where they last lived in the United Kingdom not less than six months before the date of the referendum, and the statutory provisions relating to overseas voters shall be disapplied for the purposes of this section.’.

Amendment 44, in clause 2, page 1, line 20, at end insert—

‘(2) Persons aged 16 or 17 on the date of the referendum shall be entitled to vote if they would, save for their age, be otherwise entitled to vote under any of the categories set out in subsection (1) above.’.

Amendment 49, in clause 2, page 1, line 20, at end insert—

‘(c) citizens of the Republic of Ireland, Cyprus and Malta resident in the United Kingdom shall not be entitled to vote.’.

Amendment 50, in clause 2, page 1, line 20, at end insert—

‘(c) residents of all Crown Dependencies.’.

Amendment 51, in clause 2, page 1, line 20, at end insert—

‘(c) residents of all British Overseas Territories.’.

Amendment 63, in clause 2, page 1, line 20, at end add—

‘(2) Provision will be made for all electors included in the Gibraltar register as defined in Schedule 1 to the Government of Gibraltar’s European Parliamentary Elections Act 2004 to vote in Gibraltar in person or by post.’.

Amendment 69, in clause 2, page 1, line 20, at end add—

‘(c) persons who are citizens of British Overseas Territories.’.

Amendment 80, in clause 2, page 1, line 20, at end insert ‘and

‘( ) Commonwealth citizens who, on the date of the referendum, would be entitled to vote in Gibraltar as electors at a European Parliamentary election in the combined electoral region in which Gibraltar is comprised.’.

Amendment 81, in clause 5, page 2, line 21, at beginning insert—

‘( ) This Act extends to—

(a) England and Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland; and

(b) Gibraltar.’.

Amendment 82, in line 1 after ‘Kingdom’, insert ‘and Gibraltar’.

[Andrew Rosindell]

I am proud to move new clause 1, in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Stockton South (James Wharton) and myself.

On 1 January 1973, the people of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland joined the then Common Market, the European Economic Community, as it was known at that stage, but it was not just the people of the United Kingdom who joined what is now the European Union at that point. It was also the people of the then British Crown colony of Gibraltar, now known as a British overseas territory.

As all Members of the House know, the people of the Rock of Gibraltar are deeply proud of the fact that they are one of Her Majesty’s British overseas territories. They are proud of being British and proud of being part of the British family of nations and territories, but they are also part of the European Union.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Sheerman]

I have been in this House long enough to be grateful for small mercies, and we did, after all, get a change. As I said, it is very unusual to do something in a Bill Committee that one can remember as being quite creative.

It was an unusual Committee, Mr Speaker. I was in full flow at one stage, and when I turned to look at the Public Gallery, the Prime Minister was sitting in on the proceedings. This is a very special Bill—

[Mr Speaker]

Order. I do not know why the hon. Gentleman is suggesting that there is anything unusual either about his being in full flow or about his expectation that the Prime Minister will be listening to him.

[Mr Sheerman]

I am grateful for that, Mr Speaker.

I will conclude my remarks and hope to be called later in the debate. I am in favour of the new clause, which fits in with the whole tone of the discussion that we had in Committee. The Opposition acted very positively in relation to this Bill in trying to refine it and to be supportive. All of us, as a team, tried to work together. We disagreed, but we disagreed in a rather pleasant way.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mike Gapes]

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Is it in order for an hon. Member to refer to amendments that you have selected as valid for this debate as “frivolous”?

[Mr Speaker]

The substance of the amendments is a matter for debate. I sincerely hope that the hon. Member for Cheltenham (Martin Horwood), who has erred rather seriously once already, is not suggesting that it was inappropriate for the Chair to select the amendments. If he thinks that their content is not up to his high standards of intellectual argument, that is a matter for debate. That they were proper amendments to be selected is not a matter for debate, because I selected them. That is the end of it.

[Martin Horwood]

Heaven forfend that I should question the selection of amendments once again, having been appropriately chastised at the beginning of the debate.

I apologise to the hon. Member for Ilford South (Mike Gapes) if I suggested that he was being frivolous. I am sure that that is not true. I am sure that he was well-meaning in tabling the amendments. What I was highlighting was that those of us who are on the pro-European side of the debate and who want to move on from arcane discussions about the minutiae of referendums to the real issue, which is whether Britain should be in or out, do ourselves no favours if we run the risk of being seen as putting forward anything that might be interpreted as frivolous. If I may put it in those guarded terms, I hope that he will respect my slight warning that we are getting close to dangerous territory.

The one amendment that I will single out is amendment 44, which raises the issue of the voting age. We debated that matter in Committee, but it was not fully resolved. I want to put on the record the long-standing Liberal Democrat commitment to extend democratic voting rights to those of 16 or above. It is important to young people and to the future of our democracy that people who are younger than 18 are given the vote and are engaged in political debate, if possible while still at school. Yesterday, I was at Balcarras school, which is an outstanding comprehensive school in Cheltenham. I had a long, gruelling debate with the sixth-formers, who were really engaged in the issues. It must be a frustration to such well-informed observers of the political scene that they cannot vote. We should take every available opportunity to advance the arguments for votes at 16 and this is a good opportunity to do so.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr John Spellar (Warley) (Lab)]

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Is it not the case that anyone speaking from the Dispatch Box on the Government side of the Chamber is speaking on behalf of the Government?

[Mr Speaker]

The right hon. Gentleman is correct. That is the situation—a Minister who speaks from the Treasury Bench is speaking for the Government.

[Martin Horwood]

That raises an interesting issue that perhaps the Government—both sides of the coalition—should reflect on. I stand corrected for the second time in the space of an hour or so, and I am grateful to the right hon. Member for Warley (Mr Spellar) for that point of order.

I was drawing my remarks to a conclusion. The key issue is not whether the new clause is right, because I believe it has wide support throughout the House, but the anomalous position in which Gibraltar could be left if it voted to remain in the European Union, but then faced involuntary expulsion from it as a result of the vote of the rest of the United Kingdom—or of the United Kingdom, depending on whether we regard Gibraltar as technically being part of the UK. I should like to hear the Minister’s opinion about that.