Armed Forces Bill (Second sitting)

Sharon Hodgson Excerpts

Wednesday 31st March 2021 Public Bill Committees

[Mrs Sharon Hodgson (Washington and Sunderland West) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to follow my right hon. Friend the Member for North Durham. He is not only a fellow north-east MP, but a highly regarded Member of this House and an expert on these issues, having served not only as an armed forces Minister, but on every one of these Bills since he was elected in 2001. I am therefore very proud to serve on this Committee alongside him.

I rise to speak to new clause 15, which would mean the Secretary of State had to place a duty on all public services to ask new service users a question about whether the respondent is a veteran, has previously served in the armed forces or is a reservist. I know that some services do this already, but this new clause would ensure that all public services ask the question and record the answer. I will come on to reporting when we discuss new clause 14.

Since taking on the role of shadow Minister for Veterans last year, I have heard that veterans and reservists are, more often than not, not asked about their service history and may not feel that it is relevant to the service they are accessing. They could therefore access a public service without anyone ever knowing of their service history. While this may be fine on some occasions, on others it could be a huge barrier to a veteran or reservist receiving the services they really need. That is why the Opposition tabled new clause 15.

In written evidence, the Local Government Association recognised the challenge of identifying veterans in their communities, and went on to say:

“More information about the number of veterans in our communities would help councils better plan their local services to make sure we have the right services in place.”

This new clause would therefore ensure that the majority of veterans and reservists are captured by public services when they access one for the first time. This will, I hope, improve the experiences of veterans and reservists, and allow public services to tailor their offering to the veteran and reservist population in their local area.

I know that some people may not identify themselves as a veteran, perhaps thinking that that term refers to someone older or from one of the world wars or someone having seen active service, which is why the new clause includes asking if the person has previously served in the armed forces. I hope that the Minister will consider this new clause, which will help improve the experience of veterans and reservists when accessing public services for the first time and assist public services in tailoring their offer to the local population. As I mentioned, I will raise reporting when we come to new clause 14.

[Johnny Mercer]

I will address new clauses 7 and 15 together. I enjoyed the contributions.

There are some serious points here about the recognition of veterans—particularly our Northern Ireland veterans—which I have worked very hard on over the last couple of years. There is no tiered system of veterans. We are as proud of our Northern Ireland veterans as we are of those who served in Iraq and Afghanistan. Operation Banner was a deeply challenging environment. When I came to this House, I came here with a mandate to improve veterans’ care and the experiences of those who serve. There is perhaps no greater symptom of the betrayal of our veterans by Governments over the past 40 years than prosecuting or going after those who served in Northern Ireland when no new evidence exists and it is simply a question of the politics having changed. There is no other country in the world that endures these issues among its veteran population. The more people who speak on this matter and who become aware of it, the more that the individuals going through these processes will feel support.

The Prime Minister has made commitments to end this disgrace. I have made commitments to end this disgrace. Those commitments stand. It is an incredibly difficult environment and space in which to operate. At no stage have I just cast this matter off to the Northern Ireland Office, as has been alleged by my right hon. Friend the Member for North Durham. I work on this every day in the Department. Unlike my predecessors, I will achieve a result for those people who served in Northern Ireland. We will slowly make progress towards that.

Let me turn to the matter of welfare for those who supported on Op Banner. The creation of the Office for Veterans’ Affairs in 2019 is a marker of this Government’s commitment to her veterans. That never existed before; in previous Governments, under previous Ministers, there was never an Office for Veterans’ Affairs that took responsibility for these issues. We continue to demonstrate our commitment to supporting veterans and making the United Kingdom the best place in the world to be a veteran.

In the strategy for our veterans, the Government committed to improve the collection and analysis of data on veterans’ needs and experiences to inform future policy. I accept that we have poor data on veterans. If we had changed that—perhaps 10 years ago—we would be in a far better position now to calibrate programmes and understand the nuanced challenges in the transition from service life into the community. But we did not do that 10 years ago. We are doing it now. The first money that came into the Office for Veterans’ Affairs went into data and studies to try to understand the scale of the problem, so that we can implement evidence-based policies that genuinely affect and improve the lives of our veterans.

We are going to publish an annual veterans report, which will set out the progress made each year on delivering these objectives so that we can be held to account. As part of this data strategy that will improve collection and analysis of information across a wide range of topics—including veterans’ health and wellbeing; mental health; the frequency of the tragedy that is suicide; employment; housing; and relationships—we are working with stakeholders, other Departments and the devolved Administrations to understand what data already exists, where there are gaps in knowledge and how the gaps could be mitigated, including, where relevant, by adding new veteran markers to datasets. That is happening.

The 2021 census in England and Wales also represented a key opportunity. Using the expertise of the Office for National Statistics, we will be able to use anonymised data provided by the census to better understand the veteran population in England and Wales as a whole, and the huge range of topics affecting their lives, including their health and wellbeing.

New clause 15 seeks to

“place a duty on all public services to include a question on whether the respondent is a veteran, has previously served in the Armed Forces or is a reservist to all new service users.”

This would place an undue and unnecessary burden on public bodies. In keeping with the initial action plan of the January 2020 UK Government’s strategy for our veterans and the New Decade, New Approach agreement, my Department is currently conducting a review of welfare services provided to all veterans living in Northern Ireland.

The Ulster Defence Regiment and the Royal Irish Regiment (Home Service) Aftercare Service was established in 2007 to provide welfare support for Op Banner veterans and their families from within an established service delivery network. My Department recognises that the delivery of veterans’ welfare support in Northern Ireland has grown in a specific way. However, I can provide assurance that a review of the aftercare service has commenced and will establish the potential of the aftercare service to support better our veterans UK-wide in the welfare structure. For that reason, it is imperative that, before further commitments are made, the review is allowed to conclude and bring forward its recommendations on long-term service delivery for veterans in Northern Ireland.

To support our veterans living in Northern Ireland further, we have, for the first time, appointed a Northern Ireland Veterans Commissioner to act as an independent voice and point of contact to support and enhance outcomes for all veterans. I hope that, following those assurances, the right hon. Member for North Durham will agree not to press the new clause.

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[Stephen Morgan]

New clause 10, taken together with amendments 3 to 6, is designed to ensure that the Government fulfil their commitment to fully enshrine the armed forces covenant into law, and that it is delivered to all service personnel, veterans and their families. As I previously noted on amendments 3 to 6, the Bill as drafted attempts to absolve central Government of the responsibility to deliver the armed forces covenant. Instead, it places the burden on cash-strapped local authorities and other public bodies, and provides no new resources with which to deliver it.

The new clause would strengthen the duty of due regard. It would build a conscious commitment to all aspects of the covenant into the framework of Government public policy, and mandate Ministers to provide evidence of where they have done that. Serving personnel, veterans and their families access a great range of services from across Government Departments, local authorities and other public bodies, but the Royal British Legion has pointed out that policy areas in which members of the armed forces community experience difficulty are often ultimately the responsibility of national Government or based on national guidance provided to other delivery partners.

Placing the burden entirely on local authorities and other public bodies conveniently leaves out the responsibilities that the Government have to veterans in areas such as pensions, compensation and even social care, where central Government set the policy that is delivered by local authorities. It also means that serving personnel who rely on the MOD for most services are not currently included in scope. At the moment, the Bill does little to reinforce and support the welfare of those who are actively serving. After a year in which they have been bolstering our frontline efforts to tackle coronavirus, in addition to carrying out continued deployments overseas, nothing is more illustrative of the low ambition with which the Government have approached the Bill.

The operation of the new clause is similar to that of the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, which ensures that relevant new legislation and guidance pass a climate change litmus test. Why would we not require the same standards for our armed forces communities? The covenant contains laudable commitments that should be delivered to those who have served our country with courage and distinction, but for many in service communities it is a well-meaning but nebulous document that cannot be relied on to make any tangible difference to their day-to-day lives, as we have heard from witnesses and seen in successive reports. A practical example is the debate around priority care for veterans. That is guaranteed by the covenant, but as Cobseo pointed out in the armed forces covenant annual report, it is implemented in an inconsistent manner, and its ambiguity can cause problems on the ground.

We know that the statutory guidance that will give meaning to the legislation will not be published in full until Royal Assent. That means that politicians, service charities and, most importantly, service communities will not understand whether the Bill actually delivers until it has passed. Why are the Government happy to take that chance? The new clause is an antidote to the ambiguity and fragmentation of the current system of covenant delivery. It consciously builds the concept of “no disadvantage” into policy making across public bodies and offers an opportunity to give actionable meaning to the laudable but sometimes ambiguous commitments in the covenant. Taken together withother proposals, it will clarify the promises in the covenant and ensure that all aspects are deliverable in practice for service personnel, veterans and their families.

[Mrs Hodgson]

It is a pleasure to follow my right hon. Friend the Member for North Durham and my hon. Friend the Member for Portsmouth South. I rise to speak to new clause 14, which calls on the Government to record and then report the following: first, the number of veterans, or families of veterans, who have contacted the Office for Veterans’ Affairs or Veterans UK each year, with an overview of the most commonly mentioned reasons for that contact; secondly, the number of veterans who have applied for a veterans’ railcard, as well as the number of veterans who have applied to the civil service interview scheme, and the proportion who have been successful; thirdly, the number of veterans in the street homeless population; and, finally, the number of veterans who have died by suicide.

I know that the Minister is working on all those areas, but the reality is that without the data we cannot establish what more may need to be done. He is right to celebrate having the veterans’ question on the census for the first time. I look forward to seeing the data published as a result of that. He also often celebrates the veterans’ railcard and the civil service interview scheme, which is why we are keen to hear how they are doing. I have tabled some written questions to find out, and it looks like both are going really well.

New clause 14 relates to my previous speech on public services asking if someone is a veteran or reservist. Such a measure would improve services and help government—at a local and national level—to make policies to address shortfalls. For example, in July to September 2020, 460 households were reported as having additional support needs due to a member having served in the armed forces. But not all local authorities ask, or consistently record and report this data.

We have only a small insight into the number of veterans represented in the street homeless population in London. In 2019-20, 376 people seen sleeping rough in London were recorded as having served in the armed forces; 129 of them were UK nationals. That is an increase from 2018-19, when 322 people seen sleeping rough in London—115 of whom were UK nationals—were recorded as having served in the armed forces. But, again, not all rough sleepers are assessed on their armed forces history, so we cannot say for certain whether these trends reflect what is happening in the whole population of rough sleepers.

Similarly, we do not know the scale of veterans’ suicide. I know that this is a complex issue that the MOD is working on, alongside a further study by Professor Nav Kapur from the University of Manchester, who is looking into the causes of veteran suicide. However, if coroners were mandated to record the service history of the person who has died by suicide, we would be a step closer to understanding the scale of veteran suicide and whether being a veteran played any part in a suicide, as it is not always a contributing factor. New clause 14 seeks to measure the scale of the issue so that we can understand and address it.

I hope that the Minister will see merit in recording and reporting this data to better improve our understanding of veterans’ lives and the challenges they face, and therefore to improve the Government’s response to the issue.

[Johnny Mercer]

These new clauses, as I understand them, are linked by a desire to broaden the kinds of issues that the Government are required to report on annually to Parliament in respect of delivery against the armed forces covenant. I will take each new clause in turn and explain why the Government do not believe that proposed additional reporting obligations will work.

New clause 8 would require the armed forces covenant annual report to include comparative data on the terms and conditions of service personnel versus other public sector employees, and an assessment of whether service personnel experience financial disadvantage because of their service. I assure the right hon. Member for North Durham that the Government are committed to ensuring that the terms and conditions of service personnel remain attractive and competitive, and that service personnel do not face financial disadvantage.

The overall remuneration package for service personnel ensures that they are compensated for the additional costs of service life. Whether based in the UK or deployed overseas, service personnel receive additional pay enhancements that recognise the unique challenges of service life, and they are further rewarded with annual pay increments, recognising their development and commitment. On top of that, service personnel continue to be rewarded with one of the most generous non-contributory pension schemes in the country.

I recognise the importance of ensuring that terms and conditions are reviewed regularly. That is the role of the independent Armed Forces Pay Review Body, which we have talked about already this morning. It provides advice to the Prime Minister and the Secretary of State on the remuneration of service personnel, and its remit compels it to consider the need for armed forces pay to be broadly comparable with pay levels in civilian life. The Armed Forces Pay Review Body already submits an annual report on its work to the Prime Minister and the Secretary of State, who then present it to Parliament for the Government to respond to. The recommendations of the AFPRB have always been accepted by the Government. We therefore consider that the additional reporting requirement proposed by this new clause would not provide to Parliament any information that is not already received in the annual AFPRB report.

I move on to new clause 10. I interpret subsections (1) and (2) as requiring all public bodies, particularly Government Departments and Ministers, to have due regard to the principle of the covenant when making policy. If my interpretation is correct, I refer my right hon. Friend the Member for North Durham to answers that I have given elsewhere about extending the scope of the duty to include central Government Departments. Broadly, central Government are already held to account in our delivery of the covenant by the statutory requirement to report annually to Parliament on progress against the covenant. I reiterate that this will remain a legal obligation.

Clause 3 would appear to require the Secretary of State to report annually to Parliament on how other Government Departments have demonstrated due regard to the covenant principles when making policy. Quite apart from the fact that that would impose a disproportionately large administrative burden on Departments—especially the MOD in having to write such a report—the Government consider that the salient information required by Parliament to monitor Government Departments’ progress in delivering the covenant is already contained in the covenant annual report.

Finally, new clause 14 would require the covenant annual report to include new statistics on veterans in several areas, including the number of veterans contacting the Office for Veterans’ Affairs and Veterans UK each year. The Government absolutely recognise the importance of measuring the progress we are making in delivering support for veterans and remain committed to continuous improvement. In terms of both the number and quality of the metrics reported against annually in the covenant report to Parliament, the OVA is working across Government to develop a framework of measures to track progress against the outcomes set out in the strategy for our veterans. We already intend to publish an annual veterans report, setting out our progress in delivering against our objectives. We anticipate that that would also include statistics reflecting the key initiatives, such as the veterans railcard, which my hon. Friend the Member for Washington and Sunderland West mentioned.

In the light of our plans for an annual veterans report, the Government are of the view that these additional reporting requirements for the covenant and the report are not necessary. I hope that, following these assurances, Members will agree to withdraw, or will not press, their new clauses.

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[The Chair]

Sharon Hodgson, do you wish to move new clause 14?

[Mrs Hodgson]

I would like to move new clause 14 formally, Mr Sunderland. I listened intently to what the Minister said. With regard to both new clause 14 and new clause 15, I know that he says it would be an undue burden to ask this question and record this information, but I really think it is very important and useful, and I cannot see how collecting it would be anything other than a help, rather than a burden. I would therefore like to test the will of the Committee on this new clause.

New Clause 14

Statistics to be reported as part of the Armed Forces Covenant Report

“(1) The Armed Forces 2006 is amended as follows.

(2) Section 343A, after subsection (5) insert—

‘(5A) An armed forces covenant report must include the number of—

(a) veterans (or families of veterans) who have contacted the Office of Veteran Affairs or Veterans UK each year and an overview of the most commonly mentioned reasons for contact;

(b) veterans who have applied for a Veterans Railcard;

(c) veterans who have applied to the Civil Service Interviews Scheme, and the proportion of these who have been successful in a job offer;

(d) veterans in the street homeless population; and

(e) veterans who have died by suicide.’”—(Mrs Hodgson.)

This new clause, with NC15, will improve the Government’s collection and reporting of data on veterans in the Armed Forces Covenant Annual Report. It also places a duty on all public services to establish whether all new users are a veteran.

Brought up, and read the First time.

Question put, That the clause be read a Second time

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[The Chair]

I ask Sharon Hodgson to confirm whether she wishes to move new clause 15.

[Mrs Hodgson]

As with new clause 14, I really think that this duty would not be an undue burden on any of the authorities that would have to ask this question. It would definitely provide excellent information for measuring outcomes. Again, I would like to test the will of the Committee and push this new clause to a vote.

New Clause 15

Duty to report

“The Secretary of State to place a duty on all public services to include a question on whether the respondent is a veteran, has previously served in the Armed Forces or is a reservist to all new service users.”—(Mrs Hodgson.)

See explanatory statement for NC14.

Brought up, and read the First time.

Question put, That the clause be read a Second time.

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Schedules 2 to 5 agreed to.

[Mrs Hodgson]

On a point of order, Mr Sunderland. I place on the record my thanks to you for the excellent way in which you have chaired the Committee over the last few weeks. I also thank the Clerks for their guidance and expertise, which has been much needed at times, and their colleagues in the House who have made virtual line-by-line scrutiny happen successfully for the very first time. As I have said, we are the pioneers, and I hope that we will have made the virtual Committee experience easier for those who may come after us.

I thank the Minister for Defence People and Veterans for giving evidence to the Committee and putting the Government’s position on the record throughout. I also thank my Front-Bench colleague, my hon. Friend the Member for Portsmouth South, for his leadership on the Bill, and my hon. Friends the Members for Gower and for Liverpool, Walton for their support and work on the Committee. I especially thank my right hon. Friend the Member for North Durham for his unrivalled expertise, which has helped us to scrutinise the Bill properly.

I thank Government Members, who have been constructive throughout and made valuable contributions. I also thank Scottish National party Members for their excellent amendments and contributions throughout. I thank the staff in all of our offices, who have ensured that we have been fully briefed and prepared for the Bill, as well as the representatives of all the sector bodies, charities and lobby groups for their help in giving written and oral evidence as well as comprehensive briefings throughout.

We have somewhat raced through the Committee stage of the Bill. None the less, it has been very productive. I am sure we have laid the groundwork for our colleagues in the other place to pick up the Bill and improve it further. I hope that in later iterations the Government take on board the suggested amendments, some of which were excellent and would improve the Bill. I look forward to continuing our deliberations in the remaining stages in due course.

[The Chair]

Thank you very much indeed for those kind words. I echo all of them. If I may, I will add my own personal thanks to the Clerks, who have been fantastic in supporting me, the tech team and all Members. Thank you for making the Committee so successful.

That concludes our formal consideration of the Armed Forces Bill. The formal report to the House will not happen until the Committee has considered its special report, which will be done in private.

Bill to be reported, without amendment.