Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Ninth sitting)

Debate between Simon Opher and Naz Shah

Committee stage
Tuesday 11th February 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Naz Shah]

I will be speaking to the issue in relation to terminal illness, because it relates to my amendment in another grouping. The reason I am making this point now is that it also impacts on capacity. When we are assessing capacity—again, this talks to the point—the truth is that nobody in this Bill Committee or otherwise can tell me that the Mental Capacity Act has been applied to the question, “Would you like assisted dying?”

[Dr Simon Opher (Stroud) (Lab)]

First, it is impossible to argue that, because we have never been able to have assisted dying in this country, so it is a spurious argument. However, I do not quite understand the argument here. You are suggesting—

[Dr Opher]

I am sorry. My hon. Friend is suggesting that a system that has been tried and tested in court and by clinicians throughout the country over the last 20 years is not preferrable to a new system that is completely untried. I thought this Committee was about making these things safe for patients, and I cannot see how the amendment makes them more safe.

[Naz Shah]

My hon. Friend speaks to my point and the idea that the Act has been tried and tested. When we are talking about coercion, and capacity in relation to coercion, I come back to the point that we in this House have only just, in 2015 and 2021, made legislation using the word “coercion”. It was not recognised before. On the idea that this has been tried and tested for the last 20 years, I simply beg to differ.

Coercion does come into the issue of capacity. We are looking at the Mental Capacity Act, which was introduced in 2005 and is 20 years old. These conversations were not being had in Parliament at that time; the vocabulary did not include “coercion” or “undue influence”, even at the time the Mental Capacity Act was passed by this House. Again, that speaks to my point: are we really saying that we want to test the Mental Capacity Act on something that has never been done before?

--- Later in debate ---

[Naz Shah]

I appreciate where the right hon. Member is coming from—I sincerely do. It comes back to the heart of the issue around capacity. We heard from the psychiatrist—her name escapes me, but she was on the right-hand side—that, where there is an increase of vulnerability, if somebody is told they would get pain relief, they would choose an alternative path. Those were similar words, and I will find the reference.

My point is that we do not have equal healthcare access in prison. We provide prisoners with healthcare, but it is in no way equitable. The health inequalities that exist outside prison are bad enough. Palliative care is not fit for purpose in our country—it is a postcode lottery. Depending on which prison someone goes to, that will determine what kind of access they have to palliative care. It is not a level playing field.

[Dr Opher]

I have a simple question: is it not illegal to deprive people in prison and homeless people of the same care that the rest of the population receives?

[Naz Shah]

It would be if we were making treatment equitable, but if we apply the test of legality, and this is about pain—we have already seen the amendments tabled by the hon. Member for Harrogate and Knaresborough, which would widen the scope from six months to 12 months—where do we draw the line in terms of equity and legality? The Bill is open to a lot of legal challenges, and if we want to go down that route, there would be plenty of them.

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Sixth sitting)

Debate between Simon Opher and Naz Shah

Committee stage
Thursday 30th January 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Dr Opher]

Q Just to confirm—you have not had any failures of treatment, as far as you are aware?

Dr Furst: There have been no failures of treatment in South Australia, as far as I am aware. I am not aware of any other particular ones around the country that have been heavily broadcast to us.

[Naz Shah (Bradford West) (Lab)]

Q To follow up on that, there is no requirement that the doctor is present when the person self-administers the substance that leads to assisted dying. Am I correct? If that is the case, why does the law not make it necessary for the doctor to remain present until death, because at that point, the doctor would pick up any complications, would they not?

Dr Furst: Every legislation within Australia is slightly different. For South Australia and Victoria, you are correct—well, there is pretty much no obligation all around Australia for a doctor to be present for self-administration. The reason for that is to give individuals autonomy over their death, and over the time and place of their choosing. We in South Australia do touch base with what we call the individual’s contact person to understand if there have been any complications and to check in after the death. A large number of our patients, though, will seek out support from a voluntary assisted dying nurse navigator, who is often present in the house just as a support person. We do also have a lot of feedback from them as to any complications, but the doctor often, or a nurse, will come at a later time to declare life extinct.

The reasoning was that we did not think that there would be complications and we wanted to give people autonomy. We work on a permit system in a lot of jurisdictions in Australia, so people have a permit; they get given their substance and they can take their substance at a time of their choosing. They might have the substance in their house for weeks or months, potentially. Again, there is no obligation to follow through with taking that substance, which we also think is quite important. We know that in Australia, about 30% of patients who have a permit or who are approved for voluntary assisted dying actually decide that they do not want to consume the substance, but it is about giving them that choice and autonomy, and the strength to maybe pursue other lines of therapy.

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Seventh sitting)

Debate between Simon Opher and Naz Shah

Committee stage
Thursday 30th January 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Dr Opher]

I think that my question has been covered by my hon. Friend the Member for Bexleyheath and Crayford. I just wanted to be sure that we were secure if the doctor was not in the room, but that has been answered.

[Naz Shah]

Q My question is to Dr Richards. I will get to where I need to get to, so bear with me. You talk about this being a very explicit conversation, but I would argue that that is not entirely true. We are talking about a set of doctors who will have opted in to have that conversation; not all doctors will do that. We have also had evidence from people suggesting that doctors and lots of other people would leave hospice care if assisted death was provided on the NHS. Yesterday, we had care providers telling us that if people engaged in providing voluntary assisted death, they would leave those hospices. So it is not quite as explicit as what you are suggesting, is it?

Dr Richards: It would have to be. Those examples that you have just given would not mean that it was not an explicit conversation.