Food Banks (Wales)

Simon Hart Excerpts

Tuesday 12th February 2013 Westminster Hall

[Kevin Brennan]

Indeed. In a recent debate led by my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Wavertree (Luciana Berger), my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff South and Penarth (Stephen Doughty) mentioned that he had collected food for FareShare in Penarth. Many of the people being helped by the food bank were not the people one might expect, but people in work who were struggling to get by. The hon. Member for Monmouth (David T. C. Davies) has been keen to intervene; I note that a new food bank has opened up in Chepstow. I am sure that he will pay it a visit shortly, if he has not already done so.

In Wales, the rapid expansion of food banks is a subject that resonates and rankles. It is symptomatic of an approach by the Government that represents a shift away from the British belief in the importance of social security, founded by the three great Welsh pioneers and symbolised by the old-age pension, national insurance and the national health service, and its replacement with the alien American concept of welfare stigmatism—the demonisation of the poor and the replacement of the state’s responsibility with the vagaries of the charitable handout. The good society has been gazumped by the ill-named “big society”, in which well-meaning individuals try to patch the gaping holes created by austerity economics.

[Simon Hart (Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire) (Con)]

Would it be too much to ask, on such a serious issue, that we steer away from the notion that all this started in May 2010? A food bank in west Wales, of which I am a patron, started in 2000 under the Labour Government. It is keen to stress that the argument that the hon. Gentleman is pushing is misleading.

[Kevin Brennan]

I am sure that the hon. Gentleman was not accusing me of misleading the House, because you, Mrs Riordan, would have stamped on him if he had done so. My argument is not that food banks are bad things, or that their work is bad—it is not; it is good. What is wrong is the scale of the work that they have to do because of austerity economics and the rise in the cost of living, which are direct results of this Government’s policies. The Government made the ideological choice to follow an austerity economics policy—

[Simon Hart]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Kevin Brennan]

I am still speaking.

The Government are following an austerity economics policy, rather than making the economic choice, as they could have done, to deal with the deficit in a way that would not have led to such poor growth and its consequences.

--- Later in debate ---

[Kevin Brennan]

I will not make a projection, but I am sure the Minister will want to do so, because, of course, he should be very concerned about the impact of the Government’s changes. No doubt he has done a considerable amount of work on the issue raised by my hon. Friend, and he will perhaps say something about it when he winds up the debate.

[Simon Hart]

This is my second and last intervention. Will the hon. Gentleman express a view on a comment made by the 17-year-old food bank in west Wales?

“Statistics are misleading because it takes time to build up referrals and to be known about. The huge increase in recent years should not be taken as being the same thing as a huge increase in need.”

Those are not my comments; they are the comments of a food bank. Will the hon. Gentleman include them in the context of his argument?

[Kevin Brennan]

Obviously other people assess the need, and not the food bank itself—the vouchers are brought along to the food bank. I cannot comment on the hon. Gentleman’s local food bank, of which I am sure he has a better knowledge than I do; I can comment on my local food bank, however. I have heard stories from other hon. Members, and I have seen evidence from across the country. He is burying his head in the sand if he does not think that the vast expansion of food banks is happening because of the impact of austerity economics, welfare benefit changes and the cost of living.

We called this debate to set the record straight on the growing use of food banks in Wales and to highlight the cost of living crisis facing hundreds of thousands of Welsh families.

Finance Bill

Simon Hart Excerpts

Tuesday 3rd July 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Gauke]

Perhaps it will help the hon. Lady if I run through the situation. We have to raise a certain number of taxes, and VAT probably does less harm to the economy than almost any other tax that one could mention, whether it be employers’ national insurance contributions, which reduce the number of jobs, or corporation tax, which reduces investment. There is an issue with any tax.

On this particular policy, however, we are talking about a 5% rate on 80% of the price of a caravan, the other 20% being standard rated already, and on 85% of sales, the other 15% being standard rated already—or rather the purchaser being able to recover input taxes on it. There is then an elasticity of demand, and the 5% rate might result in a 5% reduction in demand, but of course that involves various assumptions and some uncertainty. As my hon. Friend the Member for Brigg and Goole (Andrew Percy) said, however, much of the industry does not think it will have a significant impact.

[Simon Hart (Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire) (Con)]

I wish to reinforce that point. The site operators, of which, as the Exchequer Secretary knows, there are many in south and west Wales, would also come to the same view—although not ideal, they thoroughly understand the situation and recognise it as one they can manage for the foreseeable future. They much welcome the news that it will not be revisited in the foreseeable future.

[Mr Gauke]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Tax is but one of the various factors that will have an impact on demand, and VAT is but one tax. I shall not dwell on it, Mr Speaker, but I should mention that the Government are putting in place a much more competitive corporation tax regime, which will be to the advantage of caravan manufacturers and many others.

I shall touch briefly on alterations to listed buildings. The reaction to our announced changes to VAT on approved alterations to listed buildings demonstrated the need for the measure on the grounds of simplification alone. The consultation and media coverage have highlighted the huge uncertainty over whether an item of building work is an alteration or a repair. The purpose of the measure is to avoid the need for such discussions by applying the same VAT liability to all alterations, repairs and maintenance. Repairs and maintenance to all buildings, including listed buildings, have always been liable to VAT, and alterations to non-listed buildings have been since 1984. The Budget announcement changes none of that, although a zero rate currently applies to alterations to protected buildings—mostly listed dwellings but also scheduled monuments and listed buildings used for charitable and other residential purposes.

For listed buildings, the borderline between alteration and repair or maintenance is a major source of confusion. The Budget announcement has no impact on the repair and maintenance of listed buildings, which have always been liable to VAT, so there will be no change to the VAT treatment of repairs to thatched roofs or steeples, contrary to what has been reported in the press. The Budget decision also reflects our view that grants can provide a more flexible mechanism than VAT for providing specific financial support for the heritage sector. We have increased the funding for the listed places of worship scheme and broadened its scope so that churches and other listed places of worship can claim grants to offset the impact of VAT on their alterations, repairs and maintenance.

The Budget proposal for alterations to listed buildings includes transitional arrangements, and, following the consultation, we have decided to make these more generous. As with the Budget proposal, the transitional arrangements will cover cases where written contracts had been entered into before Budget day 2012 or, in the case of the first grant of buildings that have been substantially reconstructed, where 10% of the work had been completed before Budget day. We have now agreed that they should also apply where listed building consent had been applied for before the Budget, and the transitional arrangements will be extended so that, where a project qualifies, zero rating can apply until 30 September 2015. These extensions will mean that the zero rate will continue to apply for most alteration projects where work was close to starting at the time of the Budget announcement.

Let me turn to the Budget proposal for self-storage.

Petrol and Diesel

Simon Hart Excerpts

Wednesday 23rd May 2012 Westminster Hall

[Robert Halfon]

I will give way to my hon. Friend the Member for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire (Simon Hart) and then I will carry on a bit more.

[Simon Hart (Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire) (Con)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that a hidden consequence of all this is to be found in the voluntary sector? People who do things such as meals on wheels and those who are voluntary carers—the pillars of our society—are beginning to wonder whether it is all worth while.

[Robert Halfon]

I am a passionate believer in the big society because it is about people power, social capital and helping social entrepreneurs, and the price of petrol and diesel stops people in their charitable work and harms communities. My hon. Friend makes a powerful point.

This month, Germany decided to initiate fuel price regulation and to limit price rises. Austria implemented similar measures last year, and the AA has noted their impact in keeping prices down.

Static Caravans (VAT)

Simon Hart Excerpts

Thursday 26th April 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Stuart]

My hon. Friend makes a powerful point, which I know will have been heard by Ministers.

[Simon Hart (Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire) (Con)]

Does my hon. Friend understand the sense of bemusement among more than 20 firms in Pembrokeshire and Carmarthenshire that were looking to the Budget for some form of stimulus but have ended up getting stifled? Will he put as much pressure as possible on the Treasury through his good offices to look at this issue again and to take the views of the House into account?

[Mr Stuart]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right.

Budget Leak Inquiry

Simon Hart Excerpts

Thursday 22nd March 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Gauke]

On the general point about leak inquiries, I have said what I have to say on that, but we have to bear in mind that identifying a property of more than £2 million, reaching a conclusion on negotiations and exchanging in the course of one morning is somewhat ambitious.

[Simon Hart (Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire) (Con)]

If the Minister is ever tempted to go down the route of a leak inquiry, will he at least commit to backdating it to 1997?

[Mr Gauke]

My hon. Friend makes an excellent point. Presumably, the Labour party would be very supportive of, and co-operative in, any such venture.

Rural Bank Closures

Simon Hart Excerpts

Tuesday 21st February 2012 Westminster Hall

[Roger Williams]

I believe that the Government have a role to play, and such a summit may be the way forward. We could also support trials of community banks in which a number of different banks come together to provide banking facilities, thereby cutting costs for individual banks but maintaining a facility for the community.

[Simon Hart (Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire) (Con)]

Should we not be a little careful about taking this issue out on the banks that are still in rural areas? We should be going after those banks that were first or second to leave an area, not those that have stuck it for as long as they have.

[Roger Williams]

My hon. Friend makes a good point, but the responsibility lies with all the banks. They have got to come together a find a way of addressing the problem.

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[Roger Williams]

I thank the hon. Gentleman, who raises an important point. Information provided to me indicates that two thirds of customers between the ages of 25 and 45 will use internet banking facilities, while only a third of people over 65 have the aptitude to take advantage of such opportunities.

[Simon Hart]

That is one issue, but does my hon. Friend agree that another is whether people have the broadband access in the first place to enable to make use of these things?

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[Paul Murphy (Torfaen) (Lab)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Brecon and Radnorshire (Roger Williams) on bringing this issue to the attention of the House. He has served his constituency with great sincerity for many years. When I was Welsh Secretary, he and I visited many parts of it, and I know he has raised this issue because he feels deeply about it, particularly as far as Presteigne is concerned.

I want to talk about another bank closure. Again, it involves HSBC, but this time it is in my constituency—in Blaenavon, in my valley. Blaenavon, a Welsh mining valley, has the characteristics of a rural area, in the sense that it is geographically isolated, its population is about 5,000 or 6,000, and it is part of the Brecon Beacons national park. It now has only one bank, HSBC, because the others have closed.

The decision to close the bank has caused enormous difficulty and distress among the people of Blaenavon. The town council and I have met the Assembly Member—Lynne Neagle—and bank officials. Hundreds of people attended a public meeting; it is very unusual these days for people to turn up to a public meeting to support banks, but these people did. There has also been a large petition. It therefore means a great deal to the people of Blaenavon that the bank is about to close.

The hon. Gentleman referred to HSBC as the world’s local bank; I was recently attracted by a newspaper headline, “HSBC banks on going deeper into rural areas”, until I discovered that the newspaper concerned was the Shanghai Daily. The article, which was from 2009, said:

“HSBC said…it has opened two more rural banks in China as it seeks to penetrate deeper into the rural financing industry in the country.”

It also said the bank

“is committed to bringing our global rural finance expertise into China’s countryside to help develop a sustainable model of finance and to contribute to the local economy”.

So HSBC is opening banks in China and closing them in Wales and the rest of the United Kingdom.

I understand the point made by the hon. Member for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire (Simon Hart), who said that it is perhaps hard to castigate the last bank remaining in a town. Nevertheless, when it has gone, the effect on local communities can be quite devastating because those communities often have lots of older people. In addition, local industry and small and medium-sized businesses rely on the banks. There is also the fact that communities are isolated and that many older people do not have their own transport. In Blaenavon’s case, there is the added issue that the town is a world heritage site, with lots of tourists from across the world coming to visit, but there is no longer a bank. The issue is therefore of great concern.

Today’s debate must concentrate not only on saying that the banks must be much more responsible in looking after rural areas, but on what can be done. The hon. Member for Brecon and Radnorshire made some suggestions, as have my hon. Friends. I want to make one or two points, which I hope the Minister and my hon. Friend the Member for Chesterfield (Toby Perkins), who speaks for the Opposition, will refer to when they wind up.

Clearly, the most important point is that if the bank goes, a cash point should remain, because it is hugely difficult to obtain money in a small town if the cash point disappears. If possible, there should also be some form of deposit facility so that people can deposit their money in a machine.

The issue of internet and telephone banking is also important. As the hon. Member for Brecon and Radnorshire said, however, the number of people over 65 who attempt to use such facilities is small. Clearly, there is a job of work to be done by the banks in trying, when they close, to train or teach their customers to use the telephone and internet banking facilities that many other people use. I pressed HSBC to hold seminars in Blaenavon to show people that.

[Simon Hart]

I am sorry to intervene so often. Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that we might want cash points that do not charge people to take their own money out—in other words, not LINK cash points, which cost about £2.50 every time someone sticks their card in?

[Paul Murphy]

Indeed. That is very important; particularly for older people, being charged to take out money is an extra burden.

The Post Office basic bank accounts are useful. People may be able to carry out their transactions through the post office. Credit unions, which were raised earlier, are also important. However, the sharing of facilities between banks needs to be explored. Another intriguing issue is mobile banking. In Ogmore Vale in south Wales, for example, HSBC and, I think, the Royal Bank of Scotland together initiated a mobile banking scheme for the area. It is like a mobile library, and it goes around villages and towns, providing facilities and the opportunity to use the banks.

It strikes me that the Government—both the United Kingdom Government and the Welsh Government—need to be able to come up with imaginative ideas. When it is known that the last bank in a town in a rural area is going to disappear, there should be some sort of action plan. Either the local authority or the Welsh or United Kingdom Government should be able to consider the alternatives for the town, and the possibilities that I have outlined. Often people’s fear is the worst thing. They need reassurance that some sort of facility can be provided in the community, through the exercise of more imagination.

My hon. Friend the Member for Harrow West (Mr Thomas) referred to a summit. That is an important suggestion; the representatives of banks and Government could sit round a table and perhaps come up with ideas for action plans for towns and large villages that are losing their banking facilities.

I congratulate the hon. Member for Brecon and Radnorshire once more on raising the issue, which is hugely important and affects all our constituents, crossing the party political boundaries of the House of Commons. I hope that the Minister will come up with ideas to alleviate the problems of our communities.

--- Later in debate ---

[Simon Hart (Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire) (Con)]

Like my hon. Friend the Member for Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies), I had not intended to contribute to this debate, but it has thrown up many useful points and I want to expand on just one of them: the notion of a summit on banking closures. I hope that the Minister might be able to respond favourably in that regard.

A number of hon. Members have mentioned the social impact of bank closures in their areas. However, as part of any banking summit, should we not go down the road that my hon. Friend has hinted at and contextualise the issue and consider the impact on rural communities of the closures of pubs, petrol stations—an issue that no one has mentioned so far, but that has a profound effect—post offices, as we have just heard, and schools, alongside the closure of banks and other services? I say that because in the past there was such a thing as the rural advocate. The Minister will be familiar with the rural advocate, whose job was to rural-proof Government decisions so that, where there might be a disproportionate impact on rural areas, that factor would be taken into account. I fully understand that there was a need to reorganise things, if I can put it that way, within the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, which I think was the Department that the rural advocate was responsible to, although they might even have been responsible to No. 10. However, that does not mean that the role that the rural advocate undertook is not as important today as it was in the past.

[Chris Ruane]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way, especially as I had babbled on for 10 minutes before him. Regarding the loss of those facilities—the pubs, schools, post offices, banks and petrol stations—within rural communities, does he think that there is an onus on those communities to accept more housing and not to lump all future housing developments in urban areas? I represent an urban area and a rural area, and as we look at housing development over the next 10 years, the feeling is that all the houses should go to the urban areas to preserve our rural areas. But each community should expect to have a 10% increase in housing, with social housing, so that there is mixed tenureship, and family housing, so that communities can keep the schools, pubs and post offices open, because people are living in them.

[Simon Hart]

The hon. Gentleman tempts me to engage in a debate about affordable housing and rural areas, and I am not sure that the Chairman would forgive us if we were to do so this late in the day. Perhaps we can have that conversation over a cup of tea after the debate, if he does not mind my putting it that way.

In an earlier intervention, I mentioned the irritation that I experience at being charged exorbitant sums to take my own money out of certain cash machines, but there is another element to the availability of cash that I did not refer to: cash-in as opposed to cash-out. The right hon. Member for Torfaen (Paul Murphy) may have mentioned this point already, but rural areas survive—survive a lot, in the case of my constituency of Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire—on tourism-related events and tourism-related industries, which often involve people who carry substantial amounts of cash. When there is a fundraising event in a local area, or indeed a busy weekend in general, the need to get any cash that is made into somewhere that is reasonably safe reasonably quickly goes to the heart of the social responsibility that the hon. Member for Vale of Clwyd (Chris Ruane) referred to. We must bear in mind that there is a proper need—not just a desire to be treated differently—to get that money into places where it is safe, as soon as it is possible to do so.

On the topic of a summit, as yet no one has mentioned the requirement for banks in the rural areas that we are talking about to address—again and again—lending. We all know, and indeed we have heard today, that there are very responsible staff and managers of local banks, but they have their hands, feet and everything else bound by central office lending guidelines. To me, it is one thing to debate the availability of banks on the high street for our rural communities, but let us also get those banks lending. I suspect that the guidelines for such lending no longer lie with the bank manager in Narberth, Whitland, St Clears or wherever it might be. I have here an e-mail from NatWest that is about the closure of the NatWest branch at Whitland in my area, but it comes kindly from the Royal Bank of Scotland at 280 Bishopsgate, which I suspect is where most of the decisions are made with regard to rural banking. Therefore, I say to the Minister that if we are to have a banking summit, let us also deal with lending to some of the small and medium-sized enterprises in rural areas.

I also want to talk about high street prosperity. We had a debate in the main Chamber the other day about the Portas report, the Government’s warm recognition of its recommendations and how we can regenerate one or two of our ailing high streets as a consequence of the advice that the Government has received from Mary Portas. Of course, within all that discussion, there is a need for a vibrant high street banking facility. Such a facility is one of the vital pieces of the economic jigsaw in our rural market towns, and no jigsaw works if a vital piece is missing. So we cannot accept the Portas report and then say, “But not banking.” We have to accept high street banking as part of that package, and as I have already said, I hope that—as part of the proposed banking summit or even perhaps as part of the Minister’s summing-up of this debate—reference can be made to that issue.

Sharing facilities was mentioned earlier by hon. Members from all parties, and it is an extremely helpful development. Mobile facilities have worked in one or two rural areas, as far as post offices are concerned. Having referred to the e-mail that I received from NatWest, I must say that NatWest has been helpful in our area by

“working closely with the Post Office to make changes to its IT systems to enable customers to use the Post Office branch network”,

as its e-mail sets out. That is a positive development in terms of shared working, which I commend NatWest bank for making.

Finally, my hon. Friend the Member for Suffolk Coastal (Dr Coffey) made the point about a possible investigation into rural bank closures by the Office of Fair Trading. It would be helpful if the Minister leaned in the direction of working with the Welsh Assembly Government—or the Welsh Government, as they now like to be called—with regard to making a proper team effort to address the impositions put upon rural communities as a consequence not only of bank closures but other closures of facilities. Rural communities do not want special treatment, but they want to be able to function on equal terms with the rest of the UK.

Fuel Prices

Simon Hart Excerpts

Tuesday 15th November 2011 Commons Chamber

[Rory Stewart (Penrith and The Border) (Con)]

I join so many colleagues in congratulating my hon. Friend the Member for Harlow (Robert Halfon) on securing this fantastic debate. It is such a great example of how the Back-Bench system should operate. On that note, I will try to keep my speech as short as possible, limiting it to less than two minutes in order to let others speak.

I wish to make one very simple point on behalf of Cumbria: rural isolation is not just a question of sparse population; it is also about the terrible hollowing out of rural areas over the past 15 years. When I look out of my window at home, I see the disappearance of a school, a shop and a police station. In the past 15 years, we have lost 2,200 schools, 550 clinics and 150 police stations—that is across the nation, not across Cumbria.

[Simon Hart (Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire) (Con)]

My hon. Friend will also be aware that 600 filling stations are closing every year, making the distance that rural inhabitants must travel to fill up their car even more demanding.

[Rory Stewart]

I thank my hon. Friend for making that point. The loss of pumps is an incredibly important issue, as is the loss of all the other services that are going such as pubs and shops. Currently, my neighbour, who has Parkinson’s disease, has to travel for two and a half hours to see a neurologist in Newcastle, and our schoolchildren are travelling further and further. There are things we can do to deal effectively with these problems, including with broadband and smart metering. It is a real disgrace that we have not sorted out smart metering. There is much better technology available. However, I should like to make a small plea for an extension, as rapidly as possible, of the 5p rebate that is currently offered in the highlands and islands to other sparsely populated areas of Britain.

GM Food Technologies

Simon Hart Excerpts

Tuesday 19th July 2011 Westminster Hall

[George Freeman (Mid Norfolk) (Con)]

Thank you for calling me to speak, Mr Betts. It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship this afternoon and to have this opportunity to talk about a subject that is of increasing importance, both to the globe and to this country, and that merits the very highest attention in this Parliament. It is the subject of our food science, agricultural research and in particular the potential of genetically modified food and other genetic and breeding technologies to support this very important sector. If I have time this afternoon, I will say why I believe it is such an important subject and why we should debate it now and in this Parliament.

However, I should start by declaring something of an interest. I come from a farming and agricultural background. I never actually worked in agriculture; that fate narrowly escaped me. Before coming to Parliament, I had a 15-year career in biomedical research in health care. Through that work, I have some experience of the genetic sciences and their potential to deliver good, albeit in the health care sector rather than in the food sector. I also have some experience of the very difficult ethical, moral and scientific issues that new technologies often throw up, and of the importance of Parliament being able to debate those issues properly, clearly, openly and well, and to build trust in an appropriate regulatory framework in order to build public support.

I declare an interest as someone who has worked in this sector and I draw Members’ attention to one or two shareholdings in one or two very small and unprofitable companies. I also declare something of a constituency interest. My constituency of Mid Norfolk is rural. That is not to say that everyone there works in agriculture, but it has a strong rural background and a strong agricultural heritage. We sit between Cambridge and Norwich. At the moment, my constituency is something of a rural backwater, located between those two phenomenal centres of science and technology. What is very striking to me as the local MP in an area where average annual incomes are £17,000, which is well below the national average, is the lack of public discussion about the potential of technologies that are developed in our area, particularly in Norwich at the Norwich Research Park. When I talk to people on the doorsteps about some of these technologies and their potential to do good around the world and in the UK, I am always struck by how surprised people are that we are not debating them and talking about them more openly.

I have also served as a non-executive director of Elsoms Seeds, a small, family-owned seed business, which does not actually have any involvement in GM but has a long and proud history of pioneering seed development in the agricultural sector. For a while, I served as an adviser to the Norwich Research Park. I mention that because, as many of my expert colleagues in the room know, it is something of a centre in UK food science, with the Institute of Food Research and the John Innes Centre next to the university of East Anglia and the Norfolk and Norwich University hospital, where work is continuing on a model gut. There is also some very pioneering work on nutrition and food science going on at the research park. Norwich is something of a centre of excellence globally in this sector and I am passionate about its potential to do good here in the UK, including in Norfolk, and across the world.

Why do I think that this technology has so much potential? The answer lies in a very important document, which I commend to all Members present if they have not already looked at it. It is the foresight report on food, written by the Government’s chief scientific adviser, Sir John Beddington, last year, and it was published—with the most beautiful timing—as we all arrived here in this new Parliament. It issues a clarion call to us all, including to this Parliament, about a global challenge. World population is set to rise to 9 billion during our lifetime, and in that time as a global society we have to produce twice as much food from half as much land with half the inputs, if we are to develop anything like a sustainable agricultural sector globally. I repeat—we have to produce twice as much food from half as much land with half as much pesticide, water and energy. That is a major challenge; it is one that Sir John and his committee have rightly received huge credit for addressing; and it is one that this Parliament needs to take very seriously.

Sir John in that report and many others since its publication have highlighted the importance of our using every tool at our disposal. I am not for a minute suggesting that GM is the magic bullet, or the only technology or even the most important technology to consider. However, as Sir John and his committee highlighted, it is one vital technology in the toolkit. And it seems to me that that global challenge of international development, of helping to lift people around the world out of poverty and of helping other countries around the world to go through a process of agricultural and industrial revolution—which took us nearly 200 years to go through—more quickly and more sustainably is a noble and important calling which we in Europe and the rest of the advanced western world, particularly here in Britain, should be drawn to.

We should be drawn to it not least because as we now find ourselves to be a small, wise, old, poor, public sector-dominated and debt-ridden economy that is looking for ways to drive growth around the world—not just growth for its own sake but growth that we can be proud of, that is fulfilling and that gives this country a sense of its self and its role in a world that is now dominated by bigger and faster-growing countries—it seems to me that drawing on our agricultural heritage and our science base in the life sciences, whether in medicine, food science or clean tech, and exporting that expertise and knowledge around the world to help the next generation of nations is something that we could all be proud of. It would be a part of a growth recovery that would have social benefits as well as economic benefits.

[Simon Hart (Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire) (Con)]

Does my hon. Friend share my view that this important debate is somewhat hampered by extremists who describe some of the practices to which he refers as a sort of “Frankenstein food”, generating fear and concern that freeze people into inaction when in fact we should be inspiring them into action?

[George Freeman]

I could not agree with my hon. Friend more. I mentioned my own experience in the biomedical sector, where I have come across that sort of extreme anti-science movement. I hope that in my moderate tones I have communicated the fact that I am not for one moment an extremist on either side. But I could not agree with my hon. Friend more.

Extremism is not helpful in the debate on this subject. In my medical experience, I have seen the extremism of the anti-animal experimentation groups. Nobody is in favour of animal experiments. However, there is an irony that I will share with everyone here today. I am setting up a company to develop predictive toxicology software, to reduce the need for animal experiments. In order to do that, one needs to consult with the people who know most about the animal experiments, to reduce the necessity of those experiments. In so doing, we triggered the attention of the animal extremists, who targeted the company. Of course, of the six people on the board, there was one female, who was the company secretary. Who do people think the extremists targeted? The lone female in her cottage at night. The cowardice—moral, intellectual and physical—of the extremists shocked me then and in this debate today I want to try to initiate an open debate and to invite a proper and open discussion of the issues. As I say, I could not agree more with my hon. Friend.

Fuel Prices and the Cost of Living

Simon Hart Excerpts

Wednesday 16th March 2011 Commons Chamber

[Andrew Percy]

I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. What we are both saying is that if any solution is applied to one part of the United Kingdom, it must be applied to other parts of it as well. If we are all about fairness, as I am sure we are, it must be a solution that is fair to everybody in the United Kingdom.

[Simon Hart (Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire) (Con)]

Does my hon. Friend share my concern for 1,000 dairy farmers in west Wales, who cannot pass on the additional fuel duty to their customers because their milk price is fixed by supermarkets?

[Andrew Percy]

Absolutely. I share that concern for dairy farmers throughout the United Kingdom. I am sure the Minister heard that and I hope he will respond.

My constituency is a logistics hub. We have many transportation firms. A business owner, Paul Emms, came to see me at my surgery in Epworth this weekend. He said that because of fuel prices, he now faces the possibility of laying people off. Rather than contributing tax to the economy, not only has he been stung by tax rises on fuel, but he is putting people out of work whose payroll taxes will be lost and who will have to be funded by the taxpayer through their benefits.

Fuel Prices

Simon Hart Excerpts

Tuesday 15th February 2011 Westminster Hall

[Simon Hart (Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire) (Con)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Miss McIntosh) on securing this important debate. I apologise to her, the Minister and yourself, Mr Turner, for possibly having to leave before the Minister has completed her wind-ups.

I shall try to bring together some of the comments made this morning by mentioning two examples from my constituency that illustrate the problem we have. The first issue is something we have not referred to this morning: the cost of domestic fuel for purposes other than simply driving. I thank my constituent Colin Keen for raising that matter. I shall give a quick example. Between Christmas eve and about the middle of January, people who were tied into domestic fuel contracts with a company called Flogas had a 46% increase in their fuel prices. That is an unsustainable and unjustifiable increase, which has a considerable indirect and direct effect on the rural community and the rural business network. It would be helpful for the Minister to address the problem experienced—at least in my part of the world—by a number of householders who are on large estates. They are tied into lengthy fuel contracts that they cannot reasonably or, in some cases, legally get out of. Their domestic fuel prices are apparently being adjusted without any reference being made to them and without them being able to do anything about it at all.

The second example I shall refer to is that of another constituent, Mr Barry Jones. He has studied local supermarkets and has pointed out that we are not necessarily getting a fair crack of the whip from them. He highlighted that Tesco in the rural town of Carmarthen is charging different prices from Tesco in the more urban setting of Llanelli down the road. There is up to 4p a litre difference. Tesco in Carmarthen argues that it is setting its prices in line with local suppliers. That is fundamentally untrue; it is not. It is setting its price at a rather different rate. I cannot help but think that such a situation is slightly ironic when I see a Tesco tanker with a slogan on it that reads: “Why pay more?” The answer is: because we have no choice. Perhaps we can address the grip that the five big supermarkets seem to have over every aspect of our lives, particularly in rural communities.

My hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton made a further point in her introductory comments about the overall inflationary effect of the issue on rural communities. What we are seeing—and what was being reported on the BBC this morning—is that there has been a much more profound increase in the price of things we need over and above the price of things we want. Fuel hikes have a very different downstream impact on the things we need compared with the things we occasionally want.

That brings me neatly to a further comment about the definition of rurality, which has been touched on in different ways by a number of hon. Members this morning. Several years ago, I tried to get a proper definition of rurality and, perhaps rashly, I asked the pollsters Ipsos MORI for one. It did not have a definition of rural and the people I asked simply said to me, “Well, it’s anything that isn’t urban.” If I may respectfully say so, that is a particularly unhelpful suggestion. Rurality comes in very different forms: isolated, very isolated, fairly isolated and, simply, rural. We need a clearer indication from the Minister and perhaps other interested bodies of what rurality and isolation really mean. I can foresee that some difficult choices and decisions will have to be taken and that they will be based on a line on a map that might mean everything to a bureaucrat, but that will mean absolutely nothing to those of us who live and breathe rurality every day. We might have constituents who fall the wrong side of a line and are prejudiced against—I accept that that might be unintentionally—as a consequence. That definition is important.

We have been told that up to 600 filling stations are closing every year, which means that people have to travel that much further to get their essential fuel. We are told that local authorities in certain parts of the country are cutting back on their rural bus services because of the increase in fuel prices and the downstream effect of that. However, we cannot lose sight of the direct and indirect effects of the issues discussed in this morning’s debate. The matter is affecting directly and indirectly pensioners, care workers, volunteers and hauliers. I can think of two hauliers in my constituency that are based in isolated rural areas so that they can be close to the ports of Pembroke dock and Fishguard. They are in an ideal location, but they can pretty well do nothing about fuel prices. They cannot even go over to Ireland—the Republic—and get a better price. Such price increases are playing havoc with their cash flow.

[Roger Williams]

The hon. Gentleman’s hauliers, like my hauliers, suffer competition from people who come over the channel with a full tank of fuel and carry out transport business. That is a great disadvantage to our hauliers, who have to pay the full amount applicable in this country.

[Simon Hart]

That is a good point. I think I recently read a coalition announcement that a surcharge might be applied to those foreign hauliers. It is worth remembering that hauliers cannot function without three things: vehicles, drivers and fuel. We cannot simply turn around and say that they have to address their overheads in the way we might do so with other businesses. They cannot function without those three vital ingredients.

I shall finish by touching on the big society—I think I have read about that in the news in the past 24 hours—and the social mobility that will come as a result of that. Every hon. Member who has spoken this morning has mentioned the effect of fuel prices, whether domestic or for vehicles, on their daily lives and on how they conduct their businesses. Every one of those observations could have been a direct reference to the big society. We cannot deliver the big society in rural Wales or rural Britain under the current conditions. There are people out there for whom the big society has been a part of their daily life for years, but it is becoming increasingly difficult to be champions of the big society because of fuel duty.

I am not high enough up the political food chain—nor, indeed, are other hon. Members here—to make these decisions, but they need to be made and, as an hon. Member said, they need to be made urgently. Whether it is a rebate, whether it is a stabiliser, whether it is a freeze on duty, or whether it is a combination of those things, the most pressing need for rural Britain if it is to be able to remain in business and deliver the big society is clarity and urgency. I hope that the Minister can address them both this morning.