European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 (Exit Day) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2019

Simon Hoare Excerpts

Monday 20th May 2019 General Committees

[Simon Hoare (North Dorset) (Con)]

Sometimes it is quite hard to refer to people on our own side as honourable or right honourable Friends. For me, that is the case today. I am not going to name him, but I do curse the colleague who sent me an email to say, “Is there any chance you could sub on the statutory instrument this afternoon?” I actually had quite a quiet afternoon planned, and yet here I am—he will owe me a very large drink afterwards.

[Mr Francois]

Name him!

[Simon Hoare]

I am not going to name him, although I have to say, given the choice of topics on offer, I rather wish I were on the Floor of the House instead of here.

May I say this in answer to one point that my right hon. Friend the Member for Wantage has made? He has suggested one Bill that could come forward. Might I suggest that a Bill co-sponsored by my hon. Friend the Member for Stone and me would, given our surnames, not actually be incredibly helpful?

I think we should take some heart—in fact, quite a lot of heart—from the fact that my hon. Friend, and indeed friend, the Member for Braintree is the Minister who has put his name to this legislation. My hon. Friend campaigned on a different side from me in the referendum, but we are both democrats and, I believe, firmly rooted in a pragmatic tradition of politics, which is what is required. I agree with the Opposition Front-Bench spokesman, the hon. Member for Greenwich and Woolwich, that this is something that really should not be raising the temperature. It is a necessity; it is not a desirable necessity, but it is one that we had to face up to.

Like all of us in the House—well, increasingly I am beginning to doubt whether use of the word “all” is pertinent. I think that most of us in the House are, in essence, democrats who believe in living by the decision of the British people. We asked the British people for their decision back in June 2016. They arrived at a decision that I did not support but am pledged to deliver. I have taken the view—colleagues will take a different view—that the best way of delivering that is through the orderly mechanism of a deal, the content of which we can, of course, debate. That is just my view. I could be wrong and—I am picking at random—my right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham could be right that, in fact, it is immaterial and leaving without a deal will—

[Kate Hoey (Vauxhall) (Lab)]

The hon. Gentleman seems very confident about WTO terms not being the right thing. Does he think that the majority of the public, who now very clearly say that they would be happy with WTO terms, do not actually understand and that they should be asked to consider their position?

[Simon Hoare]

I am not entirely sure how, based on what I just said, the hon. Lady could have arrived at the statement that she made in that intervention. I did not speak with any degree of certainty; I merely said that, having looked at everything, I had come to a view. If she had listened to what I said—I say this to her respectfully—she would have heard me say that my right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham could be right. At the moment, nobody is entirely sure. We could both be wrong. The truth could be somewhere in between. Unlike some in this debate, I am not claiming any golden insight—some sort of crystal ball that I can gaze at and that allows me to predict with absolute certainty. I think that all of us, frankly, are trying to find our way in a chapter in our nation’s history for which there is no precedent and no other example to which we can turn. We are all trying to find our way. WTO might be the best thing since sliced bread, if sliced bread is your thing, but it might not be; I do not know. I do not think it is, which is why I have concluded on behalf of my constituents that we should leave with a deal. I do not claim the certainty that the hon. Lady suggests.

[Mr Francois]

My hon. Friend makes the very reasonable point that, in his opinion, no deal is not the best way forward, and we respect him for his honesty. However, does he accept that, in a ComRes poll at the weekend, 63% of the public said that they do think it is the best way forward—they want to leave as soon as possible, even with no deal? It might not be his view, but it is now the view of almost two thirds of the British public.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Chair]

You have got that on the record; do not over-milk it.

[Simon Hoare]

Of course the best opinion poll was the referendum itself. I take view that opinion polls come and go, and that the quality of the sausage that comes out of the machine is only as good as the material that is put in. However, the opinion poll we should all adhere to is that people want to leave the European Union. My hon. Friend and I can argue the bona fides of polls and pollsters up hill and down dale.

[The Chair]

That is not the order of the day.

[Simon Hoare]

That is not the order of the day. I remember seeing polls immediately before the 2017 general election predicting entirely—

[The Chair]

That is also not.

[The Chair]

Totally irrelevant. Let us get back to where we were.

[Simon Hoare]

On my right hon. Friend’s final point, I am entirely opposed to a people’s vote, a second referendum or a confirmatory vote. We said to the British people that this decision was final—it was not to be a neverendum—and we have to adhere to it.

I will make a sort of priggish point, for which I will doubtless be castigated by some. We know that the result of the Committee is effectively a foregone conclusion, but the vast majority of our constituents up and down the country do not. Whether people are filled with hope or despair about Brexit, and whether there are still some people who are ambivalent or uncertain about it, I think that a lot of our constituents are worried about the impact it might have on their ability to pay their rent, their mortgage and their gas bill, to put clothes on the backs of their children and to put food on the table to sustain their lives.

There will be many in this place and outwith who are comfortably insulated from any chill winds or economic downturns one way or the other; they will be fine come what may, and I wish them good luck and good fortune. However, not all our constituents are in that place. In north Dorset, the average annual take-home salary is £18,500, which is considerably sub-optimal and certainly below the national average. That is not unique for a rural south-west constituency; it is actually not unique for a rural constituency, come what may. If colleagues take offence at this or think I am being pompous or humbuggish or whatever, I apologise in advance. Everybody here—[Interruption.] I am not quite sure why my hon. Friend the Member for Stone laughs, but he does; he might just listen to the point before the sotto voce sedentary stuff starts.

The point I make is that our constituents want us to take this seriously, and I think we owe it to our constituents to take it seriously. This is not a debating society game. This is not a schoolboy or schoolgirl prank. We are talking about serious, grown-up political issues. I hope I am not the only one, certainly on this side of the Committee, who worries that anybody tuning in to watch the debate would not be entirely convinced that we are dealing with this most serious of national issues in a serious way.

[Dame Caroline Spelman (Meriden) (Con)]

On a serious note, 7,500 jobs have been lost in the largest employer in my constituency. My constituents watching these proceedings will want to know from all the hon. Gentlemen and the few hon. Ladies present that we take seriously the human cost of what we are discussing.

[Simon Hoare]

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend. I am not suggesting that we wander around in sackcloth and ashes, nor am I suggesting that we become Cromwell’s puritans. Of course there must be moments of light and shade in any of these debates.

[Mr Evans]

I take on board what my hon. Friend is saying. When I have chats with people in my constituency, whether they voted remain or leave, they say, “For goodness’ sake, get on with it.” It must be incredibly difficult for the public, 80% of whom voted for two parties—Labour and Conservative—that said they would deliver Brexit for the people but, even when they talked to one another, could not come to an agreement on how to deliver. Does he agree that it further alienates the people from their politicians? Normally it is the people who say they do not like the politicians and they want to change them; in this case it seems as though the politicians want to change the people.

[Simon Hoare]

My hon. Friend is a friend of long standing, and I could not agree with him more on that point. I do not suggest that my constituency is in any way unique or exceptional in sharing that view of, “Just get on with it.” One hears that from people who were devout leavers and devout remainers. I am not entirely sure whether opinion polls or anything else are teasing this out, but I think it is proving that the political class—we should not talk about the establishment, because we are all MPs, so we are part of the establishment whether we like it or not—seems at the moment to lack courage and gumption.

I think we are also proving something that has come as a shock to quite a lot of the electorate: there is nothing particularly special about being a Member of Parliament. There is no particular qualification that we have to have, apart from having more votes than the person who came second. We do not possess the inward-looking knowledge; we do not have some totemic thing that we can turn to and find answers to all the questions. We are all trying to find our way. Let us do it with a spirit of cordiality and, of course, with a sense of friendship, but in the interests of this place, our constituents and our country, we need to show that we are dealing with this in a serious, grown-up way.

[Sir William Cash]

I am slightly puzzled by my hon. Friend’s line of argument. Is he genuinely suggesting that my motion to annul these regulations is, in some way or another, not serious? I am sure he will understand that the arguments that he has not addressed, but that I addressed in my submissions—that this is an agreement that was imposed on the Prime Minister, that it was accepted, that there are questions of ultra vires and the rest of it—are not to be lightly dismissed. Under the rule of law, it is extremely important that we hold the Government to account. I am sure he was not implying that that is not a serious question.

[Simon Hoare]

Let me assure my hon. Friend that flippant is not an adjective I would ever apply to him. Let me make it clear, in case he has misconstrued my remarks, or I have allowed them to be misconstrued: the process we are going through today is entirely proper. Whether I agree with him or not, I take my hat off to him for his tenacity on these issues. At times when his line of argument was too easily dismissed by the political majority, he stuck to it through thick and thin. I do not seek in any way to undermine the robustness of the process. I was urging colleagues to deal, in perhaps a slightly less flippant way, with how we respond, conduct ourselves and debate the matter. The casual observer, whether they are popping in for a moment or two or switching on in between picking up the kids and getting the tea on, might think that this was an audition for “Carry on Up the Brexit”, and that would not be a good idea.