Local Government (Pay Accountability) Bill

Simon Hoare Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 22nd May 2024 Public Bill Committees

[Paul Bristow]

My hon. Friend makes an interesting point. As I said, the Bill requires the relevant authorities to gain approval by resolution before not just advertising but appointing a person for a role with an annual salary that exceeds £100,000. It will apply to those who are appointed, rather than just to the advertisement element. The Bill will create greater transparency so that people are able to see much more clearly the gap between those in a local authority who are paid the most and those who are paid the least. I think that will help all decision making when it comes to pay and guidance. It will also help trade unions with some of the things they need to do to ensure that their members get a fair deal when it comes to remuneration.

Clause 2 confirms the Bill’s territorial extent as England and Wales, with application in England only, and contains measures in respect of the Bill’s commencement and on transitional and savings provisions. The clause will come into force on the day on which the Bill receives Royal Assent, and it sets out the extent, commencement and short title of the Bill.

The amendment I have tabled will provide that resolutions held for the purposes of the Bill will not qualify as information exempt from public discourse. It will ensure that the Bill’s key objective, which is to increase transparency on senior pay in local government, is met. It will ensure that any votes on salaries are held in view of the public; that transparency is incredibly important. It will prevent relevant authorities from utilising the existing exemption rules to circumnavigate the transparency requirements for salary offers. Transparency is the principle of the Bill and what we are trying to achieve, because with greater transparency and greater accountability comes better decision making.

Ultimately, the Bill seeks to ensure that proper scrutiny and accountability is in place for salary offers for senior officials that are above £100,000 for relevant authorities, in respect of new appointments only, and that openness and transparency are adhered to across the board.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities (Simon Hoare)]

I am sure the Committee will be familiar with the dictum of Cecil Rhodes. He is often misquoted, but the direct quotation is:

“Remember that you are an Englishman, and have consequently won first prize in the lottery of life.”

As a Welshman, Mrs Harris, may I say that to serve under your chairmanship is to have won first prize in the lottery of life? If that does not get me some brownie points, I do not know what will. It is a pleasure to serve under my friend and colleague, Mrs Harris.

I am more than grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Peterborough for his leadership on this issue and for the work that he and his parliamentary staff have put in to furthering this important Bill. I am delighted to say that the Government support the Bill, as they support the amendment tabled by my hon. Friend, so I hope we can avoid a Division on that matter.

[Alexander Stafford]

I am glad that the Government support the Bill, but I am disappointed that they have not tabled an amendment in respect of fire authorities, to increase transparency. I am disappointed that fire authorities are exempted. Will the Minister touch on why they have been exempted and are not treated as the rest of local government is? We are all one, all local servants, and should be treated the same.

[Simon Hoare]

I think the Bill was narrow in scope for a reason—possibly for the reasons that I will touch on in a moment. My hon. Friend makes a strong point, in principle. One could argue for it under the dictum that what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. Of course, it is open to my hon. Friend and others to consider authoring amendments as the Bill progresses through this place and the other place. I will leave that to him.

Let me turn to what the Bill is about—actually, let me touch for a moment on what the Bill is not about, because I think that is almost as important to stress. This is not a Bill that says, as a matter of guiding-star principle, that in the local government sector being paid more than £100,000 is a bad thing. Anybody who works closely with their local councils—irrespective of tier, but particularly although not exclusively with the unitary and/or upper-tier authorities—will know that in many respects senior officers, who in the main are the people who would command that level of remuneration, are in effect running large divisions of a multi-facing business. If we are to expect high-quality public services delivered efficiently and robustly, local government of course needs to be able to attract the brightest and the best.

One could argue, from the point of view a public service ethos, that working for the public good is of itself remuneration enough. But that will not convince the gas board, the water company or the mortgage company: “I can’t pay you this month or this year, but I am working in local government, so there’s a lovely warm and fuzzy feeling around me. Please take that as payment in lieu.” The bills need to be paid.

This is not about castigation. It is not about asserting, as is sometimes erroneously trumpeted, “Oh, everybody is paid far too much in local government.” Far from it. All of us who work closely with local government—I have the privilege to do so as both a Member of Parliament and a Minister, and colleagues on the Committee will do so with their local officers—usually come away entirely impressed by the devotion to duty, the wisdom and the commitment to public service that officers bring.

[Naz Shah (Bradford West) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Harris. I thank the hon. Member for Peterborough for bringing this Bill to the House. I am not sure whether this has been touched on. As somebody from a black and minority ethnic background, I welcome increased transparency, because often people in the top tiers of Government, local authorities and organisations do not reflect the local communities they serve. The reason why I support the Bill is that I hope it will add that tier of transparency and accountability for appointments, so that they can be for the best and the brightest. Often, we get accused of nepotism or are told that it is about who knows who. The Bill puts in another tier, so I welcome it and I thank the hon. Member for it.

[Simon Hoare]

I am grateful for the hon. Lady’s observation. She makes the key point that local authorities always do well to take into consideration whether the elected members as well as the officers reflect the broad demographics and composition of their communities. I know the hon. Lady was not suggesting it—I interpret her remarks as saying what I believe to be true, which is that all appointments should be made on merit—but we are not talking here about quotas or positive discrimination. I think—I am sure the Committee would agree—that positive discrimination is actually as bad as negative discrimination. We need the best people doing the best job that they can. I take the point entirely that looking like, sounding like, and resembling the communities that are being served is an important consideration, but it should not be the be-all and end-all of things.

--- Later in debate ---

[Paul Bristow]

I am not sure I could be thanked any more, but there is always an opportunity for one more round of thanks if anyone wishes to do that.

[Simon Hoare]

I am a little hurt that nobody has thanked me.

[Paul Bristow]

I was just coming to that. I thank the Minister for his remarks, his advice and the skilful way he has managed this debate and responded to my speech.

I want to thank some of the senior officers at Peterborough City Council. The Minister was quite right when he said that there was not, in any way, a suggestion that senior officers in local government are not worth salaries of more than £100,000. Anyone who interprets the Bill in that way is being unhelpful. The officers at Peterborough City Council do an excellent job in the main. I particularly mention the chief executive Matthew Gladstone, and Adrian Chapman, another senior officer I deal with, along with Rob Hill and James Collingridge. They do fantastic work, and the excellent relationship I have with them as Peterborough’s Member of Parliament is testament to their professionalism. It has been six months since we had a Conservative majority in Peterborough—the council was previously run by the independents, and as of Monday is run by the Labour party—yet the openness and responsibility that I experience as the Conservative Member of Parliament show that it is not party political. The professionalism of those officials is to be admired and I thank them for everything they do.

I reiterate the point made by the hon. Member for Bradford West when she said that transparency allows for a diverse mix. It is absolutely right that we should seek to ensure that a council and its employees are representative of the community they represent. In diverse cities such as Peterborough and Bradford, that is particularly important. Allowing accountability and transparency—opening the windows and allowing air to come in—leads to better decision making and better spending of taxpayers’ money. That is something we should all seek to emulate in local and central Government. Transparency and accountability are key, and lead to better decision making when it comes to public service or the private sector. We have seen that in the House in recent scandals. When we have transparency and accountability of decision making, it leads to better government. I will now sit down, thanking everyone again for everything they have done. Let us hope that the Bill progresses further through the House.

Amendment 1 agreed to.

Clauses 1 and 2 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Bill, as amended, to be reported.