Small Businesses: Tax Reporting

Seema Kennedy Excerpts

Monday 25th January 2016 Westminster Hall

[Seema Kennedy (South Ribble) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Davies, and to follow the hon. Member for East Lothian (George Kerevan)—I made my maiden speech after he made his. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Hertsmere (Oliver Dowden) for raising this important issue. I have had representations about it from many constituents. As somebody who has run a small business, I am happy to take part in the debate. I draw Members’ attention to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests.

The “Fixing the foundations” report by my right hon. Friends the Chancellor and the Business Secretary, which came out last July, focused on creating an even more competitive tax system. The aim is to cut corporation tax to make sure that we have the lowest rate in the G20 and attract inward investment, as well as to make paying tax simpler. The aim is that that

“will dramatically cut the cost of paying tax for business.”

As we all know, a record number of people—millions more of our constituents—are now self-employed and running small businesses. It is a generational shift, and this growing phenomenon will have an impact on many of our constituents.

As other hon. Members have said, the direction of travel—going digital—is laudable, and if the proposed system is properly implemented, it will increase the tax take, which is of course to be applauded. However, the stated aim is simplification, not only for the Revenue but for business, so I tentatively suggest that the Minister does not rush to make any changes. It is better that the switch takes places slightly later, but with fewer glitches. That would increase buy-in from the business community and reduce the frustration for constituents who are involved in making these quarterly reports—however we want to describe them. There are few more frustrating activities for small businesses, particularly sole traders without admin support, than being kept hanging on HMRC’s helpline.

[Dr Rupa Huq (Ealing Central and Acton) (Lab)]

The hon. Lady’s point reminds me of a comment made by Richard Morse, the FSB’s representative in my area, who said that HMRC did not seem to realise that a lot of businesses in my constituency were sole traders and that the person doing the accounts—there is no separate accounts department—was also generating the business and doing the work. He fears that the proposed system will eat into profits and lead to less taxable income, and I hope the consultation can address his fears.

[Seema Kennedy]

The FSB has made submissions, and it will carry on doing so. Ministers will also be listening to all our representations, which is why it is important that we are here to speak on behalf of our constituents. I welcome HMRC’s commitment to make more use of digital help, such as webinars, webchat and YouTube videos, and I hope it will increase the use of those.

I am sure that the consultation went through this, but I have concerns about when tax would be payable and when penalties would be incurred. I understand that three months does not seem like a very long time, but a four-week or six-week penalty period could pass quickly for a sole trader in busy periods, such as the summer if they are involved in seasonal business. Will the Minister address that point?

My hon. Friend the Member for Morecambe and Lunesdale (David Morris) referred to test runs. Perhaps I missed this information, but I would like to know exactly who did those test runs and over what period. It is essential that the tests are done over an extensive period, with different sizes of business, so that glitches are eliminated and the system runs really well when it is in place.

I have a particular concern about adjustments for capital allowances. I am thinking particularly of my own business, which is in the building trade, as we have had to make large capital investments in the following year, and there are also issues such as amortisation. I know that the impact on working capital came up in the digital consultation carried out by the Petitions Committee.

In conclusion, the move to digital taxation is the right direction of travel if we are to meet business challenges of the 21st century, but it needs to be done after a thorough consultation, of which this debate is only one part, even if that means the current timescales are missed by a few months.

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[Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP)]

Unlike some hon. Members who have spoken, I have difficulties with the concept of digitising tax returns. I have some experience from when Northern Ireland introduced digitisation and a need for internet access for planning applications and a whole range of civil service functions. Anyone who looks at the Government’s record, regardless of which Department is involved, will see that none of this ever goes smoothly and that the initial costs never turn out to be as low as predicted. The process of moving towards the objective is never smooth and, inevitably, many of those affected find it hugely frustrating. Sometimes the ironing-out period is short, but it can often last for a long time.

As hon. Members have pointed out, the issue of tax returns is not just a cause of frustration as, in some instances, it can be a matter of whether a business survives. Although the Minister has outlined some of the benefits and the reductions in administrative costs, we therefore have to ask ourselves whether we are sure that the transition period will not be so disruptive that it has an impact on many of the businesses in the United Kingdom that the Government are keen to expand.

One of the fastest-growing sectors of the economy in my constituency is people moving into self-employment—they are encouraged to do so. However, it would be detrimental to push those people into a situation in which it is difficult for them to do business because the Government have made it hard for them to carry out one of the most basic things—their tax transactions. The Government will undertake a consultation, and they have the 2020 deadline and so on, but we underestimate the trauma that some people might experience along the way because these things never work out easily.

I have read through the missive that the Minister has sent us all to sell this wonderful idea and, like others, I am still not clear what the Government are trying to achieve. The document cites headline figures, and says that the change will cut administrative costs and make things easier, and that people

“will be required to keep track of their tax affairs digitally”—

that is the kind of language that is used. It says that people will not have to

“wait until the end of the year, or even longer, before knowing where they stand with their taxes”

and that

“updates will be generated from existing digital business records”.

As some Members have asked, what does that actually mean for a business? Will a business know exactly how much tax it is due to pay every quarter? Will it pay that tax every quarter? Will the digitised records simply be a reflection of the information that is already gathered? Will they need to reflect the information that would be required at the end of the year? If so, that is radically different from simply saying, “Give us a lot of data about your business.”

There is significant work involved in getting some end-of-year records that businesses submit in their annual tax return. Those records might cover stock taking, work in progress, accruals, bad debts and one-off payments. Will all those things be required for every quarterly return? Is that what is meant by

“updates will be generated from existing digital business records”?

If that is the case, there is absolutely no way that the Government can argue that generating the accounts will not involve substantial extra work for businesses. If there is a quarterly requirement to pay tax, will businesses find themselves overpaying tax at the beginning of the year and then having to get a rebate at the end if end-of-year adjustments have reduced the tax burden? What does that do to a business’s cash flow? What do the Government intend?

Once the records go in, presumably the data will be looked at. If that is the case, will queries be raised, or will the data simply be ignored? If we are going to ignore the data, why provide them? If we are not going to ignore the data, will there be queries from HMRC not at the end of the year, when one tax return would have gone in, but on a quarterly basis? That would, of course, create additional work for businesses. The change will play an important part in how businesses generate the information. If it is simply a case of passing on digitally-generated information, will the process involve more or less information than a business would usually gather during the year?

[Seema Kennedy]

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the transition will be complicated for businesses that are paid in cash and with cheques, as well as online? I am thinking of a self-employed hairdresser, for example.

[Sammy Wilson]

That is exactly the kind of question that any reasonable business would want answered when deciding whether the change is good or bad. It is easy to hide everything behind a term such as “quarterly, digitally-gathered business records” but the detail, as the hon. Lady says, is significant for businesses.

If the information is to be looked at in detail, that will affect how businesses go about collecting and verifying it. Most businesses do not want to make mistakes. They are not all treated—unfortunately, Minister—like the Googles of this world. Many businesses fear HMRC—they fear the taxman. They are afraid of making a mistake and of that being interpreted as them somehow trying to pull the wool over people’s eyes. Inevitably, instead of one visit to the accountant or auditor, there will be three or four visits. I do not think that this is just speculation, because one only has to look at what happened when VAT filing started. That was sold on the same kind of basis, because we were told, “You just fill in all the stuff,” but that was not what happened. People started going to accountants to get them to verify that they were sending in the proper information.

Will more queries be raised with businesses and will more time be tied up dealing with those queries? As businesses see the quarterly returns as something of great significance that have an impact on the tax they pay and how that might be scrutinised, will they face more compliance costs due to their asking professionals to do their returns? Alternatively, as some Members have described it, is it simply that they will have all the information on one spreadsheet, and that they can click a button to send it to HMRC, with that being the end of it? I doubt very much that that is how businesses will regard this, and HMRC has already accepted that there will be set-up and hardware costs.

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[Seema Kennedy]

I understand the point that the hon. Gentleman is making, but although there might be an error in the input of records, surely if everything is done electronically, there will be fewer calculation errors at least, or so one would hope.

[Rob Marris]

I agree with the hon. Lady that that is the theory, but the fact is that input errors are likely to increase in number if more information is being inputted—not necessarily, but likely. She is absolutely right that that is the point at which errors, if there are any, will creep in—garbage in, garbage out, as the saying goes.

Another practicality mentioned today relates to remote areas. I hope that the Minister will say something about that, because I have seen some suggestion that things could be done on a smartphone. I am no techie, but the only ways in which I can see that being possible are on a phablet with a screen of about 7 inches in size, and there are not many of those around, or by people using their smartphone as a modem and submitting information over the mobile telephone network, rather than broadband cables. However, many remote areas do not have 4G, so in theory someone could be dumping the information through the smartphone, which is being used as a tether modem, although that seems unlikely because the speed will not be that great, so there is a problem.

Nevertheless, I support the general idea of getting stuff online to achieve greater efficiencies. We have to be careful about those who are unable to cope with the online stuff, for reasons of disability and so on, but contrary to what some Members have been saying, the Government—whether now, or in four years’ time when we in the Labour party are in government—must be careful about going along with everyone who will not engage online. Some people will not engage online even when they can, although it would be more efficient for them to do so and it is more expensive for the rest of us that they do not.

The way business is going—not every business, but an awful lot of them—if a small business does not engage online, the likelihood of it being successful decreases year by year, because of the digitalisation of the world. If an HMRC initiative encourages some small businesses to have more digitalisation than they would have done had the system not come in, that could be a good thing not only for them and how they run their businesses, but for how they interact with HMRC.

The hon. Member for South Ribble (Seema Kennedy) mentioned a hairdresser. A peripatetic hairdresser, for example, with his or her own car does not necessarily have to be online to run a successful hairdressing business. The way the world is going, however, that lack of a digital presence is likely to tell us against the hairdresser. Some hairdressers will now have an automated system to send a text message to tell the client, “Don’t forget, I’m coming round to give you a wash and shampoo tomorrow afternoon at 2.30.” That is fairly basic stuff, but it is using the digital to enhance business with fewer missed appointments and so on. That is how the world is going, so a nudge—to use one of the Government’s favourite words—from HMRC is not at all a bad thing, although we have to be sensitive about those who are unable to get online, for whatever reason, whether in terms of disability or their geographic presence, such as in a remote area.

We have all had our sob stories about running a small business. Years ago, I helped to run a small family business with a few employees, and later I worked for a large and successful firm with 1,000 employees. Before I first came to this place, I spent most of my working life in the private sector. The nudge then was to get computerised. In 1995, although I am not a techie, I was the first partner in my law firm to have a computer on my desk, because I kept saying, “The world’s getting more and more digital.” Now, 20 years later, except perhaps for reasons of disability, no lawyer in the land can be found without a computer on their desk. Any lawyer who did not have one 10 years ago probably went bust, because otherwise the job could not be done. Sometimes, we have to nudge things, and I nudged my partners on that.

Nevertheless, I suggest to the Government that any such nudge must be accompanied by simplification, as most recently referred to by the hon. Member for Livingston (Hannah Bardell). The Federation of Small Businesses states that, while it is “fully supportive” of HMRC’s “digital transformation”, it believes that that should be made “in parallel” with the simplification of tax policy. That is very important.

The Government, in their formal response to the petition, stated:

“Many taxpayers have told HMRC that they want more certainty over their tax bill”.

I can see that, although I am not sure that quarterly reporting will do it, because what bedevils business, small businesses in particular, is the complexity of the tax system.

The Minister and I have been talking about this on and off for about 10 years, so I appreciate that simplification is the holy grail. When the Chancellor was a shadow Treasury Minister, he used to bemoan the fact that under a Labour Government “Tolley’s Tax Guide” had gone up to 1,000 pages—but it is now in round terms 1,500 pages. As I have said before, however, I do not blame the Government or their predecessor coalition Government for that. Tax affairs are complex, because we have a lot of smart people in this country, who are innovative in financial services, and they find loopholes. Then the Government have to write a whole bunch of legislation to plug those loopholes, but that only keeps putting sticking plaster on sticking plaster.

For all the commendable efforts of John Whiting and the Office of Tax Simplification, the Government—true under Labour as well—have not engaged fully in tax simplification; it would be rough and ready and there would be less discretion and more apparent injustices, but there would be much more certainty, which the Government recognise all taxpayers, particularly small businesses, want.

The hon. Member for East Antrim referred to problems with computerisation. They are legion and there have been problems with the ancient online self-service system. Something that happened under the previous Labour Government and, incredibly, was made worse by the coalition Government was the single farm payment scheme for farmers. It was a disgrace under a Labour Government and that disgrace got worse under the coalition Government. Farmers were supposed to file their claims online for the single farm payment—its name has changed now, which is what all Governments do when they get into difficulties—in a so-called simplified system. What happened? The system collapsed for those who could not get into it. Farmers, because of the nature of their business—I think the hon. Member for High Peak (Andrew Bingham) referred to this—often live in remote places. They, too, might not even be able to use a phone as a tether modem because they do not have 4G.

The Opposition’s plea to the Minister is not to put the cart before the horse. The Government should get the system up and running before they start cutting back on the available assistance. I am not going into all the problems at HMRC, but they are legion, known about and much discussed. The Government are taking them on board and there has been a little improvement in recent months. That is long overdue, but it is good. The Minister should keep it up.

It is no secret that there are big problems in HMRC and the Government accept that, which is why HMRC is moving 3,000 more people to answer telephones and so on, but if the new system is not to involve quarterly tax returns—the Minister was commendably clear about that ex post facto, after hares started running and people started getting worried—there is a twofold problem. First—this was referred to by my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham East—will quarterly updates be a precursor to quarterly tax returns and a kind of PAYE for the self-employed and small businesses? Secondly, will there be short-termism, which affects very large companies now and bedevils British manufacturing? Footsie companies have to make quarterly reports and so on to the stock exchange, but if this system comes in, it has the potential to drive SMEs towards short-termism, and generally there has been cross-party consensus that that has not been good for our economy. It might have been good for a few arbitrageurs and people like that, but it is not good overall.

To finish, I ask the Minister where he thinks we are going beyond quarterly updates, if at all. What the Government said in their response to the petition was either contradictory or a harbinger of where they want to take this:

“At the March 2015 Budget the government committed to transform the tax system by introducing simple, secure and personalised digital tax accounts, removing the need for annual tax returns.”

So that we are all clear, I will repeat that last bit again:

“removing the need for annual tax returns.”

If that is what the Government are talking about in secure and personalised digital tax accounts, is that what they have in mind for businesses—to remove the need for annual tax returns? That may be a coherent policy, but I am not aware that they have announced it and it would be the kind of very big change to which my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham East referred. Will the Minister therefore say a little more about where he thinks the Government are, or are not, going with digitalisation?