Ministerial Code (Culture Secretary)

John Bercow Excerpts

Wednesday 13th June 2012 Commons Chamber

[Ms Harman]

I think that the exchange—[Interruption.]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. Members on both sides of the House need to calm down. I always listen with great interest to the pronouncements of the Secretary of State for Education, but I say to him in all courtesy that his pronouncements from a sedentary position on matters for which he has no direct ministerial responsibility add nothing. I am not interested; I do not want to hear them. The right hon. Gentleman should sit silently and listen to the debate. If he feels unable to do that, he is welcome to depart the Chamber, and we will just about manage without him.

[Ms Harman]

Thank you, Mr Speaker.

In response to my hon. Friend the Member for Wrexham (Ian Lucas), I think that the exchange of letters from the Prime Minister is nothing more than an attempt to distract and provide a smokescreen, and we should not be distracted from the very important issues that are the subject of this motion: misleading the House and failing to take responsibility for a special adviser.

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[Ms Harman]

I am trying to set out—[Interruption.]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. It is up to the hon. Gentleman to show some sensitivity to the conventions of the House. He asked the right hon. and learned Lady to give way and the answer was no; he should not keep persisting at it. He can have another go later if he wants. [Interruption.] Order. I do not need any guidance from the hon. Member for Broxtowe (Anna Soubry), on the strength of her two years in the House, about correct parliamentary procedure. The hon. Lady is a very distinguished figure and a rising star, but I think I can probably just about get by without her assistance.

[Ms Harman]

Asking the House to vote for a referral to the independent adviser is a serious matter. I am seeking to set out the facts on which I ask the House to make the judgment when it votes. That is why I am going through the facts.

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[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Mr Speaker]

Order. The House must try to contain itself. [Interruption.] It is no good hon. Members groaning. Some Members are getting very over-excited. It is early in the day. There is a long time to go. I suggest that Members calm down.

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[Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)]

I have had to correct the record as well. There is no dishonour in correcting the record. However, what the Minister just referred to was his reply on 7 September, when he said that it was for reasons of cost that he was not able to provide anything more. How much would it have cost him to remember that he had sent a memo to the Prime Minister on the matter, or to have checked his own mobile phone for the text messages that he sent to James Murdoch? He has lied to Parliament. [Interruption.]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. [Interruption.] Order. Let me say to the House that the substantive matter under consideration reflected in the terms of the motion is whether the House of Commons has been misled in any way. That is the thrust of the matter under debate and the Secretary of State is making a very clear defence of himself, so when Members cavil and inquire whether what we have heard is legitimate, I am guided by advice and I operate on the basis that there is a substantive motion, which is what the whole debate is about and in relation to which the Secretary of State is speaking.

In general terms, the normal principles of “Erskine May” about moderation and good humour apply, but I cannot preclude—[Interruption.] Order. I cannot preclude a Member operating in accordance with the terms of the motion. The Secretary of State—[Interruption.] Order. I require no assistance from the Immigration Minister. The Minister should sit, be calm and listen intently. If he does not want to do so, he can leave the Chamber.

[The Leader of the House of Commons (Sir George Young)]

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I am not sure whether everyone heard correctly the allegation that was made by the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant). As I understood it, he accused my right hon. Friend of lying to Parliament. My understanding is that that is unparliamentary language and that it should be withdrawn. [Hon. Members: “Hear, hear!”]

[Mr Speaker]

Members can shout as loudly or for as long as they like, but it will make no difference. I am simply saying that on the advice that I have taken, nothing disorderly has occurred. [Interruption.] Order, Mr Brennan. I simply ask the Secretary of State to continue with his case.

I appeal to Members to exercise restraint in the frequency—[Interruption.] Order. Members must exercise restraint in the frequency with which they intervene for the debate to continue in an orderly way and for there to be a reasonable opportunity for Members from both sides of the House to contribute.

[Jacob Rees-Mogg]

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. As in this debate it may be orderly to accuse my right hon. Friend of being a liar, would it be orderly to accuse Opposition Front Benchers of being the most sanctimonious, hypocritical humbugs in recent political memory?

[Mr Speaker]

The answer is no, it would not be legitimate to make such a charge against an individual Member who was not the subject of the motion under debate in the House. The hon. Member for Rhondda has said what he has said. I have explained why it may not be proper for him to say it. I know that, being as well behaved as he is, he will not persist.

[Mr Jeremy Hunt]

With great respect to your office, Mr Speaker, I think that there is a huge difference between misleading Parliament inadvertently and lying.

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[Mr Speaker]

Order. I appreciate the Secretary of State’s respect, but let me say to him explicitly and for the avoidance of doubt what I have just said. There is a motion. That motion is being debated. He will make his case, and I look forward to him continuing to do so. I will be the arbiter of order, and I know that he will leave that to me.

[Mr Hunt]

It is because I wish to make my case that I want to draw the House’s attention to the very important distinction between inadvertently misleading this House and lying. Lying implies that there is deliberate intent. The hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant), who has made great play in the press of how he has suffered when inaccurate allegations about him have been bandied about in the press, would, I am sure, not want to associate himself with the comment he has made unless he has any evidence. I am happy to give way to him now if he will show me evidence of any occasion when I have misled Parliament deliberately.

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[Mr Hunt]

The memo, if the hon. Lady has read it, said that we should have a meeting that should not intrude on the quasi-judicial decision that the Business Secretary had to make. Something very significant, which she is forgetting about, is that no meeting happened. [Interruption.]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. Members must not shout at the Secretary of State. [Interruption.] Order. The House needs to calm down. The Secretary of State is entitled to make his case in the way that the shadow Secretary of State made hers.

[Mr Hunt]

I want to address the second allegation, which relates to my responsibility for the actions of my special adviser. I took responsibility for those actions in my statement.

The question that the right hon. and learned Member for Camberwell and Peckham has failed to answer is why it is a breach of the ministerial code when a Conservative special adviser behaves inappropriately, but not when a Labour special adviser does. Why is she calling for my resignation, when she did not call for that of the last Labour Prime Minister following the actions of Damian McBride or Charlie Whelan? Her inability to answer that question betrays her motives as being not about ministerial conduct, but about rank political opportunism. It may be that she holds Conservative Ministers to a higher standard of conduct than Labour Ministers because she believes that Conservative Ministers behave better than Labour Ministers. In that case, I would agree with her. I gently remind her that her position is not entirely consistent.

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[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Mr Speaker]

Order. I am grateful to the Secretary of State. [Interruption.] Order. The hon. Member for Blyth Valley (Mr Campbell) is an elder statesman in the House and should behave with the restraint expected of somebody who enjoys that soubriquet.

There is a lot of interest in the debate and several Members wish to be called. I hope it will be understood that there has to be a time limit. I wanted to see how much time was left before setting it. There will be an eight-minute limit on Back-Bench speeches with immediate effect.

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[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Mr Speaker]

Order. The hon. Gentleman is not giving way at the moment. The hon. Member for North Wiltshire (Mr Gray) need not be worried. He is very visible—the hon. Member for Wrexham (Ian Lucas) has seen him and may give way in due course. He can have another go in a moment, exercising the usual restraint and good judgment that he demonstrates on these occasions.

[Ian Lucas]

The Prime Minister used Sir Alex Allan at the Dispatch Box for political advantage. He has used Baroness Warsi for political advantage by referring her to the independent adviser. He is using his colleagues to defend his position. We saw his behaviour again today, when he insulted my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Walton (Steve Rotheram). It is a disgrace that Conservative Members support such contemptible behaviour by the Prime Minister—[Interruption.]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. The hon. Gentleman has made a number of references to the Prime Minister, which I took to be in passing, but the conduct of the Prime Minister is not the subject of debate—[Interruption.] Order. There is not a substantive motion on that matter, so I feel sure that the hon. Gentleman will re-orientate his remarks to matters that fall within the terms of the motion.

[Ian Lucas]

The subject of the debate is the conduct of the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport. He knows he does not have the confidence of the country or the Chamber. He cannot carry out his important role. He is not impartial, he is not perceived to be impartial, and he should go.